Labor and employment question

[Flasch186]

Here's the scene

I am a 100% commission Sales associate for a builder and I am an employee.

The new regime is "Requiring" that we take a Realtor to breakfast at least once per week up to $25 to be reimbursed at the end of the month. However, they never follow through on putting the procedure in place to get reimbursed.

Now you couple that with the fact that Sales meetings, once per week, are to be held in an individual's sales office on a rotation. When its your turn, you are "required" to provide breakfast for everyone (20+). This has been stated that it will NOT be reimbursed.

Is this allowed? Im in Florida if that matters?

[JonInMiddleGA]

I've done way more than my usual searching & damned if I can find anything Florida specific. I found reference to California Labor Code (http://reddingbusinessandemploymentlawblog.com/?p=110)that covers this kind of thing which leads me to believe that protections & regulations are at the state level but I can't even find the existence online of a normal state Department of Labor in Florida much less any rules about this kind of thing.

Did the state do away with DOL in favor of breaking it up into smaller offices like Workforce Innovation?

[Flasch186]

I found that CA court case too but before I arm myself I'll keep looking to see if FL is different.

[Sun Tzu]

That's crazy...I've never heard of an employer having such ridiculous requirements that involve employee out of pocket expenses that aren't reimbursed. I work on about 85% commission, and if my employer required me to do all of these things, I'd tell them to stick it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

If you can figure out what department at the state level handles this stuff (and I don't think I've ever had this much trouble even finding the right agency) then I'd just call 'em and refer to the CA law. If you get someone who knows what they're doing instead of a glorified temp worker then they ought to be able to point you toward the right information one way or another.

On the surface it sounds illegal as all get out but it's tough to take much for granted anymore, things that sound completely f'ed up are often legal while things that seem totally benign are illegal.

[Flasch186]

Floridajobs.org

She said that outside of a call to my dept of license, if im not hourly, they can ask me to do it BUT I dont have to agree to do it. Then the employer, due to Florida being an "At will employment" state, could terminate me for refusing to participate. She referred me to the state licensing board for Real Estate agents but as an employee she said that they COULD ask me to do this but that I wouldnt necesarily have to and then they could fire me for it (or for anything for that matter).

[Rizon]

On the surface it sounds illegal as all get out

+1

[RedKingGold]

Florida has no Wage & Hour state agency and, it appears, no seperate Wage & Hour code.

I might start looking at the FLSA at this point. I'm wondering if there's a potential claim there.

Also, I would not guarantee your status as an employee...at least under the FLSA.

[RedKingGold]

Flasch, it might be worth to call the Jacksonville (I'm assuming you're in Jacksonville, not sure) branch office.

Try talking to someone there, they might be able to help you:

U.S. Department of Labor
ESA Wage & Hour Division
Jacksonville District Office
3728 Phillips Highway
Suite 219
Jacksonville, FL 32207-6880
Phone: (904) 232-2489
Fax: (904) 232-3114

[digamma]

Why do you keep putting "required" in quotes?

[Flasch186]

So what does that mean?

If theyre blending the IC status and employee status and picking the best parts from each for them?

[Flasch186]

Why do you keep putting "required" in quotes?

I guess I couldve bolded it. I was trying to emphasize their verbiage when laying this policy out since I think that that part is critical to the discussion.

[Flasch186]

Flasch, it might be worth to call the Jacksonville (I'm assuming you're in Jacksonville, not sure) branch office.

Try talking to someone there, they might be able to help you:

U.S. Department of Labor
ESA Wage & Hour Division
Jacksonville District Office
3728 Phillips Highway
Suite 219
Jacksonville, FL 32207-6880
Phone: (904) 232-2489
Fax: (904) 232-3114

disconnected :)

[Subby]

Just eat triple your share when someone else springs for the group breakfast and you'll come out way ahead.

[SportsDino]

These 'businesses' come up with the stupidest practices I ever heard of.

Have your damn employees eat before work or go without. What the hell is bullshit about enforced buying meals for people?!

Its no wonder this economy is in shambles, management worrying about bullshit instead of making money. If meals are somehow part of your business the company should handle it (expense card with basic oversight/approval).

[digamma]

I guess I couldve bolded it. I was trying to emphasize their verbiage when laying this policy out since I think that that part is critical to the discussion.

Gotcha. I was reading it as perhaps not being actually "required" but more loosely expected.

[RedKingGold]

These 'businesses' come up with the stupidest practices I ever heard of.

Have your damn employees eat before work or go without. What the hell is bullshit about enforced buying meals for people?!

Its no wonder this economy is in shambles, management worrying about bullshit instead of making money. If meals are somehow part of your business the company should handle it (expense card with basic oversight/approval).

Dude, you are so on the front line of my battlefield army. Such heart, such vigor!

[gstelmack]

I want to know how Flasch got an office big enough to hold 20 people for breakfast...

[Flasch186]

I want to know how Flasch got an office big enough to hold 20 people for breakfast...

its called a model home.

[Subby]

Its no wonder this economy is in shambles, management worrying about bullshit instead of making money.
SHAMBLES!

[digamma]

These 'businesses' come up with the stupidest practices I ever heard of.

Have your damn employees eat before work or go without. What the hell is bullshit about enforced buying meals for people?!

Its no wonder this economy is in shambles, management worrying about bullshit instead of making money. If meals are somehow part of your business the company should handle it (expense card with basic oversight/approval).

Grind the worker into mindless mulch. Hire new ones next planting season!

[Flasch186]

i got the impression from the lady at the governmental agency that the 'At Will' status for the state pretty much lets them do whatever the fuck they want.

[DaddyTorgo]

that's fucking stupid

[digamma]

Congrats on your tax deduction for unreimbursed business expenses.

[Passacaglia]

How much does a box of cereal and two gallons of milk cost, anyway?

[JediKooter]

While I understand the wining and dinning people in the sales world, this is completely fucking stupid. Does your management think that Jacksonville has been completely immune to the economy and that their employees have thousands upon thousands of spare income?

On your day to have the meeting, just bring in some of your iced tea.

[Tekneek]

It's not the first time I've seen a business make a decision and then try to get their employees to foot the bill for it. I suspect they are keenly aware of the economy and unemployment. It allows them to hang the "we'll easily find somebody else who WANTS this job" cloud over anyone who rocks the boat, meanwhile they continue to get people who will pay out-of-pocket for things the owners should buy (or decide not to have at all). At the very least, people who institute a policy like this lack integrity and ethics. They could have more influence by hosting a meeting, in the rotation, and always springing for everything they hope others will. Peer pressure alone might bring about what they hope to achieve without being draconian about it.

If you participate in any of this, you should keep all of your receipts. This way, if you decide to stick with it, you should be able to deduct these expenses on your tax return.

[Tekneek]

i got the impression from the lady at the governmental agency that the 'At Will' status for the state pretty much lets them do whatever the fuck they want.

That does seem to be how it works, barring a discrimination issue.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Here's the scene

I am a 100% commission Sales associate for a builder and I am an employee.

The new regime is "Requiring" that we take a Realtor to breakfast at least once per week up to $25 to be reimbursed at the end of the month. However, they never follow through on putting the procedure in place to get reimbursed.

Now you couple that with the fact that Sales meetings, once per week, are to be held in an individual's sales office on a rotation. When its your turn, you are "required" to provide breakfast for everyone (20+). This has been stated that it will NOT be reimbursed.

Is this allowed? Im in Florida if that matters?

Rereading this (and understanding the difference now between who you're buying breakfast for on the 20x one), if it's any consolation to you, it isn't the first time I've heard of either of these things with builders. The client we worked with last year had similar kinds of things, although with the feeding the troops they were allowed to take that from (of all things) their marketing budget for that office. Of course their "marketing" budget also covered pencils, copy paper, and other sundries.

I'm guessing that the home builders niche might be one of the more fucked up on stuff like this, after anecdotal experience I attribute it to having businesses run by people better suited to handling a hammer & a nail gun.

[JediKooter]

I'm guessing that the home builders niche might be one of the more fucked up on stuff like this, after anecdotal experience I attribute it to having businesses run by people better suited to handling a hammer & a nail gun.

And probably have a meth addiction.

[CU Tiger]

Yeah in an at will state they can do whatever they want basically and you can either quit or accept i.

I jut hired a technician (today in fact) from one of my bigger competitors locally. This company (which is primarily security only and does not do the home tech/automation or industrial work I do) started offering a new camera package and required every employee to purchase a laptop to set up the cameras. Fair enough I suppose, it is a tool of the job. But they actually required them to buy a particular laptop FROM THE EMPLOYER at a crazy ass rate. It was a bargain basement quality, 2 year old spec laptop for over 3k.

This employee of 10 years told them he was ill on Monday and came and talked to me. So now I have one of my biggest competitor's best employees, and their business practices and price lists, and he was their license QA for NC...good for me.

[PilotMan]

i got the impression from the lady at the governmental agency that the 'At Will' status for the state pretty much lets them do whatever the fuck they want.

Kentucky is an "At Will" state, and my idea of how that is works is how it was explained to you. Not too many protections for non-unionized employees. I think that she is right on, and that as stupid as it is, you are probably SOL.

[Dutch]

Just sell homes to more people without checking their credit history, you'll make up the difference in no time.

[Tekneek]

Just sell homes to more people without checking their credit history, you'll make up the difference in no time.

What bubble? Party like it is 2001 and we're going straight up!

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Being a commission or salary, rather than an hourly paid employee can also make a difference on things like this.

As at-will, you are in a tough spot on that.

Forced purchases do exist. You see it sometimes with restaurants/fast food where employees are required to buy a uniform or shirt. I think there may be some limit but I am not sure.

I doubt federal law covers this, so you are stuck with relying on Florida law. Sounds like you looked for a statute on this, but came up emptyhanded.

Try to work within the system instead perhaps. Call your employer on reimbursing you. They said they would. So ask them and remind them. Consider doing something else with your people, rather than a meal. Read them a poem instead. Just kidding, but you get the idea. I mean a breakfast at Denny's can be as little as $7 or $8.

But it really does come down to whether you value this job over another one to spring for the meal. If it makes you feel better, think of it as your employer is simply paying you so many dollars less a week or month. Are you ok with that level of compensation?

As for the breakfast for 20 people. Go with doughnuts/muffins/fruit and coffee. Dirt cheap. Can't believe people would expect more than that.

[Flasch186]

Adding that along with a bunch of other stuff I think Im going to turn in my 2 weeks notice this week and concentrate on the start of our own brokerage.

The co. has just gone the wrong direction in the last 6 months and this lack of integrity from the upper management is just one of the straws.

While going from employed to unemployed as a bridge to be self employed is scary, Ive spent a ton of time over the past month soul searching and asking for advice from people I truly respect including the former Top Producer for this same company in Arizona. She left, has done what we plan on doing, and has been extremely successful and will make for a great mentor.

You'd think a company would see writing on the wall when they lose a ton of their Top Producers in a 6 month span of time.

[SportsDino]

That would presume a company understanding business and economics, rather than 'employees are replaceable maggots 101'. Basically they'll get burned, but are too stupid to understand why, and blame it on something completely unrelated (like inferior employees or 'thee economy').

Their loss, wouldn't worry about it if you have the resources to take care of yourself.

[DaddyTorgo]

Adding that along with a bunch of other stuff I think Im going to turn in my 2 weeks notice this week and concentrate on the start of our own brokerage.

The co. has just gone the wrong direction in the last 6 months and this lack of integrity from the upper management is just one of the straws.

While going from employed to unemployed as a bridge to be self employed is scary, Ive spent a ton of time over the past month soul searching and asking for advice from people I truly respect including the former Top Producer for this same company in Arizona. She left, has done what we plan on doing, and has been extremely successful and will make for a great mentor.

You'd think a company would see writing on the wall when they lose a ton of their Top Producers in a 6 month span of time.

Sounds like you've thought it through. I imagine it's a bit scary, but it sounds like others are having success, so that's encouraging.

[wade moore]

Actually, sounds pretty extreme to quit your job because you have to buy some donuts once a month - especially in this job market.

But, maybe I'm just too conservative.

[Flasch186]

eh, I could get a job elsewhere in sales....

This place is frickin' awful now which is amazing the swing it took in 6 months time.

[Flasch186]

FWIW

me and the two partners that would help start a brokerage when I leave the builder, had an awesome 2 hour consult with the preeminent Real Estate teacher here and he truly encouraged us on our way.

This is on the back of the 2 hour consult yesterday with the trailblazer from Arizona. Its been 2 great days of information gathering and direction from 2 highly respected people in the industry.

[duckman]

Sounds like a bunch of useless whining to me. YMMV

[Flasch186]

so this frickin' co. (that I left) had started a policy called 'cross selling' wherein as a site agent assigned to a model home, if I should get a customer that may not be right for my community, I had to try to drive them to another one of our communities in an effort to sell them somewhere else (as opposed to the old way, which was referring them there to one of our other site agents, giving directions, etc.) which could be many many miles away. Well today, I learned, that one of the new hires driving a customer from her community to a different one got Tee Boned and is in the hospital and is scheduled to have surgery in the am. As a site agent we worked for a discounted commission so that we didnt have to be driving all around, etc. like people do in general real estate. I also wonder if this is outside the job description/contract they make us sign annually with them. I hope she sues the shit out of them....they have put so much pressure on the team to never let a customer go, cross sell on days off, before work after work, that they've just really taken their eye off of the ball and now they have an agent in the hospital because of it.

[Chubby]

How did the company cause the accident? The employee could have not been paying attention while driving causing the accident...

[JonInMiddleGA]

Coffee's for closers only.

[sterlingice]

Flasch, you could bring some sort of complaint after the fact, kindof as a whistleblower. I'm sure that opens you up to litigation, however, and that's why companies are sure they can get away with it.

SI

[flere-imsaho]

I am not a lawyer, but if your job requires you to drive places, and you get in an accident while doing that driving, I'm pretty sure that's effectively a workplace injury, with all that involves.

[MacroGuru]

I am not a lawyer, but if your job requires you to drive places, and you get in an accident while doing that driving, I'm pretty sure that's effectively a workplace injury, with all that involves.

especially if you have a base + commission.

[Swaggs]

There are state-by-state laws but I believe you are considered "on the job" if you have gone to your office or place of work AND then drive somewhere. If you are driving from your home (or elsewhere, from not on the job) you are just commuting to work. If she was on the job, worker's compensation should come into play for treating her injuries and missing income.

Flasch's suggestion of a lawsuit would be pretty frivilous, in my opinion. Tens of millions of workers spend time in a vehicle during the work week (policemen, salesmen, construction workers, and on and on). Unless she is incapable of driving (disability, medication, etc.) but was forced to due to the job, blaming an automobile accident like this on your job is a pretty substantial reach, in my opinion.

[Swaggs]

I should add that driving a company vehicle (ie: a police car or business provided/owned pick up truck to your constructions job) versus driving your personal vehicle can turn the to/from work accidents into much more of a grey area.

[johnnyshaka]

I should add that driving a company vehicle (ie: a police car or business provided/owned pick up truck to your constructions job) versus driving your personal vehicle can turn the to/from work accidents into much more of a grey area.

Exactly...up here you need to set that straight with your personal auto insurance company meaning that your rates will increase substantially...something you and your employer should negotiate prior to either being hired or making your personal vehicle a job necessity. You either agree to pay the elevated rates out of pocket and take the job or the employer reimburses you the difference.

[Flasch186]

I am not a lawyer, but if your job requires you to drive places, and you get in an accident while doing that driving, I'm pretty sure that's effectively a workplace injury, with all that involves.

The factors Im looking at however is that:

the sales contract we signed with the company doesnt call for 'cross selling' nor does it talk about driving from community to community in an aggressive manner to 'close' deals.

The co. doesnt insure our cars for this and Im fairly certain none of our insurance companies know that were doing all of this driving for our employer's whim when they decided to go to this new system which isnt on our 'contract'.

There is no base (generally) just commission