Official 2009-2010 MLB Offseason Thread

[dawgfan]

Gammon has annoyed me. The way he was a PR person for the Red Sox was tiresome and he seemed to have grown quite a hatred for the statistical community in recent years.

Despite that, the guy did a lot for baseball sportswriting (which could also be bad or good I guess).
+1

I have a lot of respect for Gammons as a baseball writer, but in recent years he's started to grate on me - too Boston-centric, and showing a bit of an attitude towards the sabermetric crowd (though in fairness he's also far more accepting of sabermetrics than many of his contemporaries...)

[lungs]

Randy Wolf to the Brewers, 3 years just under $30 million.

[molson]

Gammons is one of the few people in the sports media I believe. He's very well connected, and with that does come a necessary degree of not really going after certain players/teams - but that's never been his role anyway.

I mean, check out the college football threads. There's ridiculous amount of "done deal" reports that are nothing more than total lies. I think people forget after the fact, how wrong these "insiders" are, ALL the time.

[Galaril]

you'd rather holiday than bay?

i guess i haven't dug in and done enough research to know (to my shame), but is holiday an upgrade over bay, or just a bigger "name?". fine...5 minutes of research shows me that they're basically identical players offensively. give me whoever will come cheaper please.

I'd also like to see Gonzalez, but i don't think he's moving. price for Halladay is also too rich for me...concentrate on what you've got and a reclamation-project or three for short money (Ben Sheets?).

Having seen Holiday play a bunch on TV and about 15 games at the stadium in Denver Holiday is a great player and really all said and done would be a upgrade over Bay. I think we saw the best we could see from Bay who was playing for a contract. Holiday we saw the worst in Oakland a notorious hitters park. I think he would do well in Fenway and is a better fielder. But, it sounds like Epstein may just sit tight and not sign any of these guys but instead bring back Coco crisp to platoon with Jeremy Heredia. Sox fans should brace for 2006 all over again.
http://www.boston.com/sports/columnists/massarotti/2009/12/sox_have_been_here_said_that.html

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Doesn't look like there's a huge market for either of them, although it's hard to tell what's posturing and what isn't.

[DaddyTorgo]

Having seen Holiday play a bunch on TV and about 15 games at the stadium in Denver Holiday is a great player and really all said and done would be a upgrade over Bay. I think we saw the best we could see from Bay who was playing for a contract. Holiday we saw the worst in Oakland a notorious hitters park. I think he would do well in Fenway and is a better fielder. But, it sounds like Epstein may just sit tight and not sign any of these guys but instead bring back Coco crisp to platoon with Jeremy Heredia. Sox fans should brace for 2006 all over again.
Sox have been here, said that - Tony Massarotti sports blog - Boston.com (http://www.boston.com/sports/columnists/massarotti/2009/12/sox_have_been_here_said_that.html)

yeah...i saw that earlier. poopey. i don't think this franchise with its resources should ever be in a "bridge" year. particularly not a "bridge year" to guys who are in SINGLE A right now and we're still not sure if they'll pan out.

oh well, if that's the case at least i won't have to pay to go to the ballpark or spent a ton of time getting invested in the team.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Honestly, I'd rather they come up with a backup solution then overpay for something that's going to be a problem in a few years.

[DaddyTorgo]

Honestly, I'd rather they come up with a backup solution then overpay for something that's going to be a problem in a few years.

meaning what (and i ask that honestly)??

a backup-solution is fine, but if you as much as raise a white flag before the season starts and say "this is a bridge year...don't expect anything" then i dunno how you get fans excited. at least speaking for me personally i have enough else competing for my attention that if the team isn't going to be competitive and have the potential to go deep into the postseason then i would rather spend my time doing other things.

And if that somehow makes me a "fair weather fan" in somebody's eyes (not saying you Ronnie), then fuck you very much. I don't ask them to win the World Series every year or anything, just try. Just put in the effort. If they don't want to do that, then I don't think it's a horrible thing for me to say "I have other more rewarding ways to spend my time." It's a transaction - they try to win and I reward them with my $$ or my eyeballs. If they as an organization don't put forth a level of effort that I feel is commensurate with their stature and their financial weight, then I don't feel an obligation to pour my time down the figurative drain (162 games x 4 hours a game = a shitload of time).

[Galaril]

Honestly, I'd rather they come up with a backup solution then overpay for something that's going to be a problem in a few years.

I agree but there version of backup solutions are platooning with a pair of washed mid 30 outfileders in Hererdia and Crisp good god no. And their pitcher to add maybe Tim Harden:( Halladay I hate to say it will be wearing a Yankees uni for the next 5 years.

[JonInMiddleGA]

at least speaking for me personally i have enough else competing for my attention that if the team isn't going to be competitive and have the potential to go deep into the postseason then i would rather spend my time doing other things.

Considering they average a sell out at Fenway and they've still got the highest rated local TV of any team (and would still be the highest rated if they took another 7% drop) I'm going to take a shot in the dark here & guess they'll be okay with that ;)

[DaddyTorgo]

Considering they average a sell out at Fenway and they've still got the highest rated local TV of any team (and would still be the highest rated if they took another 7% drop) I'm going to take a shot in the dark here & guess they'll be okay with that ;)

I'm sure they would be. I'm just stating my position...and I think it's pretty understandable.

They also do need to be aware as an organization though that that's something they have to keep an eye on. The days of the 80's when they didn't sell out every game at Fenway and they weren't crazy-popular aren't so far gone that they are immune to them I wouldn't think.

NESN probably helps mitigate that a lot, but not entirely I wouldn't think.

[Galaril]

meaning what (and i ask that honestly)??

a backup-solution is fine, but if you as much as raise a white flag before the season starts and say "this is a bridge year...don't expect anything" then i dunno how you get fans excited. at least speaking for me personally i have enough else competing for my attention that if the team isn't going to be competitive and have the potential to go deep into the postseason then i would rather spend my time doing other things.

And if that somehow makes me a "fair weather fan" in somebody's eyes (not saying you Ronnie), then fuck you very much. I don't ask them to win the World Series every year or anything, just try. Just put in the effort. If they don't want to do that, then I don't think it's a horrible thing for me to say "I have other more rewarding ways to spend my time." It's a transaction - they try to win and I reward them with my $$ or my eyeballs. If they as an organization don't put forth a level of effort that I feel is commensurate with their stature and their financial weight, then I don't feel an obligation to pour my time down the figurative drain (162 games x 4 hours a game = a shitload of time).


Agreed. I am surprised they would tip their hand to the Yanks especially by letting them know help yourself we are ona diet at the serving line?

[dawgfan]

I'm a little disappointed to see that the Rangers are closing in on what looks like a very reasonable deal on Rich Harden ($7.5M) - not sure why the M's aren't the ones closing such a deal with him given a) need, b) Harden's ties to the area, and c) the entirely reasonable financial terms.

[JS19]

I'm a little disappointed to see that the Rangers are closing in on what looks like a very reasonable deal on Rich Harden ($7.5M) - not sure why the M's aren't the ones closing such a deal with him given a) need, b) Harden's ties to the area, and c) the entirely reasonable financial terms.


Makes sense considering they just dealt Millwood. I wish the Mets went after Harden, especially for this price. Guy is dominant when he stays healthy, I know that's a big if, but he's worth a shot.

[sterlingice]

Gammon has annoyed me. The way he was a PR person for the Red Sox was tiresome and he seemed to have grown quite a hatred for the statistical community in recent years.

Despite that, the guy did a lot for baseball sportswriting (which could also be bad or good I guess).

+2

As someone posted on Royals Review: "The funny thing is, this will have no appreciable effect on his life or his work. All he ever does is talk to and about the Yankees and the Red Sox anyway, so why not be rid of the (admittedly very thin) veneer of journalistic neutrality needed to work for ESPN?"

SI

[dawgfan]

Makes sense considering they just dealt Millwood. I wish the Mets went after Harden, especially for this price. Guy is dominant when he stays healthy, I know that's a big if, but he's worth a shot.
I think they dealt Millwood to clear room in the budget for Harden - at least that's what's been reported from some sites.

1 year at $7.5M is an entirely reasonable roll of the dice on a guy with Harden's ability. Yeah, he's a risk given his injury history, but that's not a lot of money, relatively speaking. I wonder how much of a buyout there is on the 2nd year option - seems highly one-sided if it's just the club option for $11.5M. Maybe there are a lot of incentives that can lock in a much higher 2nd year salary and come with an expensive buyout?

Given Harden's ties to the area, the advantages to his numbers of pitching in Safeco in front of our OF defense and the M's greater competitiveness potential than Texas, and I'm rather surprised Zduriencik wasn't the one to get him signed. I have to assume there are some unreported parts to the deal that Z wasn't comfortable with...

[Terps]

Millwood trade is pretty good for the O's. He'll give them 200 innings and take some of the load off the bullpen and the younger pitchers.

Getting him and cash for Ray is a steal, IMO... Even if Ray returns to form, which I doubt he will.

Now go bring Bedard back to Baltimore.

[BishopMVP]

Gammons has annoyed me. The way he was a PR person for the Red Sox was tiresome and he seemed to have grown quite a hatred for the statistical community in recent years.

Despite that, the guy did a lot for baseball sportswriting (which could also be bad or good I guess).I don't get the hate for Gammons. He clearly was the classier Red Sox version of Jon Heyman, but as long as you knew that he was entertaining to read and had very good sources. He might not have been as good as Joe Posnanski the last 5/10 years, but considering what he did to build up the industry he was still one of the better ones out there.yeah...i saw that earlier. poopey. i don't think this franchise with its resources should ever be in a "bridge" year. particularly not a "bridge year" to guys who are in SINGLE A right now and we're still not sure if they'll pan out.I didn't realize Reddick and Kalish were in SINGLE A (Westmoreland yes. Casey Kelly is overrated and I hope he is a centerpiece in a trade for Gonzalez, Fielder, or Hernandez). Theo, and effectively the Red Sox ownership, has said their goal is to realistically compete for the WS 8 out of 10 years every decade. Considering the dead weight we're carrying in Ortiz and Lowell and the lack of more than one true middle of the order power bat, we're likely at 1 of the 2 "rebuilding" years - where we'll probably still win 85+ games and compete for the WC at a minimum. Your solution is what... extend a long contract to Bay or Holliday so they can play the role of 2009 Mike Lowell in 3 years, send most of our best prospects for Halladay (who would then likely be extended and signal the departure of Beckett when his contract ends) and throw everything at this year while decreasing our chances the next 5? Sure I'd like to beat the Yankees every year, and I certainly don't want to go into a Marlins cycle of 4 terrible years for 1 shot at the WS, but we are 70-80 million dollars short of the Yankees on payroll and revenue. The only chance we have to match them on the field is by having 4-5 all-star caliber players being significantly underpaid in their pre-arb years (in 2007 it was Pedroia, Youkilis, Lester, Papelbon, to a lesser extent Ellsbury) to supplement the high-priced superstars (Ramirez, Ortiz, Beckett, Schilling). I agree they messed up by not overbidding 2-3m/y for Teixeira (how Duquette got Manny), but it doesn't change the fact that you need to surround those guys with multiple quality starters developed from within.I agree but there version of backup solutions are platooning with a pair of washed mid 30 outfileders in Hererdia and Crisp good god no. And their pitcher to add maybe Tim Harden:( Halladay I hate to say it will be wearing a Yankees uni for the next 5 years.Do you actually know who any of these players are? Crisp turned 30 last month, Hermida is 25, was a top 10 prospect 3 years ago and had an .870 OPS in a hitters park as a 23y/o. If we gave him a full season of at-bats there's a decent (15-20%?) chance he turns into a middle of the order bat that we got on the cheap - kind of like how we lucked into David Ortiz. Rich Harden, when (and that's a big if) healthy is a borderline Cy Young candidate. Considering we already have 2 #1's we're paying 12m+ (plus a potential #1 in Buchholz), signing Harden and hoping he's healthy for a full year is much, much smarter than trading for Halladay and giving him a big-money extension. If Halladay only wants a 5-year extension he'll be 38 at the end of it. I know he's a power pitcher and some of those guys can keep going strong until that age (especially if they, I mean their wife, take lots of steroids) but I'd think long and hard about giving him an 18m a year contract until then, let alone trading prospects for him.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Casey Kelly is overrated and I hope he is a centerpiece in a trade for Gonzalez, Fielder, or Hernandez).

In a completely non-snarky way I am interested in how you've developed this opinion.

[DaddyTorgo]

nah - i don't want Halladay for the price that the Jays are asking.

but holliday is 29 and bay is what...just turned 30? neither of them have the body of a david ortiz...both should presumably still be productive at the end of a 5 year deal (albeit likely overpaid, but that's the way it works with FA contracts). maybe they're looking ahead to next year's FA class - but in my mind that's always risky because you can never be certain who will resign between now and then.

not sure i see bucholz as a potential #1 anymore...jury is still very much out on him.

[DaddyTorgo]

INDIANAPOLIS -- The Boston Red Sox (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/clubhouse?team=bos) have reached a preliminary agreement to trade third baseman Mike Lowell (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=3972) to the Texas Rangers (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/clubhouse?team=tex) for catcher Max Ramirez (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=29162), sources told ESPN.

The Red Sox will pay $9 million of Lowell's $12 million salary. The trade was first reported by FoxSports.com.



Man, they must be REALLY high on this Ramirez guy! That or Theo was smoking something.

I'm all for moving Lowell, but eating $9mil of his $12m salary only saves you $3m plus you need to find a guy to play 3B (i'd say they want to move youk there and play VMart at 1B but they have told him he'll be the catcher I guess). All for a guy with a .217 average in 46 AB's.

[DaddyTorgo]

*sigh* Apparently the Sox interest in Beltre is "significant."

Lord save us all.

[DaddyTorgo]

hahah



<!--quotec-->The Twins designated right-hander Boof Bonser for assignment on Tuesday to make room for Carl Pavano on the 40-man roster. MLB.com (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20091208&content_id=7775362&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb)<!--QuoteEnd-->
<!--QuoteEEnd-->

Carl Pavano is the gift that keeps on giving. First he gets us Pedro. Then he gives up one run in a complete game win against the Yankees in the 2003 World Series. Then he gets the Yankees to pay him 40 million dollars for 26 mostly sucktacular starts. Finally, he nets the Red Sox the guy with the greatest porn name in the history of baseball. Awesome.

One could argue that no one person has been more valuable to the Red Sox than Carl Pavano over the past 12 years. He's cemented his place in Red Sox history as the most valuable ex-Red Sox ever. He's the Jimmy Carter of Red Sox history.

[lungs]

I guess I don't understand the love for Rich Harden in this thread and elsewhere. Don't get me wrong, I do realize he is very talented and has put up some decent numbers but some of the warts he has turn me off. I've argued in circles with some Brewer fans disgusted that we signed Randy Wolf over Rich Harden.

Basically, Harden is a reliever that people keep using as a starter. He is a two pitch pitcher these days after abandoning his slider to keep the stress on his arm down. His maximum effort repertoire leads to a fair amount of walks and a high amount of strikeouts which leads to high pitch counts early in games. He averages less than six innings per start so he'll tax your bullpen. Then throw in his injury history and I just don't get the love for this guy as a starter.

Soon enough, somebody will see the light and turn him into a reliever, a role I feel he could be very dominant in. Until then, he'll be a five inning starter that walks too many guys and you can't necessarily rely on every fifth day.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Max Ramirez was a pretty nice C prospect until his injury-plagued last year. Describing him as "a guy with a .217 average in 46 AB's" is not really painting the whole picture.

[Young Drachma]

In the old days of Diamond Notes, Gammons was a class act. Really informative and a journalist when that term has pretty much gone to waste. In recent years, he's become more of a celeb like most of ESPN, but...I think the guy has earned it after getting over what he did, his Hall of Fame credentials and so forth. We'll never see him now, but I'm sure when you've worked as hard as he has for a while, you deserve to go out on your terms...

He did good work for a good long while. But they weren't using him anything like they used to, because the medium has changed a lot even in the past decade.

As for the Halladay trade, I don't even want to think about it. I might just adopt his new team, especially if they're in the NL.

[molson]

Man, they must be REALLY high on this Ramirez guy! That or Theo was smoking something.

I'm all for moving Lowell, but eating $9mil of his $12m salary only saves you $3m plus you need to find a guy to play 3B (i'd say they want to move youk there and play VMart at 1B but they have told him he'll be the catcher I guess). All for a guy with a .217 average in 46 AB's.

Weird trade, but Lowell is pretty useless at this point. Everybody else obviously thinks so too.

Ramirez seems like he's a decent backup catcher prospect, and even he did more offensively than Varitek last year. I wonder if Varitek even makes the team at this point.

[DaddyTorgo]

Max Ramirez was a pretty nice C prospect until his injury-plagued last year. Describing him as "a guy with a .217 average in 46 AB's" is not really painting the whole picture.

fair enough. digging deeper it seems he was injured last year and had hit .299 through 1800 A and AA AB's. So maybe he was just rushed. Maybe he'll be useful...I dunno.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Just so everyone knows, Mike Jacobs was just released by the Royals. If you need a Rob Deer impersonator, he's your man.

[Dr. Sak]

Word is that the Phillies and the Angels are considered the frontrunners for Halladay. Phillies have offered Happ and one of two stud outfield prospects (Brown or Taylor). The Phils would probably have to get rid of Blanton in order to be able to fit Halladay (and his new contract) into the payroll.

[DaddyTorgo]

Halladay in the NL would be absolutely filthy. He might be able to rival Pedro's great-run here in Boston.

In fact, from a career longevity standpoint it's probably the best idea for him.

[Dr. Sak]

I just drool thinking of a rotation of Halladay, Lee, and Hamels.

[Galaril]

I don't get the hate for Gammons. He clearly was the classier Red Sox version of Jon Heyman, but as long as you knew that he was entertaining to read and had very good sources. He might not have been as good as Joe Posnanski the last 5/10 years, but considering what he did to build up the industry he was still one of the better ones out there.I didn't realize Reddick and Kalish were in SINGLE A (Westmoreland yes. Casey Kelly is overrated and I hope he is a centerpiece in a trade for Gonzalez, Fielder, or Hernandez). Theo, and effectively the Red Sox ownership, has said their goal is to realistically compete for the WS 8 out of 10 years every decade. Considering the dead weight we're carrying in Ortiz and Lowell and the lack of more than one true middle of the order power bat, we're likely at 1 of the 2 "rebuilding" years - where we'll probably still win 85+ games and compete for the WC at a minimum. Your solution is what... extend a long contract to Bay or Holliday so they can play the role of 2009 Mike Lowell in 3 years, send most of our best prospects for Halladay (who would then likely be extended and signal the departure of Beckett when his contract ends) and throw everything at this year while decreasing our chances the next 5? Sure I'd like to beat the Yankees every year, and I certainly don't want to go into a Marlins cycle of 4 terrible years for 1 shot at the WS, but we are 70-80 million dollars short of the Yankees on payroll and revenue. The only chance we have to match them on the field is by having 4-5 all-star caliber players being significantly underpaid in their pre-arb years (in 2007 it was Pedroia, Youkilis, Lester, Papelbon, to a lesser extent Ellsbury) to supplement the high-priced superstars (Ramirez, Ortiz, Beckett, Schilling). I agree they messed up by not overbidding 2-3m/y for Teixeira (how Duquette got Manny), but it doesn't change the fact that you need to surround those guys with multiple quality starters developed from within.Do you actually know who any of these players are? Crisp turned 30 last month, Hermida is 25, was a top 10 prospect 3 years ago and had an .870 OPS in a hitters park as a 23y/o. If we gave him a full season of at-bats there's a decent (15-20%?) chance he turns into a middle of the order bat that we got on the cheap - kind of like how we lucked into David Ortiz. Rich Harden, when (and that's a big if) healthy is a borderline Cy Young candidate. Considering we already have 2 #1's we're paying 12m+ (plus a potential #1 in Buchholz), signing Harden and hoping he's healthy for a full year is much, much smarter than trading for Halladay and giving him a big-money extension. If Halladay only wants a 5-year extension he'll be 38 at the end of it. I know he's a power pitcher and some of those guys can keep going strong until that age (especially if they, I mean their wife, take lots of steroids) but I'd think long and hard about giving him an 18m a year contract until then, let alone trading prospects for him.

Yeah thanks for the stats. I stand corrected on their ages. Coco plays like a 33 year old at times. Heredia is a high risk high reward guy and Crisp is well a guy that wasn't good enough to keep a few years ago what has changed. On the bright side when you finish up school you will have a great future as a VP with the Sox rationalizing all the weird transactions Epstein makes for the fan bases consumption.

[DaddyTorgo]

I just drool thinking of a rotation of Halladay, Lee, and Hamels.

fuck me that would be sweet

[Galaril]

Halladay in the NL would be absolutely filthy. He might be able to rival Pedro's great-run here in Boston.

In fact, from a career longevity standpoint it's probably the best idea for him.

Too true. He would Steve Carlton like out there. As long the f#$%ing Yankees don't get him.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Braves deal Rafael Soriano to Tampa for reliever Jesse Chavez. Atlanta had to find a trade for him after he unexpectedly accepted arbitration earlier in the week but had no role (and certainly not a $7m role) with the additions of Wagner & Saito.

Soriano traded to Rays for reliever Chavez *| ajc.com (http://www.ajc.com/sports/atlanta-braves/soriano-traded-to-rays-236297.html)

[RomaGoth]

Braves deal Rafael Soriano to Tampa for reliever Jesse Chavez. Atlanta had to find a trade for him after he unexpectedly accepted arbitration earlier in the week but had no role (and certainly not a $7m role) with the additions of Wagner & Saito.

Soriano traded to Rays for reliever Chavez *| ajc.com (http://www.ajc.com/sports/atlanta-braves/soriano-traded-to-rays-236297.html)

Isn't this Soriano's 4th team or something? I recall when he was quite a hot prospect...

[Chief Rum]

Too true. He would Steve Carlton like out there. As long the f#$%ing Yankees don't get him.

Heh...obviouisly, the Yankees are the Yankees, so your above statement is very true. That said, you wouldn't mind if he went to the Angels? ;)

FWIW, the deal being tossed around for him from the Angels (Joe Saunders, Erick Aybar, Peter Bourjos), while containing some pieces I would rather not see go, I would do that, especially if the Angels got clearance to work otu an extension with him first (not sure if that's in the cards).

They would have to figure out what to do at SS, though (or at 3B, if they start Wood at SS), and they would still need to get a fifth starter (or resign themselves to throwing a kid out there every fifth day).

[sterlingice]

(or resign themselves to throwing a kid out there every fifth day).

So, pretty much last year's plan? ;)

SI

[JS19]

I guess I don't understand the love for Rich Harden in this thread and elsewhere. Don't get me wrong, I do realize he is very talented and has put up some decent numbers but some of the warts he has turn me off. I've argued in circles with some Brewer fans disgusted that we signed Randy Wolf over Rich Harden.

Basically, Harden is a reliever that people keep using as a starter. He is a two pitch pitcher these days after abandoning his slider to keep the stress on his arm down. His maximum effort repertoire leads to a fair amount of walks and a high amount of strikeouts which leads to high pitch counts early in games. He averages less than six innings per start so he'll tax your bullpen. Then throw in his injury history and I just don't get the love for this guy as a starter.

Soon enough, somebody will see the light and turn him into a reliever, a role I feel he could be very dominant in. Until then, he'll be a five inning starter that walks too many guys and you can't necessarily rely on every fifth day.

Well put. I fall into the category of thinking Harden is a worthwhile candidate for a staff, I think it's just that with pitching at such a premium in MLB, it's hard to ignore the potential he brings to the table, especially at the relatively low price he is signing for.

[Galaril]

Heh...obviouisly, the Yankees are the Yankees, so your above statement is very true. That said, you wouldn't mind if he went to the Angels? ;)

FWIW, the deal being tossed around for him from the Angels (Joe Saunders, Erick Aybar, Peter Bourjos), while containing some pieces I would rather not see go, I would do that, especially if the Angels got clearance to work otu an extension with him first (not sure if that's in the cards).

They would have to figure out what to do at SS, though (or at 3B, if they start Wood at SS), and they would still need to get a fifth starter (or resign themselves to throwing a kid out there every fifth day).

No you guys can have em:)

[lungs]

Well put. I fall into the category of thinking Harden is a worthwhile candidate for a staff, I think it's just that with pitching at such a premium in MLB, it's hard to ignore the potential he brings to the table, especially at the relatively low price he is signing for.

Of course I've been looking at Harden through Brewers lenses. The Brewers had one of the worst starting staffs in the league last year, if not the worst. I thought signing a guy like Randy Wolf was much preferred to signing a guy like Harden. Wolf won't put up dazzling numbers like Harden has the potential to do, but at the same time Wolf is no slouch.

I've considered myself a stats guy for a long time but people keep throwing me these projections that Wolf and Harden will end up with the same WAR even though Harden projects to throw a lot less innings than Wolf because Harden's work will be higher quality. But I keep throwing out the fact that Harden on average is a 5-6 inning pitcher and and will tax the bullpen tremendously. Does WAR take that into account?

I love stats and put a great amount of stock into them but sometimes people just take them too literally and look at things in too much of a vacuum as if each individual player is on his own and not part of a collective entity that is a baseball team.

Nobody on here is doing that, but I'm talking about a Brewer site I visit and post where if I posted what I just posted I'd get jumped on as being anti-intellectual when in fact I'm quite the stats nerd myself.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

hahah



<!--quotec-->The Twins designated right-hander Boof Bonser for assignment on Tuesday to make room for Carl Pavano on the 40-man roster. MLB.com (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20091208&content_id=7775362&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb)<!--QuoteEnd-->
<!--QuoteEEnd-->

Carl Pavano is the gift that keeps on giving. First he gets us Pedro. Then he gives up one run in a complete game win against the Yankees in the 2003 World Series. Then he gets the Yankees to pay him 40 million dollars for 26 mostly sucktacular starts. Finally, he nets the Red Sox the guy with the greatest porn name in the history of baseball. Awesome.

One could argue that no one person has been more valuable to the Red Sox than Carl Pavano over the past 12 years. He's cemented his place in Red Sox history as the most valuable ex-Red Sox ever. He's the Jimmy Carter of Red Sox history.

Trautwein's?

[DaddyTorgo]

Trautwein's?

hmm? just an amusing post i saw over on SOSH. thought it was pretty funny.:lol:

[Chief Rum]

So, pretty much last year's plan? ;)

SI

Yup. :)

That decision in a roundabout way just ended up with the Angels giving in and acquiring Kazmir. Just a continuing shame about Adenhart. I am certain, with how much talent he had and how he started off the season, Adenhart would have settled that matter just fine.

The Angels best young pitchers are a year closer now, and the ones they used last year are at least broken in and maybe more ready for a role on the big league club.

[Chief Rum]

No you guys can have em:)

Woot! Get it done, Reagins! :)

[Dr. Sak]

.
Move over Boston and New York, two front runners have reportedly emerged for Toronto Blue Jays ace Roy Halladay.

According to a Fox Sports report, the Philadelphia Phillies and Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim have stepped up their quest to acquire Halladay, who both teams tried to add last July at the non-waiver trade deadline.

The Phillies are said to be including pitcher J.A. Happ, and either outfield prospect Domonic Brown or Michael Taylor in their offer.

The Angels package is believed to include pitcher Joe Saunders, shortstop Erick Aybar and outfield prospect Peter Bourjos.

The report also suggest that if the Jays and Angels make a deal, that the Jays would likely try to flip Joe Saunders to another club to help fill other needs.

In a separate report, the New York Daily News says that there is a chance that left-handed pitcher Cole Hamels could be included in a Halladay deal.

Halladay would have to approve any deal because of his no-trade clause, and any team that acquires him would more than likely want him to sign an extension before any deal would be completed. For Halladay to agree to a deal with the Angels, he would have to train in Arizona, which is reportedly a sticking point.

The 32-year old went 17-10 last season with a 2.79 ERA. He threw a league-leading nine complete games and racked up an impressive 239 innings pitched.

Halladay has a 148-76 career record with a 3.43 ERA. He won the American League Cy Young award in 2003 and has finished in the top five in Cy Young voting four other times.

[RedKingGold]

Put our name on the trophy if we get Halladay....(assuming we stay healthy)

[Logan]

...Roy Halladay
Raul Ibanez
RedKingGold
Jimmy Rollins...

Got it.

[BishopMVP]

In a completely non-snarky way I am interested in how you've developed this opinion.It depends on just how highly he is being rated. I think his ceiling is a #2/3. His dominant numbers have come in large part because of great command, which is obviously fantastic, but has less projectability and regresses some at the higher levels like Bowden has. So he is a great prospect, and probably deserves to be around #50 in the minors, but if he's being put up in the top 20 and talked about as a future ace his value is likely to never be higher (see Lars Anderson last offseason). He's also a pitching prospect in single A - TNSTAAP and all. There's a reason why Westmoreland is the one untouchable in the system and Buchholz is the pitcher Toronto asked for first. I'm not even sure Kelly deserves to be higher than Reddick, Lars, Bowden or Kalish, but people tend to get enamored of the newest shiny thing (helloooooo Jose Iglesias!).*sigh* Apparently the Sox interest in Beltre is "significant."

Lord save us all.Beltre would be fantastic between his defense, home/road splits, and Type B status.I would do that, especially if the Angels got clearance to work otu an extension with him first (not sure if that's in the cards).I don't get the reluctance of Toronto to offer a 72-hour window to negotiate an extension. Unless they think Halladay will be outrageous in his demands and scare off suitors.Yeah thanks for the stats. I stand corrected on their ages. Coco plays like a 33 year old at times. Heredia is a high risk high reward guy and Crisp is well a guy that wasn't good enough to keep a few years ago what has changed. On the bright side when you finish up school you will have a great future as a VP with the Sox rationalizing all the weird transactions Epstein makes for the fan bases consumption.Shurg. Talk about Heredia as a mid-30's washed up player, keep insisting Coco - who has made a living the past few years sacrificing his body and playing great defense - plays like a 33y/o. I can see why fans are pissed if we're not going after one of the two proven stud LF'ers on the market and going with a platoon - like you said we got rid of Coco because he wasn't good enough for that role 2 years ago (and we got a decent reliever) - but at least don't get your facts completely wrong.Of course I've been looking at Harden through Brewers lenses. The Brewers had one of the worst starting staffs in the league last year, if not the worst. I thought signing a guy like Randy Wolf was much preferred to signing a guy like Harden. Wolf won't put up dazzling numbers like Harden has the potential to do, but at the same time Wolf is no slouch.

I've considered myself a stats guy for a long time but people keep throwing me these projections that Wolf and Harden will end up with the same WAR even though Harden projects to throw a lot less innings than Wolf because Harden's work will be higher quality. But I keep throwing out the fact that Harden on average is a 5-6 inning pitcher and and will tax the bullpen tremendously. Does WAR take that into account?I think the value of Harden depends on the team and you're correct from a Brewers perspective. The Red Sox (or other big market clubs) are used to having 6-7 starters ready to go and expecting guys to go on the DL during the year, so it's worth the risk/reward. Meanwhile the Brewers can't afford to be wrong and should take the guy who projects to pitch 200+ innings and hope he turns in a Javier Vasquez season.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

It depends on just how highly he is being rated. I think his ceiling is a #2/3. His dominant numbers have come in large part because of great command, which is obviously fantastic, but has less projectability and regresses some at the higher levels like Bowden has. So he is a great prospect, and probably deserves to be around #50 in the minors, but if he's being put up in the top 20 and talked about as a future ace his value is likely to never be higher (see Lars Anderson last offseason). He's also a pitching prospect in single A - TNSTAAP and all. There's a reason why Westmoreland is the one untouchable in the system and Buchholz is the pitcher Toronto asked for first. I'm not even sure Kelly deserves to be higher than Reddick, Lars, Bowden or Kalish, but people tend to get enamored of the newest shiny thing (helloooooo Jose Iglesias!).

Fair enough. #50 is about where I'd rate him, he's too far away to say he's a huge prospect at this point. I am excited for what he did in A ball at a young age but he's far from golden for sure. A little surprised that you'd see Reddick or (especially) Bowden above him, though.

[sterlingice]

...Roy Halladay
Raul Ibanez
RedKingGold
Jimmy Rollins...

Got it.

Really? We're nitpicking the use of pronouns when describing the team one is a fan of?

SI

[Logan]

No, only for RKG. We should also tell him how it doesn't matter if he thinks the Phillies will win it all since none of us are MLB scouts.

[BishopMVP]

Fair enough. #50 is about where I'd rate him, he's too far away to say he's a huge prospect at this point. I am excited for what he did in A ball at a young age but he's far from golden for sure. A little surprised that you'd see Reddick or (especially) Bowden above him, though.I'm not sure I'd say above, but all jumbled in the same grouping with plausible arguments for each. Bowden had a better K/9 and equal K/BB ratios at age 19 in Single A. It feels like he's been around forever, but he's only 22 and put up a WHIP of 1.21 in AAA last year. Michael Bowden Minor League Statistics & History - Baseball-Reference.com (http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=bowden001mic)

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Well, to your larger point I am all for cashing in on our prospects except Westmoreland. I'm still holding out hope we can forget Beltre and get that 1B from San Diego.

[sterlingice]

"That 1B from San Diego" *sigh* ;)

SI

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

I'm not sure what you're referring to, but I certainly feel entitled to him. ;)

[sterlingice]

Oh, c'mon! He's one of the best power hitters in baseball. At least know his name! ;)

SI

[lungs]

As long as it gets all you Boston fools away from drooling over Prince Fielder :)

Or I suppose that's David Ortiz's replacement, no?

[ISiddiqui]

Seriously...

(on knowing the guy's name)

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Oh come on guys. Of course I know Adrion Rodriguez's name.

[sterlingice]

Oh come on guys. Of course I know Adrion Rodriguez's name.

Nicely played. Vaguely misspell the first name and then exchange for another "generic" common Latin ballplayer last name. :D

I also would have accepted the following:
Adiran Hernandez
Adrayan Lopez
Hadrian Ramirez

SI

[DaddyTorgo]

hmm - beltre would be fantastic? really?

his slugging fell off a cliff after his "steroid-year" and then fell off the second cliff this past year (he was injured though i gather?).

call me crazy, but i find it hard to get excited about a guy hitting .265 and putting up 25 homers with a .327 OBP. Even if he's Omar frigging Vizquiel.

And Beltre, as good as he is in the field is maybe 11 runs better than Lowell (based on baseball reference's "Total Fielding Runs Above Average."). Lowell's OPS+ was like 24pts higher and hit .290 as compared to .265 in basically the same number of games. Lowell's 2009 VORP was 22.9. Beltre was 5.

Not that statistics are everything, but I don't see how Beltre (at the added cost of salary - $3m - Max R.'s salary) is a "fantastic upgrade" over Lowell.

[DaddyTorgo]

Well, to your larger point I am all for cashing in on our prospects except Westmoreland. I'm still holding out hope we can forget Beltre and get that 1B from San Diego.

one of the last tweets from the winter meeting was that SD is listening to offers but definately not "shopping" gonzalez.

[Atocep]

Could someone in or around NY please head over to the Mets offices and tell them not to sign Benjie Molina?

Thanks.

[Sublime 2]

hmm - beltre would be fantastic? really?

his slugging fell off a cliff after his "steroid-year" and then fell off the second cliff this past year (he was injured though i gather?).

call me crazy, but i find it hard to get excited about a guy hitting .265 and putting up 25 homers with a .327 OBP. Even if he's Omar frigging Vizquiel.

And Beltre, as good as he is in the field is maybe 11 runs better than Lowell (based on baseball reference's "Total Fielding Runs Above Average."). Lowell's OPS+ was like 24pts higher and hit .290 as compared to .265 in basically the same number of games. Lowell's 2009 VORP was 22.9. Beltre was 5.

Not that statistics are everything, but I don't see how Beltre (at the added cost of salary - $3m - Max R.'s salary) is a "fantastic upgrade" over Lowell.

I tend to agree. Beltre is really pretty 'meh' to me, especially if they are looking at anything more than a 3 yr deal. Defense seems to such volatile skill once players reach their mid 30's. Isn't Lowell just a couple years away from like a +10 to +15 UZR (understandably not the be all end all of defensive stats)? I'd much rather move Youk to 3rd and have Kotchman at 1st if it means holding out for something better.

[Mr. Sparkle]

Since I'm bored, I'll give you all my thoughts on the offseason so far:

I must say, I like how things have transpired so far Giants fan, for a couple reasons: The Giants haven't done anything stupid (yet), and the NL West hasn't gotten any better (and in some cases, worse). The NYY-DET-AZ deal is terrible for Arizona. They have to be convinced that Scherzer is going to break down in the very near future. Jackson is decent enough, but he's going to start getting expensive. Kennedy was hurt for pretty much all of 2009, and I don't think he'll be much more than a #4 starter at best. They must have been impressed with his AFL numbers. They gave up two young, cheap pitchers who are under control for a long time. Not bright.

I don't know why the Dodgers didn't offer arbitration to Wolf and Hudson. They cost themselves some draft picks with that decision. Hudson might have accepted, but they have no second basemen anyways, so that wouldn't have been devastating. Even Wolf accepting wouldn't have been terribly bad. Now that he's gone, they have two holes to fill in their rotation.

Colorado hasn't done much, but they don't really have to. They're the NL West team most set for the future, IMO. They could use an upgrade in their rotation, depending on how Jeff Francis comes back from injury.

San Diego is, well, San Diego. When you have to non-tender Kevin Correia because you don't want to pay him a couple mil, you know it's going to be a long 2010.

Around the league, I love what the Mariners are doing. I'm not a huge Figgins guy, but he came cheaper than I thought, and with Ichiro will make a studly 1-2 punch at the top of the order. Would've loved their offseason even more had they signed Harden. Jack Z seems to be checking in on every available player, be it trade or FA. I think they still have some big moves left in them.

The team with the worst offseason so far has to be the Astros. 3/$15 million for Brandon Lyon? If you're going to overpay, overpay for a good MR! Pedro Feliz is garbage. They didn't give up too much for Matt Lindstrom, but they have the worst farm system in baseball so I don't know that they should be trading anyone with even a slight bit of talent.

I'm glad the Giants didn't pay Brad Penny what he got from St. Louis. I'd rather have had Harden than Penny, personally. If the Giants are going to sign a SP to replace him, I'd love them to see what Bedard wants. He'd take a 1 year deal to rebuild his value, and SF is a great park to do it in. So glad Molina is gone, but I just wish they'd hand the job to Posey and be done with it. They might have to by default now, given that the Nationals skewed the entire market for catchers with their ridiculous signing of Pudge for 2 years/$6 million. Please, Sabean, no Rod Barajas/Jason Kendall/Miguel Olivo. Sign someone cheap, like a Josh Bard type, and let Posey do his thing. All in all, Sabes has been saying a lot of logical things. They appear to be in on Nick Johnson, have a passing interest on Beltre, won't give up too much for Dan Uggla. I...I don't even know who he is any more. It's going to be amazing to see how he screws everything up this time.

So I guess that's all from me, for now at least. Back to your regularly scheduled Red Sox/Yankees/Mets/Phillies talk! ;)

[CraigSca]

The more I hear about the Mets plans, the more they sound to me like the Yankees of the 80's. They overpay for "names" in the twilights of their careers with more downside than upside.

[dawgfan]

hmm - beltre would be fantastic? really?

his slugging fell off a cliff after his "steroid-year" and then fell off the second cliff this past year (he was injured though i gather?).

call me crazy, but i find it hard to get excited about a guy hitting .265 and putting up 25 homers with a .327 OBP. Even if he's Omar frigging Vizquiel.
Safeco was an awful home park for Beltre - it seriously negates right-handed power hitters. It has killed Beltre - his home/road OPS splits since he signed with Seattle:

.694/.735
.777/.805
.745/.858
.703/.861
.647/.717

All those flyballs that died on the warning track at Safeco will be either homers or doubles off the Monster at Fenway.

You just have to hope he can stay a little more healthy than he was with Seattle - he's been battling a chronic thumb problem and has had groin, hamstring and wrist injuries. But the guy is a warrior - he will battle through most injuries, probably to the detriment of himself and his team.

And Beltre, as good as he is in the field is maybe 11 runs better than Lowell (based on baseball reference's "Total Fielding Runs Above Average."). Lowell's OPS+ was like 24pts higher and hit .290 as compared to .265 in basically the same number of games. Lowell's 2009 VORP was 22.9. Beltre was 5.

Not that statistics are everything, but I don't see how Beltre (at the added cost of salary - $3m - Max R.'s salary) is a "fantastic upgrade" over Lowell.
WAR results (via Fangraphs) over the 5 years comparing Beltre & Lowell:

2005: 2.5 vs. 0.5
2006: 4.6 vs. 3.4
2007: 3.0 vs. 5.3
2008: 4.1 vs. 3.2
2009: 2.4 vs. 1.2

That's 16.6 for Beltre vs. 13.6 for Lowell.

"Fantastic" upgrade? I don't know if that's true, but definitely an upgrade.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

The other thing is that Lowell's hip got shot. You can't really look at Lowell's defense a couple of years ago because that's in no way who Lowell is now.

[DaddyTorgo]

that's legit about lowell's hip. but i wasn't thinking they'd keep him there. it'd be more likely they'd move youk there and move lowell to 1B, or acquire a 1B thru a trade or something else. just saying historically-speaking Beltre hasn't been loads better defensively than Lowell.

Interesting about safeco killing beltre's power. If he does have a "fenway" type swing he could definately benefit from the monster, that's for sure

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Personally I think that Youk/Lowell to Kotchman/Youk is close to a wash.

[Mr. Sparkle]

I found these stats comparing Beltre on the road from '06-'08, and Jason Bay on the road from '07-'09 to be verrrrry interesting:

Beltre: .287 BA 132 runs, 69 2B, five 3B, 39 HRs and 153 RBI
Bay: .262 BA 143 runs, 40 2B, four 3B, 48 HRs and 134 RBI

Road OPS from same timeframe

Beltre: 805, .858 and .862
Bay: .766, .874 and .904

Beltre's 2009 stats were ignored because he was hurt, but this illustrates how terrible Safeco is for right-handed power hitters such as Adrian Beltre. Mix in his consistently Gold Glove caliber defense, and he could be a great signing for a team. I'm hoping it's the Giants, but it's beginning to look like they're not willing to meet his current asking price.

[JS19]

The more I hear about the Mets plans, the more they sound to me like the Yankees of the 80's. They overpay for "names" in the twilights of their careers with more downside than upside.

Seriously. I thought they put that behind them after the Alomar/Vaughn/Burnitz disaster, but apparently not. I used to be a supporter of Minaya, but this team is such a mess, somebody needs to be held responsible. I saw on espn that they are in the mix for Bay. I know they need an OF and a power bat, but if they sign him I feel like it will just set them back even further.

[Atocep]

Seriously. I thought they put that behind them after the Alomar/Vaughn/Burnitz disaster, but apparently not. I used to be a supporter of Minaya, but this team is such a mess, somebody needs to be held responsible. I saw on espn that they are in the mix for Bay. I know they need an OF and a power bat, but if they sign him I feel like it will just set them back even further.

Bay's defense at Citi would be a disaster waiting to happen. I don't mind seeing them going after big name free agents and making another 2 year run with this core; especially when you consider they won't lose a 1st round pick by signing a type A. If Holliday's demands are anywhere near what Bay's are, though, Holliday is the way to go.

To stress this point again - PLEASE DON'T SIGN BENJIE MOLINA. WE ALREADY HAVE FRANOEUR GIVING AWAY NEARLY 500 OUTS PER YEAR.

[SackAttack]

I don't know why the Dodgers didn't offer arbitration to Wolf and Hudson. They cost themselves some draft picks with that decision. Hudson might have accepted, but they have no second basemen anyways, so that wouldn't have been devastating. Even Wolf accepting wouldn't have been terribly bad. Now that he's gone, they have two holes to fill in their rotation.

Because Frank McCourt is penny-wise and pound-fucking-foolish.

No, I'm not bitter.

[RedKingGold]

No, only for RKG. We should also tell him how it doesn't matter if he thinks the Phillies will win it all since none of us are MLB scouts.

Hmm...it might be about time to bump that Mets thread.

[sterlingice]

Seriously. I thought they put that behind them after the Alomar/Vaughn/Burnitz disaster, but apparently not. I used to be a supporter of Minaya, but this team is such a mess, somebody needs to be held responsible. I saw on espn that they are in the mix for Bay. I know they need an OF and a power bat, but if they sign him I feel like it will just set them back even further.

That's funny because at Royals Review, there's a school of thought that Dayton Moore and Omar Minaya are racing to see who can make worse moves: " I think Omar may have already checkmated Dayton on free-agent C acquisition if the 2/$12M offer to Benjie is true."

Then again, yesterday, the conclusion was reached that "GMDM’s entire personnel acquisition philosophy does seem to be based on spite."

"This must be Dayton’s “You guys didn’t like Olivo, I’ll show YOU!” statement. When you’d rather hear your team linked to Rod Barajas than some other player, it’s truly a brutal offseason."

“You guys didn’t like Joey Gathright. I’ll show YOU: Josh Anderson!”
“You guys didn’t like Ross Gload. I’ll show YOU: Mike Jacobs!”
“You guys didn’t like Brett Tomko. I’ll show YOU: Sidney Ponson!”

And, of course:
“You guys didn’t like Angel Berroa. I’ll show YOU: Tony Pena Jr!”
“You guys didn’t like Tony Pena Jr. I’ll show YOU: Yuniesky Betancourt!”


But, really, what is up with this bizarre game of "Crappy, Old C Musical Chairs". You've got Ivan Rodriguez, Jason Kendall, Benji Molina, Rod Barajas, Miguel Olivo, and Yorvit Torrelba for the Rockies, Nats, Mets, Royals, Giants, and Blue Jays and maybe there's another C or two or another team or two I'm missing. And they're all getting 2 year deals!?!


SI

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

If the Met's initial offer of 4/$65 is to be believed, then it looks like Bay won't be coming back to Boston.

[jbergey22]

The more I hear about the Mets plans, the more they sound to me like the Yankees of the 80's. They overpay for "names" in the twilights of their careers with more downside than upside.

I wouldnt single this out to the Yankees of the 80s. They are still doing it however doing it with more fortune and better players around them "names" in the twilight of their careers.

[jbergey22]

Of course I've been looking at Harden through Brewers lenses. The Brewers had one of the worst starting staffs in the league last year, if not the worst. I thought signing a guy like Randy Wolf was much preferred to signing a guy like Harden. Wolf won't put up dazzling numbers like Harden has the potential to do, but at the same time Wolf is no slouch.

I've considered myself a stats guy for a long time but people keep throwing me these projections that Wolf and Harden will end up with the same WAR even though Harden projects to throw a lot less innings than Wolf because Harden's work will be higher quality. But I keep throwing out the fact that Harden on average is a 5-6 inning pitcher and and will tax the bullpen tremendously. Does WAR take that into account?

I love stats and put a great amount of stock into them but sometimes people just take them too literally and look at things in too much of a vacuum as if each individual player is on his own and not part of a collective entity that is a baseball team.

Nobody on here is doing that, but I'm talking about a Brewer site I visit and post where if I posted what I just posted I'd get jumped on as being anti-intellectual when in fact I'm quite the stats nerd myself.

I think they overpaid quite a bit TBH. Wolf looked great last year however it was his first good season since 2003. Dodger Stadium is a pitchers park and Wolf is 33 years old. I cant see him improving from last year. Something like 11-11 with a 4.15 ERA is what Id expect.

[lungs]

I think they overpaid quite a bit TBH. Wolf looked great last year however it was his first good season since 2003. Dodger Stadium is a pitchers park and Wolf is 33 years old. I cant see him improving from last year. Something like 11-11 with a 4.15 ERA is what Id expect.

Problem is Wolf pitched better on the road than he did at Dodger Stadium.
(edit: Home - 4-3 3.63 ERA 15 HR allowed. Away: 7-4 2.78 ERA 9 HR allowed)

Don't get me wrong, I know they overpaid but they really had no choice. Otherwise they'd be throwing the likes of Braden Looper and Mike Burns out there again next year. Jeff Suppan's dreadful contract ($12 million next season) will finally be off the books along with a lot of other money like paying Bill Hall $8 million not to play for the Brewers and David Riske's $4.5 million to rehab from TJ surgery.

I'd be perfectly fine with a 4.15 ERA. Guessing a record is a fool's errand as it's pretty dependent on the offense. Wolf might end up being a pretty bad contract in the third year but we'll cross that road then.

[Mr. Sparkle]

Because Frank McCourt is penny-wise and pound-fucking-foolish.

No, I'm not bitter.

I have a feeling that whole divorce thing will affect the Dodgers' offseason. Just a feeling.

[Terps]

Pedro Feliz signing with Houston might be the best move the Orioles made all week.

He was apparently at the top of the O's wish list, thank god Houston was dumb enough to sign him. Izturis is already an all glove, no hit SS, they didn't need an all glove, no hit 3Bman.

[BishopMVP]

As long as it gets all you Boston fools away from drooling over Prince Fielder :)

Or I suppose that's David Ortiz's replacement, no?Pretty much. Let us know when he gets too expensive/too big for 1B.that's legit about lowell's hip. but i wasn't thinking they'd keep him there. it'd be more likely they'd move youk there and move lowell to 1B, or acquire a 1B thru a trade or something else. just saying historically-speaking Beltre hasn't been loads better defensively than Lowell.Yeah, but 2004 Mike Lowell would be a huge improvement over 2009/10 Mike Lowell. It's not his fault age finally caught up with him, but I'd say it's pretty obvious if we sign Scutaro and Beltre while letting Bay go that we're building more heavily around defense and pitching than the past couple years.Interesting about safeco killing beltre's power. If he does have a "fenway" type swing he could definately benefit from the monster, that's for sureBeltre career road split: .287 avg .338 OBP .488 SLG .826 OPS
Lowell career road split: .276 avg .331 OBP .382 SLG .713 OPS

At some point it's less about "having a Fenway" swing and more about not being a black hole on the road. Our offense often disappeared on the road, Mike Lowell had the biggest splits, and it's a large part of why we had the 3rd biggest home/road split in the majors (after Tampa and weirdly Pittsburgh). If not Beltre, Nick Johnson is another FA that the RS have tried to acquire in the past. (And of course, the deal may not be done - tbh it doesn't make much sense from Texas' perspective.)

[lungs]

Pretty much. Let us know when he gets too expensive/too big for 1B.

In 2008, Prince was just awful at first base and he really let his weight get away from him. Thankfully he knew it and he came into 2009 in much better shape and it showed offensively and defensively. He went from awful to acceptable defensively.

He's under contract for 2010 and arbitration eligible again in 2011. It'll be interesting to see how he is handled. I think people underestimate how much the Brewers can actually spend, but then again, Fielder might be making himself into a $18-20 million/year player which would be workable if there wasn't a risk with his weight.

Thankfully Ryan Braun is signed to a very, very team friendly deal and I just laugh at some of these trade proposals I hear on MLBTraderumors comment sections where guys want to give up about 4 average prospects for Ryan Braun.

Braun ain't gettin' too expensive for the Brewers any time soon. Nor is he getting traded.

[SackAttack]

I have a feeling that whole divorce thing will affect the Dodgers' offseason. Just a feeling.

Oh, absolutely.

But the point is, he's pinching pennies as a result of that, either because he thinks he'll have to sell the team, or because he thinks he's going to end up having to pay Jamie something or other.

Instead of investing in the team, with the knowledge that he's got a team that could win a World Series with just a couple more pieces, and that's far more valuable than a team that loses a couple of NLCS before sinking back into a repeat of the late 90s.

[BishopMVP]

In 2008, Prince was just awful at first base and he really let his weight get away from him. Thankfully he knew it and he came into 2009 in much better shape and it showed offensively and defensively. He went from awful to acceptable defensively.

He's under contract for 2010 and arbitration eligible again in 2011. It'll be interesting to see how he is handled. I think people underestimate how much the Brewers can actually spend, but then again, Fielder might be making himself into a $18-20 million/year player which would be workable if there wasn't a risk with his weight.

Thankfully Ryan Braun is signed to a very, very team friendly deal and I just laugh at some of these trade proposals I hear on MLBTraderumors comment sections where guys want to give up about 4 average prospects for Ryan Braun.

Braun ain't gettin' too expensive for the Brewers any time soon. Nor is he getting traded.Yeah I think the Prince as Ortiz replacement line was more prevalent in 2008 when Fielder was eating his way out of 1B and the Brewers still had LaPorta/Gamel as power hitters behind Braun and Fielder. I don't know how Braun's defense in left is progressing, but he's probably still well below average and might be best suited for 1B as well. But clearly anyone who knows what they're talking about knows Braun (and Longoria, probably Hanley until 2013) isn't going anywhere during his current deal.

A darkhorse power-hitting 1B/DH that's hasn't been mentioned here (and I would hate) is Justin Morneau, under the thinking that Minnesota could trade him and use that money to re-sign Joe Mauer.

[RainMaker]

Not sure if this has been posted, but it's Gammons' farewell. Pretty long career at ESPN and definitely made his mark. I remember as a kid listening to Diamond Notes for the little news stories that no one else had.

Peter Gammons: My 20 years at ESPN - ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=gammons_peter&id=4734773)

[lungs]

Yeah I think the Prince as Ortiz replacement line was more prevalent in 2008 when Fielder was eating his way out of 1B and the Brewers still had LaPorta/Gamel as power hitters behind Braun and Fielder. I don't know how Braun's defense in left is progressing, but he's probably still well below average and might be best suited for 1B as well. But clearly anyone who knows what they're talking about knows Braun (and Longoria, probably Hanley until 2013) isn't going anywhere during his current deal.

A darkhorse power-hitting 1B/DH that's hasn't been mentioned here (and I would hate) is Justin Morneau, under the thinking that Minnesota could trade him and use that money to re-sign Joe Mauer.

UZR had Braun as one of the worst LF in the NL last year, if not the worst. The thing is, Braun is very athletic. He's not that big of a guy for the power numbers he puts up. Watching him play every day, his problem is that he takes some strange angles on balls and makes some boneheaded plays once in a while. He's got a rocket of an arm out there. I don't think it's a matter of him not having the physical tools to play outfield, but a matter of him using those tools to play better. I guess I won't get too worked up about Braun's defense out there when he hits like does. There is probably more talk of actually moving him to a harder outfield position (RF) in order to accommodate another butcher of a 3B in Mat Gamel's move to the outfield.

As for Prince, I wouldn't eliminate him as a possibility for other teams in the near future as much as it pains me to say it. I'm guessing they will talk to Prince and Scott Boras this offseason after the rest of the holes are plugged about an extension that would probably take him to about 30 years old. Surprisingly, the Brewers have a very good relationship with Boras but I'm not necessarily getting my hopes up for an extension.

If the Brewers aren't contending at the trade deadline next year, I could see Prince being shopped if no extension is signed. Definitely next offseason if there is no extension.

[SirFozzie]

Wow, talk out of NOWHERE..

Red Sox gave John Lackey a physical today, and multiple sources are reporting he's close to signing a deal in the range of 5 years/$82.5 million

[DaddyTorgo]

zoinks!

[Chief Rum]

Wow, talk out of NOWHERE..

Red Sox gave John Lackey a physical today, and multiple sources are reporting he's lose to signing a deal in the range of 5 years/$82.5 million

What aources do you have?

I have seen Ed Price Twitter about the physical, and that's it.

Rosenthal has an article up, which only states the same thing Price had (seems like just running with what Price had), and then he has a ton of speculation about all sorts of things after that, with no attribution to it whatsoever.

I'm not saying it's not true. Certainly a physical is an interesting step to be taking at this point and makes one wonder if the Sox are on the verge of signing Lackey. But just reading Rosenthal's article--and he's a guy I have a ton of respect for usually--I was just appalled at the complete lack of journalistic integrity.

So, yeah, definitely curious, Foz, if you have seen other sources besides Price's Twitter.

[SirFozzie]

Ken Rosenthal's as well.. but yeah..

Source: Lackey has BoSox physical; deal close? - MLB News - FOX Sports on MSN (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/10523180/Source:-Lackey-has-BoSox-physical;-deal-close?)

Rosenthal updated it saying that he's heard it from a major league source.

The only way this makes sense to me, is if there's a trade of Bucholz in the works. I thought we had enough starters that we could roll the dice on younger pitchers at the 5 spot (or sign a 1 year bandaid).. never saw this coming.

Heh. a bit of screw your neighbor.. if the Sox do sign Lackey, they would give their first rounder (#29) to the Angels instead of the Jays (for Marco Scutaro), and the Jays would be bumped all the way down to #67

[SirFozzie]

Dola: ESPN.com has it too, but just credits it to a source:

Source: John Lackey taking physical for Red Sox - ESPN Boston (http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/mlb/news/story?id=4741437)

[stevew]

Ken Rosenthal's as well.. but yeah..

[url="http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/10523180/Source:-Lackey-has-BoSox-physical;-deal-close?"]
Heh. a bit of screw your neighbor.. if the Sox do sign Lackey, they would give their first rounder (#29) to the Angels instead of the Jays (for Marco Scutaro), and the Jays would be bumped all the way down to #67

LOL.
Much like Last year when AJ got bumped all the way to a 3rd.

[Chief Rum]

Yeah, that was the Rosenthal article I read. Only information being attributed to a source is the physical, which Price first broke. So the only point of evidence being thrown out there is the existence of a physical.

Now that is interesting news, like I said, and does lead one to wonder if the Red Sox are signing Lackey. But Rosenthal than goes on for a whole page's worth of speculation based entirely on this one bit of fact about the physical. He presumes the contract, speculates on what the Red Sox are saying to Bay's agent, gets in stuff on the Halladay thing, etc. I mean, he takes just an anonymous MLB source, and extrapolates it to an enormous extent, far beyond what is credible in general journalistically.

This makes me wonder two things--A) Does Rosenthal know more than he's saying, but isn't cleared by his source to speak about it yet, and is hiding behind "speculation"? Or B) is Rosenthal following the usual path of baseball writers during the hot steve season and trying to fill a column to a deadline because that's what he needs to do, or because he's under pressure to "beat" ESPN or Ed Price to a full story?

BTW, back to the physical, doesn't that usally follow signing the contract? Why would Lackey's agent agree to allow a physical before a contract was signed? He wouldn't. A physical is not required until a deal is done i.e. "pending physical", and there's a risk in allowing a physical before a deal is done (if something comes up, the player and agent lose leverage). But for this to have gotten to the physical stage--after a deal is signed--and no one to hear about the signing, I find that hard to believe. The agent would be talking. The Red Sox would be talking. All of the teams in on Lackey, their sources would have leaked the info when the agent inevitably brought the Red Sox proposed deal back to them to see if they want to top it. There's just so much about this that doesn't pass the "common sense" test.

[DeToxRox]

Interesting:

CSN's Jim Salisbury reports today that the Phillies are "actively talking" about a contract extension with Roy Halladay's agent, according to two baseball sources. One of those sources told Salisbury Doc is likely to take a physical with the Phillies this week. The Philadelphia Inquirer's Andy Martino adds that Halladay and his agent have checked into a Philadelphia-area hotel.

What's more, Salisbury writes of "indications that pitcher Cliff Lee could be traded." SI's Jon Heyman wrote today that Lee would take no discount to sign an extension. Ken Rosenthal and Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports write that "a three-team blockbuster that would send Halladay to the Phillies and Lee to another club is under discussion." They add that the Mariners have "contemplated dealing for Lee in recent days," but a straight Phillies-Jays trade is also possible. The writers say these complex talks involve the Phils receiving money to put toward Halladay's $15.75MM salary next year.

[McSweeny]

Done Deal

5 years 85 million for John Lackey according to John Heyman

nice

[DaddyTorgo]

that strikes me as pretty damn good value

seemingly means they'll be out of Bay/Holliday bidding and go with Beltre and then a platoon in LF i guess? Probably not the best solution - I understand the whole "a run saved is as good as a run scored" argument, but you can only have so many starting pitchers - at some point you still need to score runs, and Ortiz is still left without any protection in the lineup at the moment.

Unless it's a precursor to something else.

[molson]

That's definitely better than giving up a haul for Halladay AND having to pay him probably more than that.

[Chief Rum]

As an Angels fan, I'm torn on whether that's a good deal, if true.

$17 M per is a lot of money for a guy who had some lingering injury issues, isn't getting any younger, was never really a true #1 and has displayed some anger issues in key situations that have cost him.

That said, if you told me during the season that the Angels could sign Lackey for $17 M per, I think I would said, get it done.

I kinda thought the Angels would lose Lackey, but it sucks to lose him to the Red Sox on the same day their next best apparent option--Halladay--is possibly dealt to the Phils instead, which, oh BTW, also moves Lee to a primary divisional rival. I mean, it's as if someone designed today to be a day of supreme suckage for the Angels. My guess is by the end of the day, Weaver will fracture a bone skiing and Santana will tear up his rotator cuff in the Venezuela Winter League. That oughta wrap up a wonderful day. :rolleyes:

[McSweeny]

Also looks like Roy Halladay to Philly and Cliff Lee to Seattle is a done deal. No details yet, but I love getting Halladay the hell out of the American League East.

I think I'm going to pick Seattle to win the West this year. I really like what they've done so far. Really good stuff.

[Chief Rum]

Also looks like Roy Halladay to Philly and Cliff Lee to Seattle is a done deal. No details yet, but I love getting Halladay the hell out of the American League East.

I think I'm going to pick Seattle to win the West this year. I really like what they've done so far. Really good stuff.

Seattle has done some very good things, yes.

Don't count the Angels out, though, just yet.They still have a much better offense than the M's (M's gain Figgy, but they lost Beltre and weren't a strong offense in the first place; the Angels had the best offense in baseball outside of the Yanks) and could still add Bay, and while no one starter for the Angels is as good as King Felix or Lee, they have a foursome that is better than almost all other fours in baseball in Weaver, Saunders, Santana and Kazmir. And you just know they'll do something with that 5th starter spot (probably trade for Derek Lowe, but I am hoping for something more exciting).

Plus, everyone likes to pick the "flavors of the week" in the West and then watch as the Angels again end up on top.

Regardless, I would bet if another team does win the division, they're going to have to win it (can't back into it), because the Angels aren't going anywhere.

It will be interesting to see how the Angels react to today.

[McSweeny]

Seattle has done some very good things, yes.

Don't count the Angels out, though, just yet.They still have a much better offense than the M's (M's gain Figgy, but they lost Beltre and weren't a strong offense in the first place; the Angels had the best offense in baseball outside of the Yanks) and could still add Bay, and while no one starter for the Angels is as good as King Felix or Lee, they have a foursome that is better than almost all other fours in baseball in Weaver, Saunders, Santana and Kazmir. And you just know they'll do something with that 5th starter spot (probably trade for Derek Lowe, but I am hoping for something more exciting).

Plus, everyone likes to pick the "flavors of the week" in the West and then watch as the Angels again end up on top.

Regardless, I would bet if another team does win the division, they're going to have to win it (can't back into it), because the Angels aren't going anywhere.

It will be interesting to see how the Angels react to today.

I pretty much agree with everything you just said. I'm not trying to discount the Angels as much as I'm impressed with the direction the Mariners are going in.

[Logan]

Does the Phillies' financial situation really not allow for keeping Lee while adding Halladay? I'm not sure I understand the move.

[McSweeny]

dola

I also think that Jason Bay would be a perfect fit for the Angels if you can put up with his terrible outfield defense.

[DaddyTorgo]

Also looks like Roy Halladay to Philly and Cliff Lee to Seattle is a done deal. No details yet, but I love getting Halladay the hell out of the American League East.

I think I'm going to pick Seattle to win the West this year. I really like what they've done so far. Really good stuff.

so we don't know yet what Toronto is getting out of this deal?

[ISiddiqui]

Wow! That's strange - getting Halladay while getting rid of Lee, who seemed to fit in very nicely in Philly. Was hearing Halladay and Lee, but guess not. Almost ends up being even in terms of their rotation at the end of last season.

[BishopMVP]

Unless it's a precursor to something else.Wouldn't surprise me if it's the precursor to including Buchholz in a deal for Gonzalez or Cabrera. Reportedly San Diego (with 2 ex-RS guys running things) was asking for Buchholz + Westmoreland or Kelly. I'd gladly include Kelly of the three, particularly since we could sign Chapman to replace him, but you have to give something great to get a great player. It also might depend slightly on the status of Lowell to Texas - haven't heard anything about that being resolved.

Any rumors on what Seattle/Philly is sending to Toronto? I'd heard the Phillies prospects, but if they're giving up Lee the majority would probably come from Seattle's end and I'm less familiar with their guys.

[Young Drachma]

I'm going home to sulk.

[DaddyTorgo]

Wouldn't surprise me if it's the precursor to including Buchholz in a deal for Gonzalez or Cabrera. Reportedly San Diego (with 2 ex-RS guys running things) was asking for Buchholz + Westmoreland or Kelly. I'd gladly include Kelly of the three, particularly since we could sign Chapman to replace him, but you have to give something great to get a great player. It also might depend slightly on the status of Lowell to Texas - haven't heard anything about that being resolved.

Any rumors on what Seattle/Philly is sending to Toronto? I'd heard the Phillies prospects, but if they're giving up Lee the majority would probably come from Seattle's end and I'm less familiar with their guys.

i'd rather gonzalez than miggy frankly. and bucholz+kelly is fine by me.

[RedKingGold]

Supposedly, Halladay will agree to an extension as part of the deal. Methinks that Lee was more determined to test the market whereas the Phils were Halladay's #1 choice for a future team.

Still debating if I like this. It depensd on the prospects we gave up, I guess.

[Bigsmooth]

Wouldn't surprise me if it's the precursor to including Buchholz in a deal for Gonzalez or Cabrera. Reportedly San Diego (with 2 ex-RS guys running things) was asking for Buchholz + Westmoreland or Kelly. I'd gladly include Kelly of the three, particularly since we could sign Chapman to replace him, but you have to give something great to get a great player. It also might depend slightly on the status of Lowell to Texas - haven't heard anything about that being resolved.

Any rumors on what Seattle/Philly is sending to Toronto? I'd heard the Phillies prospects, but if they're giving up Lee the majority would probably come from Seattle's end and I'm less familiar with their guys.

Sounds like the M's are sending (according to Jason Churchill) Phillipe Aumont, Tyson Gilles, Juan Ramirez and ....?

[Chief Rum]

I pretty much agree with everything you just said. I'm not trying to discount the Angels as much as I'm impressed with the direction the Mariners are going in.

I am impressed, too (although I want to see what they're giving up for Lee). With them on the up and Texas with all their young pitching talent, the AL West is going to be a tough division this year.

[DeToxRox]

Wouldn't surprise me if it's the precursor to including Buchholz in a deal for Gonzalez or Cabrera. Reportedly San Diego (with 2 ex-RS guys running things) was asking for Buchholz + Westmoreland or Kelly. I'd gladly include Kelly of the three, particularly since we could sign Chapman to replace him, but you have to give something great to get a great player. It also might depend slightly on the status of Lowell to Texas - haven't heard anything about that being resolved.

Any rumors on what Seattle/Philly is sending to Toronto? I'd heard the Phillies prospects, but if they're giving up Lee the majority would probably come from Seattle's end and I'm less familiar with their guys.

Would be shocked if Miggy gets dealt but I could see it. I think Gonzalez is far more likely though.

[Chief Rum]

dola

I also think that Jason Bay would be a perfect fit for the Angels if you can put up with his terrible outfield defense.

I think they'll definitely consider it, especially with Torii in center to help cover ground.

The evil conspiracy guy in me suggests the Angels might deal Gary Matthews and prospects to the Braves for Lowe (probably eating $2-3 M for the length of Matthews contract), sign Bay, and then turn around and deal Rivera and Weaver (Boras client, not expected to re-sign with how relations are between the Angels and the super agent) for a frontline starter. Who that starter is, I don't know, maybe they contact the D'Backs again and see if they're interested in moving Webb or Haren, or maybe see if the Giants are concerned about being able to afford Cain with all the money they will have to dedicate to Lincecum. I think most people would consider a #2 level starter in Weaver and a good offensive LF on a great deal if they have an arm they would consider moving.

That would put a lineup of Aybar-Abreu-Hunter-Bay-Morales-Kendrick-Wood-Napoli (DH)-Mathis out there, with a rotation of said frontline starter-Saunders-Santana-Kazmir-Lowe.

Even if they don't find a taker for Rivera-Weaver, they go with Weaver-Saunders-Santana-Kazmir-Lowe, that's a pretty strong rotation and lineup (with Bay probably DHing a lot; Rivera back in LF).

But Bay and Lowe haven't happened yet, so I should probably be quiet and see how the Angels react first.

[Chief Rum]

Heh...Halos Heaven - Your Angels Blog. Angels Baseball Fans. Los Angeles We Fly Flags of Anaheim (www.halosheaven.com), a popular Angels blog, has a poll up.

"Is John Lackey a traitor?"

There is only one selectable response to the poll, lol.

[DaddyTorgo]

lot of hatred on there for a guy who was a FA...I mean what's he supposed to do?

[ISiddiqui]

Oh, come on... happens with most FA's. Red Sox fans used to call Damon that for years (at least the ones I knew anyways).

[Chief Rum]

lot of hatred on there for a guy who was a FA...I mean what's he supposed to do?

lol...yeah, give them a break, huh? They're no different than any other fanbase when a long time player leaves. Damon's a good example from the Sox.

And just because the Angels finally beat the Sox last season doesn't mean the Angels' fanbase doesn't still hate the Sox. They do, as much as ever. So Lackey to the Red Sox is going to be viewed that way by them.

Me personally, I'm not sorry to see him go. So I find it all funny.

[molson]

It seems like the typical mix for a message board. People notice the weirdos and attribute those opinions to the entire group, but no, I'm sure most regular Angels fans understand how the business of baseball works, or at least, they'll remember how it works after the initial emotional dissapointment.

[McSweeny]

I called Theo two weeks ago and gave him some advice, and it looks like he's listening to me. The Red Sox have signed Mike Cameron to a 2 year deal worth 15.5 million or so. It appears the plan will be to platoon him in leftfield with Jeremy Hermida to replace Jason Bay. Cameron hit 24 home runs last year to go with an OBP of .342 When you factor in the superior defense of Cameron (along with the league average defense of Hermida) it looks like an upgrade over Bay. I like it.

It's going to be lots of fun to watch an outfield of Cameron-Ellsbury-Drew.

[DaddyTorgo]

I called Theo two weeks ago and gave him some advice, and it looks like he's listening to me. The Red Sox have signed Mike Cameron to a 2 year deal worth 15.5 million or so. It appears the plan will be to platoon him in leftfield with Jeremy Hermida to replace Jason Bay. Cameron hit 24 home runs last year to go with an OBP of .342 When you factor in the superior defense of Cameron (along with the league average defense of Hermida) it looks like an upgrade over Bay. I like it.

It's going to be lots of fun to watch an outfield of Cameron-Ellsbury-Drew.

cool beans

[Galaril]

I will chime and say I am happily shocked Lackey WOW! They must have been kepping that under there hats to do a misdirection on the ole Yanks in case they tried to drive the price up on us even if they were not all that interesting. So the Sox starting five at present Beckett Lackey Lester Dice K, and Buchholtz. That is pretty good. I would not mind them trading Dice K but his contract is a hindrance to say the least. Anyways, it sure gives them some room to make a deal for someone like Adrian Gonzalez or maybe Hanley though not sure where he would go unless they flipped Scutarro to the Marlins along with a bunch of prospects.

[Galaril]

I called Theo two weeks ago and gave him some advice, and it looks like he's listening to me. The Red Sox have signed Mike Cameron to a 2 year deal worth 15.5 million or so. It appears the plan will be to platoon him in leftfield with Jeremy Hermida to replace Jason Bay. Cameron hit 24 home runs last year to go with an OBP of .342 When you factor in the superior defense of Cameron (along with the league average defense of Hermida) it looks like an upgrade over Bay. I like it.

It's going to be lots of fun to watch an outfield of Cameron-Ellsbury-Drew.

I agree I like the utility of that outfield.

[dawgfan]

Sounds like the M's are sending (according to Jason Churchill) Phillipe Aumont, Tyson Gilles, Juan Ramirez and ....?
Churchill is hit and miss with his info. None of those guys would surprise me, but I'd be slightly surprised to see all three of them go. Not because Lee isn't awesome - he is - but because as a guy with only 1 year left on his current deal and word that his demands for a contract extension are very high, he doesn't hold nearly as much trade value as you might expect.

Aumont is the big name among those three. He's a tall guy that throws hard with a lot of sinking movement. The downside is he (supposedly) has a hip problem that limits his durability, and is a reason why the current M's staff shifted him to the bullpen; the other issue is his command is shaky. Plus, there are some concerns about his mechanics and how long his arm will stay healthy.

Ramirez is a nice sized pitcher with some decent results, but has neither outstanding results nor outstanding stuff. He's a guy that scouts think could turn into a pretty good pitcher, but he's not a top prospect.

Gillies, whatever. His ceiling is as a 4th OF who relies on speed and getting on base.

As an M's fan, I'm excited about this deal. I have enough trust in Zduriencik that I doubt they're giving up too much for Lee, and it of course is a nice boost for the rotation and shows this group is serious about getting the M's into contender status. And if they can't re-sign him, no big deal - they'll get a couple draft picks when he signs elsewhere, or trade him mid-season if they get a good enough offer.

[Dr. Sak]

Supposedly, Halladay will agree to an extension as part of the deal. Methinks that Lee was more determined to test the market whereas the Phils were Halladay's #1 choice for a future team.

Still debating if I like this. It depensd on the prospects we gave up, I guess.

Rumor has it...Drabek...not liking this.

Sources: Halladay May Cost Phils Lee, Drabek (http://www.csnphilly.com/pages/landing_09?Sources-Halladay-May-Cost-Phils-Lee-Drab=1&blockID=103216&feedID=704)

[RedKingGold]

I've heard so many rumors right now.

Now, I've heard that we are giving up Drabek, but getting Aumont in return (instead of Toronto getting Aumont).

Probably just have to wait how this all shakes out. Sounding more and more like two seperate deals instead of one three way deal.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Halladay will agree to an extension, they didn't feel they could get Lee to agree to one.

[Crapshoot]

This is just crazy. This is like fantasy league trading!

[DeToxRox]

The Cardinals have offered Matt Holliday a deal which would pay him $16MM per year for at least eight seasons, writes Joe Strauss of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch.

[Lathum]

The Cardinals have offered Matt Holliday a deal which would pay him $16MM per year for at least eight seasons, writes Joe Strauss of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch.

wow, that's a lot of years.

[BishopMVP]

I called Theo two weeks ago and gave him some advice, and it looks like he's listening to me. The Red Sox have signed Mike Cameron to a 2 year deal worth 15.5 million or so. It appears the plan will be to platoon him in leftfield with Jeremy Hermida to replace Jason Bay. Cameron hit 24 home runs last year to go with an OBP of .342 When you factor in the superior defense of Cameron (along with the league average defense of Hermida) it looks like an upgrade over Bay. I like it.

It's going to be lots of fun to watch an outfield of Cameron-Ellsbury-Drew.Only things I'd quibble with is that Hermida/Cameron is less likely to be a platoon in the traditional L/R sense and more Cameron/Drew getting a day off every week-10 games (with Ellsbury less occasionally) and Hermida stepping in with the requisite shifting of parts. Also, Hermida's probably below league average (certainly with the improvement of LF'ers across baseball recently) although not nearly as bad as Bay. It'll be interesting to see if Cameron or Ellsbury plays more often in center - Cameron's the better CF'er and Ellsbury's played more in left, but the RS may want Ellsbury to keep developing in center and I've seen some reports say Cameron agreed to play LF. (I assume we're not like the Grizzlies and Iverson and we talked about where Cameron would play before we signed him :) )

Overall, today has been a great fuck you to Boras and Bay's agents. Who's left in contention for the 2 big LF'ers - St. Louis, Seattle, NYM? If NYY doesn't try to jump in on Holliday, the bottom could fall out of those markets (even if St. Louis is reportedly offering an 8-year deal as these things happen.)

[stevew]

The Cardinals have offered Matt Holliday a deal which would pay him $16MM per year for at least eight seasons, writes Joe Strauss of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch.

That seems like a really big mistake.

[DaddyTorgo]

16mil a year for 8 years? and they can't even DH him at the end of it to increase his productivity by taking him out of the field?

fucking yikes

[stevew]

I guess if you look at the fact that he's been worth an average of 28m WAR$ the last 3 years, he's probably worth that much money, for around a 5 year deal. I just don't know how the hell you can reasonably trust the longevity of a player for 8 seasons.

[BishopMVP]

Longoria or Braun maybe, but a 30y/o OF'er??? I hope Boras still turns it down because $16m/y isn't enough and Holliday's sitting around until February.

[stevew]

Matt Capps got non-tendered the other day. Sort of surprising. Although I certainly won't miss him at all. Maybe he can regain some fastball movement and become effective again. Although really, there's no point in paying him the 3-4m he would have got in arbitration. Shitty teams don't need high priced closers(relatively speaking, and in pirate dollars of course).

[Oilers9911]

Why would Philly trade Lee for Halladay? It seems like trading an apple for an apple. They could of kept Lee and use there prospects for another trade instead.

Because Halladay is better than Lee. Lee is very good but Halladay has been an elite pitcher for a number of years.

[JPhillips]

But I'm not sure Halladay is better than Lee + Drabek/Happ.

[Dr. Sak]

But I'm not sure Halladay is better than Lee + Drabek/Happ.

Happ isn't going in this deal.

The specifics of the trades took some twists and turns on Monday. The latest structure would send three Phillies -- outfielder Michael Taylor, catching prospect Travis d'Arnaud and pitcher Kyle Drabek -- to Toronto, sources said.

Under that scenario, the Phillies would not have to include their top position-player prospect, Domonic Brown, and they would receive Seattle's top pitching prospect, Phillippe Aumont, who originally appeared ticketed for Toronto.

The Phillies would receive one other prospect -- believed to be 21-year-old outfielder Tyson Gillies -- from Seattle in the other trade for Lee, who is a year away from free agency.

Indications are that the Phillies also will receive a third prospect in the deal, but it wasn't clear Tuesday morning whether that player would come from Toronto or Seattle. However, ProspectInsider.com reported the third prospect is Mariners right-hander Juan Ramirez.

Initially, sources said, Toronto was to receive Aumont, d'Arnaud and another Phillies prospect in exchange for Halladay. The Phillies had balked at sending Brown.

f all of the names being bandied about wind up in this deal, the Phillies would get back what Baseball America rates as the Mariners' top two pitching prospects, plus an outfield prospect (Gillies) they view as being similar to Taylor. So although the Phillies would be giving up two of their most highly regarded prospects in Drabek and Taylor, they would look at this deal as not significantly depleting their system for the long haul.

[lungs]

BoSox fans, if age doesn't start catching up to Mike Cameron he's going to be a really good player for you all. I've had the pleasure of watching him the past few years with the Brewers. Lots of fans will probably complain that he strikes out too much but when you look at his numbers and add in his defense he will be a very productive player.

And to top things off, you can't get a much better guy in the clubhouse and in the community. I was sad to see him leave Milwaukee but we simply needed to put our money into pitching this offseason.

Good luck to Cam.

[RedKingGold]

Yeah Sak, that's the latest I've heard as well.

I'm not as ecstatic as I was yesterday about it, but I feel good about the trade overall. The key thing is Halladay at below market cost for three years > one year of Lee and uncertainty during the remaining time we can keep our core together. Propsects are likely a wash, although I really, really liked Drabek.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

You are getting Halladay below market cost?

[RedKingGold]

You are getting Halladay below market cost?

Three years at 20 million per, plus vesting options? Absolutely.

Cliff Lee will make more money than Halladay next off-season, I guarantee it.

EDIT: When I mean below market cost, I'm talking about overall years in the deal. Per year salary, yeah, Halladay will be making at to or close what C.C. and Johan are making. But, the fact that we won't be paying the guy late into his thirties is huge when/if he starts to age.

[RedKingGold]

Interesting side note: Pat Gillick was a GM for all three teams involved in the deal.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

RKG, that's true. I just mentally focused on the $20M, as I thought it would be a while before we saw a pitcher over that threshold. The years are great, of course.

[DaddyTorgo]

BoSox fans, if age doesn't start catching up to Mike Cameron he's going to be a really good player for you all. I've had the pleasure of watching him the past few years with the Brewers. Lots of fans will probably complain that he strikes out too much but when you look at his numbers and add in his defense he will be a very productive player.

And to top things off, you can't get a much better guy in the clubhouse and in the community. I was sad to see him leave Milwaukee but we simply needed to put our money into pitching this offseason.

Good luck to Cam.

Love good community and clubhouse guys!! If you want to root for him here it's okay...we won't tell anyone.

With just a two-year deal I hope that we will be getting him before age really starts to catch up, at least for this year.

If he put up good numbers for the Brewers in their monster stadium imagine what he can do with half his games in our lil bandbox?

Does he get elevation on his fly balls to leftfield is the question? Or do most of his shots to the outfield tend to be more of the "line drive" variety?

[lungs]

Love good community and clubhouse guys!! If you want to root for him here it's okay...we won't tell anyone.

With just a two-year deal I hope that we will be getting him before age really starts to catch up, at least for this year.

If he put up good numbers for the Brewers in their monster stadium imagine what he can do with half his games in our lil bandbox?

Does he get elevation on his fly balls to leftfield is the question? Or do most of his shots to the outfield tend to be more of the "line drive" variety?

Eh, I don't hate the Red Sox. I won't root for them, but I wont' root against them. I will root for Cam though!

I think Miller Park comes out as a neutral stadium so the increase might not be as big as you'd think but if I remember correctly, quite a few of Cameron's home runs were the variety that he hits a mile in the air that barely get out of the park or get out by a decent distance. I think his hitting style will play well with the Green Monster. Definitely has an uppercut swing and he'll strike out plenty.

I think playing him in Fenway's tiny left field does his defense a disservice. He operates best when he has plenty of room to cover.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

I would hope he plays CF when he plays and Jacoby goes to left.

[Dr. Sak]

Via Twitter...

OT: Buster_ESPN

Halladay's negotiations with the Phillies are complete; deal in place. He's taking a physical examination right now. 17 minutes ago from web

[molson]

I've always like Mike Cameron.

Unless the Red Sox make a move for a bat though, this will being the biggest pitching over hitting Sox team of my lifetime. Should be interesting.

[DaddyTorgo]

Eh, I don't hate the Red Sox. I won't root for them, but I wont' root against them. I will root for Cam though!

I think Miller Park comes out as a neutral stadium so the increase might not be as big as you'd think but if I remember correctly, quite a few of Cameron's home runs were the variety that he hits a mile in the air that barely get out of the park or get out by a decent distance. I think his hitting style will play well with the Green Monster. Definitely has an uppercut swing and he'll strike out plenty.

I think playing him in Fenway's tiny left field does his defense a disservice. He operates best when he has plenty of room to cover.

i think the odds are that he'll get some time in left but also some time in center...both him and ellsbury seem like they are more flexible OFers

[DaddyTorgo]

I've always like Mike Cameron.

Unless the Red Sox make a move for a bat though, this will being the biggest pitching over hitting Sox team of my lifetime. Should be interesting.

very true! well i mean the philosophy lately has been "exploit what is undervalued" and clearly they feel that pitching+defense is undervalued right now...

[path12]

God, I love having a good GM. Both Aumont and Gillies were blocked in the M's system. So depending on who the third prospect ends up being, worst case scenario gives us Lee to pair up with Felix for a year and then two 1st rounders when he signs elsewhere (you've gotta think he's a Type A).

Essentially, the M's give up one prospect for a year of Cliff Lee. Nice.

[Qwikshot]

Yeah Sak, that's the latest I've heard as well.

I'm not as ecstatic as I was yesterday about it, but I feel good about the trade overall. The key thing is Halladay at below market cost for three years > one year of Lee and uncertainty during the remaining time we can keep our core together. Propsects are likely a wash, although I really, really liked Drabek.

As a Phillies fan, I think what we forget is how cool it is for the fact that the Phillies are basically a news item. For years, this was a team that was an afterthought.

Losing Lee hurts, but if Amaro decides that the chances are better with Halladay, so be it.

Losing Drabek could hurt, but it's not like we're not getting prospects to put back into the farm system.

The team gets older but it's primed for at least one more charge into the breach, and I believe the risks are great but so is the reward. Furthermore, the team has drafted quite well as of recent, so I got the faith.

I read the philliesphan forum and "Ye gods" do they whine over the gutting of the farm system, but they are guys that overvalue every Phillies prospect.

[RedKingGold]

Exactly. Most talent evaluators had Drabek as a #2 or a #3, he's not projected to be the future ace of the team. That's Cole Hamels still with Happ as our #3 guy. Also, we're getting two solid pitching prospects in return for one blue chipper. Not horrible.

As far as Taylor goes, the biggest criticism in moving him is that he is major league level ready now. That's fine, but the Phillies are locked into Ibanez/Victorino/Werth for at least the next two years, and by then Brown will be ready to step in there. Meanwhile, the other prospect we're getting from the Mariners fills in quite nicely as a "Taylor of the future".

Lastly, adding Halladay and signing him gives us cost certainty for next year's free agency. It makes it more and more likely that we'll try to extend Werth and Rollins over the next season or so where we might not have had the payroll if we extended Lee.

[Qwikshot]

Exactly. Most talent evaluators had Drabek as a #2 or a #3, he's not projected to be the future ace of the team. That's Cole Hamels still with Happ as our #3 guy. Also, we're getting two solid pitching prospects in return for one blue chipper. Not horrible.

As far as Taylor goes, the biggest criticism in moving him is that he is major league level ready now. That's fine, but the Phillies are locked into Ibanez/Victorino/Werth for at least the next two years, and by then Brown will be ready to step in there. Meanwhile, the other prospect we're getting from the Mariners fills in quite nicely as a "Taylor of the future".

Lastly, adding Halladay and signing him gives us cost certainty for next year's free agency. It makes it more and more likely that we'll try to extend Werth and Rollins over the next season or so where we might not have had the payroll if we extended Lee.

it sounds as of now we're also getting a 3b prospect as well.

[DeToxRox]

The Jays already have a deal in place to trade Taylor to the A's for 3B Brett Wallace.

[Mustang]

All I know is that from a fantasy baseball aspect, in my NL only keeper league I'm getting ass raped this offseason (lost Scherzer, Drabek, Taylor and probably A. Gonzalez when he moves to the Red Sox)

[DaddyTorgo]

All I know is that from a fantasy baseball aspect, in my NL only keeper league I'm getting ass raped this offseason (lost Scherzer, Drabek, Taylor and probably A. Gonzalez when he moves to the Red Sox)

don't you have some sort of mechanism whereby you get compensation for traded players in the form of first-choice of players traded IN (drafted by say the overall rank of the player you lost - so if you lost the top-ranked guy you get the first pick)?

if not you ought to. that would at least likely net you Halladay for A. Gonzalez (IF he moves).

[JPhillips]

According to WFAN, the Mets are now officially eliminated from the 2010 playoffs.

[Young Drachma]

As much as this trade sucks, it's probably a much better deal than JP would've gotten this summer and if they didn't do it now, it's unlikely they'd have made a better move at any other point.

If nothing else, it's better than the previous deals we've lost aces with (Yes, that's you Roger...) and the Blue Jays blogs are telling me it'll be okay in just a year. I don't know if I buy it, but...we'll go with it.

[Galaril]

I've always like Mike Cameron.

Unless the Red Sox make a move for a bat though, this will being the biggest pitching over hitting Sox team of my lifetime. Should be interesting.

Yeah maybe they are going to implement Billy Ball in Boston or something.

[Mustang]

don't you have some sort of mechanism whereby you get compensation for traded players in the form of first-choice of players traded IN

Unfortunately no. It is a auction league so any guy you lose is just a guy lost.

[DaddyTorgo]

Unfortunately no. It is a auction league so any guy you lose is just a guy lost.

that's ridiculous. :eek:

[ISiddiqui]

Here is Fangraph's take on the Philly-Toronto-Seattle deal:

The Real Big Trade | FanGraphs Baseball (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-real-big-trade)

Let's just say, they didn't like the Lee to Seattle part of the trade for Philly.

[DaddyTorgo]

John Lackey Inks with Boston | FanGraphs Baseball (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/john-lackey-inks-with-boston)

They're not very bullish on Lackey either.

On the flipside they think the Cameron deal was a steal.

Cameron of Boston | FanGraphs Baseball (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/cameron-of-boston)
Bay Vs Cameron | FanGraphs Baseball (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/bay-vs-cameron)

[sterlingice]

I pretty much agree with everything you just said. I'm not trying to discount the Angels as much as I'm impressed with the direction the Mariners are going in.

I have been so darn impressed with Jack Z so far in his time in Seattle.

SI

[RedKingGold]

Here is Fangraph's take on the Philly-Toronto-Seattle deal:

The Real Big Trade | FanGraphs Baseball (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-real-big-trade)

Let's just say, they didn't like the Lee to Seattle part of the trade for Philly.

What is conveniently forgotten in that analysis is that Seattle is getting a one-year rental for Lee.

Really, the deal should be looked at as two seperate trades: (1) what the Phillies gave up to get Halladay for three years; and (2) what the Mariners gave up to get Lee for one year.

I'm not sure the market for Lee at one year is as strong as people are claiming. Heck, look at what the Phillies gave up to get Lee last year. It's not like we sacrificed big prospects to get Cliff for one and a half years. Is it really fair to expect a team to trade us more for only one full season?

I get the feeling that what motivated this deal now was that the Phillies were negotiate an extension as a condition to the trade, whereas Toronto would not allow this before the 2008 trade deadline.

If Riccardi had, then the Phillies would've done this same deal in July and possibly even given up a bit more. I think the last standing offer to the Jays was Drabek, Taylor, and Lou Marson. I bet the Phillies would've given up more if Riccardi hadn't been a dolt and allow the Phillies to renegotiate Halladay.

[ISiddiqui]

What exactly do you mean that Lee only being under contract for one year is "conveniently" forgotten? Did you read the article?

especially this part:


The Cliff Lee (http://www.fangraphs.com/players.aspx?lastname=Cliff%20Lee) to Seattle portion of this trade just seems very light in return for the Phillies. They’re getting two power arms with a lot of questions marks and a speedy center fielder without a lot of power. None of these guys are top tier prospects. This is the best Philadelphia could have gotten for Lee? Really? A pu-pu platter of interesting, high-risk guys not really close to the majors for a Cy Young-quality pitcher who is already well on his way to Type A free agency?

And, even if that’s true, why clear $8 million from the books by trading Lee? Surely, you could have moved Joe Blanton (http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=4849&position=P) without eating any of his salary, even if you didn’t love the deals being offered. Or, how about this – don’t sign J.C. Romero (http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=754&position=P), Brian Schneider (http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=795&position=C), and Ross Gload (http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1538&position=1B), whose 2010 salaries are about equal to Lee’s. Replace those three reserves with league minimum guys and you’ve saved enough money to keep Lee around.

[RedKingGold]

Oh, wait. Isn't this the same guy who thought that Ibanez was a bad signing last year and that the Devil Rays were getting a bargain with Pat Burrell?

[RedKingGold]

Oh, and as far as the three players highlighted above, J.C. Romero was signed before the 2009 off-season, and his salary is $4.25 million for 2010. Only Schneider and Gload were signed this season. Romero is basically radioactive due to injury and that whole steroid thing.

Of course, he conveniently misses that as well.

[RedKingGold]

Lastly, I get the feeling that Blanton is/was also extremely difficult to move as well due to the 7 million he's likely to make in arbitration.

Phillies probably reason that Blanton's 12 or so wins at 4.50 ERA with the prospects from the Lee deal > Lee's 18 or 19 wins at 3.00 ERA with prospects from Blanton deal.

[ISiddiqui]

You are thinking of Eric Seidman, while Dave Cameron wrote this article... but let us not get those facts in the way.

[RedKingGold]

You are thinking of Eric Seidman, while Dave Cameron wrote this article... but let us not get those facts in the way.

Same website, yes?

[ISiddiqui]

And? So everyone who writes on ESPN.com is exactly the same as anyone else who writes for ESPN.com?

Or is this just another "HOW DARE SOMEONE SAY MY TEAM MADE A BAD DEAL" post, and damn the facts?

[DaddyTorgo]

Same website, yes?

you're on the same website with Flasch and MBBF - would you like to be grouped in with either of them based on that?

[RedKingGold]

And? So everyone who writes on ESPN.com is exactly the same as anyone else who writes for ESPN.com?

Thinking in terms of baseball, Peter Gammons was the only writer/contributor to ESPN who stuck out as having seperate credibility from ESPN. All of the other Jayson Starks, Buster Olneys, and Keith Laws of the world all suck from the ESPN teet, so they are indistinguishable in my mind (as are Heyman and Verducci for SI).

Or is this just another "HOW DARE SOMEONE SAY MY TEAM MADE A BAD DEAL" post, and damn the facts?

Nah, if it's a bad deal, I'll say it's a bad deal. If the Phillies had not been able to sign Halladay to an extension, but kept Lee and Halladay for only 2010, I'd be on here saying its a bad deal. I'm not one of those who think that selling out for 2010 and 2010 alone is the way for the Phillies to go.

In the end, we're arguing about prospects man. Prospects, not the real major leaguers. But prospects? Prospects. I can't believe we're talking about prospects. :)

I guess my cynicism towards that blogger is that it's simply way too early to debate the merits of any deal when the major criticism is the value of prospects any team got back.

Oh, and as for "facts". What you are promoting is not "facts" but ways to state the truth to bolster your own opinion. I can do that as well. :D

you're on the same website with Flasch and MBBF - would you like to be grouped in with either of them based on that?

Shudder. Good point. Good thing I don't pimp FOFC to my real world life. :D

[JS19]

What I can't figure out is why the Phils just didn't ride it out with Halladay and Lee. Sign Halladay to his extension, let Lee walk after the yr and get the comp picks. If I were a Phillies fan I would probably be a bit upset with management not going for it. I know they need to look towards the future, but in professional sports, you gotta strike while the iron's hot. Even when Lee walks, you still get the comp pick, so it would be almost a wash, anyhow.

[path12]

You are thinking of Eric Seidman, while Dave Cameron wrote this article... but let us not get those facts in the way.

It would be fair to note here that Cameron also is half of the USS Mariner blog, so he may not be totally impartial in this particular matter......though generally he's pretty consistent with what he values in players.

[BishopMVP]

Lots of fans will probably complain that he strikes out too much but when you look at his numbers and add in his defense he will be a very productive player.Oh sweet, a black JD Drew. That'll go over fantastically with Red Sox Nation. :popcorn:

[DaddyTorgo]

Oh sweet, a black JD Drew. That'll go over fantastically with Red Sox Nation. :popcorn:
:confused:

[BishopMVP]

:confused:People already irrationally hate JD Drew even though he's been one of our best offensive players and our best/2nd best defender in recent years, mainly because of the perception he strikes out too much/keeps the bat on his shoulder. Add in the (alleged) racism that is there in certain sections of (the/any) fanbase and it's going to be a loooooong year if Cameron comes out of the gate replacing Jason Bay hitting anything less than .300 with a few strikeouts in big situations.

[DaddyTorgo]

People already irrationally hate JD Drew even though he's been one of our best offensive players and our best/2nd best defender in recent years, mainly because of the perception he strikes out too much/keeps the bat on his shoulder. Add in the (alleged) racism that is there in certain sections of (the/any) fanbase and it's going to be a loooooong year if Cameron comes out of the gate replacing Jason Bay hitting anything less than .300 with a few strikeouts in big situations.

guess i just don't see the racism as much.

and i don't think cameron will do that at all - the front office should do a good job getting out in front of it and setting the expectation for the fans

[Galaril]

guess i just don't see the racism as much.

and i don't think cameron will do that at all - the front office should do a good job getting out in front of it and setting the expectation for the fans

In the Boston area you don't? Really????

[DeToxRox]

If Mike Cameron doesn't start the year 1 for 3 he won't ever get to .300 on the year.

Still a good signing though for the Sox.

[lungs]

Oh goodness, definitely be prepared for Cameron to leave his bat on his shoulder and to not come through in some key situations. He can be frustrating at times but when you look at his overall body of work, there's no denying he's a quality player.

Unfortunately, fans will look at his batting average (he'll never be a .300 hitter, more .250-260) and he'll strike out quite a bit and think that he stinks.

I still remember Brewer fans bitching that we kept Mike Cameron around and that he blocked Tony Gwynn Jr......

[BishopMVP]

In the Boston area you don't? Really????Like I've said before, it really depends on the circles you run in. Amongst the younger and more educated crowds it's a non-issue, and from what I know of DT - 20's, went to BC, lives in Wellesley, works at a (white-collar) start-up, types coherent posts that accurately convey a point - he almost certainly does run in those crowds (as do I.) If you want to start talking about the idiots that call into WEEI (and I avoid them as much as possible) or the older fans, then yes it is there. (If - and that's a big if - I'm remembering them correctly) I still don't entirely get your/your wife's personal experiences with racism - I've never seen it against Asians, at least ones that speak English - but I don't doubt there are some people out there.

[DaddyTorgo]

Like I've said before, it really depends on the circles you run in. Amongst the younger and more educated crowds it's a non-issue, and from what I know of DT - 20's, went to BC, lives in Wellesley, works at a (white-collar) start-up, types coherent posts that accurately convey a point - he almost certainly does run in those crowds (as do I.) If you want to start talking about the idiots that call into WEEI (and I avoid them as much as possible) or the older fans, then yes it is there. (If - and that's a big if - I'm remembering them correctly) I still don't entirely get your/your wife's personal experiences with racism - I've never seen it against Asians, at least ones that speak English - but I don't doubt there are some people out there.


Awww thanks Bishop!! :D

I'm actually 30 now though.

You're right though - I definitely run in those crowds, but I suppose amongst the "idiot fringe" it's definitely there (as like you said I suspect it is in most cities). I guess I just like to think that the idiot fringe is slowly aging and dieing off.

[BishopMVP]

Awww thanks Bishop!! :D

I'm actually 30 now though.

You're right though - I definitely run in those crowds, but I suppose amongst the "idiot fringe" it's definitely there (as like you said I suspect it is in most cities). I guess I just like to think that the idiot fringe is slowly aging and dieing off.If I can still pass for 21, you can go 20's. On the last part, I can only hope so, but we're pulling this thread off track. The main point of my snarky remark was less the race and more the similar playing style to JD Drew.

In addition to going after defense and pitching, the Red Sox are clearly targeting players with a high # of pitches per at bat - so the comparison to the A's is fairly apt. (EDIT to add numbers {last years rank in AL, name, pitches per at bat)

1st - Youk (4.42)
2nd - Nick Johnson (4.38)
6th - Hermida (4.21)
9th - Ortiz (4.19)
11th - Drew (4.13)
15th - Scutaro (4.07)
20th - Vmart (4.05)
32nd - Pedroia (3.96)
32nd - Cameron (3.96)
54th - Ellsbury (3.77)

Also reportedly the 8-year Cardinals offer leaked (by Boras?) is wrong and the Cards are sticking to 5 years because they don't think they're competing with anyone right now.

For fun a list of (mostly) potentially available* "power hitters" in the next 2 years by road OPS (*not intended to be a referendum on every players availabilty - some players are thrown in for comparison purposes)
<table style="border-collapse: collapse; width: 112pt;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="149"><tbody><tr style="height: 12.75pt;"><td style="height: 12.75pt; width: 80pt;" height="17" width="106">Name</td> <td class="xl24" style="width: 32pt;" width="43">OPS </td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Albert Pujols</td> <td class="xl24" align="right">1.051</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Adrian Gonzalez</td> <td class="xl24" align="right">0.935</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Prince Fielder</td> <td class="xl24" align="right">0.924</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Joey Votto</td> <td class="xl24" align="right">0.908</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Miguel Cabrera</td> <td class="xl24" align="right">0.908</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Joe Mauer</td> <td class="xl24" align="right">0.901</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Hanley Ramirez</td> <td class="xl24" align="right">0.898</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Jason Bay</td> <td class="xl24" align="right">0.898</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Todd Helton</td> <td class="xl24" align="right">0.885</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Adam Dunn</td> <td class="xl24" align="right">0.885</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Justin Morneau</td> <td class="xl24" align="right">0.865</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Brad Hawpe</td> <td class="xl24" align="right">0.864</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Derrek Lee</td> <td class="xl24" align="right">0.861</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Hideki Matsui</td> <td class="xl24" align="right">0.856</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Shin-Soo Choo</td> <td class="xl24" align="right">0.855</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Magglio Ordonez</td> <td class="xl24" align="right">0.853</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Victor Martinez</td> <td class="xl24" align="right">0.847</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Jayson Werth</td> <td class="xl24" align="right">0.830</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Carlos Pena</td> <td class="xl24" align="right">0.828</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Grady Sizemore</td> <td class="xl24" align="right">0.820</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Milton Bradley</td> <td class="xl24" align="right">0.817</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Matt Holliday</td> <td class="xl24" align="right">0.808
</td></tr></tbody></table>

[stevew]

I dunno if he's started to degrade yet. Anyways, just based on the limited amount of baseball I watch, if Cameron couldn't get to a ball, pretty much nobody can.

So I dunno why you'd put him in anywhere but center.

[Logan]

So I dunno why you'd put him in anywhere but center.

If you want to see your star centerfielder's skull slammed into?

[miked]

Awww thanks Bishop!! :D

I'm actually 30 now though.

You're right though - I definitely run in those crowds, but I suppose amongst the "idiot fringe" it's definitely there (as like you said I suspect it is in most cities). I guess I just like to think that the idiot fringe is slowly aging and dieing off.

The idiot fringe is still there and thriving. I lived in the North End, where a non-white person was about as rare as a Sox World Series win. Most of the idiot fringe has moved out to Revere, Sommerville, and the likes, but it is still very present. My wife mentioned when we live there that everyone seems to joke about how racist the south is compared to Boston, but it is mainly because Boston is still highly segregated.

Anyway, while there is plenty of racism and the Sox have been historically mostly white, nobody cares about color so long as you're hitting.

[Mr. Sparkle]

So yeah, the Mariners and GM Jack Zduriencik continue to shock, amaze, and awe. Milton Bradley for Carlos freakin' Silva. I know Bradley had almost no trade value, but man. Carlos Silva is TERRIBLE. Suck for the Cubs and their fans, especially when it looks like they're going to spend what little money they saved on Marlon Byrd.

I am really happy for Seattle fans, though. If there's a sports town that could use something to cheer for and a team to have hope in, it's Seattle. And the scary thing is, I don't think they're done yet.

[Mr. Sparkle]

Also, I really, really wish the Giants had signed Nick Johnson. Apparently they offered more money than the Yankees, but weren't willing to go to 2 years. I'd have given him the extra year, but I completely understand why they didn't. I also understand why Johnson would take a little less to sign with New York. He has a chance to put up some serious numbers in that lineup and that ballpark, which would probably earn him a nice contract next year. Assuming he stays healthy, of course. Nick Johnson could suffer a career ending injury while he's in the act of putting his signature on the contract, so that's a ginormous if.

[dawgfan]

I am really happy for Seattle fans, though. If there's a sports town that could use something to cheer for and a team to have hope in, it's Seattle. And the scary thing is, I don't think they're done yet.
I think many of us M's fans are still kind of in shock - after 4 years of damn near the worst GM in the game, we now have a guy who's making his case for being one of the best.

Bradley has a lot of risk, but he's got vastly higher upside than does Silva, and he fills a hole whereas Silva was dead weight.

[DeToxRox]

Apparently the Yanks are close to a deal for a SP that isn't a salary dump guy.

[DeToxRox]

Also, M and Jay's stay busy as the M's trade Morrow to Toronto for League and a prospect.

Seems like a very odd move for Seattle.

[dawgfan]

Also, M and Jay's stay busy as the M's trade Morrow to Toronto for League and a prospect.

Seems like a very odd move for Seattle.
I've learned to trust Zdurenciek, so I have to assume the prospect is pretty good.

From a 2010 performance standpoint, there might not be a big difference between Morrow and League - League has the toolset to be a really good reliever with his high groundball rate and high swinging strike rate. Morrow has yet to prove he can be a consistently good SP. But RP's are volatile, and even though League has the FIP to have great results, you're still talking about limited innings (relatively speaking) where bad luck can really skew the numbers.

I'm sad to see Morrow shipped off, as it means the M's didn't get the stud SP out of him they hoped for when he was drafted. But intellectually, I've been prepared for a while now of the likelihood that he'd be dealt, as he's more likely to lose value moving forward than gain it.

Seems unlikely the prospect is Wallace given how hard Toronto worked to get him back, but he's a guy that would make a lot of sense for the M's as he'd slide in as our 1B.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Braves must have a hard-on for shitty OFs, as they trade Javier Vazquez for Melky Cabrera (plus a prospect or two, but nothing good as far as I can tell).

[Dr. Sak]

In all seriousness, are the Marlins the 2nd best team in the NL East?

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Cashman has had one hell of an off-season.

[DaddyTorgo]

Braves must have a hard-on for shitty OFs, as they trade Javier Vazquez for Melky Cabrera (plus a prospect or two, but nothing good as far as I can tell).

really? that's a fucking giveaway to the yankees. how is JV's contract?

[ISiddiqui]

Holy Fuck!! Are you kidding me, Braves?

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Contract is 1/$12 or so, I believe. The prospect is Arodys Vizcaino who is very young but done well so far.

[DaddyTorgo]

that's redonkulous.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Holy Fuck!! Are you kidding me, Braves?

Nope, that's what happens when you've got a GM that's in so far over his head he can't see up.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Contract is 1/$12 or so, I believe. The prospect is Arodys Vizcaino who is very young but done well so far.

ESPN is saying the prospect is Mike Dunn while the Braves throw in Boone Logan, but bloggers in NY seem to be saying Dunn + another prospect (maybe that's where Vizcaino comes in?)

[JonInMiddleGA]

But have no fear Braves fans, we've invited Joe Thurston to camp. Suddenly Greg Norton's plate appearances will look much better.

[wahoomac]

What does this mean for the Braves with Derek Lowe? I was hoping the Braves would trade him, since he was the "worst" of the 6 starters they had, and he had been grumbling about maybe being the odd-man-out (with 3 years $45 million left on his contract). With Vasquez gone, I guess they are still going to have to use Lowe, but now he is pissed off at management for looking to trade him after only one year. Of course, I think he should man-up and get over himself and pitch a little better if he wants to be treated right. Seems like it's getting to be a cluster fuck in Atlanta these days...

[lungs]

Who in their right mind would have traded for Lowe without Atlanta picking up a large part of the contract?

I suppose that doesn't excuse Atlanta for trading Javy Vazquez for nothing all that inspiring.

[Big Fo]

Fuck you Frank Wren. Goddamn.

[Crapshoot]

Jesus Christ, Frank Wren isn't very smart, eh? Surely you could do better for Vasquez, or eat a chunk of Lowe's salary and move him.

Edit: to note, the arm is what BP calls the Yankees #2 prospect, and what BA calls their no 3. I just don't see the appeal of Melky Cabrera to the Braves.

[Chief Rum]

Angels will take on Lowe in exchange for Gary Matthews Jr. :)

[Galaril]

The idiot fringe is still there and thriving. I lived in the North End, where a non-white person was about as rare as a Sox World Series win. Most of the idiot fringe has moved out to Revere, Sommerville, and the likes, but it is still very present. My wife mentioned when we live there that everyone seems to joke about how racist the south is compared to Boston, but it is mainly because Boston is still highly segregated.

Anyway, while there is plenty of racism and the Sox have been historically mostly white, nobody cares about color so long as you're hitting.

Yes this is true. I was going to post a longer reply to Bishop but figured what is the point. I have had similar discussions with my own inlaws. I am white, affluent (now) and associated with similar "crowds" as Bishop noted but am slightly older than he and DT 41. I lived in Newton but was born in Worcester and have to say that I found the white collar collar people in Newton shockingly as much if not more bigoted than the blue collar types from the Worcester area though Newton people are obviously more educated. So, the point that just because someone is highly educated and rich makes them more tolerant is ridiculous. YMMV. Does anyone think if Randy Moss was a hard nosed scrappy type white player ala Welker he would of been berated last week by the fans and the media? Anyways, two white guys arguing about racism in Boston is like Tiger Woods and Charlie Sheen discussing the finer points of monogamous relationships.

[DaddyTorgo]

Yes this is true. I was going to post a longer reply to Bishop but figured what is the point. I have had similar discussions with my own inlaws. I am white, affluent (now) and associated with similar "crowds" as Bishop noted but am slightly older than he and DT 41. I lived in Newton but was born in Worcester and have to say that I found the white collar collar people in Newton shockingly as much if not more bigoted than the blue collar types from the Worcester area though Newton people are obviously more educated. So, the point that just because someone is highly educated and rich makes them more tolerant is ridiculous. YMMV. Does anyone think if Randy Moss was a hard nosed scrappy type white player ala Welker he would of been berated last week by the fans and the media? Anyways, two white guys arguing about racism in Boston is like Tiger Woods and Charlie Sheen discussing the finer points of monogamous relationships.

:lol:

[Galaril]

:lol:

I did not by the way mean to insult any of the Boston regulars here like yourself DT or Bishop. In fact, my post was not specifically meant for anyone here but was more a dangerous generalization.

[DaddyTorgo]

I did not by the way mean to insult any of the Boston regulars here like yourself DT or Bishop. My post was not specifically meant for anyone here in fact but more a dangerous generalization.

Oh I know. No worries.

I don't think any of us who post on here from MA necessarily fit into that stereotype actualy. Those are the sort of people who frankly...spend more time at the bars in Southie than they do on their computers.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

There is definitely something to be said for segregation in Boston. I've never really seen racism out here, but at the same time I don't see a Benetton ad either.

[Karlifornia]

I'm convinced whatever the Giants wind up doing will be a disaster. They'll overpay for Bay and then he'll either get hurt or start his career decline early.

[JS19]

Big things coming out of NY. Mets are close to signing R.A. Dickey to minor league deal.

[BishopMVP]

Yes this is true. I was going to post a longer reply to Bishop but figured what is the point. I have had similar discussions with my own inlaws. I am white, affluent (now) and associated with similar "crowds" as Bishop noted but am slightly older than he and DT 41. I lived in Newton but was born in Worcester and have to say that I found the white collar collar people in Newton shockingly as much if not more bigoted than the blue collar types from the Worcester area though Newton people are obviously more educated. So, the point that just because someone is highly educated and rich makes them more tolerant is ridiculous. YMMV.(I do find it funny that I'm the one arguing less racism here since my original comment was was pointing out that Mike Cameron's race wouldn't help him amongst the vocal portion of the fanbase, but...)

For the record, in my experience the age thing and where someone grew up is more important than the town rich older people have moved to. Concord is clearly a racist town (against black and hispanic people) on some level, albeit improving, especially given that a certain part of the growth in the 70's/80's between the 95/495 belts was in reaction to school busing - when I was in a 1200 person HS (99-03) I could count the non-METCO black kids on my hands. But A) very few people I knew in HS or from college have ever said or meant anything racist (while I have seen it numerous times at bars or parties by idiots my age from a Revere or Plymouth or Billerica) and B) on the specific point I've just never seen it in my town (or the neighboring ones) against people of Asian descent, who are actually over-represented (while I have seen it numerous times by older bigots from Concord or other rich "white" towns against black and/or hispanic people, and even jewish ones). Or heard about it from any of my asian friends, while I have heard stories from black, hispanic and jewish ones, although hey, YMMV and all that. Self-segregation in housing and the social scene definitely occurs, but it's hard for me to classify that as racism as I've been to predominantly asian, black, hispanic and jewish events and not felt uncomfortable.

It'd also be intriguing to break down the Wes Welker/Randy Moss (or Manny/Jason Bay, which would belie miked's point, or Bonds/other alleged sterois users nationally) dynamic and see how much race has to do with it vs. "high-paid star"/"scrappy underdog" or "answers questions"/"is a dick, particularly to the media", but I have no desire to listen to any idiot who thinks Randy Moss is a worse player for the Patriots than Wes Welker when a large part of Welker getting open is because Moss is double-teamed every play, and lastly let's not pretend the scrappy white underdog is a Boston invention (see: WS MVP David Eckstein, etc). (Also FTR DT, as much as Southie is the go to stereotype, it's actually gentrifying really quickly - just as poor/blue collar white people were pushed out of the North End - between Asians spreading out from the South End and yuppies who want an easy T ride to downtown without the exorbitant costs of the city itself/Cambridge/the outer green line.)

Oh well, let's focus on what's important here - the Yankees just added an SP who averaged 200+ IP and 200 K's a year for the last decade (who will be Type A after the year) for a 4th outfielder and a (very good) single-A pitcher. Plus it probably opens up LF in NYY for Holliday if they want that, and some speculate the $8m in savings for ATL will be used to sign Jason Bay, bumping our compensation for Wagner down to the 2nd round (although we don't lose the Braves 1st-rounder). Let's hope Vasquez regresses hard on ERA - 4 of his last 6 years were 4.42+ - and he did have his worst season in 11 years when pitching for the Yankees previously, but there's very little to like here from a 2010 Red Sox (or Rays/any other AL contender) perspective.

[Karlifornia]

I find this Boston debate interesting. I lived there for a year, but was too young to really be aware of the racism that may or may not exist, but does exist in the places you'd imagine it not to. I had some family that lived in Brockton. Cool place from what I remember. Anyway, that's all I got that subject.

In speaking of black folk, I'm calling a breakout year for Cameron Maybin.

[Logan]

In speaking of black folk, I'm calling a breakout year for Cameron Maybin.

His lack of fundamentals will surely do him in.

[DaddyTorgo]

(I do find it funny that I'm the one arguing less racism here since my original comment was was pointing out that Mike Cameron's race wouldn't help him amongst the vocal portion of the fanbase, but...)

For the record, in my experience the age thing and where someone grew up is more important than the town rich older people have moved to. Concord is clearly a racist town (against black and hispanic people) on some level, albeit improving, especially given that a certain part of the growth in the 70's/80's between the 95/495 belts was in reaction to school busing - when I was in a 1200 person HS (99-03) I could count the non-METCO black kids on my hands. But A) very few people I knew in HS or from college have ever said or meant anything racist (while I have seen it numerous times at bars or parties by idiots my age from a Revere or Plymouth or Billerica) and B) on the specific point I've just never seen it in my town (or the neighboring ones) against people of Asian descent, who are actually over-represented (while I have seen it numerous times by older bigots from Concord or other rich "white" towns against black and/or hispanic people, and even jewish ones). Or heard about it from any of my asian friends, while I have heard stories from black, hispanic and jewish ones, although hey, YMMV and all that. Self-segregation in housing and the social scene definitely occurs, but it's hard for me to classify that as racism as I've been to predominantly asian, black, hispanic and jewish events and not felt uncomfortable.

It'd also be intriguing to break down the Wes Welker/Randy Moss (or Manny/Jason Bay, which would belie miked's point, or Bonds/other alleged sterois users nationally) dynamic and see how much race has to do with it vs. "high-paid star"/"scrappy underdog" or "answers questions"/"is a dick, particularly to the media", but I have no desire to listen to any idiot who thinks Randy Moss is a worse player for the Patriots than Wes Welker when a large part of Welker getting open is because Moss is double-teamed every play, and lastly let's not pretend the scrappy white underdog is a Boston invention (see: WS MVP David Eckstein, etc). (Also FTR DT, as much as Southie is the go to stereotype, it's actually gentrifying really quickly - just as poor/blue collar white people were pushed out of the North End - between Asians spreading out from the South End and yuppies who want an easy T ride to downtown without the exorbitant costs of the city itself/Cambridge/the outer green line.)

Oh well, let's focus on what's important here - the Yankees just added an SP who averaged 200+ IP and 200 K's a year for the last decade (who will be Type A after the year) for a 4th outfielder and a (very good) single-A pitcher. Plus it probably opens up LF in NYY for Holliday if they want that, and some speculate the $8m in savings for ATL will be used to sign Jason Bay, bumping our compensation for Wagner down to the 2nd round (although we don't lose the Braves 1st-rounder). Let's hope Vasquez regresses hard on ERA - 4 of his last 6 years were 4.42+ - and he did have his worst season in 11 years when pitching for the Yankees previously, but there's very little to like here from a 2010 Red Sox (or Rays/any other AL contender) perspective.

oh i know - i have an ex co-worker who lives on the border of Southie. I was just playing up the stereotype of Southie bars...mainly because I couldn't think of anywhere else to say (although Revere would have worked).

[DaddyTorgo]

the fact that every other team gets themselves over a financial barrel and then is forced to trade good-to-decent players to the Yankeees for crap prospects just to shed salary is disgusting.and irresponsible.

[Logan]

the fact that every other team gets themselves over a financial barrel and then is forced to trade good-to-decent players to the Yankeees for crap prospects just to shed salary is disgusting.and irresponsible.

Are we talking about Vazquez here?

[DaddyTorgo]

Are we talking about Vazquez here?

yeah

[miked]

Obviously the trade of Vazquez signals the Braves believe Hudson to be back in form. I can't believe they picked up his insane option (12M?? 15M??) and didn't pay to get rid of Lowe. Trading Vazquez was horrible, trading him for an older version of Jordan Schaeffer or whoever else they have in AAA is even worse. I mean, I guess that's what happens when you wait for Lackey to be signed, Halladay and Lee to be traded, and all the teams with money to spend have already gotten their pitchers.

They also non-tendered Church, meaning they gave away Francoeur for nothing, and are paying Kenshin 6.7M to be a 5th starter/long reliever. What a dreadful offseason.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Braves sign Troy Glaus to play 1B.
Report: Braves sign Troy Glaus to play first base *| ajc.com (http://www.ajc.com/sports/atlanta-braves/report-braves-sign-troy-253704.html)

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Nothing says buzzkill like the announcement that your team has signed a free agent to play centerfield who batted .243 with 2 HR's and 18 RBI's last year.

[DaddyTorgo]

Nothing says buzzkill like the announcement that your team has signed a free agent to play centerfield who batted .243 with 2 HR's and 18 RBI's last year.

ewwww

[sterlingice]

Nothing says buzzkill like the announcement that your team has signed a free agent to play centerfield who batted .243 with 2 HR's and 18 RBI's last year.

How about signing a starting catcher who has done the following the last 2 season (.246/.327/.324 and .241/.331/.305) when you have a guy who can did .273/.318/.442 last year? Did I mention the new guy is a 35 year old C and he is signed to a 2 year contract? Good job, GMDM

SI

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

How about signing a starting catcher who has done the following the last 2 season (.246/.327/.324 and .241/.331/.305) when you have a guy who can did .273/.318/.442 last year? Did I mention the new guy is a 35 year old C and he is signed to a 2 year contract? Good job, GMDM

SI

Yeah, I know. The notion behind the signing is that his defense should save us quite a few runs given our passed ball issues last year, but you're doing to have to do some major stat crunching to justify the decrease in offense that move brings in. I hope it ends up being some fantastic surprise, but I'm not holding my breath.

[lungs]

Heh, Royals fans, have fun with Jason Kendall. His supposed top attributes involve his handling of a pitching and making contact as a hitter.

To brush one thing aside rather quickly, sure Kendall puts a bat on the ball but one quick glance at his batting line will tell you flat out that the guy can't hit.

And if he called such a good game, why the hell did the Brewers have one of the worst pitching staffs in all of baseball last year?

To make matters worse, he insists on playing every single day. He must have naked pictures of every manager he's played for because I guarantee you the backup catcher for KC will disappear next year.

Look on the bright side, in KC at least you have the DH so it's not like having two pitchers batting in your lineup. Then again, if Yuniesky Betancourt is starting at SS......

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Heh, Royals fans, have fun with Jason Kendall. His supposed top attributes involve his handling of a pitching and making contact as a hitter.

To brush one thing aside rather quickly, sure Kendall puts a bat on the ball but one quick glance at his batting line will tell you flat out that the guy can't hit.

And if he called such a good game, why the hell did the Brewers have one of the worst pitching staffs in all of baseball last year?

To make matters worse, he insists on playing every single day. He must have naked pictures of every manager he's played for because I guarantee you the backup catcher for KC will disappear next year.

Look on the bright side, in KC at least you have the DH so it's not like having two pitchers batting in your lineup. Then again, if Yuniesky Betancourt is starting at SS......

There's no need to beat us like a rented mule when we openly admit that our team sucks. :D

[dawgfan]

Also, M and Jay's stay busy as the M's trade Morrow to Toronto for League and a prospect.

Seems like a very odd move for Seattle.
Interesting post by Dave Cameron today at the USSMariner blog - his speculation is that the Morrow for League/Chavez deal was actually part of the Lee/Halladay/etc. mega-deal, but announced later to work out some final details (especially considering the 72-hour window Philly had to negotiate with Halladay).

Be interesting to hear of Jack Z confirms this or not, but the theory makes some sense.

http://ussmariner.com/2009/12/23/choose-your-own-conclusion/

[RedKingGold]

I approve of the Braves trade.

[Logan]

Bay to the Mets - 4 years, $16.5MM per. Announcement next week.

[Arles]

I like the move for the Mets. Hopefully, this means Holliday will sign with the Cards soon.

[Galaril]

Geez 16.5M a year for Bay? Glad the Sox didn't give him that.

[DaddyTorgo]

seriously

[ISiddiqui]

Well it is only $1.5 mil a year more than Red Sox offered... and to franchises to the Mets and Red Sox, $1.5 mil a year is nothing much.

[JPhillips]

Given the revolt of the fanbase over not getting any pitching they pretty much had to sign Bay.

[Ramzavail]

Lets see him try to pull one out of Citifield.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Well it is only $1.5 mil a year more than Red Sox offered... and to franchises to the Mets and Red Sox, $1.5 mil a year is nothing much.

I think the real difference is the "easily vesting" 5th year.

http://twitter.com/nyp_joelsherman/status/7169369634

[Dr. Sak]

The Mets just went from being 18 GB to 15 GB the Phillies next year.

[Atocep]

The Mets have no choice really but to go for broke the next 2-3 years. I'd rather have seen Holliday come to NY, but I'll wait and see what else Omar fucks up before I judge this deal.

Considering the fact the Mets aren't going to have anywhere near as much bad luck with injuries next year and the Phillies offense is likely to regress, I think the Mets are probably going to be overlooked heading into next season. The Phillies are definitely the favorites, but with a healthy Beltran, Reyes, Wright, Santana, KRod, and Bay it doesn't take a hell of a lot more to at least get into position to take the wild card.