Pilots overshoot destination by 150 miles

[fantom1979]

Didn't see this listed already. I guess it could have been much worse, they could have missed it by an hour or more, instead of just 14 minutes.

Two Northwest Airlines pilots who overshot their destination by 150 miles before turning back should have had numerous warnings as they approached and passed Minneapolis: cockpit displays, controllers trying repeatedly to reach, the city lights twinkling below.
Yet the pilots didn't discover their mistake until a flight attendant in the cabin contacted them by intercom, said a source close to the investigation who wasn't authorized to talk publicly and spoke on condition of anonymity. By that time, the plane was over Eau Claire, Wis., and the pilots had been out of communication with air traffic controllers for over an hour........

Pilots should have had warning of airport approach - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091023/ap_on_bi_ge/us_northwest_airport_overflown)

[M GO BLUE!!!]

They were talking about Soupy Sales!

[weegeebored]

The "official" story is that the pilots were arguing and lost track of things. Nice. But the real story is that they probably fell asleep. Even nicer.

I am glad that I don't fly.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

ping PilotMan

Yeah, I think someone forgot to wake up from their nap.

[miked]

Apparently they lost contact for over an hour, I wonder what they were arguing about so that they never even descended until they were 150 miles past the airport :)

[spleen1015]

They were probably having a threesome with a stewardess.

That sounds better anyway.

[JHandley]

Bah. I was gonna title my thread on this: "Are we there yet?"

They don't load up a whole lot more fuel than what's required to get to their destination. They're damn lucky they woke up before getting too far away from Minneapolis.

[Dr. Sak]

They were probably having a threesome with a stewardess.

That sounds better anyway.

One of two theories...#1 involves one thumb in the ass...#2 involves two getting stuck.

[Abe Sargent]

If they are overshooting their plane, I wonder what else they are....

[Passacaglia]

The "official" story is that the pilots were arguing and lost track of things. Nice. But the real story is that they probably fell asleep. Even nicer.

I am glad that I don't fly.

"As of Thursday, NTSB investigators had not yet examined the plane's cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder, which were being sent to Washington for analysis."

So...isn't this "heated argument" deal a really dumb lie? Unless the airline decides it's in their best interests to cover up the fact that both pilots were sleeping, I can't understand why they would do it.

[weegeebored]

...I can't understand why they would do it.Idiocy begets more idiocy?

[PilotMan]

Well it's certainly embarrassing for sure. The CVR won't lie. It's funny how they say Northwest Airlines, when it's really Delta. So this along with the 767 incident earlier this week in Atlanta are both events that you just shake your head at. It's really too bad. I am sure that all the pilots involved are going to lose their jobs, and don't worry, the company won't try and cover anything up. They can't it's out of their hands, and with the NTSB.

And yes, it's my guess that they were very likely sleeping. They didn't mean to of course. It's not like they sat up there and planned it.

With all the fatigue questions out there it just adds more fuel to the discussion.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Chuck Norris could have landed the plane, had sex with all the stewardesses & decapitated several persons on the wrong side of an airline safety procedure argument, all while taking a pleasant nap.

[RomaGoth]

It's funny how they say Northwest Airlines, when it's really Delta.

Aren't they really the same airline now, just with the original names?

[Mustang]

Chuck Norris could have landed the plane, had sex with all the stewardesses & decapitated several persons on the wrong side of an airline safety procedure argument, all while taking a pleasant nap.

Chuck Norris doesn't travel. He just pulls the location towards him.

[RomaGoth]

Steven Seagal could have landed the plane, had sex with all the stewardesses & decapitated several persons on the wrong side of an airline safety procedure argument, all while taking a pleasant nap.

Fixed

[PilotMan]

The NW brand will be gone by the end of the year. It will all be Delta, it's just a matter of FCC approval and getting all the planes painted.

[Lathum]

It's funny how they say Northwest Airlines, when it's really Delta. So this along with the 767 incident earlier this week in Atlanta are both events that you just shake your head at.

My wife is on a Delta flight right now :eek:

[RomaGoth]

My wife is on a Delta flight right now :eek:

At least they won't be painting her plane while she is flying, since they are keeping the Delta name and colors. :D

[BrianD]

I had a couple of friends that were on this flight. They were not pleased about the delay, but hadn't heard anything other than the heated argument line.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

My wife is on a Delta flight right now :eek:

Well, at least you know what to blame it on if her plan arrival is running late.

[cartman]

FlightAware > Northwest Airlines Inc. #188 > 21-Oct-2009 > KSAN-KMSP (http://flightaware.com/live/flight/NWA188/history/20091021/2135Z/KSAN/KMSP)

If you zoom in on the map, you can see the exact "Oh Shit!" moment where the pilots realized where they were.

[stevew]

LOFL

Oh shiiiii....

[PilotMan]

Remember that thing that you did when you were little and you got caught and you knew that there was no way out, and out and you were really going to pay for it?

That must have been on long, quiet flight back to MSP. It's the moment where you see your entire career and life, past and future flash before your eyes.

[PilotMan]

So the pilots are on the record as saying that there were not sleeping. So I ask you what's worse?

A pair of pilots who accidentally fell asleep? Or losing track of what you are getting paid to do, to the extent that you fly for at least an hour and totally forget what you are doing, where you are, what you need to do next?

My opinion is that the latter is far worse, and much more damaging from a professional point of view.

[Eaglesfan27]

I'm with you Pilotman. I think it would be much better to have fallen asleep than to being arguing so intensely that you didn't hear any of the crew, controllers, or realize on your own that you were way past your destination.

[Chubby]

They were probably having a threesome with a stewardess.



my money is on this with the latest comments

[Lathum]

And know they are going to get caught in a lie, which compounds the original problem.

[flere-imsaho]

So I ask you what's worse?

A pair of pilots who accidentally fell asleep? Or losing track of what you are getting paid to do, to the extent that you fly for at least an hour and totally forget what you are doing, where you are, what you need to do next?

The latter's worse. I assume there are automated systems in place to BEEP VERY LOUDLY should intervention actually be needed.

I'm also surprised that no passengers said anything as they passed the Twin Cities. Of course 150 miles isn't a lot, and could be taken as just settling into a holding pattern (from a passenger's point of view).

[PilotMan]

No big surprise here.... (http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/10/27/airliner.fly.by/index.html)

Or losing track of what you are getting paid to do, to the extent that you fly for at least an hour and totally forget what you are doing, where you are, what you need to do next?

Annnnnnd, I think I am right here too.

Now my biggest fear is that this one off, outlier event turns into some kind of referendum on airline pilots. Clearly, this isn't a widespread problem, we don't have planes overflying airports all the time. Let's not get the government involved to reinvent the whole process.

These are guys who have been doing their jobs for a combined 36 years and 31,000 flight hours (over 3.5 years of their lives combined), and neither one had any incidents, accidents or violations over that time. Here in this one event, their careers are over. No malpractice, no second option. Done.

That is aviation ladies and gentlemen. A lifetime of clean living and one event ends it all. Now, it was by their own hand, but how many careers out there is this even a remote possibility? I can't think of any offhand.

These guys just made all our jobs that much harder. It sucks. Do you have any idea how many times in the last few days I have had people say "you guys got enough sleep?" or "you don't have laptops do you?" or "We aren't going to overfly the airport today are we?"

I am so sick of being insulted in my place of work, and people think it's funny. People complain when I go to the front of security, they complain when I ride in the back and bring my bags on the plane (when I am working, I am allowed to bring everything on.)

Alright, I'm off my soapbox now. Shit like this just sucks.

[SnowMan]

Regionals up here have it so good. Our passengers actually appreciate us or they don't get home, unless they take a boat or a dogsled. We're all less than 60 seats, no TSA to bother us, no crazy backups at LAX to fight with. Just some silly weather now and then, but that's about it.

[RainMaker]

Now my biggest fear is that this one off, outlier event turns into some kind of referendum on airline pilots. Clearly, this isn't a widespread problem, we don't have planes overflying airports all the time. Let's not get the government involved to reinvent the whole process.
I don't think you have to worry about that. Planes rarely crash and you almost never hear of incidents on the news like this. I actually think the harsh actions from the FAA is a good thing. It shows the public that these actions are unacceptable. If the FAA had fumbled around on the issue and we heard all sorts of excuses for months that made it look like a cover-up, then you'd lose some confidence.

[Logan]

PilotMan, just out of curiosity, when that story came out about the pilot who either flew or showed up drunk (don't remember the exact details), did passengers make those kinds of sarcastic comments asking if you were sober?

I'm going to guess not, and people didn't make those jokes because lives were, or could have been, in danger, and this situation is more of a "wow those pilots were stupid, haha" kind of thing.

[molson]

I am so sick of being insulted in my place of work, and people think it's funny. People complain when I go to the front of security, they complain when I ride in the back and bring my bags on the plane (when I am working, I am allowed to bring everything on.)



Those people should be banned from flying.

Most of us know what a tough job it is. Douchebags are just better at drawing attention to themselves.

[PilotMan]

Actually I was just talking about this yesterday. Yes, it has happened that way. They ask or make jokes, however, we have a secret weapon, so you will remember to never do that again (unless you are dead serious) .

If someone does make a joke or question about that exact thing, then the captain has the option to suspend the flight and send the pilots out for alcohol testing. That's going to delay the flight a couple hours at least. The point being that the integrity of the crew has been brought in to question and if order to protect ourselves we have to take that seriously, and react accordingly. And of course, will make a PA to make sure everyone else knows why the flight is going to be leaving late.

[Mustang]

PilotMan, just out of curiosity, when that story came out about the pilot who either flew or showed up drunk (don't remember the exact details), did passengers make those kinds of sarcastic comments asking if you were sober?


I was on a flight once from Chicago to Milwaukee, waiting and they couldn't find the pilots. The people at the gate where 'joking' that they should go look in the bars for them. I hate flying in the first place and I didn't find it humorous and asked for them to provide alternate means to Milwaukee due to their 'jokes'. Which they did.

[molson]

Do we know what these pilots were doing on their laptops that was so darm distracting?

[Lathum]

Do we know what these pilots were doing on their laptops that was so darm distracting?

Pron

or WoW

[flere-imsaho]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/27/us/27plane.html?_r=1&scp=2&sq=pilots&st=cse

The pilots told the National Transportation Safety Board that they missed their destination because they had taken out their personal laptops in the cockpit, a violation of airline policy, so the first officer, Richard I. Cole, could tutor the captain, Timothy B. Cheney, in a new scheduling system put in place by Delta Air Lines, which acquired Northwest last fall.

[Passacaglia]

All these mergers are putting innocent lives at risk!!!!!!!

[molson]

It must be the most riveting sheduling system EVER!

[Chubby]

Actually I was just talking about this yesterday. Yes, it has happened that way. They ask or make jokes, however, we have a secret weapon, so you will remember to never do that again (unless you are dead serious) .

If someone does make a joke or question about that exact thing, then the captain has the option to suspend the flight and send the pilots out for alcohol testing. That's going to delay the flight a couple hours at least. The point being that the integrity of the crew has been brought in to question and if order to protect ourselves we have to take that seriously, and react accordingly. And of course, will make a PA to make sure everyone else knows why the flight is going to be leaving late.

Nothing like abusing your power because you can't take a joke.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Actually I was just talking about this yesterday. Yes, it has happened that way. They ask or make jokes, however, we have a secret weapon, so you will remember to never do that again (unless you are dead serious) .

If someone does make a joke or question about that exact thing, then the captain has the option to suspend the flight and send the pilots out for alcohol testing. That's going to delay the flight a couple hours at least. The point being that the integrity of the crew has been brought in to question and if order to protect ourselves we have to take that seriously, and react accordingly. And of course, will make a PA to make sure everyone else knows why the flight is going to be leaving late.

I'm sure that would go over well. Probably not the best move for job security given the state of economy and the economic situations of a number of airlines. Your call of course, I'm just saying it doesn't seem like something worth the rather obvious risk of making the big picture worse instead of better (and believe me, the media could have a field day with anyone who tried that purely trying to make a point or be a wiseass, and the follow up from paying customers wouldn't be nearly as pleasant as some jokes).

I was initially sympathetic to the situation you described but to be honest, how many professions don't have some jokes associated with them? Lawyers? Doctors? Car salesmen? Insurance salesmen? Pastors? Teachers? Traveling salesmen? Hell, the hottest thing going for media buyers the past couple of weeks has been a whack-a-mole style online game where you select a weapon and blow the heads off of media sales reps whose speech balloons feature all their favorite buzz words and catch phrases. And you're sensitive about some jokes? I'd say you ought to be happy that Adult Swim hasn't created an online distract-the-pilot-in-the-cockpit game ... yet.

Damn sorry but it sounds to me like you've got a little sand in a sensitive spot.

[Passacaglia]

I'm sure that would go over well. Probably not the best move for job security given the state of economy and the economic situations of a number of airlines. Your call of course, I'm just saying it doesn't seem like something worth the rather obvious risk of making the big picture worse instead of better (and believe me, the media could have a field day with anyone who tried that purely trying to make a point or be a wiseass, and the follow up from paying customers wouldn't be nearly as pleasant as some jokes).

I was initially sympathetic to the situation you described but to be honest, how many professions don't have some jokes associated with them? Lawyers? Doctors? Car salesmen? Insurance salesmen? Pastors? Teachers? Traveling salesmen? Hell, the hottest thing going for media buyers the past couple of weeks has been a whack-a-mole style online game where you select a weapon and blow the heads off of media sales reps whose speech balloons feature all their favorite buzz words and catch phrases. And you're sensitive about some jokes? I'd say you ought to be happy that Adult Swim hasn't created an online distract-the-pilot-in-the-cockpit game ... yet.

Damn sorry but it sounds to me like you've got a little sand in a sensitive spot.

Seriously. It's not like anyone handed you a job application. :)

[PilotMan]

Nothing like abusing your power because you can't take a joke.

Actually no, there is no humor in this industry at all. None. There are little protections in place if said person decides to follow through and actually make a complaint.

In fact our company policy dictates that if pilots are even suspected we have to. Now, when is it humor or not? That's a judgment call but certainly not one that I am willing to put my career on the line for.

It's more about following the letter of the law, that provides the most protection for my ability to feed my kids.

[PilotMan]

I'm sure that would go over well. Probably not the best move for job security given the state of economy and the economic situations of a number of airlines. Your call of course, I'm just saying it doesn't seem like something worth the rather obvious risk of making the big picture worse instead of better (and believe me, the media could have a field day with anyone who tried that purely trying to make a point or be a wiseass, and the follow up from paying customers wouldn't be nearly as pleasant as some jokes).

I was initially sympathetic to the situation you described but to be honest, how many professions don't have some jokes associated with them? Lawyers? Doctors? Car salesmen? Insurance salesmen? Pastors? Teachers? Traveling salesmen? Hell, the hottest thing going for media buyers the past couple of weeks has been a whack-a-mole style online game where you select a weapon and blow the heads off of media sales reps whose speech balloons feature all their favorite buzz words and catch phrases. And you're sensitive about some jokes? I'd say you ought to be happy that Adult Swim hasn't created an online distract-the-pilot-in-the-cockpit game ... yet.

Damn sorry but it sounds to me like you've got a little sand in a sensitive spot.

I hear what you are saying and joking about pilots outside work, as well as on tv and whatnot is fine. In fact, I think that MS Flight sim should put laptops in just for humorous fun, but that is one thing.

It's an entirely different story to joke when your life is in my hands. That's like walking up to your accountant and saying "embezzled much money lately?" Or Accusing him of cheating the IRS (in jest) after doing your taxes. What about asking your doctor just before surgury, "you won't fuck up will you?"

There is a time and place for everything. That is neither the time nor the place.

[JonInMiddleGA]

That's a judgment call but certainly not one that I am willing to put my career on the line for. It's more about following the letter of the law, that provides the most protection for my ability to feed my kids.

Like I said, that's your call. But I'd wager your job would end up at greater risk for pulling out that "weapon" as you referred to it than it would be for disregarding some jokes (even if it's a hundred jokes a day).

Let's be real here: the airline industry isn't one that's held in the highest regard by the public to start with, and in this economy the number of people who are going to be making any flights is lower than it's been in a long time, meaning there's even fewer people who care if you get your panties in a wad or not.

Any pilot (not you specifically nor even that you would do this) who power trips because they don't have a sense of humor or even if they can be perceived as doing so is asking to become a very specific target for something a lot less pleasant than some weak jokes. I can guarantee that the media would have a field day with a scenario like that & I'm extremely confident that the public would happily go along with them. Further, the power of the pilot's unions ain't what it used to be, so I'd at least be hesitant to expect them to expend much of their capital defending someone that a portion of the membership would ultimately perceive as making things worse instead of better.

But hey, it's your call, I'm just killing time before a conference call with some observations from the bleachers.

[PilotMan]

Gonna have to disagree with you Jon. Federal regulations would back the pilot as well as company policy and the union. It might suck, but I am sure that it has happened somewhere.

As far as union's go, even in this case, ALPA has to try and get the pilots back their jobs. May may not always be successful, and may not even want to, but by law, they are obligated to.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Like I said, that's your call. But I'd wager your job would end up at greater risk for pulling out that "weapon" as you referred to it than it would be for disregarding some jokes (even if it's a hundred jokes a day).

Let's be real here: the airline industry isn't one that's held in the highest regard by the public to start with, and in this economy the number of people who are going to be making any flights is lower than it's been in a long time, meaning there's even fewer people who care if you get your panties in a wad or not.

Any pilot (not you specifically nor even that you would do this) who power trips because they don't have a sense of humor or even if they can be perceived as doing so is asking to become a very specific target for something a lot less pleasant than some weak jokes. I can guarantee that the media would have a field day with a scenario like that & I'm extremely confident that the public would happily go along with them. Further, the power of the pilot's unions ain't what it used to be, so I'd at least be hesitant to expect them to expend much of their capital defending someone that a portion of the membership would ultimately perceive as making things worse instead of better.

But hey, it's your call, I'm just killing time before a conference call with some observations from the bleachers.

edit to add because you were replying while I was replying
It's an entirely different story to joke when your life is in my hands. That's like walking up to your accountant and saying "embezzled much money lately?" Or Accusing him of cheating the IRS (in jest) after doing your taxes. What about asking your doctor just before surgury, "you won't fuck up will you?"

I can almost guarantee that you don't mean that like it sounds. I would certainly hope that there's still enough professionalism left among pilots that their performance would not be impacted by anybody's jokes no matter how lame. After all, you've got your life in your hands too (unless there's parachutes up there I'm not familiar with), so that's not exactly any advantage for you. And FTR, I've made a similar joke to a surgeon who replied with a witty comeback of his own, so that probably doesn't apply here either. Come to think of it, I've cracked along similar lines with more than one tax accountant to, each one dealt with it no problem

As much as I advised against taking a punitive approach earlier, I MUCH more strongly & seriously suggest not EVER using that same line about "lives in hands" you used here in front of any passengers, at least not in that context. To be frank, it sounds like a threat to me & I'm sitting in the safety of my basement, not about to get on a plane with you.

[Logan]

Just wondering, are there extensive background checks performed on pilots?

[Chubby]

I must have missed all the arrests every time some teenager called a cop a pig...

[jeff061]

A cop can't literally be a pig. A pilot can literally be drunk. One of them is potentially a legal issue. The other is not.

Hoping that wasn't a serious analogy?

[PilotMan]

edit to add because you were replying while I was replying


I can almost guarantee that you don't mean that like it sounds. I would certainly hope that there's still enough professionalism left among pilots that their performance would not be impacted by anybody's jokes no matter how lame. After all, you've got your life in your hands too (unless there's parachutes up there I'm not familiar with), so that's not exactly any advantage for you. And FTR, I've made a similar joke to a surgeon who replied with a witty comeback of his own, so that probably doesn't apply here either. Come to think of it, I've cracked along similar lines with more than one tax accountant to, each one dealt with it no problem

As much as I advised against taking a punitive approach earlier, I MUCH more strongly & seriously suggest not EVER using that same line about "lives in hands" you used here in front of any passengers, at least not in that context. To be frank, it sounds like a threat to me & I'm sitting in the safety of my basement, not about to get on a plane with you.

I think that you are taking the whole thing the wrong way. Professionalism is exactly why I was upset in the first place. We take it as seriously as that. It isn't a threat at all. Neither was the first statement, but to accuse me of something that would be unprofessional is insulting to me.

Things have changed so much since 9/11. Just like the TSA has rules about joking because of 9/11, we have similar rules because of previous incidents. We are splitting hairs on this.

[PilotMan]

Just wondering, are there extensive background checks performed on pilots?

Yes, if you have a felony you cannot even work at an airport.

As far as pilots go, we are subjected to random drug tests as well as an FBI background check. Our work history has to be updated to 10 years. We also have to pass an annual or semi-annual physical. Certain illnesses can ground pilots, some for good. Mental illnesses are out of the question.

[Chubby]

I think that you are taking the whole thing the wrong way. Professionalism is exactly why I was upset in the first place. We take it as seriously as that. It isn't a threat at all. Neither was the first statement, but to accuse me of something that would be unprofessional is insulting to me.

Things have changed so much since 9/11. Just like the TSA has rules about joking because of 9/11, we have similar rules because of previous incidents. We are splitting hairs on this.

Yet to threatening to delay a flight because somebody yells "Hey pilot get out of the bar we're taking off soon" ISN'T unprofessional??? mmmmmkay

[jeff061]

Yet to threatening to delay a flight because somebody yells "Hey pilot get out of the bar we're taking off soon" ISN'T unprofessional??? mmmmmkay

It is if it turns out the pilot has been at the bar, they don't check it, there is an incident and that ignored accusation comes to light.

Better safe than sorry in this litigious society.

[PilotMan]

Yet to threatening to delay a flight because somebody yells "Hey pilot get out of the bar we're taking off soon" ISN'T unprofessional??? mmmmmkay

I can pretty much guarantee you that if someone did that to any pilot out there before getting on and if it was within an earshot of other passengers nobody would be going anywhere. It's just a fact. That is just the way the system is set up. We want to get where we are going just as badly as you do. Trust me, the amount of paperwork to go through isn't worth it. That's just the reality of the situation. Too many pilots have gotten caught, and that is precisely why it is taken seriously. Why take that chance?

[sabotai]

Yet to threatening to delay a flight because somebody yells "Hey pilot get out of the bar we're taking off soon" ISN'T unprofessional??? mmmmmkay

Well, considering that PilotMan said this earlier

In fact our company policy dictates that if pilots are even suspected we have to. Now, when is it humor or not? That's a judgment call but certainly not one that I am willing to put my career on the line for.

It sounds more like it'd be following company policy in that situation.

[Kodos]

To be fair, I think JiMG is more sensitive than 99% of the population to perceived threats. Not saying that to be mean. Just a conclusion I've drawn from posts on the forum. I didn't take anything PilotMan said in a remotely threatening way. He was just stating what he would have to do if there seemed to be a serious suggestion that one of the pilots was drunk.

[Chubby]

now hilarity would ensue when somebody yells something about a flight they aren't on just to get it delayed

[stevew]

good strategy move for the Amazing Race maybe.

[SnowMan]

I liken this to saying you have a bomb to the TSA guys. You know you don't, the TSA can pretty much assure that you don't, but what about everyone else standing around that heard you? You make some crack about the pilot smelling of booze or being drunk, and some crazy lady next to you is gonna freak out and write letters or whatever. Then the crew gets to dance on their boss's carpet. The reaction from pilots, and often companies, is to cover their asses.

Never underestimate the general population's stupidity once they walk through the airport doors. I swear there's some kind of IQ zapper built into them.

[JonInMiddleGA]

He was just stating what he would have to do if there seemed to be a serious suggestion that one of the pilots was drunk.

While raising the distinct possibility some pilot would take the same action if someone cracked wise on the subject, clearly not a "serious suggestion".

Also, going back to this quote & its subsequent mention later
In fact our company policy dictates that if pilots are even suspected we have to.

Then you'd never get off the ground, because I'd guarandamntee someone has some degree of suspicion about the flight readiness (whether alcohol related, sleep related, skill related, whatever) of the pilot every time a plane is boarded. So what seems to be the difference here is whether anyone verbalizes it or not. Maybe we are to the point of splitting hairs here, but the deeper this goes the more disturbing what I'm hearing/learning becomes.

Happily for everyone thought I'm in that number who hasn't been on a plane in a good while & not expecting to be on one anytime soon so the actual impact on either of us is pretty much nil beyond conversation.

[PilotMan]

While raising the distinct possibility some pilot would take the same action if someone cracked wise on the subject, clearly not a "serious suggestion".

Ill let my fellow pilot add this here:

I liken this to saying you have a bomb to the TSA guys. You know you don't, the TSA can pretty much assure that you don't, but what about everyone else standing around that heard you? You make some crack about the pilot smelling of booze or being drunk, and some crazy lady next to you is gonna freak out and write letters or whatever. Then the crew gets to dance on their boss's carpet. The reaction from pilots, and often companies, is to cover their asses.


Also, going back to this quote & its subsequent mention later


Then you'd never get off the ground, because I'd guarandamntee someone has some degree of suspicion about the flight readiness (whether alcohol related, sleep related, skill related, whatever) of the pilot every time a plane is boarded. So what seems to be the difference here is whether anyone verbalizes it or not. Maybe we are to the point of splitting hairs here, but the deeper this goes the more disturbing what I'm hearing/learning becomes.

You have every right not to fly on board the airplane if you are so concerned. If you have concerns that don't raise them, that is not my problem. Our entire business is predicated on everyone doing their job. Ramp, maintenance, ATC, fellow pilots, and so on. If someone has concerns that one facet of that operation isn't up to snuff the whole thing comes to a screeching halt.

You are on the verge of sounding like a conspiracy theorist about the whole process. Perhaps you are better off not having to deal with it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

If someone has concerns that one facet of that operation isn't up to snuff the whole thing comes to a screeching halt.

Do you honestly seriously believe that the general public doesn't have concerns about a variety of things when they fly? That we do so because there's some sort of uber level of confidence about the people involved on the operations end?

Well fuck me, I always figured it was because the convenience outweighed the risks, not because no one thought there were risks & legitimate concerns.

Look, full disclosure or whatever, there a pilot for one of the major carriers that's a pretty decent friend of mine. I'd trust him with my life in virtually all situations, not just flying a plane. Combat veteran, calm, cool, collected, etc etc etc. Him I trust -- I know him, what he's capable of, how he deals with stress, etc etc. Some random dude I don't know? Let's say that I find the notion of not being concerned (as opposed to balancing those concerns vs perceived benefits) as a completely foreign concept. And I really believe the only unusual thing about that is that I'm articulating those concerns here, not that they exist.

If you're wearing wings, I figure you've demonstrated technical proficiency in flying aircraft. I figure you've proven an ability to navigate the rapids of personnel change in the airline industry. I even figure that you're not a consistent major fuck up, otherwise you'd be an unfortunate statistic already. But that's different than me not having a degree of concern about whether you've had enough sleep, whether you've been drinking, whether your mind is focused on the task at hand vs some personal issue, etc.

You're not machined parts, you're human best I can figure. You're subject to the same shit that occurs in every other profession, the difference being that if you fail people can die, if a clerk on the register at Kroger fucks up I either get overcharged or undercharged. That's why I wonder about your deal (the "royal you", not "you you") and don't worry much about hers.

And we haven't even touched on the basic human nature that causes some people to respond to fear with humor, whistling past the graveyard so to speak. You can shut down every plane on earth with whatever administrative action you want, you still aren't going to eliminate that response, it's a coping mechanism & it's one that isn't particularly uncommon.

[Denial Of Freedom]

Look, full disclosure or whatever, there a pilot for one of the major carriers that's a pretty decent friend of mine. I'd trust him with my life in virtually all situations, not just flying a plane. Combat veteran, calm, cool, collected, etc etc etc. Him I trust -- I know him, what he's capable of, how he deals with stress, etc etc. Some random dude I don't know? Let's say that I find the notion of not being concerned (as opposed to balancing those concerns vs perceived benefits) as a completely foreign concept. And I really believe the only unusual thing about that is that I'm articulating those concerns here, not that they exist.


This to me just sticks out. While it is a random person, they are being compensated for their work, which tends to make it safer as they do not want to lose their job. Meanwhile your most probable alternative to flying is to drive somewhere. My question is would you rather trust someone getting paid to do something and that in almost all cases generally wants things to go safely or some random person on the road that could care less about your safety and causes you to be in an accident? I'm glad pilots can stop everything if need be to make things safe, I which we could control our primary method of transportation like this.

[PilotMan]

Do you honestly seriously believe that the general public doesn't have concerns about a variety of things when they fly? That we do so because there's some sort of uber level of confidence about the people involved on the operations end?

Well fuck me, I always figured it was because the convenience outweighed the risks, not because no one thought there were risks & legitimate concerns.

If you're wearing wings, I figure you've demonstrated technical proficiency in flying aircraft. I figure you've proven an ability to navigate the rapids of personnel change in the airline industry. I even figure that you're not a consistent major fuck up, otherwise you'd be an unfortunate statistic already. But that's different than me not having a degree of concern about whether you've had enough sleep, whether you've been drinking, whether your mind is focused on the task at hand vs some personal issue, etc.

So what should we do to put your mind at ease? I can't think of anything that would satisfy you. How do I know that the janitor at my kids school isn't a child predator that's never been caught. I should bring that up and go around accusing him until we really know for sure. After all, I have a degree of concern for the safety of my kids. Where does it end?

You're not machined parts, you're human best I can figure. You're subject to the same shit that occurs in every other profession, the difference being that if you fail people can die, if a clerk on the register at Kroger fucks up I either get overcharged or undercharged. That's why I wonder about your deal (the "royal you", not "you you") and don't worry much about hers.

And we haven't even touched on the basic human nature that causes some people to respond to fear with humor, whistling past the graveyard so to speak. You can shut down every plane on earth with whatever administrative action you want, you still aren't going to eliminate that response, it's a coping mechanism & it's one that isn't particularly uncommon.
So if I understand you correctly we are boiling this down to:

People are afraid to fly, but they are willing to do so for the convenience. They get on planes with fears and concerns for their safety, they sit quietly hoping that the ease of their mode of transport will get them where they need to go. That their pilot wont fuck up today or that they didn't just kiss their kids goodbye for the last time. That in order to address this overpowering fear they may resort to humor, which in turn will get them thrown off of said plane for their ill-timed prose.

We are, to the best of the training in this industry, like machined parts. We work on standards, precision, decision making. We strive for perfection, and we know the breadth and limits of our power, and abilities. We are humans, mistakes do get made, and when we make those mistakes sometimes people get hurt. And when we do make those mistakes, our livelyhood is in jeopardy. So again, we work to make those as few as possible. We have multiple saftey nets, checks, cross checks, and so on to aid us. You shouldn't need to worry about "us". We are there to make sure we all get where we are supposed to be going.

As humans we have obstacles to overcome. We need sleep, food, love, security. "Did that pilot get his lovin' last night? 'Cause if he didn't he may not be safe." But now you are opening an entire philosophical line of questions that I am not going to go into. That has more to do with Maslow and your individual issues than anything I can help with, perhaps EF27 can help. I only have a BS in Psych.