OOTP 11 Update!

[Markus Heinsohn]

Hey guys,

I'd like to share a bit of info about our upcoming Out of the Park Baseball 11 :)

OOTP 11 is in development for a few months now, unfortunately I lost about 6 weeks of development time because of illness. But things are working full steam now, no worries :) Beta testing will start in a couple of weeks, and we are aiming for a release date significantly earlier than the past 2 years.

We will start a preorder-period in a couple of weeks as well, where you will have the opportunity to preorder OOTP 11 for a great price. So, you might ask, what will OOTP 11 have to offer? I will not go into great detail now, but here are a few of the new features:

- Partly redesigned user interface, making the game more accessible and fun to use. This does include mass-selection of players.
- Recoded fielding engine, making defense more realistic while introducing new fielding stats like Zone Rating, Individual Fielding Efficiency and Team Defence Efficiency.
- More advanced stats like wOBA (weighted on-base average), OPS+, ERA+ and FIP (fielding independent pitching)
- Recoded parts of player creation engine, introducing two-way players and also starting draft-elegible players off with higher overall ratings.
- Recoded parts of the player development system, handling two-way players and pitcher batting (pitchers no longer start out with fully developed hitting ratings) and resulting in even more realistic career curves.
- Recoded amateur draft with (optional) signing bonuses, player demands, slotting system, post-draft contract & bonus negotiations and compensation picks for unsigned picks (who will re-enter the draft a year later). Also when feeder leagues are used, undrafted/unsigned HS players may go to college.
- Improved historicals with recoded part-time player rating routines, new fielding ratings calculator and other fancy stuff, resulting in the most realistic and fun historical play experience ever.
- Oh, and much more... ;)

We will have a big announcement in a couple of weeks, so stay tuned!

All the best,
Markus

[DaddyTorgo]

recoded fielding engine and advanced stats are cool addition. the rest of the stuff that you've posted there looks like positive steps to existing features as well

[Pumpy Tudors]

:)

[lungs]

Looking forward to this as usual.

[Sun Tzu]

I think I'll be getting this version. I'm still on OOTP 9 and going strong. I should be able to import my v9 league right?

[lungs]

Two-way players is an interesting addition. Would this allow to simulate a better high school environment? Or better yet, some kind of town ball team league? Basically having rosters of like 15 guys with several two-way players on a team.

Amateur draft changes sound nice. Not sure OOTP can yet mimic real life where Americans, Canadians, and Puerto Ricans are draft eligible whereas everybody else is a free agent. You can setup feeder leagues and whatnot but I've always had a damned hard time getting feeder leagues to work the way I want to. Which brings me to my last point.

OOTP has the base to be what I've always wanted in a baseball simulator. I love fictional leagues and I'd love to create this massive world. But creating this to my liking is just too damned tedious. Random team name generators just don't work for me. I like my leagues to be fairly geographically correct. I don't like seeing team names that just make no sense in relation to the city they are in.

Then trying to strike a balance with league modifiers, player creation modifiers, salary modifiers, financial balancing. My goodness there is so much to do. Maybe what I'm saying is that I'd love to see more fictional league templates! I don't have time to spend weeks trying to balance my universe (and I admit I'm a little more picky than the average player). Put together all kinds of different templates and allow me to piece them together when creating a universe.

[Young Drachma]

For some of the more annoying things about the game (financial modeling, some of the wonky in-game tactical things that happen, etc.) it's base is still the best out there for people who want to customize a game to adapt to a variety of different varieties of play. So I can appreciate that at least. And it's grown leaps and bounds from the old days, so I guess there's that too.

[DanGarion]

Really? You are going to keep a 1 year cycle? I'd really hope you do a 2 year. But that's just me.

[miked]

I hope FA comp works correctly this time around...on it's 3rd or 4th iteration.

[RainMaker]

Any estimate for a release date? I guess one of the turnoffs of the series of late has been the vagueness toward release dates. Expecting people to throw in for a preorder for a game that you have no clue when it'll come out. I also sort of lose my my passion to start a new baseball league when the game comes out so late in the year. Not sure if that has changed lately, but I always liked the opening day releases we seemed to get with previous versions a long way back.

[spleen1015]

I think they are going for a release date closer to Opening Day.

[Young Drachma]

Really? You are going to keep a 1 year cycle? I'd really hope you do a 2 year. But that's just me.

Dude's gotta eat.

[spleen1015]

Dude's gotta eat.

And pay for the Ferrari.

[lighthousekeeper]

I'm glad to see advanced fielding make its way into the game. If done right this will add a lot of real depth to the game. I think if I were to pick 1 *new* feature I would've wantd it would have been the advanced fielding - so that's great.

That said, there are a lot of issues that remain from version to version that just aren't getting addressed.

[stevew]

Will version X exports work with version 11? I'd buy 11 if so, but I'm not sure how many in our league would really want to upgrade. I mean, the game really didn't work properly till October-ish IMO.

[DanGarion]

I'm glad to see advanced fielding make its way into the game. If done right this will add a lot of real depth to the game. I think if I were to pick 1 *new* feature I would've wantd it would have been the advanced fielding - so that's great.

That said, there are a lot of issues that remain from version to version that just aren't getting addressed.

That's why I wish Markus would go to a 2 year cycle instead of 1.

[johnnyshaka]

Will version X exports work with version 11? I'd buy 11 if so, but I'm not sure how many in our league would really want to upgrade. I mean, the game really didn't work properly till October-ish IMO.

Uhm...I think that's when it broke...for me at least. ;)

[stevew]

It broke for CMG(rays) too, right around that same time.

[SackAttack]

OOTP 11 is in development for a few months now, unfortunately I lost about 6 weeks of development time because of illness. But things are working full steam now, no worries :) Beta testing will start in a couple of weeks, and we are aiming for a release date significantly earlier than the past 2 years.

Danger, danger, Will Robinson!

[sovereignstar]

We will have a big announcement in a couple of weeks, so stay tuned!

H2H

[JPhillips]

Disappointed that talent distribution in Equatorial Guinea apparently isn't being looked at.

On a more serious note, +1000 to DanG.

[Mota]

I'm glad to see advanced fielding make its way into the game. If done right this will add a lot of real depth to the game. I think if I were to pick 1 *new* feature I would've wantd it would have been the advanced fielding - so that's great.

That said, there are a lot of issues that remain from version to version that just aren't getting addressed.

I like this one too. I just wish the text descriptions would do a better job of describing just HOW good a play was. If it was something that only the best of fielders could do I'd like to see that mentioned, make me feel better about putting out a good fielding team by SHOWING me it makes a difference.

[molson]

There's a pretty good way for anyone to simulate a two-year cycle. And you can just think of it as very intensive beta-testing in between years.

[DanGarion]

There's a pretty good way for anyone to simulate a two-year cycle. And you can just think of it as very intensive beta-testing in between years.

True.

[Markus Heinsohn]

Really? You are going to keep a 1 year cycle? I'd really hope you do a 2 year. But that's just me.

If we'd sell twice as many copies then this could work. But, we do not, so it doesn't :(

[Markus Heinsohn]

Will version X exports work with version 11?

No, sorry. Online exports/league files cannot be compatible between versions because of all the various changes.

Of course, you can import an entire OOTP 10 league into OOTP 11.

[miked]

That said, there are a lot of issues that remain from version to version that just aren't getting addressed.

This +1000. Then +1000 more.

[DaddyTorgo]

No, sorry. Online exports/league files cannot be compatible between versions because of all the various changes.

Of course, you can import an entire OOTP 10 league into OOTP 11.

Or just have someone with OOTP 10 import your OOTP 9 league and then import that into OOTP 11 yourself. :D

[Markus Heinsohn]

This +1000. Then +1000 more.


We try to fix as many outstanding issues as possible each year. But also please keep in mind, your 'issue' might be a design decision and not an issue to 99% of the other customers. Whenever I read things like "fix what you have before adding new stuff", it makes me angry a bit, because it sounds as if OOTP is a buggy and unstable game. It is not! Considering its complexity and the number of rules + options it handles, it is an incredibly bug-free and stable product.


:)

[BigPapi]

....That said, there are a lot of issues that remain from version to version that just aren't getting addressed.

What he said.....I've bought every version of this game so far- but as I sit here, I have no desire to go back to the well again this year- and this is why. I love all the new features Markus adds every year, but so many of the basic details of running a franchise the AI is seemingly incapable of doing correctly. Despite touting "improved AI" with seemingly every update (and usually no details to what exactly was improved), I have finally come to the realization that this type of thing isn't going to ever be good enough for me.....I'll bet the game is a blast with all human owners- but I simply don't have the time for that.

Is Puresim any better at this type of thing (trade AI, player evaluation, prospect management) than OOTP- or is this simply too hard to program realistically?

[Markus Heinsohn]

What he said.....I've bought every version of this game so far- but as I sit here, I have no desire to go back to the well again this year- and this is why. I love all the new features Markus adds every year, but so many of the basic details of running a franchise the AI is seemingly incapable of doing correctly. Despite touting "improved AI" with seemingly every update (and usually no details to what exactly was improved), I have finally come to the realization that this type of thing isn't going to ever be good enough for me.....I'll bet the game is a blast with all human owners- but I simply don't have the time for that.

Is Puresim any better at this type of thing (trade AI, player evaluation, prospect management) than OOTP- or is this simply too hard to program realistically?

No game offers all the roster rules etc. that OOTP does, so the answer is 'no', no other game does it better. Also, no roster AI will ever be as good as the human player, unless it is so complex that it slows the game down to unplayable state.

That being said, most OOTP customers praise the improved AI each new version, so I feel we do a very good job in this area. Is it perfect? No. Is it better than other games? Yes, in my opinion it is.

[JPhillips]

Welcome to Hollywood.

[SunDevil]

What he said.....I've bought every version of this game so far- but as I sit here, I have no desire to go back to the well again this year- and this is why. I love all the new features Markus adds every year, but so many of the basic details of running a franchise the AI is seemingly incapable of doing correctly. Despite touting "improved AI" with seemingly every update (and usually no details to what exactly was improved), I have finally come to the realization that this type of thing isn't going to ever be good enough for me.....I'll bet the game is a blast with all human owners- but I simply don't have the time for that.

Is Puresim any better at this type of thing (trade AI, player evaluation, prospect management) than OOTP- or is this simply too hard to program realistically?

I have not "gone to the well" for a couple of years now. But I do read the threads here on this board and on the official OOTP board. The theme each and every year is not what new features makes this game great, but instead what are the "new" features from the current version or the "legacy" features from previous versions that must be TURNED OFF because the AI can not handle/perform correctly with these features turned on. If the yearly consistent feedback is no longer what needs to be turned off and instead what a great and easily to setup game it is OUT OF THE BOX then I will purchase this game. Until that time for all the pre order and end of year specials I will not be buying a thing.

Here a couple of threads linked at the OOTP boards:

OOTP 11 - Interface navigation poll! (http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/ootp-10-general-discussions/189868-out-park-baseball-11-interface-navigation-poll.html)

Plenty of comments about UI quirks from past versions still in the game. Even though at one time this game was part of SI this game still does not have a UI skin feature. SI almost completely removes this whole topic on allowing the users to create their own skin and put the buttons where they want them. Why should button placement be a development task each year?

Feedback Needed / OOTP 11 Features (http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/ootp-10-general-discussions/189142-feedback-needed-out-park-baseball-11-features.html)

Plenty of great ideas in this thread, and plenty of improvements that would make this game great. Also plenty of mentions of the same features or fixes that I have seen for years.

More AI oddness (http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/ootp-10-general-discussions/192219-more-ai-oddness.html)

Morale: On or Off (http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/ootp-10-general-discussions/192026-morale-off.html)

What is "Use pre-defined draft value for AI"? (http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/ootp-10-general-discussions/182969-what-use-pre-defined-draft-vakue-ai.html)

[molson]

I think this franchise is an amazing accomplishment. It's at the point now where the criticisms seem to be directed towards how playing this game isn't exactly like being a Baseball GM.

I mean, Baseball Mogul blew me away 10+ years ago. If I had OOTP back then, I never would have graduated college.

[Markus Heinsohn]

OOTP 11 - Interface navigation poll! (http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/ootp-10-general-discussions/189868-out-park-baseball-11-interface-navigation-poll.html)

Plenty of comments about UI quirks from past versions still in the game. Even though at one time this game was part of SI this game still does not have a UI skin feature. SI almost completely removes this whole topic on allowing the users to create their own skin and put the buttons where they want them. Why should button placement be a development task each year?

Feedback Needed / OOTP 11 Features (http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/ootp-10-general-discussions/189142-feedback-needed-out-park-baseball-11-features.html)

Plenty of great ideas in this thread, and plenty of improvements that would make this game great. Also plenty of mentions of the same features or fixes that I have seen for years.

More AI oddness (http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/ootp-10-general-discussions/192219-more-ai-oddness.html)

Morale: On or Off (http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/ootp-10-general-discussions/192026-morale-off.html)

What is "Use pre-defined draft value for AI"? (http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/ootp-10-general-discussions/182969-what-use-pre-defined-draft-vakue-ai.html)

Keep in mind that we have thousands of satisfied customers, and the opinions on the forums only represent a very small vocal group... quoting a few threads and drawing conclusions from that does not result in an adequate evaluation of the quality of the game. Those who really love and enjoy the game (which is the huge majority, otherwise we wouldn't be in business anymore) usually do not spend time on forums, they simply play the game.

By the way, the last thread you quoted is not the game's fault, but the user used a custom database which did not have the fields needed to support the feature. ;)

We do our best each year to fix reported problems, tweak existing features to improve them, and add new features in order to attract new and returning customers. :)

OK, back to work now...

[Markus Heinsohn]

I think this franchise is an amazing accomplishment. It's at the point now where the criticisms seem to be directed towards how playing this game isn't exactly like being a Baseball GM.

I mean, Baseball Mogul blew me away 10+ years ago. If I had OOTP back then, I never would have graduated college.

Thanks for the kind words :)

[Young Drachma]

When keeping it real goes wrong.

[Pumpy Tudors]

When keeping it real goes wrong.
Holy shit, this almost got me fired for laughing so hard at work.

[DanGarion]

Those who really love and enjoy the game (which is the huge majority, otherwise we wouldn't be in business anymore) usually do not spend time on forums, they simply play the game.

Really?...

[johnnyshaka]

What DG said...that doesn't make any sense...text-based sims are only around because of forums like this one so I would argue that the huge majority of your customers DO spend LOTS of time on forums.

[Markus Heinsohn]

Really?...

Yes. Really :)

Edit: That does not mean that forums users do not like the game, of course. But the number of active users in the OOTP forum is a lot smaller than the total customers we have...

[Rizon]

H2H

Oh snap! :lol:

[DanGarion]

Yes. Really :)

Edit: That does not mean that forums users do not like the game, of course. But the number of active users in the OOTP forum is a lot smaller than the total customers we have...

So it's better to just assume that those that aren't vocal are perfectly happy with the game?

Don't get me wrong for the most part I think OOTP is a good product, and it's one of the only computer games I buy, but to me it would be more beneficial to resolve the existing problems the vocal "minority" keep pointing out, than to keep coming out with new versions that still have those problems.

I guess, I'm still a bit miffed from the issues that arose from patches, that ended up stopping our online league for a full month. 30 teams of human players. At $35 bucks a pop that's $1000+ in revenue. I would think those that run leagues would be the ones that you would want to listen to, since so much rides on them upgrading...

[Sun Tzu]

Hey, I asked the first question but it never got answered :)

Can you import an OOTP 9 league into OOTP 11?

[DaddyTorgo]

Hey, I asked the first question but it never got answered :)

Can you import an OOTP 9 league into OOTP 11?

it got answered. you can't import it directly. you'd have to have someone import it to a ootp 10 league for you and then import that into ootp 11

[DanGarion]

Oh and to add to my last post, not to mention we also had two owners that had to quit because things stopped working for them after patches. If you really think about it, leagues generate even more than $1000 in revenue. In that time that the new RWBL has been around we've probably had 45 owners, which would put the revenue generated by one league close to $1500 in just one year. (not taking into consideration those that are in multiple leagues, since I don't know those numbers).

[Markus Heinsohn]

Don't get me wrong for the most part I think OOTP is a good product, and it's one of the only computer games I buy, but to me it would be more beneficial to resolve the existing problems the vocal "minority" keep pointing out.


We do this ever year, trust me. For example, this time the engine for handling earned/unearned runs was completely recoded so that it works perfectly now. That's just one of many examples.

As long as there is a problem (which is not a design decision) and it is properly reported, I am trying to fix it. :) Why wouldn't I? We are trying each year to get the balance between fixes, tweaks and new features right. It's not an easy task, but we do our best.

[DanGarion]

it got answered. you can't import it directly. you'd have to have someone import it to a ootp 10 league for you and then import that into ootp 11

Or you can do what has been suggested in the past. Installed the OOTP 10 demo and import into it, and then import into OOTP 11.

[DaddyTorgo]

We do this ever year, trust me. For example, this time the engine for handling earned/unearned runs was completely recoded so that it works perfectly now. That's just one of many examples.

As long as there is a problem (which is not a design decision) and it is properly reported, I am trying to fix it. :) Why wouldn't I? We are trying each year to get the balance between fixes, tweaks and new features right. It's not an easy task, but we do our best.

If you've been working to get those "lingering problems" worked out, perhaps it might do you some good to make note of that then, so that people feel that they're being addressed, rather than just lumping them in as general things? from a marketing standpoint i mean.

[lighthousekeeper]

As long as there is a problem (which is not a design decision) and it is properly reported, I am trying to fix it.

How do you properly report issues? I've reported multiple issues in the Tech Support subforum and never get a response, but I'm thinking this might not be the proper mechanism to report issues. I even made a post asking "what is the proper mechanism" and that didn't get a response.

[Markus Heinsohn]

How do you properly report issues? I've reported multiple issues in the Tech Support subforum and never get a response, but I'm thinking this might not be the proper mechanism to report issues. I even made a post asking "what is the proper mechanism" and that didn't get a response.

We had some issues with the support forum last year... this year we will change the entire support process to a professional ticket system, so that we won't miss anything. That system is not cheap, but I think it'll be worth it...

[DanGarion]

How do you properly report issues? I've reported multiple issues in the Tech Support subforum and never get a response.

I couldn't even get a simple explanation on how to get someone setup for a multiplayer league on a Macintosh. You would think it would be laid out in the manual.

Looking briefly through the online manual there is still no step by step instruction for new owners on how to install the initial league file for an online league. There is only information on how to load an online league file if you are already in a league. Also new owners have to manually configure the upload settings for them to work, since those settings are not included in the league file.

[DanGarion]

We had some issues with the support forum last year... this year we will change the entire support process to a professional ticket system, so that we won't miss anything. That system is not cheap, but I think it'll be worth it...

Very good to hear. Not that it's not cheap, but that you will be using a ticketing system.

[DanGarion]

Markus, just so you know, for all I'm saying, I'm generally happy with the game, and as always I will end up buying OOTP11 most likely during the presale phase.

But is there a way you can make sure I finally win my league this next season? I have like the best team and for some reason the OOTP gods keep kicking me in the balls in the playoffs... Thanks.

[Rizon]

Markus, just so you know, for all I'm saying, I'm generally happy with the game, and as always I will end up buying OOTP11 most likely during the presale phase.

But is there a way you can make sure I finally win my league this next season? I have like the best team and for some reason the OOTP gods keep kicking me in the balls in the playoffs... Thanks.

You don't know the cheat codes??

[DanGarion]

You don't know the cheat codes??

It's all about the Gload code!

[miked]

We try to fix as many outstanding issues as possible each year. But also please keep in mind, your 'issue' might be a design decision and not an issue to 99% of the other customers. Whenever I read things like "fix what you have before adding new stuff", it makes me angry a bit, because it sounds as if OOTP is a buggy and unstable game. It is not! Considering its complexity and the number of rules + options it handles, it is an incredibly bug-free and stable product.


:)

I understand, but I'm talking about some basic rules. Like FA Compensation. It's been around for 2-3 versions now. So why are teams being awarded picks based on when the player was signed and not true amounts? It was mentioned several times during the various patch threads but still doesn't work. Sometimes our waivers get screwed up and teams with the worse record don't get the player. We just had a case where a team cut a guy with 1 year + 1 option year remaining, and he's a type-A free agent.

[Rizon]

It's all about the Gload code!

Up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right. Then B, A, B, A, Tab, Enter.

[johnnyshaka]

Up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right. Then B, A, B, A, Tab, Enter.

DG, quoted for truth...that's how I won the WS during my short stint in the RWBL!!!

[Pumpy Tudors]

For the life of me, I can't understand why Jim Gindin doesn't hype future products.

[JPhillips]

We do this ever year, trust me. For example, this time the engine for handling earned/unearned runs was completely recoded so that it works perfectly now.

I know you won't listen to me, but saying anything "works perfectly" is just a recipe for disaster.

There are times when your communication skills are roughly on par with Jennifer Winters.

[Markus Heinsohn]

I know you won't listen to me, but saying anything "works perfectly" is just a recipe for disaster.

There are times when your communication skills are roughly on par with Jennifer Winters.

English is not my natural language, so pardon me when I make poor word choices :(

[Markus Heinsohn]

I understand, but I'm talking about some basic rules. Like FA Compensation. It's been around for 2-3 versions now. So why are teams being awarded picks based on when the player was signed and not true amounts? It was mentioned several times during the various patch threads but still doesn't work. Sometimes our waivers get screwed up and teams with the worse record don't get the player.

Regarding FA comp, I'm pretty sure that was fixed in the last patch. And the waiver thing, IIRC then teams from the same league of the waiving team gets the benefit over a team from the other league even if its record is worse, that's MLB rules. (I might be wrong though, maybe that changes last year)

[molson]

For the life of me, I can't understand why Jim Gindin doesn't hype future products.

I hate that he does that but he's clearly right.

[JPhillips]

English is not my natural language, so pardon me when I make poor word choices :(

I just remember a year or two ago when you were posting screenshots and EF27 and I both pointed out what looked like an excessive number of fights. Your response was that the shots were from an older build, but you had tested fights and you were sure there were no problems.

The first official patch contained a fix for excessive fights.

[Young Drachma]

You know, I used to think PR people were overhyped. This thread changed my opinion on the need for them.

[Markus Heinsohn]

I just remember a year or two ago when you were posting screenshots and EF27 and I both pointed out what looked like an excessive number of fights. Your response was that the shots were from an older build, but you had tested fights and you were sure there were no problems.

The first official patch contained a fix for excessive fights.

Which shows that we re-evaluate test results and fix things if problems are indeed found. Sounds like a good thing to me. :)

[DanGarion]

No love from Markus asking for help in my league. :)

[Markus Heinsohn]

No love from Markus asking for help in my league. :)

You can always email me... markus at ootpdevelopments.com :)

[sabotai]

But is there a way you can make sure I finally win my league this next season? I have like the best team and for some reason the OOTP gods keep kicking me in the balls in the playoffs... Thanks.

Ping: HornsManiac

[SackAttack]

Markus, just so you know, for all I'm saying, I'm generally happy with the game, and as always I will end up buying OOTP11 most likely during the presale phase.

But is there a way you can make sure I finally win my league this next season? I have like the best team and for some reason the OOTP gods keep kicking me in the balls in the playoffs... Thanks.

Hint: the game is all kinds of fucked up, yes, but if you had paid even the slightest bit of attention, it wouldn't have been able to kick you in the balls.

[DanGarion]

Hint: the game is all kinds of fucked up, yes, but if you had paid even the slightest bit of attention, it wouldn't have been able to kick you in the balls.

Um right, because I don't pay attention in the league, that's why I'm always adjusting my lineup...

[Mustang]

There are times when your communication skills are roughly on par with Jennifer Winters.

Speaking of bad choice of words.. umm.. really?

[Drake]

I don't see OOTP's issues as significantly different than needing ten dozen house rules not to exploit the AI in FOF.

But then again, I shut off most of the features people seem to have problems with because I don't want to mess with those parts of real baseball anyway. Maybe that's why I keep buying it. :)

[RedKingGold]

Who said customer service was dead?

[Young Drachma]

The financial system in the game is still broken and is in need an economics class of the first order. Guys demands dictate their market rate. One could assume that their asking price is somehow determined by their performance, but we often figure out that it's not.

The player's perceived value shouldn't be the end all, be all. It ought to be dictated by the market. If everyone is only willing to offer a guy half of what he's worth, with one team offering 60% of his perceived value, he needs to sign with someone or else he gets nothing.

In OOTP, he'll wait until the absolute last minute and take a 1-year deal, but it'll still be an inflated rate or he'll willingly sit in FA for an entire year because no one met his asking price, while it'll eventually drop gradually. That just defies all common economic sense.

This wouldn't be a problem if it was only a solo league problem, because then you could just find ways to work around it if you're a tinkerer, but...for online leagues that use the in-game financial system (almost all?) it can turn out to be something of a disaster.

I know this isn't as sexy as saying "new features!" from the top of the Erzgebirge, but it's really one of many underlying problems that prevents a good game from being great.

[stevew]

I just got an awesome Email from Craig Hansen (http://rwbl.net/reports/html/players/player_18911.html) demanding that he be given the chance to start games. He has a 3 in endurance, and has never started a game in 4 years. I could understand if his endurance was more like a 4 or 5, but it's just silly that he's pissed off about something like this.

[sovereignstar]

I just got an awesome Email from Craig Hansen (http://rwbl.net/reports/html/players/player_18911.html) demanding that he be given the chance to start games. He has a 3 in endurance, and has never started a game in 4 years. I could understand if his endurance was more like a 4 or 5, but it's just silly that he's pissed off about something like this.

Sir, I have some very good news for you. Bat boys have been added to the game.

[johnnyshaka]

I don't see OOTP's issues as significantly different than needing ten dozen house rules not to exploit the AI in FOF.


How many versions of FOF have been released in the last 10 years? How many versions of OOTP have been released during the same time period?

My ROI with FOF is much better than it is with OOTP.

[miked]

The financial system in the game is still broken and is in need an economics class of the first order. Guys demands dictate their market rate. One could assume that their asking price is somehow determined by their performance, but we often figure out that it's not.

The player's perceived value shouldn't be the end all, be all. It ought to be dictated by the market. If everyone is only willing to offer a guy half of what he's worth, with one team offering 60% of his perceived value, he needs to sign with someone or else he gets nothing.

In OOTP, he'll wait until the absolute last minute and take a 1-year deal, but it'll still be an inflated rate or he'll willingly sit in FA for an entire year because no one met his asking price, while it'll eventually drop gradually. That just defies all common economic sense.

This wouldn't be a problem if it was only a solo league problem, because then you could just find ways to work around it if you're a tinkerer, but...for online leagues that use the in-game financial system (almost all?) it can turn out to be something of a disaster.

I know this isn't as sexy as saying "new features!" from the top of the Erzgebirge, but it's really one of many underlying problems that prevents a good game from being great.

Actually, I see a lot of contract demands tied heavily to popularity. They have these wonderful settings about salary levels for different tiers of players, and it's more or less ignored.

[Young Drachma]

Actually, I see a lot of contract demands tied heavily to popularity. They have these wonderful settings about salary levels for different tiers of players, and it's more or less ignored.

I could see that, too.

[Markus Heinsohn]

I just got an awesome Email from Craig Hansen (http://rwbl.net/reports/html/players/player_18911.html) demanding that he be given the chance to start games. He has a 3 in endurance, and has never started a game in 4 years. I could understand if his endurance was more like a 4 or 5, but it's just silly that he's pissed off about something like this.

Pitchers with an endurance of 3 are able to start, so why should he not ask for it if he thinks he could do a good job at it?

[Markus Heinsohn]

Actually, I see a lot of contract demands tied heavily to popularity. They have these wonderful settings about salary levels for different tiers of players, and it's more or less ignored.

Popularity is not used in the equation at all. The whole 'how much do I ask?'-code starts with the settings you mention and then is adjusted based on performance, playing time and how much the player likes the team that does the offer. I think the resulting demands are pretty reasonable... but of course, I am sure the dark cloud will dig out an example somewhere which proves me wrong... :D

[DanGarion]

Pitchers with an endurance of 3 are able to start, so why should he not ask for it if he thinks he could do a good job at it?

That is a 3 from a 1-10 rating... If 3s are typical starts in 1-10 maybe that's part of the problem Markus.

[Icy]

The pitcher endurance is my biggest problem in the last version.

In the RWBL, 1 season ago, i had some just low average pitchers, so the AI suggested all the time that my 5 stars closer should be the #1 ace... probably because he was very good (10/9/8) and knew 5 pitches, but but he had only 3 endurance so i never gave him the chance to start, as i don't start anybody with endurance<6 in the 1-10 scale.

The way i saw it, is that he had the arm and pitches to be an starter, but he wouldn't last more than 3 innings as starter, so what was the point on starting him for only 3 innings?

I'm still confused about it, as it seems that any pitcher that knows 3+ pitches could start but... for how many innings? would if really be a good choice?

[Young Drachma]

Popularity is not used in the equation at all. The whole 'how much do I ask?'-code starts with the settings you mention and then is adjusted based on performance, playing time and how much the player likes the team that does the offer. I think the resulting demands are pretty reasonable... but of course, I am sure the dark cloud will dig out an example somewhere which proves me wrong... :D

Nope. I just wanted to cite my knowledge of German mountain ranges...

I don't expect any sports text game to conform to any sort of logic that would please someone with an econ background. It requires too much background and would probably be hard to code because it's too fluid.

[Markus Heinsohn]

That is a 3 from a 1-10 rating... If 3s are typical starts in 1-10 maybe that's part of the problem Markus.

It's just a scale, so why should it be a problem? In real life most pitchers could give you 6+ innings on stamina alone, the reason they don't is that their stuff is not good enough. In fact, the majority of relievers in MLB were starters once (minors or college/high school) :)

The 'problem' might be that in the past OOTP used a different scale, anything below 5 on a 1-10 scale was considered a reliever and unable to start. That was pretty unrealistic, and we changed this in OOTP 10 with the introduction of the new pitching system.

Edit: Along with the change, we changed the name of the rating from 'endurance' to 'stamina', indicating that it's purely the physical stamina that is rated here. And anything above 2 (1-10) is considered physically able to give you 6+ innings.

[Markus Heinsohn]

Nope. I just wanted to cite my knowledge of German mountain ranges...

I don't expect any sports text game to conform to any sort of logic that would please someone with an econ background. It requires too much background and would probably be hard to code because it's too fluid.

Your sarcasm isn't especially constructive. If you provide me a league file with a few examples I could look into the issue in detail and see if there indeed is a problem. Or simply email me with an explanation how I can make the game work better in your opinion.

[Johnny93g]

Popularity is not used in the equation at all. The whole 'how much do I ask?'-code starts with the settings you mention and then is adjusted based on performance, playing time and how much the player likes the team that does the offer. I think the resulting demands are pretty reasonable... but of course, I am sure the dark cloud will dig out an example somewhere which proves me wrong... :D

In the RWBL, I was looking to keep a few guys in my minors, for depth, because they have ok ratings, and played ok at there levels. A 30 year old who has never played above AA, wants 3.5 million to resign. He's worth a minor league contract. A 27 year old in single A wanted 2.5 mil. These guys should be happy anyone want's to pay them to play baseball. That's a bit of an issue that wont affect anyone, sense they don't really affect anything in game, but if that doesn't work............

BTW, these are not isolated cases. I have seen them in every game in OOTP10.

I'm not trying to prove you wrong, I'm mentioning something in game that doesn't seem to work right.

[Markus Heinsohn]

In the RWBL, I was looking to keep a few guys in my minors, for depth, because they have ok ratings, and played ok at there levels. A 30 year old who has never played above AA, wants 3.5 million to resign. He's worth a minor league contract. A 27 year old in single A wanted 2.5 mil. These guys should be happy anyone want's to pay them to play baseball. That's a bit of an issue that wont affect anyone, sense they don't really affect anything in game, but if that doesn't work............

BTW, these are not isolated cases. I have seen them in every game in OOTP10.

I'm not trying to prove you wrong, I'm mentioning something in game that doesn't seem to work right.

That should not happen of course. I have not seen something like this yet, though. Usually guys in the minors will ask for a minor league contract extension unless they played in the majors that year.

[JPhillips]

It's just a scale, so why should it be a problem? In real life most pitchers could give you 6+ innings on stamina alone, the reason they don't is that their stuff is not good enough. In fact, the majority of relievers in MLB were starters once (minors or college/high school) :)

The 'problem' might be that in the past OOTP used a different scale, anything below 5 on a 1-10 scale was considered a reliever and unable to start. That was pretty unrealistic, and we changed this in OOTP 10 with the introduction of the new pitching system.

Edit: Along with the change, we changed the name of the rating from 'endurance' to 'stamina', indicating that it's purely the physical stamina that is rated here. And anything above 2 (1-10) is considered physically able to give you 6+ innings.

This is the first I've heard this. Is stamina related to a pitch count? What is the difference between a 3 and a 9 stamina?

[DanGarion]

Edit: Along with the change, we changed the name of the rating from 'endurance' to 'stamina', indicating that it's purely the physical stamina that is rated here. And anything above 2 (1-10) is considered physically able to give you 6+ innings.
Maybe that's the problem, it doesn't make logical sense that a 2 in stamina on a 1-10 scale would be able to pitch more than half a game. There really needs to be a form of logic to the numbers.

[Markus Heinsohn]

Maybe that's the problem, it doesn't make logical sense that a 2 in stamina on a 1-10 scale would be able to pitch more than half a game. There really needs to be a form of logic to the numbers.

A 2 doesn't, a 3 does. 25/100 is the cutoff point, which makes logical sense as about 75% of all pitchers in real life should be physically able to pitch 5-6 innings at least before tiring.

[Markus Heinsohn]

This is the first I've heard this. Is stamina related to a pitch count? What is the difference between a 3 and a 9 stamina?

A 25/100 can throw 90 pitches without tiring, a 100/100 can throw 140 pitches before tiring IIRC.

[DanGarion]

A 2 doesn't, a 3 does. 25/100 is the cutoff point, which makes logical sense as about 75% of all pitchers in real life should be physically able to pitch 5-6 innings at least before tiring.

But see this is the problem. You are basing a number that people tend to look at as exact on a scale. Let's just say for example.

1 = 15 pitches
2 = 60 pitches
3 = 70 pitches
4 = 80 pitches
5 = 90 pitches
6 = 100
7 = 110
8 = 120
9 = 130
10 = 140

When I think people understand and would look at it more like this.

1 = 14 pitches
2 = 28 pitches
3 = 42 pitches
4 = 56 pitches
5 = 70 pitches
6 = 84
7 = 98
8 = 112
9 = 126
10 = 140

I'm just trying to make an example, probably not a great one, but I don't understand how someone that is rated lower than 5 should be a starter, other than the fact that it is the way you made the game.

Also I realize there is a lot more into it than this.

[Young Drachma]

Your sarcasm isn't especially constructive. If you provide me a league file with a few examples I could look into the issue in detail and see if there indeed is a problem. Or simply email me with an explanation how I can make the game work better in your opinion.

What I'm trying to explain is pretty abstract, truth be told. I've built an entire suite of tools in Excel (that I've been adapting for 3 years now) aimed at making the game work better on the financial side and have more stuff to add to it.

But my specific gripe in this post was about player demands. Right now, in-game, you set the price points for various "star, above average, etc." players and then their demands are conformed around their perceived value of how they fit into those categories. So if a guy considers himself a star, he'll make a demand in-line with a star player, but what if no one in the league views him as a star? He should still take the best available offer, but he usually won't, he'll wait until spring training and then sign with a team on a one-year deal that's still high and if no one meets his demand, he'll sit out a year.

That's not realistic behavior.

So I'm saying, that player demands should be shaped around what the market offers and they should go with the best available offer of the team they like the best, not just wait out for a particular price point, because players don't set their market value, the market does.

The negative thing that happens here, is the predictability that ends up occurring in the way people make contract offers and sign deals as a result. That is, folks do whatever they can to make an offer to a guy within very rigid confines and when things don't go the way they perceive they should, they get mad. This is an online league problem, but in solo play it's even worse, because the AI just meets those demands without inserting any sort of logic as to whether the player is worth it or not. Understandably, that's a stretch, but..still.

I realize it's a bit issue though and more than that, it's just one of a larger set of issues that I think are more design decisions, rather than fundamental flaws with the game, so while I was raising them, there isn't a whole lot I expect you to fix when you have other priorities (and rightfully so, it's your game after all.)

[Markus Heinsohn]

But see this is the problem. You are basing a number that people tend to look at as exact on a scale. Let's just say for example.

1 = 15 pitches
2 = 60 pitches
3 = 70 pitches
4 = 80 pitches
5 = 90 pitches
6 = 100
7 = 110
8 = 120
9 = 130
10 = 140

When I think people understand and would look at it more like this.

1 = 14 pitches
2 = 28 pitches
3 = 42 pitches
4 = 56 pitches
5 = 70 pitches
6 = 84
7 = 98
8 = 112
9 = 126
10 = 140

I'm just trying to make an example, probably not a great one, but I don't understand how someone that is rated lower than 5 should be a starter, other than the fact that it is the way you made the game.

Also I realize there is a lot more into it than this.

I see your point, and we discussed this while designing the feature together with our beta testers. The scale we came up with was the one that made the most sense considering that most pitchers indeed can start, so a 5/10 cutoff point would be wasting half of the scale to just a small number of the total pitchers.

[Markus Heinsohn]

What I'm trying to explain is pretty abstract, truth be told. I've built an entire suite of tools in Excel (that I've been adapting for 3 years now) aimed at making the game work better on the financial side and have more stuff to add to it.

But my specific gripe in this post was about player demands. Right now, in-game, you set the price points for various "star, above average, etc." players and then their demands are conformed around their perceived value of how they fit into those categories. So if a guy considers himself a star, he'll make a demand in-line with a star player, but what if no one in the league views him as a star? He should still take the best available offer, but he usually won't, he'll wait until spring training and then sign with a team on a one-year deal that's still high and if no one meets his demand, he'll sit out a year.

That's not realistic behavior.

So I'm saying, that player demands should be shaped around what the market offers and they should go with the best available offer of the team they like the best, not just wait out for a particular price point, because players don't set their market value, the market does.

The negative thing that happens here, is the predictability that ends up occurring in the way people make contract offers and sign deals as a result. That is, folks do whatever they can to make an offer to a guy within very rigid confines and when things don't go the way they perceive they should, they get mad. This is an online league problem, but in solo play it's even worse, because the AI just meets those demands without inserting any sort of logic as to whether the player is worth it or not. Understandably, that's a stretch, but..still.

I realize it's a bit issue though and more than that, it's just one of a larger set of issues that I think are more design decisions, rather than fundamental flaws with the game, so while I was raising them, there isn't a whole lot I expect you to fix when you have other priorities (and rightfully so, it's your game after all.)

OK, that does make sense. I'll have to think about this. Thanks for taking the time to write this up :)

[DanGarion]

I see your point, and we discussed this while designing the feature together with our beta testers. The scale we came up with was the one that made the most sense considering that most pitchers indeed can start, so a 5/10 cutoff point would be wasting half of the scale to just a small number of the total pitchers.

Cool, I understand, and I shouldn't have assumed it worked the way I thought it would. Would love to help beta test someday...

[SackAttack]

It's just a scale, so why should it be a problem? In real life most pitchers could give you 6+ innings on stamina alone, the reason they don't is that their stuff is not good enough. In fact, the majority of relievers in MLB were starters once (minors or college/high school) :)

The 'problem' might be that in the past OOTP used a different scale, anything below 5 on a 1-10 scale was considered a reliever and unable to start. That was pretty unrealistic, and we changed this in OOTP 10 with the introduction of the new pitching system.

Edit: Along with the change, we changed the name of the rating from 'endurance' to 'stamina', indicating that it's purely the physical stamina that is rated here. And anything above 2 (1-10) is considered physically able to give you 6+ innings.

So where's the difference between a 2 and a 6, say, all other things being equal? If you have a guy with three above-average pitches - say, a fastball, change and curve rated at 6/10 each - a 2 rating in stamina and the same stuff/movement/control ratings as a guy with the same pitch/stuff/movement/control ratings as a '6' guy, if both are considered capable of going 6+, what's the realistic difference there?

Popularity is not used in the equation at all. The whole 'how much do I ask?'-code starts with the settings you mention and then is adjusted based on performance, playing time and how much the player likes the team that does the offer. I think the resulting demands are pretty reasonable... but of course, I am sure the dark cloud will dig out an example somewhere which proves me wrong... :D

The whole 'how much do I ask?' code starts somewhere, I'm sure, but the end result is dangling off the edge of a cliff. It's a train wreck. What Johnny93g pointed out has been par for the course in every OOTP 10 online league I've been in.

As far as your more recent point about 5/10 wasting half the scale...if the difference is that small between steps on the ladder, why not make that one a hardcoded 1-5, and let the different ratings scale options you've coded stand for the stuff where there IS more variation?

[Markus Heinsohn]

So where's the difference between a 2 and a 6, say, all other things being equal? If you have a guy with three above-average pitches - say, a fastball, change and curve rated at 6/10 each - a 2 rating in stamina and the same stuff/movement/control ratings as a guy with the same pitch/stuff/movement/control ratings as a '6' guy, if both are considered capable of going 6+, what's the realistic difference there?

A 3/10 can throw about 95 pitches before tiring, a 6/10 can throw about 120. a 2/10 only about 70, hence he is not considered being a possible regular starting pitcher. That's the difference :) The cutoff point is at 90 pitches, which equals a 25/100 rating.

[SackAttack]

So a '2' would be an emergency starter candidate, while a '3' would be considered capable of being a regular starter (albeit probably a 5th starter)?

[Markus Heinsohn]

The whole 'how much do I ask?' code starts somewhere, I'm sure, but the end result is dangling off the edge of a cliff. It's a train wreck. What Johnny93g pointed out has been par for the course in every OOTP 10 online league I've been in.

Strage that I'm not aware of this, this is definitely not tracked in our bug database. Well, I'll run some tests tomorrow :)

[Markus Heinsohn]

So a '2' would be an emergency starter candidate, while a '3' would be considered capable of being a regular starter (albeit probably a 5th starter)?

Yes, that's a pretty good explanation. Although, the AI does use 3-stamina guys as higher ranked starters as well if their stuff is very good.

Edit: Keep in mind though, that 'borderline starter' in OOTP is not defined by low stamina, but rather low stuff in combination with 3+/10 endurance. Borderline/emergency starters (as indicated in the player profile) do perform worse than when used in relief because their stuff is not good enough to dominate hitters a second time through the lineup...

[SackAttack]

Strage that I'm not aware of this, this is definitely not tracked in our bug database. Well, I'll run some tests tomorrow :)

I suspect part of it might be that it's guys who are older, as Johnny93g mentioned. My guess is a lot of OOTP players ditch the older guys, except at the AAA level, in favor of the annual influx of young talent (with the thought that a 22 year old might be more likely to suddenly BALCO up than a 28 year old).

Some people do actually try to retain their minor leaguers, even if they're not particularly talented, to serve as warm bodies to try and prevent injuries from happening.

But the former class is larger, probably even on the beta team, and so nobody thought to offer a contract to that 'meh' 28 y/o in AA.

[miked]

Strage that I'm not aware of this, this is definitely not tracked in our bug database. Well, I'll run some tests tomorrow :)

We see it too. There are like 5/4/5/5/5 type guys that rot in FA because they are asking for like 9M x 5 in FA, only to sign for the 600k they are worth once the season rolls. We have average to below average players set to under 1M. Same thing for arby. Some mediocre scrubs that are very popular getting 5M+ and more. It gets silly after a bit.

[SackAttack]

My larger issue is the wild swings you occasionally see in popularity over the course of a season. I've seen guys go from "Extremely Popular" to "Popular" and back, and I wanna tell you, that monkeys with their contract requests.

[miked]

We see it too. There are like 5/4/5/5/5 type guys that rot in FA because they are asking for like 9M x 5 in FA, only to sign for the 600k they are worth once the season rolls. We have average to below average players set to under 1M. Same thing for arby. Some mediocre scrubs that are very popular getting 5M+ and more. It gets silly after a bit.

Here's an example:

Player Report for #13 Jeremy Stevens (http://www.united-baseball.org/news/html/players/player_4718.html) awarded 9M.

This guy is very popular, his ratings are fairly mediocre and he's a 4* player basically because of his other attributes (speed, stealing, etc). He batted .287/11/76 with a fairly mediocre OBP (ok OPS). Obviously there's no way to take away the fact that the AI ranks this guy 4* because of speed and defense because his ratings are mediocre.

This next guy is an elite SP rated 9/6/7 (with 8/6/7 talents) with a whole host of pitches (mostly 7s and 8s). He went 15-10 and struck out 207 in 215 IP with a 3.70 ERA. His popularity is not so good. He was awarded 6.75M. http://www.united-baseball.org/news/html/players/player_5041.html

Shit, this guy Player Report for #71 César Carter (http://www.united-baseball.org/news/html/players/player_6138.html) won the triple crown and still couldn't sniff what the slightly above average IF got in arby. He's making 8.2M...with 9/8/6 ratings, a shit ton of pitches, and the triple crown. My 3* 5/7/8/7/6 OF is making 9M in arby, but the guy who won the triple crown is getting 8.2M??

[stevew]

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of the arbitration. The 1st year offers seem to be more like what they should get in the 3rd year.

Bryan Morris (http://www.rwbl.net/reports/html/players/player_25903.html) is super 2. He posted a VORP of -3.9. And his arbitration "suggested" is something like 4.3m. It should be less than half of that. I mean, a real world team considers non tendering him cause he might get 1.5M-ish.

[stevew]

I would suggest, much like there are the editable values for salary demands, that demands for arbitration be user controlled. By each year, as well.

First time eligible, etc.

[Markus Heinsohn]

My larger issue is the wild swings you occasionally see in popularity over the course of a season. I've seen guys go from "Extremely Popular" to "Popular" and back, and I wanna tell you, that monkeys with their contract requests.

No, believe me, popularity is not used in the algorythms which determine the demand.

[SackAttack]

No, believe me, popularity is not used in the algorythms which determine the demand.

No? So a player who puts up basically the same numbers all season, but goes from Popular and demands of $10m per to Extremely Popular and demands of $18m per, that's complete coincidence?

You'll pardon me if I remain skeptical.

[Markus Heinsohn]

No? So a player who puts up basically the same numbers all season, but goes from Popular and demands of $10m per to Extremely Popular and demands of $18m per, that's complete coincidence?

You'll pardon me if I remain skeptical.

Yes, that is 'coincidence'. However, (national) popularity is partly based on ratings + performance as well, so it is not really shocking that both popularity and demands move in the same direction, which makes perfect sense if you think about it. :)

[Markus Heinsohn]

I suspect part of it might be that it's guys who are older, as Johnny93g mentioned. My guess is a lot of OOTP players ditch the older guys, except at the AAA level, in favor of the annual influx of young talent (with the thought that a 22 year old might be more likely to suddenly BALCO up than a 28 year old).

OK, I found a few instances where old players in the minor leagues demanded major league contract extensions if they felt they should play in the major leagues talent-wise. These guys in OOTP 11 no longer ask for major league contract extensions unless they a) currently have a major league contract, b) played in the majors that year or c) it is still early in the season.

[SackAttack]

Yes, that is 'coincidence'. However, (national) popularity is partly based on ratings + performance as well, so it is not really shocking that both popularity and demands move in the same direction, which makes perfect sense if you think about it. :)

Bull.

Or, rather, popularity and demands would move in the same direction because both are performance driven, but:

1) If the performance is remaining static, popularity should not be changing that drastically in the span of two months unless he is having an epic season (not the case here).

2) popularity changes *are* not only incredibly drastic, but elastic within the same season, as well. I've seen players sign who were Very Popular/Very Popular when they put pen to paper and "Fair/Fair" within a month or two.

I've seen guys who came up through the system get to the show as "Very Popular/Very Popular," get demoted for performance, and by the end of the season, be "Unknown/Unknown."

Maybe they aren't specifically linked - and I'm still calling shenanigans on that, because my experience doesn't bear it out - but even if they're not, popularity does not swing that rapidly on a national scale, and shouldn't be swinging that rapidly on a local scale unless the player is having a major season either for good or ill (especially since OOTP doesn't really model off-field stuff like dating Madonna).

OK, I found a few instances where old players in the minor leagues demanded major league contract extensions if they felt they should play in the major leagues talent-wise. These guys in OOTP 11 no longer ask for major league contract extensions unless they a) currently have a major league contract, b) played in the majors that year or c) it is still early in the season.

I don't have a problem with them asking for major league contract extensions. A guy in AAA who thinks he's good enough to play in the pros probably SHOULD be asking for a major league deal under certain circumstances.

The problem is that it goes beyond guys like that. You see it happen with guys in AA/A who will never, realistically, see a major league roster, even as filler, but because they're 27 and have a 5/4/5/5/5 profile, they want to get paid.

[Markus Heinsohn]

Here's an example:

Player Report for #13 Jeremy Stevens (http://www.united-baseball.org/news/html/players/player_4718.html) awarded 9M.

This guy is very popular, his ratings are fairly mediocre and he's a 4* player basically because of his other attributes (speed, stealing, etc). He batted .287/11/76 with a fairly mediocre OBP (ok OPS). Obviously there's no way to take away the fact that the AI ranks this guy 4* because of speed and defense because his ratings are mediocre.

This next guy is an elite SP rated 9/6/7 (with 8/6/7 talents) with a whole host of pitches (mostly 7s and 8s). He went 15-10 and struck out 207 in 215 IP with a 3.70 ERA. His popularity is not so good. He was awarded 6.75M. Player Report for #10 Roberto Martínez (http://www.united-baseball.org/news/html/players/player_5041.html)

Shit, this guy Player Report for #71 César Carter (http://www.united-baseball.org/news/html/players/player_6138.html) won the triple crown and still couldn't sniff what the slightly above average IF got in arby. He's making 8.2M...with 9/8/6 ratings, a shit ton of pitches, and the triple crown. My 3* 5/7/8/7/6 OF is making 9M in arby, but the guy who won the triple crown is getting 8.2M??

If you did a little deeper, then this all makes sense. Stevens has 2 years more MLB service than Martinez, and since both are 4-star players and have produced a VORP around 40 last year it is no wonder that Stevens gets more money. Pitchers generally earn a bit less than comparable position players, which is true in real life as well.

Which brings us to Carter. I agree that this guy could have been awarded more, but maybe he asked for too much during hearings and the arbitrator settled for the team offer.

[Markus Heinsohn]

....

National popularity is based on a) overall ratings (read: star rating), b) past performance, c) personality, d) past achievements (3000 hits for example, or major awards won). c) + d) do not change drastically, but within 2 months a) can change a bit, as can b). So a drop from Extremely popular to popular does not seem like a problem at all, because maybe the player was on the lower side of extremely popular to begin with.

Local popularity has the same base as national popularity, but things like loyalty, work ethic, years with the current team (which of course changes when a player changes teams) and current season performance (which can change within 2 months quite a bit) play a bigger role.

I personally like how the popularity system works :)

[SackAttack]

National popularity is based on a) overall ratings (read: star rating), b) past performance, c) personality, d) past achievements (3000 hits for example, or major awards won). c) + d) do not change drastically, but within 2 months a) can change a bit, as can b). So a drop from Extremely popular to popular does not seem like a problem at all, because maybe the player was on the lower side of extremely popular to begin with.

Local popularity has the same base as national popularity, but things like loyalty, work ethic, years with the current team (which of course changes when a player changes teams) and current season performance (which can change within 2 months quite a bit) play a bigger role.

I personally like how the popularity system works :)

And that's why your game is broken. Past performance doesn't change. Not unless you're retconning the history books. Star ratings might change, but I guarantee you that Mike Piazza's popularity might *increase* as he starts hitting the shit out of the ball in 1993, but it isn't going to *decrease* drastically if he struggles in 1996. And it certainly isn't going to yo-yo from "have my babies" to "Sign this baseball card" to "have my babies" in the span of one season.

It is not going to drop if Joe Mauer shows up and starts hitting like a madman. Tying a player's popularity to his star rating is bogus, because a) popularity is sometimes irrational, and b) when a player is immensely popular, particularly within a specific locale, the emergence of star players at the position in another city doesn't decrease that popularity just because the other player might be better, throwing off the balance of the talent pool.

Or are you going to suggest that Pedro Martinez became less popular with the Red Sox because John Lackey and Felix Rodriguez came into the league?

A player's national popularity might be in greater flux, but that's going to depend on the *team's* national market, for one, and on outside events - like Manny's suspension, or a massive contract that Joe Six-Pack finds disgusting, say - that OOTP simply doesn't care about.

[Markus Heinsohn]

And that's why your game is broken.

Umm. It is broken because a tiny part of it does not work the way you think it should work? OK. I think we should just agree to disagree.

Edit: Anyway, I just changed the code a bit, the national + local popularity is now only recalculated once per year, right after the season ended, with national popularity only changing one step at a time. Local popularity also gets recalculated if the player changes teams. That way, you will see less popularity changes.

[SackAttack]

Umm. It is broken because a tiny part of it does not work the way you think it should work? OK. I think we should just agree to disagree.

A tiny part? Would you like me to air all of my grievances with the way OOTP does things, right down to citing things that I think are derived from fundamental cultural lack of understanding of the sport?

Or instead of taking me at the literal meaning of that sentence, would you prefer to accept that when I call the game broken, I am using that as a microcosmic example of more widespread issues?

We can "agree to disagree" all you want, and it's no skin offa mine.

But the bottom line is, there are a number of things that are fundamentally broken. You've said yourself in this thread that you've lost development time to illness this year (for which I am sorry; being sick sucks, and missing work because of it sucks worse), and that you plan a shorter development cycle this year than in years past.

Considering my jaundiced view of OOTP X's current condition, that doesn't give me a lot of hope that things will be better with the new game. I'll be honest, if I had to make the decision today, I would not be buying OOTP 11.

But, look - here's a deal I'm willing to make with you. Let's take this discussion private. I've got a laundry list of issues, if that hasn't already been made abundantly clear. I will share those criticisms with you, but I need two things in return.

1) A thick skin. We can't have an open and forthright discussion if my level of bluntness puts you on the defensive. And I can't be completely honest if I'm worried about stepping on your toes.

2) A clear response. If you agreed, and made changes, what changes and why? If you disagreed with my assessment, why? Give me the opportunity, if we are still in disagreement thereafter, to persuade you.

If you can bring me around to your way of thinking, or we otherwise make progress on the things I think are fundamentally broken, I'll back up my mouth with my wallet and make a day-one purchase.

Are you game?

[Markus Heinsohn]

Are you game?

Yes. markus(at)ootpdevelopments.com :)

[SackAttack]

Yes. markus(at)ootpdevelopments.com :)

Okay.

I doubt very much if I can get a substantive list to you before Monday, because it's 4:30am here, I work at 9, the Super Bowl is in the evening, and so forth. ;)

But you'll have my first email in your inbox sometime Monday afternoon or evening!

[Markus Heinsohn]

Okay.

I doubt very much if I can get a substantive list to you before Monday, because it's 4:30am here, I work at 9, the Super Bowl is in the evening, and so forth. ;)

But you'll have my first email in your inbox sometime Monday afternoon or evening!

Looking forward to it, and thanks for your time!

[SackAttack]

Looking forward to it, and thanks for your time!

Likewise, thanks for yours.

[miked]

If you did a little deeper, then this all makes sense. Stevens has 2 years more MLB service than Martinez, and since both are 4-star players and have produced a VORP around 40 last year it is no wonder that Stevens gets more money. Pitchers generally earn a bit less than comparable position players, which is true in real life as well.

Which brings us to Carter. I agree that this guy could have been awarded more, but maybe he asked for too much during hearings and the arbitrator settled for the team offer.

Well, I appreciate the response, but I guess we'll just have to disagree. If you tell me there is no way popularity is involved, I'll buy it. But should a 5/9/4/6/5 IF be 4* because he is fast and plays good defense?

[Markus Heinsohn]

Well, I appreciate the response, but I guess we'll just have to disagree. If you tell me there is no way popularity is involved, I'll buy it. But should a 5/9/4/6/5 IF be 4* because he is fast and plays good defense?

Yes, looks like for a SS he is good at his position overall. The star rating is always relative to other players at the same position in the league, so even a 2/2/2/2/2 SS could have 4 stars, if the average SS is even worse than that.

EDIT: There is an option in the league setup to base the stars rating on all players, not just the players of the same position.

[cougarfreak]

And that's why your game is broken. Past performance doesn't change. Not unless you're retconning the history books. Star ratings might change, but I guarantee you that Mike Piazza's popularity might *increase* as he starts hitting the shit out of the ball in 1993, but it isn't going to *decrease* drastically if he struggles in 1996. And it certainly isn't going to yo-yo from "have my babies" to "Sign this baseball card" to "have my babies" in the span of one season.

It is not going to drop if Joe Mauer shows up and starts hitting like a madman. Tying a player's popularity to his star rating is bogus, because a) popularity is sometimes irrational, and b) when a player is immensely popular, particularly within a specific locale, the emergence of star players at the position in another city doesn't decrease that popularity just because the other player might be better, throwing off the balance of the talent pool.

Or are you going to suggest that Pedro Martinez became less popular with the Red Sox because John Lackey and Felix Rodriguez came into the league?

A player's national popularity might be in greater flux, but that's going to depend on the *team's* national market, for one, and on outside events - like Manny's suspension, or a massive contract that Joe Six-Pack finds disgusting, say - that OOTP simply doesn't care about.

Sorry, I disagree for all but the biggest stars. Once Bernie Williams stopped being Bernie Williams, his popularity dropped. Same for a guy like Eric Davis, or I might even argue Randy Johnson. Did anyone tune in or go to a ballpark just to see the Big Unit pitch in the last few years? I bet more turned out just to see him pitch back in the early 00's days. Now, I can see your point with a guy like a Jeter, or a Ripken, or Gwynn. But not with most of your guys who aren't hall of famers. And to say the game is "broken" because of this? Maybe I'm in the minority, but OOTP is a game that I get more enjoyment out of, for less money than your average game.

[SackAttack]

Sorry, I disagree for all but the biggest stars. Once Bernie Williams stopped being Bernie Williams, his popularity dropped. Same for a guy like Eric Davis, or I might even argue Randy Johnson. Did anyone tune in or go to a ballpark just to see the Big Unit pitch in the last few years? I bet more turned out just to see him pitch back in the early 00's days. Now, I can see your point with a guy like a Jeter, or a Ripken, or Gwynn. But not with most of your guys who aren't hall of famers. And to say the game is "broken" because of this? Maybe I'm in the minority, but OOTP is a game that I get more enjoyment out of, for less money than your average game.

But see, the point you're arguing is when Bernie stops being Bernie.

Not when Bernie goes into a half-season slump.

You see what I'm saying? If Bernie struggles in the first half, he's not going to become an "Unknown" by midseason.

If Bernie puts up an extended run of 2-3 seasons where he's just not getting it done...then you're absolutely right. But in OOTP, it doesn't *take* 2-3 seasons. I've seen guys lose popularity both locally and nationally for no reason other than signing a contract. The changes have been too extreme and nonsensical.

Do you see where I'm coming from on that? We're not talking about a good player (or even a great player) who hits his declining years. That's a tiger of an entirely different stripe from what I'm grousing about.

[SackAttack]

Dola,

With Randy Johnson approaching 300 wins in the last coupla? I'm fairly certain people DID go to the park to see him pitch, if only to be able to tell their kids they saw a 300-game winner live.

A guy like Eric Davis is a great example of when the system should operate in the manner which I've described that it *has* operated.

But if you're talking about the Royals, does Zack Greinke stop being popular if he gets roughed up for the first 2-3 months of the 2010 season? That's a tough bill of goods to sell me on. Even the Giants, who are a good team, but pretty clearly have Tim Lincecum and Pablo Sandoval as the faces of the franchise. The former *could* be a Hall candidate someday, while the latter is, at this point, a very good player. But neither one of those guys is going to fall into disfavor if they have a couple of cold months, because they've established themselves with that fanbase.

Andruw Jones, on the other hand, didn't take long at all to rub Dodger fans the wrong way. There's a guy who might well BE the player he was with Atlanta, but because he never established goodwill with the fans in the first place, never took the step from flavor of the day to "popular," was a prime candidate for a violent anti-Jones mood swing.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I personally like how the popularity system works :)

Edit: Anyway, I just changed the code a bit, the national + local popularity is now only recalculated once per year, right after the season ended, with national popularity only changing one step at a time. Local popularity also gets recalculated if the player changes teams. That way, you will see less popularity changes.
:chickendance:

[cougarfreak]

But see, the point you're arguing is when Bernie stops being Bernie.

Not when Bernie goes into a half-season slump.

You see what I'm saying? If Bernie struggles in the first half, he's not going to become an "Unknown" by midseason.

If Bernie puts up an extended run of 2-3 seasons where he's just not getting it done...then you're absolutely right. But in OOTP, it doesn't *take* 2-3 seasons. I've seen guys lose popularity both locally and nationally for no reason other than signing a contract. The changes have been too extreme and nonsensical.

Do you see where I'm coming from on that? We're not talking about a good player (or even a great player) who hits his declining years. That's a tiger of an entirely different stripe from what I'm grousing about.

Yeah, I see your point, but I still get more gameplay out of it than any other game I've bought. I'm a baseball first guy, and for me, it's been a great purchase.

[Johnny93g]

But see, the point you're arguing is when Bernie stops being Bernie.

Not when Bernie goes into a half-season slump.

You see what I'm saying? If Bernie struggles in the first half, he's not going to become an "Unknown" by midseason.

If Bernie puts up an extended run of 2-3 seasons where he's just not getting it done...then you're absolutely right. But in OOTP, it doesn't *take* 2-3 seasons. I've seen guys lose popularity both locally and nationally for no reason other than signing a contract. The changes have been too extreme and nonsensical.

Do you see where I'm coming from on that? We're not talking about a good player (or even a great player) who hits his declining years. That's a tiger of an entirely different stripe from what I'm grousing about.

Vernon Wells fits your example perfectly. 2-3 seasons of crap, and he's now hated

[DanGarion]

I think we can all agree, this right here, the interaction we are having with Markus, is what makes independent gaming and this community so awesome. thanks for taking the time to respond to our issues Markus.

[PilotMan]

I think we can all agree, this right here, the interaction we are having with Markus, is what makes independent gaming and this community so awesome. thanks for taking the time to respond to our issues Markus.

:+1: Thanks

[SackAttack]

Vernon Wells fits your example perfectly. 2-3 seasons of crap, and he's now hated

Yes. Exactly.

2-3 *seasons*.

Not 2-3 *months*.

[Sun Tzu]

I'd kill for a transcript of this email back and forth.

additionally...thanks Markus

[DaddyTorgo]

or at least a summary when it's all over...be curious to see what sort of things are being addressed and what sort of improvements come from it

[Sweed]

right down to citing things that I think are derived from fundamental cultural lack of understanding of the sport?


If you feel like sharing this one always makes me curious. Many mention that with Markus being German he misses out on some native understanding of the game that those of us from the US have. Never have heard anyone explain what they mean though. I've been watching baseball since 1968 and for the life of me I don't know what this is about. OOTP is as American to me as Strat or Lance Haffner baseball. What am I missing?

[Rizon]

If you feel like sharing this one always makes me curious. Many mention that with Markus being German he misses out on some native understanding of the game that those of us from the US have. Never have heard anyone explain what they mean though. I've been watching baseball since 1968 and for the life of me I don't know what this is about. OOTP is as American to me as Strat or Lance Haffner baseball. What am I missing?

Most Americans I know don't understand baseball, and roughly 90% of those that attend SF Giant's games at Pacbell/AT&T/Whateverparkitisnow don't understand baseball as well.

[Samdari]

Did anyone tune in or go to a ballpark just to see the Big Unit pitch in the last few years? I bet more turned out just to see him pitch back in the early 00's days.


Actually, yes. And you have this completely backwards.

The early 00's teams were good, so the team drew quite well. Johnson pitching made some, but marginal, impact on attendance.

The past few years, when there were few familiar faces, his impact on attendance has been larger than when he was dominant early in the decade. Arizona, in the middle of a complete youth movement, went and got him back from the Yankees solely to sell tickets.

[cougarfreak]

Actually, yes. And you have this completely backwards.

The early 00's teams were good, so the team drew quite well. Johnson pitching made some, but marginal, impact on attendance.

The past few years, when there were few familiar faces, his impact on attendance has been larger than when he was dominant early in the decade. Arizona, in the middle of a complete youth movement, went and got him back from the Yankees solely to sell tickets.

How many tickets did he sell in Arizona, or on the road compared to when he pitched early in his career when he was good in AZ and Seattle? Not as many.

[johnnyshaka]

How many tickets did he sell in Arizona, or on the road compared to when he pitched early in his career when he was good in AZ and Seattle? Not as many.

Just had a quick peek at his recent game logs...I'm an A's fan so I noticed his start at the end of this past June drew 35,000...the starting pitcher the night before drew 32,000...his name, Tim Lincecum. Before you ask, Johnson's game was on a Wednesday.

Randy Johnson still sells tickets.

[DanGarion]

Just had a quick peek at his recent game logs...I'm an A's fan so I noticed his start at the end of this past June drew 35,000...the starting pitcher the night before drew 32,000...his name, Tim Lincecum. Before you ask, Johnson's game was on a Wednesday.

Randy Johnson still sells tickets.

Are you sure, it might have been free 9mm night or something.

[johnnyshaka]

Fair enough...it could have been free ammo night but MLB doesn't list those sort of things. Heck, maybe it was free Viagra night!!!

[cougarfreak]

Just had a quick peek at his recent game logs...I'm an A's fan so I noticed his start at the end of this past June drew 35,000...the starting pitcher the night before drew 32,000...his name, Tim Lincecum. Before you ask, Johnson's game was on a Wednesday.

Randy Johnson still sells tickets.

Was it free stilts night, or bring your 6' 10 friend, get in free night? :)

[Johnny93g]

I think those that said Arbitration needs work are correct.

Young players, in their first year of arbitration are making a crazy amount of money.

In my RWBL team, Travis Snider had a good year, his 2nd full season and 1st as a starter. He's 26, hit 26 homers, 79 rbi's, hit around .270. Arbitration awarded him 6 million for the upcoming season. I offered 3.5. I lost, but that's crazy, he's a 1.5 star player!!

Colby Rasmus, a 4.5 star player came off a horrible season, where he hit 250, with 11 hr's and 50ish rbi's, i won that case, and he made 7.5 mil!!!

Both cases, opposite stats, opposite ratings, crazy salary awards. I just don't know why either player's "salary number" was so high. Is it the performance, is it the ratings, I'm missing something

I would like to see the option of walking away from arbitration results if the team disagree's with them. I think a nice feature would also be for a team to gain loyalty from players when they avoid arbitration, as the process in real life is not endearing to anyone. I know the Blue Jays haven't gone to arbitration in something like 10 years. Make it advantageous to avoid it.

[stevew]

The Type A compensation is laughable.

I've thrown 141 innings in 2 years, with an era over 5.5
Carlos Zambrano (http://rwbl.net/reports/html/players/player_18045.html)


I've pitched 93 innings in 2 years, and am 1-8(wins would be I think 1/5th of the factor for MR type a/b classification)
Braden Looper (http://rwbl.net/reports/html/players/player_10823.html)

I'm a MR, and I have 12 wins over the last two seasons, but my ERA is still >5.2

Angel Guzman (http://rwbl.net/reports/html/players/player_18971.html)

My advice is to track down the dude on MLBTradeRumors who reverse engineered the MLB formulas for compensation. And see if he can help you. Cause while none of those 3 guys will get signed for compensation, it really makes the game look awful.

[johnnyshaka]

I would like to see the option of walking away from arbitration results if the team disagree's with them. I think a nice feature would also be for a team to gain loyalty from players when they avoid arbitration, as the process in real life is not endearing to anyone. I know the Blue Jays haven't gone to arbitration in something like 10 years. Make it advantageous to avoid it.

If the player is asking too much simply don't offer arbitration and you are done with it. But if you enter into arbitration and hope to low-ball a player, then you get what you deserve.

Joey Devine (http://www.rwbl.net/reports/html/players/player_18711.html) in the RWBL was one wacky arbitration case I remember during my time there. Missed the entire '09 season and up until that point had pitched something like 60 innings and is asking for around $5 million or so, IIRC. Huh?

[miked]

I think those that said Arbitration needs work are correct.

Young players, in their first year of arbitration are making a crazy amount of money.

In my RWBL team, Travis Snider had a good year, his 2nd full season and 1st as a starter. He's 26, hit 26 homers, 79 rbi's, hit around .270. Arbitration awarded him 6 million for the upcoming season. I offered 3.5. I lost, but that's crazy, he's a 1.5 star player!!

Colby Rasmus, a 4.5 star player came off a horrible season, where he hit 250, with 11 hr's and 50ish rbi's, i won that case, and he made 7.5 mil!!!

Both cases, opposite stats, opposite ratings, crazy salary awards. I just don't know why either player's "salary number" was so high. Is it the performance, is it the ratings, I'm missing something

I would like to see the option of walking away from arbitration results if the team disagree's with them. I think a nice feature would also be for a team to gain loyalty from players when they avoid arbitration, as the process in real life is not endearing to anyone. I know the Blue Jays haven't gone to arbitration in something like 10 years. Make it advantageous to avoid it.

Well, part of that may also be the AI settings. If it's set to heavily weigh ratings, then sure, stats shouldn't matter as much. In my league I think we go 65% or higher on ratings, because guys who have a half good season ask for the moon if it's too high on weighing stats. And I'm not sure you can walk away from arbitration in real life.

[Sgran]

The Type A compensation is laughable.

I've thrown 141 innings in 2 years, with an era over 5.5
Carlos Zambrano (http://rwbl.net/reports/html/players/player_18045.html)


I've pitched 93 innings in 2 years, and am 1-8(wins would be I think 1/5th of the factor for MR type a/b classification)
Braden Looper (http://rwbl.net/reports/html/players/player_10823.html)

I'm a MR, and I have 12 wins over the last two seasons, but my ERA is still >5.2

Angel Guzman (http://rwbl.net/reports/html/players/player_18971.html)

My advice is to track down the dude on MLBTradeRumors who reverse engineered the MLB formulas for compensation. And see if he can help you. Cause while none of those 3 guys will get signed for compensation, it really makes the game look awful.

Of course, two of those 3 are Cubs (my team). You also could have added Ryan Dempster. He was listed as Type A, but I didn't offer him arbitration because I didn't want to get stuck paying him crazy money on the off chance he accepted (he made $14 mil last year).

[DaddyTorgo]

Well, part of that may also be the AI settings. If it's set to heavily weigh ratings, then sure, stats shouldn't matter as much. In my league I think we go 65% or higher on ratings, because guys who have a half good season ask for the moon if it's too high on weighing stats. And I'm not sure you can walk away from arbitration in real life.

Isn't that the problem with creating a game that is so customizable though, is that it creates these problems? If the game was more "buttoned up" then it would presumably have fewer issues like this.

And I know part of the appeal is "super customization," but when that "super customization" breaks the #1 baseball league in the world (and honestly probably the majority of reasons for your sales) then that's an issue.

[Johnny93g]

If the player is asking too much simply don't offer arbitration and you are done with it. But if you enter into arbitration and hope to low-ball a player, then you get what you deserve.

Joey Devine (http://www.rwbl.net/reports/html/players/player_18711.html) in the RWBL was one wacky arbitration case I remember during my time there. Missed the entire '09 season and up until that point had pitched something like 60 innings and is asking for around $5 million or so, IIRC. Huh?

I don't have a problem with losing the case. I think the computer suggestion was 4.5 million. I lost, he asked for much more then he's worth, imo, i offered what i felt was a fair deal for a 1 year starter with limited ratings.

My point is the computer had to think he was worth that much based on his number's, but not his ratings. On the other hand, a player, Rasmus, who had a awful season, got rewarded based on his ratings, not his stats.

Common sense suggests both players got rewarded way too much considering it's there first arbitration year, and the points i tried to make.

Joey Devine is a great example. What's that demand based on? He's a good pitcher, rated well, but he had done next to nothing to argue for that money other then "he has the tool's to be succesful". Now that he's actually established himself as a good, legitimate reliever, an all-star selection, some great numbers, he's not asking or getting rewarded as much.

[Johnny93g]

Well, part of that may also be the AI settings. If it's set to heavily weigh ratings, then sure, stats shouldn't matter as much. In my league I think we go 65% or higher on ratings, because guys who have a half good season ask for the moon if it's too high on weighing stats. And I'm not sure you can walk away from arbitration in real life.

You may be right, I could be assuming you can because i know NHL teams are allowed to, which has happened, if they are unhappy with the ruling.

[markprior22]

Isn't that the problem with creating a game that is so customizable though, is that it creates these problems? If the game was more "buttoned up" then it would presumably have fewer issues like this.

And I know part of the appeal is "super customization," but when that "super customization" breaks the #1 baseball league in the world (and honestly probably the majority of reasons for your sales) then that's an issue.

I've bought every version of OOTP since 3, and if I had one "complaint" this would be it. I wish the MLB setup (historical and fictional) was spot on before adding all the options that are available.

[stevew]

You can walk away from arbitration for something like 1/6th, IIRC. Basically 30 days termination pay.

[Sweed]

You can walk away from arbitration for something like 1/6th, IIRC. Basically 30 days termination pay.

I'm no expert on the subject but this surprises me. I thought once you entered, club or player, it was an either\or that both parties were agreeing to.

I'll defer and accept that you are right since I'm only going on my own perceived belief. I will ask this though, can the player walk away too? At what cost? Seems a bit unfair if the club has an out but the player doesn't. Also have a hard time thinking the union went along with an out for the club only?

Look at it this way..
Player wants 5mil club offers 2mil. Arbiter sides with player at 5mil. Club says no thanks and cuts him a check for a little over 800k?

Now..Same situation but arbiter sides with club player only gets 2mil, hardly fair with no out when player feels surely on the open market he'll get 3+? Or are you saying the player can also opt out and pay the club 1/6th? In this case the player can opt out and owe the club a ~ 330K to buy his free agency?

Doesn't sound right to me but then who knows what kind of stuff is buried in the small print.

[stevew]

I just remember that one thing that boras said when he shit the bed and didn't take Boston offering arb for Veritek was that he could accept the offer. But that Boston could walk away with 30 days termination pay. I may have read it wrong.

[McSweeny]

I just remember that one thing that boras said when he shit the bed and didn't take Boston offering arb for Veritek was that he could accept the offer. But that Boston could walk away with 30 days termination pay. I may have read it wrong.

No, you are absolutely correct. The Red Sox did the same thing with Tony Graffanino. After the 2005 season Graffanino accepted arbitration and was subsequently released by the Red Sox towards the end of spring training and was only owed 1/6 of his salary.

[stevew]

Sweed

In a players arbitration years he has to take the deal. Now he can't get more than a 10% reduction. If a guy is out of his arbitration years and accepts it to avoid FA he basically knows what salary he will get. Basically your 2/5 scenerio could never happen. The player would be under club control. Or would be getting a fairly big chunk of change.

[Sweed]

Sweed

In a players arbitration years he has to take the deal. Now he can't get more than a 10% reduction. If a guy is out of his arbitration years and accepts it to avoid FA he basically knows what salary he will get. Basically your 2/5 scenerio could never happen. The player would be under club control. Or would be getting a fairly big chunk of change.

Thanks, never realized that clubs actually had an out. Everywhere I've seen it in action or described I was left with the impression, as I said earlier, that it was either or for both parties. Live and learn.

[MizzouRah]

This series needs 2d/3d game watching... the stats are way beyond too deep for me.. I'm at the point where X will be my last purchase until some sort of game play graphics are added.. if that is ever on the horizon for Markus...

I want to see a game unfold before my eyes, ie FPS Baseball, FM 2010..

[SunDevil]

Guys,

This is the related thread on the OOTP board. It is pretty big, but there are some interesting discussions and revelations.

A little OOTP 11 update... (http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/ootp-10-general-discussions/192604-little-out-park-baseball-11-update.html)

[Johnny93g]

Guys,

This is the related thread on the OOTP board. It is pretty big, but there are some interesting discussions and revelations.

A little OOTP 11 update... (http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/ootp-10-general-discussions/192604-little-out-park-baseball-11-update.html)

It's 18 pages, does the 1st post cover the updates, or is there more stuff buried in there?

[SunDevil]

It is the discussion in the 17 pages after the first page.

[DanGarion]

It is the discussion in the 17 pages after the first page.

I find a lot of the guys that posted over there are morons, especially the idiot that suggested OOTP include no stats and the only way to acquire stats should be watching each and every game and scoring them yourself...

[lighthousekeeper]

It is the discussion in the 17 pages after the first page.

Based on your suggestion, I spent the 30 minutes reading all 17 pages, only to discover that there were only 1 or 2 posts worth reading. One of those is that Markus said he will add baserunning decisions back into the game (i.e. when a runner is on third, the game will let you decide whether you allow the player to tag up, etc.) Other than that and post#1, the thread was useless.

[stevew]

I can't do the OOTP boards. Too much idiocy.

That being said, if anyone wants in the RWBL, shoot me a PM. I have one or two openings. At the least the braves are open(and are f'n stacked.

[cougarfreak]

I can't do the OOTP boards. Too much idiocy.

That being said, if anyone wants in the RWBL, shoot me a PM. I have one or two openings. At the least the braves are open(and are f'n stacked.

Quoted for truth. I've pretty much given up on those boards as well. I love the game, but those boards went sour about the same time they went with SI.

[CleBrownsfan]

Based on your suggestion, I spent the 30 minutes reading all 17 pages, only to discover that there were only 1 or 2 posts worth reading. One of those is that Markus said he will add baserunning decisions back into the game (i.e. when a runner is on third, the game will let you decide whether you allow the player to tag up, etc.) Other than that and post#1, the thread was useless.

Didn't Stat-O-Matic have it where you make the decision with a percentage of success?

[cougarfreak]

Didn't Stat-O-Matic have it where you make the decision with a percentage of success?

If you're an ootp vet, you know this used to be in the game. I'm looking forward to having that control again, as a manager. I know it's now all that reaslitic, but I had that control as a 3b coach when I was a HS coach. :)