Juicing: Who Would Make you Sad?

[terpkristin]

With all the allegations and admissions of late from Mark McGwire (and everybody in the past!), are there any players that if it came out that they juiced, you'd be completely disheartened?

For me, it's Cal Ripken, Jr. Yes, I'm a Boston fan through-and-through, but Cal has always had a sweet spot in my heart (and let's be honest, I want my local teams to win, unless they're playing Boston!).

Any other "near and dear" players?

/tk

[Rizon]

Takeru Kobayashi

[Toddzilla]

Ryne Sandberg - I'd probably break down and cry.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Greg Maddux. Probably Julio Franco

Otherwise, I don't know that there's really anybody in baseball over the last 10-20 years that it would have any emotional impact on me, simply aren't very many in that span that I've genuinely like or pull for individually.

[path12]

Edgar Martinez.

[rowech]

Maddux. Would be disappointed with Larkin and Griffey but neither would surprise me.

[KWhit]

John Smoltz.

And Tiger Woods in golf - although I am not as big a fan of his now as I was a few months ago.

[Honolulu_Blue]

And Tiger Woods in golf - although I am not as big a fan of his now as I was a few months ago.

Why's that? Something happen with Tiger?

[Eaglesfan27]

Ryan Howard. From looking at him when he was young, he looks like he was just always a big dude, and I enjoy rooting for him.

[Karlifornia]

Jose Canseco. 40/40 talent. I would be devastated to find out he wasn't doing it clean.

[stevew]

Griffey
Randy Johnson
Jeter

[stevew]

Dola

Mariano Rivera too.

[Eaglesfan27]

Griffey would be my 2nd choice because he is among my favorite players who weren't Phillies.

[Scoobz0202]

Larkin and Griffey



To an extent, Pujols. He is such a freak of nature that I want it to be natural. Bonds... Ramirez... Can Pujols please just be fucking clean.

[terpkristin]

Wait, does anybody think that Bonds WAS clean? I don't, but maybe I'm missing something....

/tk

[sovereignstar]

Griffey. Won't even mention Joe Mauer. Ain't a chance in hell.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Pedro, though I wouldn't be shocked.

Jeter.

Bunch of the other guys mentioned like Cal, the Braves.

[yacovfb]

Tony Gwynn

[Comey]

Frank Thomas. Such a natural talent.

[JS19]

Griffey, big time.

[Butter]

Griffey.

[McSweeny]

nobody

[lighthousekeeper]

Takeru Kobayashi

be prepared to be sad

[lighthousekeeper]

Who's the Next Steroid User to Murder Their Family? - Chris Benoit - Deadspin (http://deadspin.com/273217/whos-the-next-steroid-user-to-murder-their-family)

[Swaggs]

It would be sad for me to find out that any notable Pittsburgh Pirates were using during the steroid. Otherwise, it would make their pathetic performance that much worse.

[larrymcg421]

Dale Murphy

Greg Maddux

Rafael Belliard

[yacovfb]

It would be sad for me to find out that any notable Pittsburgh Pirates were using during the steroid. Otherwise, it would make their pathetic performance that much worse.

Post Barry? ;)

[samifan24]

Ken Griffey, Jr.
Greg Maddux
Cal Ripken, Jr.
Tony Gwynn

[Blackadar]

I'd place dollars to donuts that about half the guys in this thread have juiced at least once. Ken Caminiti said that more than half the majors were on something and I never found any reason to doubt him. Canseco estimated it at 85% and while he's a loudmouth, he's never been proven wrong.

Face it, anyone who played from the mid 80s through 2003 is suspect.

[cougarfreak]

Griffey and Maddux.

[RainMaker]

Greg Maddux.

[Young Drachma]

John Olerud

[Drake]

Yes, Griffey and Frank Thomas.

But I already had my worst with Big Papi. :(

[Neuqua]

Maddux def.

[Young Drachma]

Oh and David Cone.

[Logan]

Frank Thomas. Such a natural talent.

I'd really be amazed if him being the sole player to voluntarily talk to Mitchell ended up being some kind of elaborate smokescreen.

[Swaggs]

Post Barry? ;)

Good question. I'm guessing that he didn't get hooked on the juice until he got out to SF, as it seems like the Bay Area was the early hotspot for 'roids, but who knows? His head seemed like it was a normal size while he was with the Pirates. :)

[Big Fo]

Maddux
Glavine
Smoltz
Chipper Jones
Griffey

[SackAttack]

Joe Shlabotnik.

[BYU 14]

Tony Gwynn

It was juicing not grazing ;)

I would be disappointed with Gwynn as well, genuinely good guy. Also Jeter, Maddux, Ripken and Mariano.

[McLovin]

Edgar Martinez
Larry Walker
Gary Carter

[hawk4669]

Joe Shlabotnik.

You made me smile.

Cheers!

[Swaggs]

I can understand being disappointed, but I wouldn't be surprised by a lot of the pitchers that have been mentioned. Although guys like Maddux, Glavine, R. Johnson, etc. don't have the physiques of 'roid users, the fact that they were effective pitchers into their 40s makes me a little suspicious of them.

[SackAttack]

I can understand being disappointed, but I wouldn't be surprised by a lot of the pitchers that have been mentioned. Although guys like Maddux, Glavine, R. Johnson, etc. don't have the physiques of 'roid users, the fact that they were effective pitchers into their 40s makes me a little suspicious of them.

Guys like Maddux and Glavine didn't have the fireballing stuff going for them that Johnson and Clemens did.

What they did have was probably a combination of veteran pitching wiles and a certain reputation with the umpires. I mean, look at Maddux in his Dodger days - dude would go toss 7 innings of ball and only throw about 65 pitches or so.

You can't do that with steroids. Does it mean he didn't use them? Nah. Might've been a judicious user to try and recover more quickly from injuries and the like, but you just don't achieve that kind of pitch economy because you're a juicer.

[Izulde]

Frank Thomas
Ken Griffey, Jr.
Tony Gwynn
Rickey Henderson

Any of the 2005 White Sox champion team members, but especially Bobby Jenks, Paul Konerko and Jim Thome.

Current White Sox not mentioned above - Alexei Ramirez, Carlos Quentin, Gordon Beckham

[cuervo72]

Mike LaValliere.

[BYU 14]

Guys like Maddux and Glavine didn't have the fireballing stuff going for them that Johnson and Clemens did.

What they did have was probably a combination of veteran pitching wiles and a certain reputation with the umpires. I mean, look at Maddux in his Dodger days - dude would go toss 7 innings of ball and only throw about 65 pitches or so.

You can't do that with steroids. Does it mean he didn't use them? Nah. Might've been a judicious user to try and recover more quickly from injuries and the like, but you just don't achieve that kind of pitch economy because you're a juicer.

Agree, I would be beyond surprised with Maddux, his physique didn't change his whole career and he barely threw hard enough to break a pane of glass, just great control and movement.

[Swaggs]

Guys like Maddux and Glavine didn't have the fireballing stuff going for them that Johnson and Clemens did.

What they did have was probably a combination of veteran pitching wiles and a certain reputation with the umpires. I mean, look at Maddux in his Dodger days - dude would go toss 7 innings of ball and only throw about 65 pitches or so.

You can't do that with steroids. Does it mean he didn't use them? Nah. Might've been a judicious user to try and recover more quickly from injuries and the like, but you just don't achieve that kind of pitch economy because you're a juicer.

Oh, I agree and I doubt that they were using steroids. But still, these guys that pitched ~/+ 200 IP per year for 15 to 20 years, it would not shock me. I mean, come on, if Sammy Sosa can transform into a white guy, I'll believe just about anything that happens in the MLB.

[SackAttack]

In fairness, Sammy Sosa was no longer in the MLB when he made like Michael Jackson.

[Grammaticus]

John Smoltz.

And Tiger Woods in golf - although I am not as big a fan of his now as I was a few months ago.

I think the story is pretty much out. Tiger Woods has been juicing about as often as he can.


On topic,

I would say Nolan Ryan, Pete Rose and Will Clark. I wouldn't be as dissapointed about Ricky Henderson. Although I really like his style of play and I hope he was not using roids.

[claphamsa]

i think ill be disappointed by the ones who didnt... i mean, why not try?

[Shkspr]

Mike LaValliere.

I'm pretty sure the man never even owned a juicer.

[hoopsguy]

I'm pretty sure the man never even owned a juicer.

Dodgerchick and Antmeister - I would be very disappointed if they owned a juicer.

[King of New York]

Biff Pocoroba

Eppa Rixey

Charlie "Piano Legs" Hickman

[dawgfan]

Ken Griffey Jr. Both because he's such an icon for my team, and for the fact that it would really suck to find out that one of the few players that most people believe was totally clean wasn't - there'd be almost no reason anymore to not suspect everyone.

Edgar Martinez. He's such a likable human being that it would break my heart if he was tainted. Unfortunately, he has to be a guy you look at skeptically given the way he went from a skinny guy with not much home run power to a very powerfully built guy in his later years with legit home run power.

As for those that are skeptical that a guy like Maddux could've been a user based on his physique, let me remind you that Ryan Franklin tested positive a few years back. Not that I take any pleasure in pointing that out, because Maddux is one of my all-time favorites. And just because he didn't throw 98 MPH, doesn't mean he wasn't a user either - maybe he was a guy who could throw 85 MPH with average movement, but on steroids he threw 90 MPH with fantastic movement. Again, not saying I think he was a user, just pointing out counter-arguments to those suggesting he couldn't have been based on his stuff...

[Sun Tzu]

Cy Young.

[rjolley]

Frank Thomas and Ken Griffey, Jr definitely.

Pujols would only partially surprise me.

[Sun Tzu]

I think that 20 years from now we're going to find out that 80% of the league was doing something that will be considered "performance enhancing" from the 60's on.

That, or we'll never f'ing know. Point being, all this "juicing" talk is and always has been pointless.

[Fonzie]

Albert Pujols - please, just please let him be the real deal. C'mon Baseball Gods, let us have something.

Ozzie Smith - those backflips...could a juice-free player do them every single freaking day? Hmm...

Robin Yount and Paul Molitor - icons from my younger days in Wisconsin, and thinking of them always generates some nostalgia of a simpler time in baseball. I'd hate for either to have been juiced.

[k0ruptr]

Frank Thomas, please please no. Favorite player ever.

[Lathum]

Griffey for sure.

Bo Jackson

[Tasan]

Well Raffy Palmeiro pretty much destroyed my world. He was one of my absolute favorites when I was a teen.

Griffey would bum me out.

I'd put good money on Julio Franco juicing. No way that dude gets up in the morning and doesn't take something.

[Abe Sargent]

Curt Schilling

[Danny]

Holy crap, Sammy Sosa is now an ugly white guy, I had no idea.

[NewIdentity]

What is going to happen to all your hero's when the NFL or the MLB starts testing for HGH?

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

There is absolutely no need for that apostrophe.

[PilotMan]

Griffey, Maddux, Ripken

I wouldn't be surprised by Bo or Rickey at all.

I guess I would have to add Nolan Ryan, his legend just wouldn't be the same.

[Butter]

Nolan Ryan used to Nupe it everyday. That's practically juicing.

[Samdari]

Pujols would only partially surprise me.

Really? I consider him the poster child for HGH.

[KWhit]

Yeah, I would be totally shocked if Pujols is clean.

[NewIdentity]

There is absolutely no need for that apostrophe.
You are correct. Heros plural does not need an apostrophe. I don't know what I was thinking there?

[Dr. Sak]

It would be sad for me to find out that any notable Pittsburgh Pirates were using during the steroid. Otherwise, it would make their pathetic performance that much worse.

I got into a heated yet interesting conversation a few years ago with Zach Duke over the subject of steroids in baseball.

[Swaggs]

I got into a heated yet interesting conversation a few years ago with Zach Duke over the subject of steroids in baseball.

Did it end with him firing a 78 MPH fastball at you?

[Dr. Sak]

Did it end with him firing a 78 MPH fastball at you?

No, it ended with him walking away with this drop dead gorgeous blonde and me just standing there. Sad thing was, it wasn't till after the argument that I found out it was Zach Duke.

[chesapeake]

Edgar Martinez.

+1

It would be heartbreaking if the icon of Seattle sports was found to have taken performance enhancing drugs.

[Drake]

There is absolutely no need for that apostrophe.

That was beautiful. I think I love you.

[Senator]

Nolan Ryan

[KWhit]

There is absolutely no need for that apostrophe.

Then you'll love this:

http://i50.tinypic.com/2n1xbud.jpg

[sterlingice]

Agree, I would be beyond surprised with Maddux, his physique didn't change his whole career and he barely threw hard enough to break a pane of glass, just great control and movement.

Hardly. In his prime, Maddux wasn't hitting triple digits but he could hit 94-95 on the gun when he needed it.

I would be a bit disappointed if it came out that he used, tho :(

SI

[sterlingice]

It would be sad for me to find out that any notable Pittsburgh Pirates were using during the steroid. Otherwise, it would make their pathetic performance that much worse.

Quite a few Royals have been mentioned in the steroids mess, tho almost all are of the variety of "aging star the Royals paid too much for long after his prime". As for those teams cheating and still sucking, maybe they're just doing it wrong. I'll refer to Turk on Scrubs.

Turk (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0265668/): This is the reason why your headache didn't go away: That's actually pronounced analgesic, not anal-gesic. Sir, the pills go in your mouth.

SI

[molson]

The only one that comes remotely to mind in Curt Schilling, but I think the reaction would be something other than exactly "sad".

Otherwise, nobody close. Which makes me feel cynical and without a soul.

And I never understood why Griffey always got the benefit of the doubt, considering the way his body broke down.

[DaddyTorgo]

Yeah, I would be totally shocked if Pujols is clean.

+1000

[larrymcg421]

The only one that comes remotely to mind in Curt Schilling, but I think the reaction would be something other than exactly "sad".

Otherwise, nobody close. Which makes me feel cynical and without a soul.

And I never understood why Griffey always got the benefit of the doubt, considering the way his body broke down.

I think that's part fo the reason why he gets the benefit of the doubt. If he was juicing, he probably would've recovered better.

[CU Tiger]

I think that's part fo the reason why he gets the benefit of the doubt. If he was juicing, he probably would've recovered better.


I think there is a 0% chance Griffey is clean. He added 25 lbs and began having injuries at 27...players dont grow muscle at 27 that have been in a gym since they were 17...

[Noop]

Holy crap, Sammy Sosa is now an ugly white guy, I had no idea.

http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr175/kalecullen/animated%20gifs/AndyWHAT.gif

[Pumpy Tudors]

comedy Dale Sveum response

[Blackadar]

I think there is a 0% chance Griffey is clean. He added 25 lbs and began having injuries at 27...players dont grow muscle at 27 that have been in a gym since they were 17...

This is exactly the kind of comment that causes me to give everyone a free pass in the steroid era. No one is above suspicion and there's no excuse too flimsy to justify that suspicion.

Just to set the record straight:

Griffey's first major injury occurred when he was 25 years old after playing about 900 games across 7 seasons. The kid broke his wrist crashing into a wall in 1995 and missed more than half the year. He then returned to play 5 straight seasons with no real extraordinary jump in statistics. He hit 45 homers at age 23 in 1993, so unless he was on the juice back then (prior to his supposed physique change), his 56 homers in 1997 and 1998 certainly aren't outliers. Then his body started to break down at age 31, which isn't surprising since he had played over 1,700 games. It's not surprising that he put on weight after that, considering he was often laid-up due to injuries.

Really, there's nothing in Griffey's profile to suggest use of 'roids unless he was taking them all the way back when he was 22-23. If he got on them later in his career, there's nothing to suggest they helped him, considering he's played more than 130 games only twice since 2001.

I'm not saying he wasn't using them. I'm saying there's no evidence to suggest he was. But your attempt to paint him as such is the perfect example because that kind of logic could be applied to almost any player mentioned in this thread. Ripken? Had to be on the juice to play all those games. Maddux? Just look at how his physique changed. Ryan? Look at his jump in strikeout totals when he got into his 40s.

So on and so forth...

[Poli]

Stubby Clapp

[molson]

But your attempt to paint him as such is the perfect example because that kind of logic could be applied to almost any player mentioned in this thread. Ripken? Had to be on the juice to play all those games. Maddux? Just look at how his physique changed. Ryan? Look at his jump in strikeout totals when he got into his 40s.

So on and so forth...

The union and owners have chosen to create an environment where this kind of logic is applied. I'm perfectly content with assuming everyone cheated. It's more accurate than assuming the opposite, and it makes the whole "steroid era" not as big a deal, because it was an even playing field.

[Blackadar]

The union and owners have chosen to create an environment where this kind of logic is applied. I'm perfectly content with assuming everyone cheated. It's more accurate than assuming the opposite, and it makes the whole "steroid era" not as big a deal, because it was an even playing field.

That's kind of my attitude as well.

[Terps]

Ripken, Murray, Markakis... And if he pans out, Wieters.

[JediKooter]

Tony Gwynn Sr.
Wade Boggs
Don Mattingly
Ricky Henderson

[Glengoyne]

Maddux,
Schilling,
Gwynn,
I'd not be disappointed with Cal Ripken Jr. I'm still annoyed he broke Gehrig's record.
Griffey is someone I'm surprised to see on so many lists. I've written his career off as a disappointment, so what is one more?

[chesapeake]

I think there is a 0% chance Griffey is clean. He added 25 lbs and began having injuries at 27...players dont grow muscle at 27 that have been in a gym since they were 17...

Griffey never saw the inside of a gym when he was with the M's and was constantly criticized for it. He finally started a weight training program after being injured a couple of times.

If he did juice, he should get his money back. Given the frequency and durations of his many injuries, it sure didn't seem to do him any good.

[molson]

If he did juice, he should get his money back. Given the frequency and durations of his many injuries, it sure didn't seem to do him any good.

I'm not a medical expert, but it's certainly out there that one of the side effects of excessive steroid use can be injuries. In that, maybe you can heal faster, but then you're pushing your body to do things its not desinged to do.

[RedKingGold]

Jesus

[McLovin]

Jesus


Jesus Flores or Jesus Alou ? :D

[CU Tiger]

This is exactly the kind of comment that causes me to give everyone a free pass in the steroid era. No one is above suspicion and there's no excuse too flimsy to justify that suspicion.

Just to set the record straight:

Griffey's first major injury occurred when he was 25 years old after playing about 900 games across 7 seasons. The kid broke his wrist crashing into a wall in 1995 and missed more than half the year. He then returned to play 5 straight seasons with no real extraordinary jump in statistics. He hit 45 homers at age 23 in 1993, so unless he was on the juice back then (prior to his supposed physique change), his 56 homers in 1997 and 1998 certainly aren't outliers. Then his body started to break down at age 31, which isn't surprising since he had played over 1,700 games. It's not surprising that he put on weight after that, considering he was often laid-up due to injuries.

Really, there's nothing in Griffey's profile to suggest use of 'roids unless he was taking them all the way back when he was 22-23. If he got on them later in his career, there's nothing to suggest they helped him, considering he's played more than 130 games only twice since 2001.

I'm not saying he wasn't using them. I'm saying there's no evidence to suggest he was. But your attempt to paint him as such is the perfect example because that kind of logic could be applied to almost any player mentioned in this thread. Ripken? Had to be on the juice to play all those games. Maddux? Just look at how his physique changed. Ryan? Look at his jump in strikeout totals when he got into his 40s.

So on and so forth...

So a careeer high of 45 is eclisped four years later by 11 (25% above his career high) and repeated two years in a row and that isnt an outlier, really?

I've stated here numerous times before, I experimented with both illegal and legal at extreme dosage supplements largely in the mid 90s. My opinion does not come from someone who has watched athletes be accused, I personally know no less than 50 anabolic users personally that I either played with or lifted with.

I think the numbers are much closer to 100% than anyone wants to believe, but just watching Griffey Id say it a damn near lock.

Also AS abuse is tied directly to ligament deterioration and excessive stiration over an extended period, I have read numbers as high as 1000% more likely to sustain injury during and immediately following a cycle. Susceptibility to injury is a marker of abuse not a witness to the contrary.

One other name that keeps coming up is Rickey Henderson, and that shocks me as well. Just his presence on the late 80s A's should cast doubt on him, and again his longevity and career track coupled with outward appearance certainly suggest there is at leats reasonable suspicion.

The bigger problem is how long did the steroid era last?
I'd suggest that it extends into the early 80s and possibly even late 70s.

The formulations certainly improve in recent years, as did their effectiveness but their presence has has been there.

[Shkspr]

The bigger problem is how long did the steroid era last?
I'd suggest that it extends into the early 80s and possibly even late 70s.



This is interesting to me as I've always kinda thought of Brian Downing circa 1979 of being an excellent candidate for doping.

[Vegas Vic]

The Fabulous Moolah.

[Karlifornia]

Yeah, I guess the only person I'd be disappointed to find out was on the juice would be Bo Jackson. Bo Jackson was pretty much the best mainstream athlete ever. It seemed like he could do anything, and the makers of Tecmo Bowl definitely were reverent.

[Blackadar]

So a careeer high of 45 is eclisped four years later by 11 (25% above his career high) and repeated two years in a row and that isnt an outlier, really?

No, not at that age. Most home run hitters hit their peak in their late 20s and early 30s, so for Griffey to go from 45 (at 23 years old) to 56 at 27 and 28 years old would be seen as a pretty normal maturation of a hitter. If you look at the great HR hitters in non-steroid eras (I used the top 15 HR list and threw out the 'roid era guys), their best seasons we're all about in that range.

Aaron's top season of 45 was at age 28.
Ruth's top season of 60 was at age 32 and his 59 was at 26.
Mays had his top year at 34.
Frank Robinson had his best HR year at age 30.
Killebrew had his best years at ages 28 and 33.
Schmidt had his at age 30.

I've stated here numerous times before, I experimented with both illegal and legal at extreme dosage supplements largely in the mid 90s. My opinion does not come from someone who has watched athletes be accused, I personally know no less than 50 anabolic users personally that I either played with or lifted with.

I think the numbers are much closer to 100% than anyone wants to believe, but just watching Griffey Id say it a damn near lock.

I've already said that I believed Caminiti and most of what Canseco says, so I'm right there with you. That's why it doesn't bother me much. If most everyone did it, no one had an advantage.

Also AS abuse is tied directly to ligament deterioration and excessive stiration over an extended period, I have read numbers as high as 1000% more likely to sustain injury during and immediately following a cycle. Susceptibility to injury is a marker of abuse not a witness to the contrary.

But Griffey wasn't all that susceptible to injury when he was at his peak. It's just as reasonable of an explanation to suggest that his breakdown was simply due to playing 1,700 games with his play style and his lack of conditioning. I'm not saying he wasn't doing 'roids, but there is another plausible explanation.


One other name that keeps coming up is Rickey Henderson, and that shocks me as well. Just his presence on the late 80s A's should cast doubt on him, and again his longevity and career track coupled with outward appearance certainly suggest there is at leats reasonable suspicion.

The bigger problem is how long did the steroid era last?
I'd suggest that it extends into the early 80s and possibly even late 70s.

The formulations certainly improve in recent years, as did their effectiveness but their presence has has been there.

I wholeheartedly agree with you.

Hey, Griffey may very well have juiced. But I don't think the chance for him is appreciably higher than it was for any other top player. That's still a pretty good chance, though. :D