Plane hits a building in Austin

[cartman]

Holy shit, this is less than a mile from my office. I can see the smoke.

Plane crashes into building in Austin, Texas - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/02/18/texas.plane.crash/index.html?hpt=T1)

[bigdawg2003]

I was driving from Leander on 183-S and drove by the building. Didn't know a plane had hit it until I got back to my office. Very sad

[KWhit]

Word is that this was deliberate. Evidently, it is an IRS building.

[KWhit]

CNN:

12:42 p.m.: The pilot of the plane had set his house on fire beforehand, stole the plane and crashed it intentionally, a federal official told CNN.

[flere-imsaho]

Tea Partier?

:D

[Kodos]

Certainly a better option than paying taxes.

[cartman]

One of my buddies works for Gemalto, which is in the building right next to this one. He's heading home, they've shut off power to the area so that rescue crews can safely get to some parts of the building that was hit.

[KWhit]

Now CNN is saying it's next door to an FBI building but the building itself may not be an IRS building.

[lighthousekeeper]

I was working a few blocks from there yesterday.

[cartman]

There is a huge IRS campus in south Austin. If this was done intentionally, he must have known his target worked in that building, rather than just picking an IRS target at random.

[cartman]

Apparently the guy posted a lengthy diatribe this morning:

Austin news, sports, weather, Longhorns, business | Statesman.com (http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/blotter/entries/2010/02/18/internet_note_posted_by_man_li.html)

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Dear Joe,

tl;dr

Signed,

Sane People

[KWhit]

Apparently the guy posted a lengthy diatribe this morning:

Austin news, sports, weather, Longhorns, business | Statesman.com (http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/blotter/entries/2010/02/18/internet_note_posted_by_man_li.html)

Wow. Just read that (most of it, anyway).

Yeah, he was going after the IRS all right.

[KWhit]

I saw it written once that the definition of insanity is repeating the same process over and over and expecting the outcome to suddenly be different. I am finally ready to stop this insanity. Well, Mr. Big Brother IRS man, let’s try something different; take my pound of flesh and sleep well.

Sheesh.

[KWhit]

Weird.

The Department of Homeland Security has made multiple statements about this and keep saying "This is not terrorism." So, um... It was (by all accounts) someone deliberately flying a plane into government offices as a response to our government's policies.

If not that, WTF is terrorism?

[cartman]

Weird.

The Department of Homeland Security has made multiple statements about this and keep saying "This is not terrorism." So, um... It was (by all accounts) someone deliberately flying a plane into government offices as a response to our government's policies.

If not that, WTF is terrorism?

He's a white guy, expressing his patriotism in his own unique way.

[Antmeister]

I work right across the freeway from this disaster two of my coworkers saw this as it happened. If I was here a bit earlier, I would have witnessed it myself, but luckily I didn't.

One of my co-workers saw the plane as he drove past the building on his way to work, heard the crash and drove back around to take pics:
http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs239.snc3/22652_318306586471_659671471_4123759_4349548_n.jpg
http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs219.snc3/22652_318306596471_659671471_4123760_1849434_n.jpg

[wade moore]

:(

[SportsDino]

Ya, it is terrorism pretty plain and clear.

[Chief Rum]

Man, just how many of you people live and work around this building?

I never realized how much FOFC revolved around Austin, TX.

[Antmeister]

To be honest, neither did I. I know of cartman and no one else.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Man, just how many of you people live and work around this building?

I never realized how much FOFC revolved around Austin, TX.

I was chatting with Bill Harris about this situation. He works a couple hundred yards from this building. I'm sure he'll post about his experience on his blog in the coming days.

[kingfc22]

Ummmm where do all these nutbags come from. Yeesh.

[Antmeister]

Well the creepy thing is that he burned his house which is less than half a mile from where I live and he crashed a plane less than half a mile from where I work. Sad and disturbing to know how many lives he just turned upside down. In fact reports say that his wife and daughter left the house to stay at a hotel because he was going on a tirade yesterday. They returned in the morning to see their house burned down and would soon learn of the crash. Geez.

[albionmoonlight]

Asshole.

[Dr. Sak]

I never realized how much FOFC revolved around Austin, TX.

Surprising that the world doesn't revolve around the West Coast I see... :)

[Chief Rum]

Surprising that the world doesn't revolve around the West Coast I see... :)

Heh...if anyone out here was under that delusion, it would be quickly removed by turning on ESPN. ;)

[DeToxRox]

Well Mr. Big Brother IRS man... take my pound of flesh and sleep well. (http://embeddedart.com/)

Apparently this is the guy who crashed into the buildings manifest.

[ISiddiqui]

Just read his internet screed. Damn... seemed to be anti-government and anti-corporation - kind of the government and corporations are screwing over the middle class, so I'll show them type of terrorist action.

[ace1914]

Just can't tell who is the terrorist nowadays.

[cartman]

Yeah, the Internet Time Masheen shows that website as being for his programming company, before he changed the front page.

[DaddyTorgo]

Man, just how many of you people live and work around this building?

I never realized how much FOFC revolved around Austin, TX.


seriously - you guys could have an epic fucking meetup

[cartman]

When I read this part of the screed:

. I know there have been countless before me and there are sure to be as many after. But I also know that by not adding my body to the count, I insure nothing will change.

It immediately brought to mind this:

<embed src="http://media.mtvnservices.com/mgid:cms:item:southparkstudios.com:149876" width="480" height="400" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="window" flashVars="autoPlay=false&dist=www.southparkstudios.com&orig=" allowFullScreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" allownetworking="all" bgcolor="#000000"></embed>

No, I don't have a South Park problem. I can stop watching anytime I want.

[DaddyTorgo]

Ummmm where do all these nutbags come from. Yeesh.

Texas? ;)

[sterlingice]

He's a white guy, expressing his patriotism in his own unique way.

Bingo.

SI

[sterlingice]

Scary thing is that I agree with a lot of what the guy writes in his rant. It's pretty non-partisan, taking whacks at everyone out there on a variety of issues. And, frankly, it's a lot of the same stuff I know I talk about at work all the time and probably a lot of others do as well.

Not planning on flying a plane into a building any time soon to prove a point, tho.

SI

[cartman]

Scary thing is that I agree with a lot of what the guy writes in his rant. It's pretty non-partisan, taking whacks at everyone out there on a variety of issues. And, frankly, it's a lot of the same stuff I know I talk about at work all the time and probably a lot of others do as well.

Not planning on flying a plane into a building any time soon to prove a point, tho.

SI

or setting your house on fire, right??? RIGHT???

[sterlingice]

or setting your house on fire, right??? RIGHT???

Well, I have no house to set on fire so that'd be a tough one. I do have an apartment but that probably voids my security deposit, I'm guessing.

SI

[Tigercat]

or setting your house on fire, right??? RIGHT???

Are there IRS people inside his house at the time?

[Dutch]

I work right across the freeway from this disaster two of my coworkers saw this as it happened. If I was here a bit earlier, I would have witnessed it myself, but luckily I didn't.

One of my co-workers saw the plane as he drove past the building on his way to work, heard the crash and drove back around to take pics:
http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs239.snc3/22652_318306586471_659671471_4123759_4349548_n.jpg
http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs219.snc3/22652_318306596471_659671471_4123760_1849434_n.jpg

This is absolutely disgusting in this day and age...who still gets their damn picture taking finger in the way when they shoot pics????

[CU Tiger]

Scary thing is that I agree with a lot of what the guy writes in his rant. It's pretty non-partisan, taking whacks at everyone out there on a variety of issues. And, frankly, it's a lot of the same stuff I know I talk about at work all the time and probably a lot of others do as well.

Not planning on flying a plane into a building any time soon to prove a point, tho.

SI

+1

[molson]

This is absolutely disgusting in this day and age...who still gets their damn picture taking finger in the way when they shoot pics????

Seriously - I think my mother must have taken that picture.

So I just skimmed this guy's "manifesto" - he's basically just a tax cheat that blames everyone else for his crimes. No different than a lot of criminals (except that he can fly an airplane)

[Arles]

He's a white guy, expressing his patriotism in his own unique way.
There is no terrorism in the Obama-led US. Just a bunch of people who may beefs with us but who aren't actual terrorists. That word is just too scary.

[DaddyTorgo]

There is no terrorism in the Obama-led US. Just a bunch of people who may beefs with us but who aren't actual terrorists. That word is just too scary.

:lol:

:confused:

Do you really believe that, or are you just trying to be intentionally asshattish?

[sterlingice]

With regards to the "manifesto": they're cogent, rational thoughts with a reasonably complex thought process behind them. I just don't agree with what he did with said thoughts. And I'm sure there's probably a story that will come out with them.

SI

[Tigercat]

I find it hard to sympathize with the words of a guy who implies that he is in money trouble, and yet owns a private plane. (And one of his admitted issues is his recent purchase of a piano.)

[panerd]

False flag to discredit the anti-government movement?

[DaddyTorgo]

I find it hard to sympathize with the words of a guy who implies that he is in money trouble, and yet owns a private plane. (And one of his admitted issues is his recent purchase of a piano.)

i thought he stole the plane?

[path12]

False flag to discredit the anti-government movement?

Wait. You think dude flew the plane into the building to smear the teabaggers?

This must be the new Godwin.

[Antmeister]

Surprising that the world doesn't revolve around the West Coast I see... :)

Well actually, the guy is a Cali transplant, just like me.

[Arles]

:lol:

:confused:

Do you really believe that, or are you just trying to be intentionally asshattish?
A guy made an act of terror by crashing a plane into a federal building. It is known that he did it intentionally. Someone from the white house just came out and said this was not an act of terrorism on CNN. Here's an online version:

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSWBT01364220100218?type=marketsNews

The White House said the crash of a small plane in the Texas state capital Austin on Thursday did not appear to be terrorism and that President Barack Obama had been briefed about the incident.

What could be possibly be more of an act of terrorism than this?

Add in what Napolitano said on an earlier issue:

SPIEGEL: Madame Secretary, in your first testimony to the US Congress as Homeland Security Secretary you never mentioned the word "terrorism." Does Islamist terrorism suddenly no longer pose a threat to your country?

NAPOLITANO: Of course it does. I presume there is always a threat from terrorism. In my speech, although I did not use the word "terrorism," I referred to "man-caused" disasters. That is perhaps only a nuance, but it demonstrates that we want to move away from the politics of fear toward a policy of being prepared for all risks that can occur.

And I just don't understand why this administration refuses to acknowledge acts of terrorism (regardless of the race of the terrorist).

[molson]

It just sounds like he was a really shitty businessman who tried to get cute with taxes.

[Tigercat]

i thought he stole the plane?

Last I heard (its been a couple hours since I've caught up on the story, so it may have changed) he owned a plane, explaining why he knew how to fly, and that plane was probably the one he crashed. Initially it looked like he might have stolen a plane different than the one he owned, but last I heard they were under the assumption it was his.

[molson]

I'm not sure what's sillier, Bush's overuse of the word "terrorism" or the Obama administraition's refusal to use it (except in noting that there was no terrorism when a guy crashes a plane into a federal building)

[Tigercat]

To be somewhat fair, I think there has always been a school of thought that the actions and the agenda of ONE isolated crazy person isn't terrorism. You could certainly call the unibomber a terrorist and not be wrong in the least, you could call any serial killer that. But more often than not terrorism is used when the movement behind an action can be traced beyond just one person. Given the nature of the rambling crazy in the man's note, I don't think that case can be made.

[Solecismic]

I'm guessing the White House misspoke. I can't see how it's not an act of terrorism, in that he used violence against innocent people to express his political viewpoint.

However, it's not a current threat to public safety in that there's apparently no group he belonged to that organized this act of terrorism.

[Bigsmooth]

Hard to disagree with his manifesto IMO. If he hadn't harmed others (not sure if there is a body count?) then I'd say he is a noble SOB.

This isn't just about being a bad business man or being cute with his taxes. It seems to be more about being overwhelmed and dissillusioned with the state of the "system". In a crazy way, he's trying to wake people up.

[lungs]

Cue both sides of the political spectrum trying to pin this guy on the other side. I've already seen anti-Christian Communist thrown around by the right. I'm sure the left is calling him an anti-government guy.

Reading his manifesto, I'd just say he is anti-everything.

[Antmeister]

Seriously, why are people constantly trying to score political points in a tragedy? It doesn't really matter what you call it since this is just some random act no one could have prevented regardless of the political viewpoint.

[Lathum]

And I just don't understand why this administration refuses to acknowledge acts of terrorism (regardless of the race of the terrorist).

Maybe it's like when you work in a restaurant and they have that sign that says " It has been X days since the last reported accident" except in the whitehouse it says "It has been X number of days since a terrorist attack on US soil" and there is a bonus when they hit a certain number.

[Young Drachma]

I think the word terrorism, as it relates to the U.S. is really focused on the acts of foreigners against our people/government or whatever. Whereas these acts of domestic terrorism are distinguished, simply because they conjure up different images and frankly, would be fought through different methods than the tactics you'd use to fight some terrorist from somewhere around the globe.

Doesn't make it right, but...I think that's the hesitance to call these acts terrorism. I'm finding the whole "maybe dude had a point" commentary of the folks on television to be a bit...ridiculous.

I do, however, think that we'll see more of these kinds of things as people become more and more disillusioned with the system as it is. Because as it stands right now, we're selling a lot of people a bill of goods and it's not until it hits them, that they start to realize how much of our society is built on a house of cards.

[path12]

Seriously, why are people constantly trying to score political points in a tragedy? It doesn't really matter what you call it since this is just some random act no one could have prevented regardless of the political viewpoint.

Feh. You and your "wisdom". Just whose side are you on, anyways?

[flere-imsaho]

:popcorn:

[Lathum]

Cue both sides of the political spectrum trying to pin this guy on the other side. I've already seen anti-Christian Communist thrown around by the right. I'm sure the left is calling him an anti-government guy.

Reading his manifesto, I'd just say he is anti-everything.

In the immortal words of Chris Rock

"whatever happened to crazy?"

[Bigsmooth]

I do, however, think that we'll see more of these kinds of things as people become more and more disillusioned with the system as it is. Because as it stands right now, we're selling a lot of people a bill of goods and it's not until it hits them, that they start to realize how much of our society is built on a house of cards.

That's what I was trying to spit out. Well said.

[miked]

A guy made an act of terror by crashing a plane into a federal building. It is known that he did it intentionally. Someone from the white house just came out and said this was not an act of terrorism on CNN. Here's an online version:

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSWBT01364220100218?type=marketsNews



What could be possibly be more of an act of terrorism than this?

And I just don't understand why this administration refuses to acknowledge acts of terrorism (regardless of the race of the terrorist).

As an aside, I wish you'd take the time you spend informing us that the White House doesn't consider this terrorism (and all the wonderful other Health Care insights) and redirect it to a singular post about your game. :)

I mean, can't everything be called terrorism in one way? It's probably being underused by this admin because it's overused by the previous one. I'm sure all the conservatives will lineup at their CPAC or whatever to rail on about this one guy being a major indicator that Obama is soft and use it to scare the rednecks to the ballot boxes. I'm sure the White House will use it to show how much everyone is fed up with Republicans in some manner. If Obama coming out and saying we are never safe from terrorists like this would make you feel better, perhaps you should tweet it to Mr. Gibbs.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I was chatting with Bill Harris about this situation. He works a couple hundred yards from this building. I'm sure he'll post about his experience on his blog in the coming days.
You and Bill are pretty tight, eh?

[rowech]

To be somewhat fair, I think there has always been a school of thought that the actions and the agenda of ONE isolated crazy person isn't terrorism. You could certainly call the unibomber a terrorist and not be wrong in the least, you could call any serial killer that. But more often than not terrorism is used when the movement behind an action can be traced beyond just one person. Given the nature of the rambling crazy in the man's note, I don't think that case can be made.

No...that's conspiracy. This is terrorism...plain and simple. If it happened in Iraq/Pakistan/Afghanistan it would most definitely be considered that.

[panerd]

Wait. You think dude flew the plane into the building to smear the teabaggers?

This must be the new Godwin.


I have no idea what Godwin means but maybe was broadly applying the term false flag to this. I don't think the government created some sort of Manchurian candidate and programmed him to do it to discredit the tea party movement.

I do however think that the government will use this as a warning tale of the craziness that comes with questioning their policies. Like many have said in this thread the actions are ridiculous but what caused the actions are views shared by many. I can easily see some sort of task force or crackdown in place even though there doesn't seem to be anything tangible to crack down on.

[TCY Junkie]

I'm guessing the White House misspoke. I can't see how it's not an act of terrorism, in that he used violence against innocent people to express his political viewpoint.

However, it's not a current threat to public safety in that there's apparently no group he belonged to that organized this act of terrorism.

It's my birthday, could you at least act like you're working on TCY 2?

[Pumpy Tudors]

It's my birthday, could you at least act like you're working on TCY 2?
I'm working on TCY Junkie 2 if that helps.

[Tigercat]

No...that's conspiracy. This is terrorism...plain and simple. If it happened in Iraq/Pakistan/Afghanistan it would most definitely be considered that.

I don't recall any proclaimed "terrorist" ever working completely on his/her own and working against/on behalf of both sides of international/domestic arguments.

There is textbook definition and then there is the practical use of a word. McVeigh and company at Ok City had a multi person movement to associate with them and were a multi person attack.

The practical use of terrorism in the media has almost always been associated with a conspiracy of thoughts or actions.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I have no idea what Godwin means but maybe was broadly applying the term false flag to this.

Godwin's Law is the one about ending any online conversation once there's a Hitler reference.

I've barely read the thread so I don't have any idea whether/how it applies here but figured I could at least clear that little bit up.

[path12]

I do however think that the government will use this as a warning tale of the craziness that comes with questioning their policies. Like many have said in this thread the actions are ridiculous but what caused the actions are views shared by many. I can easily see some sort of task force or crackdown in place even though there doesn't seem to be anything tangible to crack down on.

We just fundamentally disagree on where and why the crazies are being whipped up.

But I've made a promise to myself to stay out of political discussions over the intertubez and so I'll just leave it at that.

Besides, I agree with the thought that not every event needs to be used for politicizing.

[DanGarion]

I blame the VANOC.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Maybe it's like when you work in a restaurant and they have that sign that says " It has been X days since the last reported accident" except in the whitehouse it says "It has been X number of days since a terrorist attack on US soil" and there is a bonus when they hit a certain number.

Sort of like the meme about how no one dies on Disney property I guess.

[panerd]

Godwin's Law is the one about ending any online conversation once there's a Hitler reference.

I've barely read the thread so I don't have any idea whether/how it applies here but figured I could at least clear that little bit up.


I never heard of it. I implied that the government would immediately take advantage of this situation to heighten security (i.e. more government) and used the term false flag. Apparently path12 thought I was invoking the Reichstag fire or something. Don't think this one will go that far but I have noticed a lot of non-news worthy stories lately that seem to be getting air for some reason that are planting the ideas in my mind of a coming false flag...

Police report security breach at Olympics opening - 2010 Olympics - Yahoo! Sports (http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/news?slug=ap-biden-securitybreach&prov=ap&type=lgns)


(maybe I have become too big of a cynic?)

[DanGarion]

Surprising that the world doesn't revolve around the West Coast I see... :)

The world does revolve around the West Coast, we are just too laid back to point it out to the rest of you.

[Arles]

I think it would have been perfectly acceptable to say that this was an act of terrorism by an individual not associated with any known terrorist organization. It's not panicking the masses, but it's also not candy-coating the fact that this person flew a plane into a building to try and make a political point.

It's just difficult to deal with a situation or issue when you refuse to acknowledge it even exists.

[Neon_Chaos]

I don't recall any proclaimed "terrorist" ever working completely on his/her own and working against/on behalf of both sides of international/domestic arguments.

There is textbook definition and then there is the practical use of a word. McVeigh and company at Ok City had a multi person movement to associate with them and were a multi person attack.

The practical use of terrorism in the media has almost always been associated with a conspiracy of thoughts or actions.

Aye.

i.e.

Cobra is a ruthless terrorist organization determined to rule the world.

[panerd]

We just fundamentally disagree on where and why the crazies are being whipped up.

But I've made a promise to myself to stay out of political discussions over the intertubez and so I'll just leave it at that.

Besides, I agree with the thought that not every event needs to be used for politicizing.

I get where you are coming from. I don't much enjoy the politicial threads either anymore. I have an opinion and so do other people and I have found nobody really cares about the other side.

I will say to the politicizng this event though... The guy crashed into the IRS building due to government policies, pretty sure that makes it political.

[path12]

I will say to the politicizng this event though... The guy crashed into the IRS building due to government policies, pretty sure that makes it political.

To him, yeah. I don't feel the need to try and interpret much more than that. :)

[JPhillips]

I think it would have been perfectly acceptable to say that this was an act of terrorism by an individual not associated with any known terrorist organization. It's not panicking the masses, but it's also not candy-coating the fact that this person flew a plane into a building to try and make a political point.

It's just difficult to deal with a situation or issue when you refuse to acknowledge it even exists.

How would it make any difference whatsoever if Obama said "terrorism"? It's not like he never says it, contrary to right-wing blogs. Would this not have happened if he said terrorism more? Would we be safer tomorrow if he said terrorism today?

[RainMaker]

There needs to be a roundtable to discuss for what we use the word terrorism. I can see it going both ways. He had no regard for others, and seemed to have an ideological goal behind it. However, this didn't seem like something used to create fear among others and was a lone nut.

Are school shooters terrorists? That teacher who shot a bunch of people because she didn't get tenure the other day? Technically you could classify every drive-by shooting as an act of terrorism as it meets all the criteria. Seems the definition we use today only counts terrorism if it's done by a Muslim.

[gstelmack]

To be somewhat fair, I think there has always been a school of thought that the actions and the agenda of ONE isolated crazy person isn't terrorism. You could certainly call the unibomber a terrorist and not be wrong in the least, you could call any serial killer that. But more often than not terrorism is used when the movement behind an action can be traced beyond just one person. Given the nature of the rambling crazy in the man's note, I don't think that case can be made.

The definition of terrorism at one time was trying to cause governmental change by creating a state of fear among the populace that causes them to lose faith that the current government can protect them. Under that definition, this is not an act of terrorism, nor is nearly any attack on a government institution. The OKC bombing wasn't terrorism, nor was bombing the USS Cole, but crashing planes into the Twin Towers was, as are the suicide bombers in the Middle East.

I don't know what the current agreed-upon definition is, as that was from when I was most interested in this stuff back in the 80s. I have a vague recollection of flere and I discussing this awhile back in here, but I don't remember what conclusion was reached.

[Arles]

I think an attack made on civilians with the goal of forwarding a political message is an act of terrorism. In a drive by or school shooting (because of not getting tenure), you have individual acts with no real political motive often directed at people they blame for a specific situation in their life.

However, if someone wrote a letter saying that schools are indoctrinating our kids with evil ideas and then goes and shoots up a random school - then I think that most certainly is terrorism.

The only goal of killing innocent civilians as part of a political message is to cause terror in the masses. It doesn't matter if it's done in a government building in Texas or a church in Iraq.

[RainMaker]

Reading through his diatribe, he kind of reminds me of those anti-tax guys that float around (not that they fly buildings into people, but his beliefs). I'm not talking small government, but those that think income tax is illegal, the Amendment wasn't ratified properly, and so on. I worked with a guy like this. Talked non-stop about how he never paid taxes and about James Traficant. I was young but still kind of knew he was a kook. Would constantly try and recruit people into the office by telling them not to let them take too much out of the check because we didn't have to pay taxes.

Eventually the IRS came knocking on his door and he still stood strong. Went to local meetings with the same kind of people. Was certain he would beat the case and find that income tax was unconstitutional. I know they started garnishing his wages at one point and I left the company before I could find out more that happened to him.

In any event, there are people like that out there. Mostly harmless but get into this belief that the IRS is illegal and that everyone is a sucker for paying taxes. When he talked about meetings in the 80's, it might be something similar to that. He decided not to pay taxes and the IRS fucked him for it.

[DanGarion]

To quote Merriam Webster herself.
Main Entry: ter·ror·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈter-ər-ˌi-zəm\
Function: noun
Date: 1795
: the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion
— ter·ror·ist \-ər-ist\ adjective or noun
— ter·ror·is·tic \ˌter-ər-ˈis-tik\ adjective

[DanGarion]

According to the great and all knowing minds of the land of Wiki PediaTerrorism is the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion.[1] At present, there is no internationally agreed definition of terrorism.[2][3] Common definitions of terrorism refer only to those violent acts which are intended to create fear (terror), are perpetrated for an ideological goal (as opposed to a lone attack), and deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants (civilians).
Some definitions also include acts of unlawful violence and war. The history of terrorist organizations suggests that they do not select terrorism for its political effectiveness.[4] Individual terrorists tend to be motivated more by a desire for social solidarity with other members of their organization than by political platforms or strategic objectives, which are often murky and undefined.[4]
The word "terrorism" is politically and emotionally charged,[5] and this greatly compounds the difficulty of providing a precise definition. Studies have found over 100 definitions of “terrorism”.[6][7] The concept of terrorism may itself be controversial as it is often used by state authorities to delegitimize political or other opponents,[8] and potentially legitimize the state's own use of armed force against opponents (such use of force may itself be described as "terror" by opponents of the state.)[8][9]. A less politically and emotionally charged, and more easily definable, term is violent non-state actor[10] (though the semantic scope of this term includes not only "terrorists," while excluding some individuals or groups who have previously been described as "terrorists").[citation needed]
Terrorism has been practiced by a broad array of political organizations for furthering their objectives. It has been practiced by both right-wing and left-wing political parties, nationalistic groups, religious groups, revolutionaries, and ruling governments.[11] One form is the use of violence against noncombatants for the purpose of gaining publicity for a group, cause, or individual.[12]

[Arles]

If he didn't want to cause terror in the masses, why fly the plane into the building?

He didn't care who he killed, he just wanted the US to know his political message and hoped a body count (ie, terror) would forward that notion.

[RainMaker]

I think an attack made on civilians with the goal of forwarding a political message is an act of terrorism. In a drive by or school shooting (because of not getting tenure), you have individual acts with no real political motive often directed at people they blame for a specific situation in their life.

However, if someone wrote a letter saying that schools are indoctrinating our kids with evil ideas and then goes and shoots up a random school - then I think that most certainly is terrorism.

The only goal of killing innocent civilians as part of a political message is to cause terror in the masses. It doesn't matter if it's done in a government building in Texas or a church in Iraq.
I can go with that but it still seems somewhat murky. I mean the KKK would technically not fall into terrorism back in the day when they'd lynch someone or burn a cross on their lawn. Yet they are widely seen as using terroristic methods throughout their time.

And the reason I use the KKK is because I think there is a similarity in that and gang shootings. Often times drive-bys are not about getting revenge on an individual, but about instilling fear in a neighborhood and establishing presence on a particular turf. We don't want Crips on our block can be seen the same way as we don't want blacks on our block.

I just think the term is too loosely defined. When a guy blows up an abortion clinic, he is somewhat sending a political message, but is that any different than one sent by the KKK, a gang, or a school shooter who is speaking out against the "wrongs in society" (in his view).

[digamma]

Here's the difference. Terrorism usually carries some future threat of harm. I'm not really concerned that some nut job in the inland empire is going to get ticked off at the IRS or the SEC and fly a single engine Cessna into my office building. I am, however, a little nervous that a flight from Northern Ireland may be bombed or that an Islamist group may send a suicide bomber into a Tel Aviv shopping mall.

[Tigercat]

It comes down to organized terrorism vs unorganized terrorism. If it is unorganized terrorism, it isn't worth the effort of worrying about it as terrorism, because a lone crazy person with an agenda of terror is no different than a lone crazy person without such an agenda. You can't do much about crazy. That is why some might be reluctant to call the acts of a lone crazy man without a connection to a concrete philosophical movement terrorism. Now if an act is connected to a bigger movement or agenda, you might need to consider it in bigger picture context. So that is when you break out the big umbrella word of terrorism.

[Glengoyne]

Tea Partier?

:D

Nice

[lungs]

Has anybody looked into this guy's connection with any Moslem terrorist groups?

[cartman]

I don't remember people clamoring for the guy that flew the Cessna into the White House to be called a terrorist.

[cartman]

I'll give the guy credit, he was a pretty good pilot. The building is close to a big overhead freeway interchange, near a bunch of 100 foot tall light poles, and behind a fifteen foot retaining wall on the edge of the highway. When I drove by it on the way home and took a look, he had to thread the plane through and around a lot of stuff. He was definitely motivated.

[Dodgerchick]

Well, after finding out that the house Stack burned down was less than a mile from where we live, I grabbed my camera and took pictures. I'm saddened at what I saw.

First look as I arrived to the scene

http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs191.snc3/19840_314551613359_831928359_3379108_7361296_n.jpg

Woman walking her dog as she gets approached by reporters

http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs191.snc3/19840_314551623359_831928359_3379109_3451437_n.jpg

Camera crews

http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs171.snc3/19840_314551633359_831928359_3379110_5244048_n.jpg

Firetruck in front of the house

http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs171.snc3/19840_314551643359_831928359_3379111_3643000_n.jpg

Here you can see a bit of the back of the house (where the real damage took place)
http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs171.snc3/19840_314551653359_831928359_3379112_4281255_n.jpg

Reporters interview a neighbor
http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs171.snc3/19840_314551658359_831928359_3379113_567048_n.jpg

Fireman hoses down what's left of the fire
http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs191.snc3/19840_314551673359_831928359_3379115_723797_n.jpg

The front
http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs191.snc3/19840_314551678359_831928359_3379116_512204_n.jpg

Onlooker takes a picture
http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs191.snc3/19840_314551693359_831928359_3379117_498322_n.jpg

Fireman on the rooftop hoses down another angle
http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs171.snc3/19840_314551703359_831928359_3379119_1719780_n.jpg

Last look before I leave
http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs191.snc3/19840_314551718359_831928359_3379120_6322679_n.jpg

Onlooker takes a look at the damage as the house is being hosed down
http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs191.snc3/19840_314551723359_831928359_3379121_8084320_n.jpg

House is less than a block away from an elementary school
http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs191.snc3/19840_314551733359_831928359_3379122_1467927_n.jpg

Media Vans
http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs171.snc3/19840_314551743359_831928359_3379124_4956851_n.jpg

Same fireman from a different angle
http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs171.snc3/19840_314551758359_831928359_3379125_3911047_n.jpg

Fireman hoses down the house
http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs171.snc3/19840_314551763359_831928359_3379126_7176445_n.jpg

Back of the house is pretty much destroyed
http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs171.snc3/19840_314551773359_831928359_3379127_2674699_n.jpg

A closer look, my heart sank when I saw this
http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs191.snc3/19840_314551783359_831928359_3379128_8131610_n.jpg

And the last picture. After this picture I looked and I mean really looked at the house. I put my head down, said a prayer for the wife and child left behind as well as the hundreds that were affected by one person's malicious act and cried. Yeah, I cried. I noticed a police officer getting out of her car and started approaching me. When she saw me crying, she turned around and headed back to her car. I'll never understand how or why some people have so much hatred in their heart.

http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs191.snc3/19840_314551798359_831928359_3379130_1593858_n.jpg

[Young Drachma]

FOFC News Bureau is all over this one, man.

Thanks for the pics, DC. Seriously.

[Antmeister]

Well the creepy thing is that he burned his house which is less than half a mile from where I live and he crashed a plane less than half a mile from where I work. Sad and disturbing to know how many lives he just turned upside down. In fact reports say that his wife and daughter left the house to stay at a hotel because he was going on a tirade yesterday. They returned in the morning to see their house burned down and would soon learn of the crash. Geez.

Need to edit this. It was his wife and step-daughter. Apparently this was his second marriage. Other than that, the rest seems to still hold up.

[MJ4H]

Personally, I'm not reading jack shit from this guy.

[DanGarion]

Well, after finding out that the house Stack burned down was less than a mile from where we live, I grabbed my camera and took pictures.

You guys must live right near Bill Harris, do you see a son and father unicycling in your neighborhood?

[cartman]

This reports seems to indicate that the wife and step-daughter were in the house and were saved by firefighters. This also reports that the Georgetown airport (general aviation only) is on lockdown as they suspect that he rigged a bomb to the car he left at the airport.

http://www.wfaa.com/home/Plane-crashes-into-Northwest-Austin-building--84705312.html

[GrantDawg]

There is definitely going to be more to this story. The blog left behind wasn't exactly the ravings of an insane man (though he obviously was by his actions), and it makes me think he was hiding something by burning down the house before he left. Why would you burn your family's home when you are already depriving them of yourself? There is going to be something else going on with this guy.

[cartman]

There is definitely going to be more to this story. The blog left behind wasn't exactly the ravings of an insane man (though he obviously was by his actions), and it makes me think he was hiding something by burning down the house before he left. Why would you burn your family's home when you are already depriving them of yourself? There is going to be something else going on with this guy.

well, his two most valuable possessions that could be seized by the IRS were probably the house and plane.

[molson]

I wonder what role his wife and daughter had in the I.R.S's conspiracy to ruin him.

[GrantDawg]

This reports seems to indicate that the wife and step-daughter were in the house and were saved by firefighters. This also reports that the Georgetown airport (general aviation only) is on lockdown as they suspect that he rigged a bomb to the car he left at the airport.

http://www.wfaa.com/home/Plane-crashes-into-Northwest-Austin-building--84705312.html


You posted this as I posted. So he was trying to take them out with him? That makes a little more crazy sense.

[Karlifornia]

I wanna see this guy's stupid face, just so I can look at it and feel superior.

[cartman]

I wanna see this guy's stupid face, just so I can look at it and feel superior.

according to the Austin American-Statesman:

http://www.statesman.com/multimedia/dynamic/00192/Joe-Stack_192907m.jpg

[Karlifornia]

according to the Austin American-Statesman:

http://www.statesman.com/multimedia/dynamic/00192/Joe-Stack_192907m.jpg

Nice hat, jackass.

[Logan]

according to the Austin American-Statesman:

http://www.statesman.com/multimedia/dynamic/00192/Joe-Stack_192907m.jpg

Loved you in Raiders, Colonel.

[Karlifornia]

So, did anyone else die, or was it just him?

[cartman]

So, did anyone else die, or was it just him?

Nothing confirmed yet. Supposedly there is still one person unaccounted for and several people in area hospitals, and one person with severe burns was sent to the military hospital in San Antonio.

[cartman]

So, did anyone else die, or was it just him?

They have now announced they've pulled two bodies from the building, but haven't identified who they are.

[cartman]

triple dola,

This didn't take long. Someone came up with a Cliff notes version of the manifesto.

Rimbosity (http://rimbosity.com/writings/joe-stack-translated.html)

[MJ4H]

Well at least he is getting the audience he craved.

[sterlingice]

triple dola,

This didn't take long. Someone came up with a Cliff notes version of the manifesto.

Rimbosity (http://rimbosity.com/writings/joe-stack-translated.html)

That was pretty good :D

SI

[molson]

Wesley Snipes (who not only didn't pay taxes, but fraudlently claimed more than $11 million in tax refunds) can relate:

WASHINGTON – - Actor Wesley Snipes, who has tax problems of his own, had a blunt reaction to news about a software engineer who crashed his plane into an office building with nearly 200 IRS employees inside.

In an interview with the Associated Press, Snipes asked, "What's new?"

Authorities say A. Joseph Stack, who was furious with the Internal Revenue Service, crashed his plane into an Austin, Texas, building on Thursday.

Snipes said tax problems have been an issue in the U.S. from the very beginning.

As the actor put it: "I think it was an issue even for the early colonists and the British, so what's new?"

Snipes, 47, was convicted in 2008 of not paying taxes for three years. He was sentenced to three years in prison. He is appealing.

[Noop]

I read his screed and I agree with most of what he said.

I have for a while thought that Americans are not citizens but consumers and customers. We are sold bullshit every single day and we gladly buy it because someone told us too. I think people like Joe Stack will start becoming the normal because people are generally fed up with the bullshit.

[MJ4H]

good ole joe stack!

[molson]

I love how a criminal/deadbeat/general life failure can get all pissed off about sucking at life so much, that he can write a manifesto, throw in a couple of brainless/generic anti-government/corporation stuff and suddenly be admired by many in America (even after trying to kill a bunch of people - which he also, not surprisingly, failed at)

USA! USA!

Edit: I'm as anti-government as anyone on this board, but that really isn't what this guy is about. If he was a better tax criminal, he'd have no problem with the government, or corporations. He sucked at, so they're the villains.

[MJ4H]

I love how a criminal/deadbeat/general life failure can get all pissed off about sucking at life so much, that he can write a manifesto, throw in a couple of brainless/generic anti-government/corporation stuff and suddenly be admired by many in America (even after trying to kill a bunch of people - which he also, not surprisingly, failed at)

USA! USA!



+1 I'm a little put-off by all this.

[jeff061]

This guy clearly had more issues going on in his life other than taxes. Whether these are mental or actual tangible problems, who knows. But if it wasn't taxes he would still have offed himself and find something else other than himself to blame.

Wanting to be viewed as a martyr and remembered was likely the main motivation behind posting his little article. And it worked. I'm kind of surprised actually. I read his rambling before I read people's opinions on it. It just looked like attention whoring too me.

Newsflash, no one likes paying taxes. If you spend a decade looking for loopholes you should be prepared to deal with any consequences.

[molson]

It's not unlike a serial-killing child molester blaming "society" for his actions.

[Noop]

Wow. Hell of a connection there chief.

[molson]

Wow. Hell of a connection there chief.

You don't see the connection because you apparently view his manifesto as real groundbreaking, intelligent stuff.

But it's not - it's garbage. Any 3rd-grader could have written it. These are not creative ideas, these are not ideas worthy of praise and admiration. There's 6 billion bloggers out there you can read who make similar points, but much more coherently. (and as a bonus, they're not even tax-cheating murderers).

[cartman]

I mean, the taxes were such an overwhelming burden on him he was able to buy a plane.

[Noop]

You don't see the connection because you apparently view his manifesto as real groundbreaking, intelligent stuff.

But it's not - it's garbage. Any 3rd-grader could have written it.

Negative. However if you want to continue making your "connections" feel free.

Also no 3rd grader would have written that so try again buddy.

[sterlingice]

I love how a criminal/deadbeat/general life failure can get all pissed off about sucking at life so much, that he can write a manifesto, throw in a couple of brainless/generic anti-government/corporation stuff and suddenly be admired by many in America (even after trying to kill a bunch of people - which he also, not surprisingly, failed at)

USA! USA!

Edit: I'm as anti-government as anyone on this board, but that really isn't what this guy is about. If he was a better tax criminal, he'd have no problem with the government, or corporations. He sucked at, so they're the villains.

Really? This sounds like a lot more of intellectual climate of "either yer wit' us or yer agin' us". I don't see anyone saying "yeah, he was right to fly his plane into a building" or "damn the man, I hope more people fly planes into buildings". It doesn't make him a hero or not a tax criminal or attempted murderer.

But that doesn't mean we can't look at his statements and agree with what he said. Yes, the only reason we saw this nutjob's "manifesto" is because of what he did. But it's a pretty easy intellectual pivot to look at what was said and divorce it from an obviously disturbed guy.

You know what- I don't think it's a bad thing if we try to look at Hitler's motivations or Osama Bin Laden's or anyone else's. It's still just a thought exercise and maybe if we understand why someone does something, we can prevent a future tragedy. Or maybe we could just try to understand how a mentally unbalanced person turns into a monster.

Yes, there's an ethical dilemma because you are "giving him what he wants" but I'm pretty sure someone in Podunkton, Kansas or Richmond, Virginia or whatever, examining his screed on a message board wasn't exactly the press this guy envisioned.

But to just sit there and slam everyone for the possibility of examining it? It sounds more like the feigned jingoism of a few years ago that was intellectually lazy at best and 1984-level intellectually dangerous and damning at worst. We're talking about the points, the source be damned.

Don't like it? There's gotta be a celebrity or athlete to go fill your time talking about? I'm sure the world could use another 5 minutes discussing Tiger Woods' infidelity.

SI

[illinifan999]

I mean, the taxes were such an overwhelming burden on him he was able to buy a plane.

:lol::lol::lol:

[molson]

Negative. However if you want to continue making your "connections" feel free.

Also no 3rd grader would have written that so try again buddy.

I'm not sure what connection you're talking about.

If it's a connection between my post and your post, I wasn't responding to you directly, but this sentiment of admiration for this guy throughout this thread and elsewhere.

If it's my child molester comment - I think my comment was right on. I've worked with a lot of criminals and the common thread is that they believe someone else is to blame for their actions. Sometimes it's "government", sometimes it's "corporations", sometimes it's "society", a lot of times its the victim - but it's always someone else's fault. When it's violent criminals, we see this, but when it's white collar criminals - it's a little tougher to identify, because they share their "villains" with a lot of regular people.

This guy is just a criminal blaming someone else, and because it's the I.R.S he blames instead of his wife that he beats the shit out of - people admire him.

[Noop]

Molson, you'd make for a hell of a boxer with that reach pal.

[molson]

Really? This sounds like a lot more of intellectual climate of "either yer wit' us or yer agin' us". I don't see anyone saying "yeah, he was right to fly his plane into a building" or "damn the man, I hope more people fly planes into buildings". It doesn't make him a hero or not a tax criminal or attempted murderer.

But that doesn't mean we can't look at his statements and agree with what he said. Yes, the only reason we saw this nutjob's "manifesto" is because of what he did. But it's a pretty easy intellectual pivot to look at what was said and divorce it from an obviously disturbed guy.

You know what- I don't think it's a bad thing if we try to look at Hitler's motivations or Osama Bin Laden's or anyone else's. It's still just a thought exercise and maybe if we understand why someone does something, we can prevent a future tragedy. Or maybe we could just try to understand how a mentally unbalanced person turns into a monster.

Yes, there's an ethical dilemma because you are "giving him what he wants" but I'm pretty sure someone in Podunkton, Kansas or Richmond, Virginia or whatever, examining his screed on a message board wasn't exactly the press this guy envisioned.

But to just sit there and slam everyone for the possibility of examining it? It sounds more like the feigned jingoism of a few years ago that was intellectually lazy at best and 1984-level intellectually dangerous and damning at worst. We're talking about the points, the source be damned.

Don't like it? There's gotta be a celebrity or athlete to go fill your time talking about? I'm sure the world could use another 5 minutes discussing Tiger Woods' infidelity.

SI

If someone wants to rant against taxes, the government, or corporations, that's no problem. There's a whole internet, and a slew of cable news networks to support them and agree with them.

Why is this guy's voice so special? I can see studying Hitler and Osama, but those guys were very historically significant. This is a jerkoff with a plane.

People can read whatever they want. I guess I just get annoyed when people read this guy's ranting and think, "hey, he's right! the government IS evil!" as if this is coming from some kind of patriot who is the first person to ever think of these things.

If I shoot up a mall tomorrow but leave a note saying that I did it because I think gays should be allowed to marry - do I get to be admired? Will people read the note and exclaim how right I was? No, I would (or at least should) be discounted as a lunatic.

Edit: It's also kind of puzzling that so many people I thought were "liberal" are praising the FoxNews-esqe rantings of this guy. If Bill O'Reilly or Glenn Beck crashed a plane into something, would they suddenly think they were right also?

[panerd]

I love how a criminal/deadbeat/general life failure can get all pissed off about sucking at life so much, that he can write a manifesto, throw in a couple of brainless/generic anti-government/corporation stuff and suddenly be admired by many in America (even after trying to kill a bunch of people - which he also, not surprisingly, failed at)

USA! USA!

Edit: I'm as anti-government as anyone on this board, but that really isn't what this guy is about. If he was a better tax criminal, he'd have no problem with the government, or corporations. He sucked at, so they're the villains.

You have the second highest amount of posts in this thread. What is your point exactly? (as you continue to bump this thread to the top)

[jeff061]

Really? This sounds like a lot more of intellectual climate of "either yer wit' us or yer agin' us". I don't see anyone saying "yeah, he was right to fly his plane into a building" or "damn the man, I hope more people fly planes into buildings". It doesn't make him a hero or not a tax criminal or attempted murderer.
SI

Except the entire essay can be summed up as "Wah, I don't like taxes and no matter how hard I try I need to pay them". With self importance/pity and likely massive amounts of hyperbole making up the entire rest.

So given how devoid his article is of any new or interesting intellectual thought, no, I don't want his name to be attributed to anything but the attempted murder of dozens of people.

[molson]

You have the second highest amount of posts in this thread. What is your point exactly? (as you continue to bump this thread to the top)

I just read one too many comments and posts expressing admiration for the "message" and felt like jumping in. I think my point is clear.

[sterlingice]

If someone wants to rant against taxes, the government, or corporations, that's no problem. There's a whole internet, and a slew of cable news networks to support them and agree with them.

Why is this guy's voice so special? I can see studying Hitler and Osama, but those guys were very historically significant. This is a jerkoff with a plane.

People can read whatever they want. I guess I just get annoyed when people read this guy's ranting and think, "hey, he's right! the government IS evil!" as if this is coming from some kind of patriot who is the first person to ever think of these things.

If I shoot up a mall tomorrow but leave a note saying that I did it because I think gays should be allowed to marry - do I get to be admired? Will people read the note and exclaim how right I was? No, I would (or at least should) be discounted as a lunatic.

Edit: It's also kind of puzzling that so many people I thought were "liberal" are praising the FoxNews-esqe rantings of this guy. If Bill O'Reilly or Glenn Beck crashed a plane into something, would they suddenly think they were right also?

But that was the big point of my post that you seem to have missed. No one is championing this guy as a hero or special or anything like that. I don't think I've seen it anywhere in this thread. Just because the guy was a nut doesn't mean we can't talk about his points as if they had just been written by anyone. And it sure as hell doesn't mean mean we admire this guy.

SI

[panerd]

I just read one too many comments and posts expressing admiration for the "message" and felt like jumping in. I think my point is clear.

But this thread was dead and you revived it with your Wesley Snipes post. It is no big secret that a post at the top of the page gets more views and replies than something down lower. The thread would have possibly died without the Snipes post.

[molson]

But that was the big point of my post that you seem to have missed. No one is championing this guy as a hero or special or anything like that. I don't think I've seen it anywhere in this thread. Just because the guy was a nut doesn't mean we can't talk about his points as if they had just been written by anyone. And it sure as hell doesn't mean mean we admire this guy.

SI

I understand that, I know that nobody here is saying that it was good he crashed into a building.

I just think it's dopey to read that manifesto and express affirmation and agreement of it considering the circumstances. I don't understand the, "ya, he shouldn't have crashed the plane into a building but wow was he right!" kind of commentary, but I'll stop interrupting if that's what people want to do.

[molson]

But this thread was dead and you revived it with your Wesley Snipes post. It is no big secret that a post at the top of the page gets more views and replies than something down lower. The thread would have possibly died without the Snipes post.

I'm not saying the story should go away, someone crashing a plane into a building is a pretty big deal. Obviously there's an angle of it that I was interested in talking about, and points that I was responding to. I'm not saying we should forget this ever happened.

[Eaglesfan27]

I love how a criminal/deadbeat/general life failure can get all pissed off about sucking at life so much, that he can write a manifesto, throw in a couple of brainless/generic anti-government/corporation stuff and suddenly be admired by many in America (even after trying to kill a bunch of people - which he also, not surprisingly, failed at)

USA! USA!

Edit: I'm as anti-government as anyone on this board, but that really isn't what this guy is about. If he was a better tax criminal, he'd have no problem with the government, or corporations. He sucked at, so they're the villains.

This guy clearly had more issues going on in his life other than taxes. Whether these are mental or actual tangible problems, who knows. But if it wasn't taxes he would still have offed himself and find something else other than himself to blame.

Wanting to be viewed as a martyr and remembered was likely the main motivation behind posting his little article. And it worked. I'm kind of surprised actually. I read his rambling before I read people's opinions on it. It just looked like attention whoring too me.

Newsflash, no one likes paying taxes. If you spend a decade looking for loopholes you should be prepared to deal with any consequences.

Agreed with both points. I find it sickening to hear some people who support this guy's views. I suspect he suffered from some mental illness and while I find his death tragic because it probably could have been prevented with treatment, my sympathy for him went out the window when he tried to and killed innocent people.

[sterlingice]

I understand that, I know that nobody here is saying that it was good he crashed into a building.

I just think it's dopey to read that manifesto and express affirmation and agreement of it considering the circumstances. I don't understand the, "ya, he shouldn't have crashed the plane into a building but wow was he right!" kind of commentary, but I'll stop interrupting if that's what people want to do.

I'll take that bet for the reasons panerd has pointed out.

SI

[Eaglesfan27]

Dola -

I'm not saying it is happening here on this board, but I have read some people on other boards admiring this guy for "standing up for his beliefs" and "making a statement." That is what I was mostly responding to with my 2nd sentence.

[molson]

I'll take that bet for the reasons panerd has pointed out.

SI

If you and panerd (and noop) want to have a chat here about how awesome and smart this guy's points were, I'll gladly back out of the thread.

[sterlingice]

If you and panerd (and noop) want to have a chat here about how awesome and smart this guy's points were, I'll gladly back out of the thread.

Well, 5 posts (6 counting this one) since you said you'd be leaving and 2 are yours.

If no more news comes out, this thread had already died. But clearly you think you're scoring some sort of cheap social or political points by continuing to bring it up.

SI

[panerd]

If you and panerd (and noop) want to have a chat here about how awesome and smart this guy's points were, I'll gladly back out of the thread.

I never said I supported this guy or his writings. I do think this will help to put more Draconian big government security in place to make sure someone else doesn't crash their private plane and kill one person. (which of course simple logic will explain there is no way to stop)

[Noop]

If you and panerd (and noop) want to have a chat here about how awesome and smart this guy's points were, I'll gladly back out of the thread.

You're a fucking idiot, who the hell said he was awesome or smart? I agreed with some of what he said; no where did I say he was awesome or smart. You have posted over 10 times in this thread what exactly is your point other then make some stupid comments.

Now hold your breath until infinity.

[miked]

I never said I supported this guy or his writings. I do think this will help to put more Draconian big government security in place to make sure someone else doesn't crash their private plane and kill one person. (which of course simple logic will explain there is no way to stop)

This is sort of why I think the administration was not labeling this as terrorism. Aside from the fact he wasn't really pushing an agenda or part of a group, but that this sort of shit can't be stopped. If this is labeled terrorism, what about the whacked out homophobe who runs into a gay district and starts shooting people when DADT is repealed. I mean, sure it's all terrorism, but not really the kind that can be stopped. And if this is the sort of shit people consider terrorism that the government can stop, the administration is going to screw themselves by labeling it as such.

[molson]

Well, 5 posts (6 counting this one) since you said you'd be leaving and 2 are yours.

If no more news comes out, this thread had already died. But clearly you think you're scoring some sort of cheap social or political points by continuing to bring it up.

SI

I'm not saying the thread should die, that's your strawman.

And I said I won't get in the way of you talking about how brilliant you think this guy's rambling is. If you and panerd aren't going to do that - what's YOUR point here exactly? You're both mocking my participation in the thread but what exactly is your point - that people SHOULD profess admiration for this guy's message, but that you personally don't?

[molson]

You're a fucking idiot, who the hell said he was awesome or smart? I agreed with some of what he said; no where did I say he was awesome or smart. You have posted over 10 times in this thread what exactly is your point other then make some stupid comments.

Now hold your breath until infinity.

Why do you always elevate things to the "fucking idot" level? What's the deal with your temper? Are you like this in real life?

You said:

"I think people like Joe Stack will start becoming the normal because people are generally fed up with the bullshit."

If that's not an affirming statement of this guy I don't know what is.

[Noop]

Why do you always elevate things to the "fucking idot" level? What's the deal with your temper? Are you like this in real life?

No temper. You're being arrogant with nothing to be arrogant about.


You said:

"I think people like Joe Stack will start becoming the normal because people are generally fed up with the bullshit."

If that's not an affirming statement of this guy I don't know what is.

How exactly is this possible? There are a lot of people disillusioned with the system and Joe may have been the first to just snap. I have stated already that I don't agree with his actions nor do I find his screed groundbreaking. I merely mentioned that I agreed with some of what he wrote period.

[molson]

How exactly is this possible? There are a lot of people disillusioned with the system and Joe may have been the first to just snap. I have stated already that I don't agree with his actions nor do I find his screed groundbreaking. I merely mentioned that I agreed with some of what he wrote period.

What exactly do you think is going to become the "normal" - people fed up with the government acting violently against it? OK, that's a fair and interesting point. It sounded like you were endorsing that when you said it's going to happen because people are "fed up with the bullshit", which made it sound like you think this guy has a great point, and that you can see others acting out violently (and you support that to some degree). Which again, would be an interesting comment. If I read it wrong, fine, I apologize.

[Noop]

What exactly do you think is going to become the "normal" - people fed up with the government acting violently against it? OK, that's a fair and interesting point. It sounded like you were endorsing that when you said it's going to happen because people are "fed up with the bullshit", which made it sound like you're going to join in. Which again, would be an interesting comment. If I read it wrong, fine, I apologize.

You interpreted it wrong as that statement was merely an observation of people's tendency to copy cat.

[Greyroofoo]

I love the more slanted politicals forums on this guy.

A lot of left wing sites are calling this guy a crazy teabagger because he opposed taxes.

The right wing sites are calling him a lunatic liberal because he railed against Bush.

[lungs]

The right wing sites are calling him a lunatic liberal because he railed against Bush.

His rants against Christianity clearly make him a liberal.

[BYU 14]

Well, since he attacks both sides he must be a libertarian, or maybe just batshit crazy....

[Greyroofoo]

Well, since he attacks both sides he must be a libertarian, or maybe just batshit crazy....

...but you repeat yourself :p

[JonInMiddleGA]

...but you repeat yourself :p

He shoots ... he scores !!!

:D

[BYU 14]

...but you repeat yourself :p

Well played :)

[RainMaker]

How exactly is this possible? There are a lot of people disillusioned with the system and Joe may have been the first to just snap. I have stated already that I don't agree with his actions nor do I find his screed groundbreaking. I merely mentioned that I agreed with some of what he wrote period.
Reading the post again, I can see why Molson would say something. Maybe he misinterpreted your post, but you left a lot open to interpretation. The thread was about the terrorist attack on the IRS building. You basically said "I can understand his point of view" and this will become the norm in society.

Now switch scenarios around. Use Timothy McVeigh or Osama Bin Laden instead of Joe Stack. There are a lot of poeple who have similar beliefs whether it be that government is infringing on our lives or that the U.S. should stay out of the Middle East. But after the attacks, if you came out and said "I agree with their views" without saying that the guy is clearly a demented individual with no regard for others, it can be perceived as agreeing with the actions they took, not just what their views were.

[SportsDino]

In my opinion this guy is a terrorist, and a whack job. I think its pretty obvious the government is hosing us, so its easy to write an anti-government stance and get popular agreement of some kind. Hell, I've written on some of the points this bozo made (although I hope I do a better job of it)... doesn't mean I have to agree with his particular point of view.

In this case, the guy disgusts me because he seems more interested in taking advantage of the system and being caught, than any sort of ideological of ethical objection to the system. He obviously did well enough to buy a plane and a house, or at least acquire the credit to get that junk, so he is hardly an example of someone entirely helpless to do for themself.

In my opinion, if you think the system is screwed, you work to change it, don't just throw yourself at a building and cause devastation and leave other people to supposedly wise up and do the work. Not to message acts of terrorism often degrade whatever message you are promoting, if not rallying the populace to the other side. Only oppression can make truly successful use of fear tactics.

So in short, the guy is another self-entitled consumerist sheep with a violent streak, who managed to string together some words that vaguely resemble real problems with our society... and he died in an act of stupidity as terrible and selfish as his stupid life.