Field trip for black students sparks controversy at Ann Arbor elementary school

[Noop]

http://www.annarbor.com/news/black-student-only-field-trip-sparks-controversy-at-ann-arbor-elementary-school/
An Ann Arbor elementary school principal used a letter home to parents tonight to defend a field trip for black students as part of his school’s efforts to close the achievement gap between white and black students.

d*cken Elementary School Principal Mike Madison wrote the letter to parents following several days of controversy at the school after a field trip last week in which black students got to hear a rocket scientist.

“In hindsight, this field trip could have been approached and arranged in a better way," Madison wrote. "But as I reflect upon the look of excitement, enthusiasm and energy that I saw in these children’s eyes as they stood in the presence of a renowned African American rocket scientist in a very successful position, it gave the kids an opportunity to see this type of achievement is possible for even them.

“It was not a wasted venture for I know one day they might want to aspire to be the first astronaut or scientist standing on the Planet Mars.

“I also think it’s important that you know that I have talked to the children who did not go on the field trip, and I think they have a better understanding of the purpose of the AA Lunch Bunch now, as I hope you do. I’m sorry if any kids were upset by the field trip or my discussion afterwards with them, and I have let them know that.

“The intent of our field trip was not to segregate or exclude students as has been reported, but rather to address the societal issues, roadblocks and challenges that our African American children will face as they pursue a successful academic education here in our community.”

A handful of parents have complained to district administrators about the trip, the group and Madison. More than a half-dozen parents contacted AnnArbor.com to raise the complaints, but none would agree to talk on the record, citing concerns of reprisals to their children by Madison.

While there’s no clear agreement between the two sides about exactly what happened, most of the controversy centers on a field trip taken last week by the Lunch Bunch for African American boys and girls to hear a black rocket engineer talk.

District spokeswoman Liz Margolis said after the trip was over, those who went returned to their fifth-grade class and were greeted by boos by those who didn’t go on the trip. Margolis said Madison, who is black, heard the boos, and went to talk to the class. She said he and the class had a “discussion” about race issues.

“He wasn’t yelling at them. He was very passionate about it,” Margolis said.

Parents have complained he was yelling at the class and belittled a Muslim girl who said she also had experienced racism and discrimination.

The program itself began earlier this year after the school received its latest achievement results. Margolis said the Lunch Bunch came from the school’s School Improvement Team and is tied to that team’s goals. She said several other schools in the district have similar programs targeting specific subgroups of students who are at risk.

According to meeting minutes, Madison introduced the club to the PTO in February as part of the school and district’s equity work.

Parent Vicki Haviland, who is white and has three children at d*cken, said she is supportive of the overall program. Haviland is the secretary of the d*cken PTO and has filed papers for the open school board seat.

“I think the African-American Lunch Bunch is totally in line with the district’s equity work,” she said. “I think the field trip was a fine idea.”

She said she hopes the school and the district would “do a better job in talking about (race in education). Clearly there are people who don’t feel heard about it.”

[Noop]

I am against racial segregation of any kind, this principal is misguided.

[Ksyrup]

d*cken Elementary School

Don't these kids have it bad enough as it is?

[JediKooter]

This weeks vocabulary word...EXCLUSION.

[DaddyTorgo]

I kinda agree with Noop in a way...but kinda not. If they're going to have an AA-only meeting with an AA rocket scientist then they should do similar things for other minorities (how about a successful muslim woman for the girl, successful latinos for the hispanic kids, a successful white person for the caucasian kids). Then turn it into a big "successful people talk to kids" day and have all the different people talk to the whole class, to show them everyone can be successful. And you can break it down after that...give the kids the chance to talk to people in small groups based on what their interest is.

[illinifan999]

Somehow if this was a white principal arranging for a white-only field trip, I don't think his actions would be described as "misguided".

[Subby]

That is a terribly written article.

[DanGarion]

I think the kids parents should be pissed at the school for singling out their children.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Gotta love this quote
it gave the kids an opportunity to see this type of achievement is possible for even them.

Imagine if a white guy said that about black students.

[wade moore]

Somehow if this was a white principal arranging for a white-only field trip, I don't think his actions would be described as "misguided".

It took 6 posts, I'm impressed.

[Noop]

Somehow if this was a white principal arranging for a white-only field trip, I don't think his actions would be described as "misguided".

Race Baiting. Nice. The principal was trying to do something good but his approach was misguided. However since you want to make this a racial thing, if a white guy said it, it would be misguided as well.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Incidentally, for the curious, the school is 60% white, about 20% black, about 9% Asian. Their AYP status is fine, and their proficiency rate is in the high 80's to mid 90's depending upon the subject.

[molson]

I think someday in this country we have to decide if race is something unique/special that needs to be celebrated, or if its something that needs to be hidden and ignored until we're all one race with no differences.

The first one sounds better, but we don't seem to like it in practice.

[illinifan999]

Race Baiting. Nice. The principal was trying to do something good but his approach was misguided. However since you want to make this a racial thing, if a white guy said it, it would be misguided as well.

Bullshit. If this was a white guy, he would be fired already and there would be protests outside the school.

[Noop]

Bullshit. If this was a white guy, he would be fired already and there would be protests outside the school.

Considering I've seen white police officer murder people in cold blood and still retain their jobs, I raise your bullshit with a you're tremedously full of shit.

[Logan]

Really? They were charged with, and found guilty of, murder and kept their jobs?

[illinifan999]

Considering I've seen white police officer murder people in cold blood and still retain their jobs, I raise your bullshit with a you're tremedously full of shit.

I didn't realize two wrongs made a right.

[Noop]

I didn't realize two wrongs made a right.

3 lefts will bring you right back where you started though.

[DanGarion]

3 lefts will bring you right back where you started though.

And UPS only makes rights.

[illinifan999]

Considering I've seen white police officer murder people in cold blood and still retain their jobs, I raise your bullshit with a you're tremedously full of shit.

And I guess I don't see how I'm tremendously full of shit? Are you trying to tell me that if a white principal arranged a white-only field trip he wouldn't be fired, Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson wouldn't have 500 people protesting outside the school, and a massive lawsuit wouldn't be in the near future? What does a white police officer killing someone and retaining their job have to do with this particular situation?

[molson]

It's not a popular opinion, but I think there is a difference between the majority/privileged race segregating/excluding, and a minority race doing the same.

If someone's a white American guy in Saudi Arabia (not quite a perfect comparison, but whatever), they would be all about establishing a white community, white clubs, looking out for each other, etc.

[JonInMiddleGA]

It's not a popular opinion, but I think there is a difference between the majority/privileged race segregating/excluding, and a minority race doing the same.

So the only people who get to consider race when determining their associations are minorities? Interesting spin.

[Abe Sargent]

I think this may violate the Michigan CRI passed a few years ago though.

[Abe Sargent]

I guess part of me wants to know what the talk was about. If it was just a presention by a rocket scientist who happeens to be black about rocket science, then I agree there's a problem. If it was a talk by a highly successful black person who happens to be a rocket scientist about how to succeed as a black person, then I;m okay with it.

[Logan]

I guess part of me wants to know what the talk was about. If it was just a presention by a rocket scientist who happeens to be black about rocket science, then I agree there's a problem. If it was a talk by a highly successful black person who happens to be a rocket scientist about how to succeed as a black person, then I;m okay with it.

I would place the odds that such a renowned person could give a speech like that without bringing up his educational/work background and the challenges it took as a human to achieve it, or a thorough description of what it means to be a rocket scientist, at somewhere in the range of 1 in 10,000.

[DanGarion]

It's not a popular opinion, but I think there is a difference between the majority/privileged race segregating/excluding, and a minority race doing the same.

If someone's a white American guy in Saudi Arabia (not quite a perfect comparison, but whatever), they would be all about establishing a white community, white clubs, looking out for each other, etc.

Sorry can't have it both ways.

Why not make an American community, and club, that would be a much more useful and beneficial way of not excluding any race. And wouldn't you still want to community/club to be open to Saudi's that are interested knowing more about our culture?

[Solecismic]

This has been a huge story out here the last few days. Very emotional.

Apparently the African-American Lunch Bunch meets every Friday, usually for pizza and basketball, according to the principal. So there's already some tension in the school about this.

As the story indicates, last week the group met a scientist, and when the fifth-graders returned to class, there was booing. When the principal heard about this, he addressed the class.

According to the mother of one Muslim girl, he was irate, and asked the kids if they had a problem with him taking kids of what he called "my race" on the field trip. When the girl replied that she did, he yelled at her and repeated the question. No one answered.

I'm troubled by this, because I'm watching my son grow up. He's in a school with less than 50% white students. And if he notices, he hasn't said anything. I'd like him to remain innocent of all the racial b.s. in society as long as possible. Maybe that's naive on my part, but kids don't seem to be naturally racist - parents have to interject the b.s. part themselves.

I would think every student in the school would learn from meeting a scientist. It might make the African-American kids a little more proud, give them a specific role model. It would also be an important lesson for the non-African-American kids in case they have parents who add to the b.s.. And it's pretty cool for kids of any race to meet a rocket scientist of any race. Ann Arbor's a great place to grow up. With a world-class university, we bring in top talent from every culture. If there's a place where segregation is unwelcome, it's here.

[molson]

So the only people who get to consider race when determining their associations are minorities? Interesting spin.

I think people should be able to associate with anyone they want. I just think there's generally different motivations behind that desire, and they do have different impacts on society. And so I'm not going to criticize people who want to put together a minority club, just because some would criticize a majority club.

It's tricky because it's generally accepted to be proud of being "black", but not accepted to be proud of being "white". It was OK to be proud of being Irish, or Italian, or French, but as time goes on and we lose those ties, we get grouped together as "white" and are basically told we're the default race, we have no identify, so we can't express any particular pride in that status.

The obvious solution is to be proud of being "American" - but blacks and whites alike don't seem to be able to happily share that status with each other yet. Whites have kind of been forced into it more, because of the stigma of positively identifying oneself as white. Blacks haven't been forced into it in the same way, partly because they whites won't let them, and partly because there identify more as "black" than "American".

The last two paragraphs were rambling......Ah, to hell with it, I'll just hit "submit reply".

[RainMaker]

Somehow if this was a white principal arranging for a white-only field trip, I don't think his actions would be described as "misguided".
Somehow if white people had been enslaved on this continent for hundreds of years, stripped of all worldly possesions and then told one day to be on the same level as whites, I don't think his actions would be described as "misguided".

Not arguing for the guy. I just hate the arguments like that which ignore our history over the last few hundred years.

[DanGarion]

Somehow if white people had been enslaved on this continent for hundreds of years, stripped of all worldly possesions and then told one day to be on the same level as whites, I don't think his actions would be described as "misguided".

Not arguing for the guy. I just hate the arguments like that which ignore our history over the last few hundred years.

I hate arguments that make those that have nothing to do with the history of enslaving people have to be blamed for it over and over.

[illinifan999]

I hate arguments that make those that have nothing to do with the history of enslaving people have to be blamed for it over and over.


I can say with 100% certainty that my ancestor's never owned a slave on the American continent.

Didn't the black Africans in many cases sell other black Africans to the white people?

How many cases in Africa did black tribes enslave other black tribes?

I love how everyone makes slavery out to be a white only thing. I mean hell, I'm sure you can go to Africa right now and find that slavery exists.

[BillJasper]

Somehow if white people had been enslaved on this continent for hundreds of years, stripped of all worldly possesions and then told one day to be on the same level as whites, I don't think his actions would be described as "misguided".

Not arguing for the guy. I just hate the arguments like that which ignore our history over the last few hundred years.

So it's okay to exclude someone (or group) based on the mistakes their forebearers made hundreds of years ago?

[DanGarion]

It's as bad as continuing to blame the Germans for Nazism and Hitler.

[RainMaker]

So it's okay to exclude someone (or group) based on the mistakes their forebearers made hundreds of years ago?
No, I said I'm not arguing for the guy at all. I just don't like it when people make comparisions between the races on issues like this. When someone jumps in and says "well if there is a black scholarship fund, can you imagine the outrage if we had a white scholarship fund?".

There is a reason that many of those things are in place and socially accepted as opposed to a white version of it. I think the person made a mistake in this situation but think his heart was in the right place during it.

[molson]

I hate arguments that make those that have nothing to do with the history of enslaving people have to be blamed for it over and over.

I don't think anyone's blaming you, but slavery is a major factor in how this country evolved demographically, socially, and economically. To ignore that is pretty naive. We're not all on the same footing even now. There are real differences. Maybe those things change over time as people's self-identification evolves, but right now, we're still pretty close to those events that formed and developed this country.

[BYU 14]

I kinda agree with Noop in a way...but kinda not. If they're going to have an AA-only meeting with an AA rocket scientist then they should do similar things for other minorities (how about a successful muslim woman for the girl, successful latinos for the hispanic kids, a successful white person for the caucasian kids). Then turn it into a big "successful people talk to kids" day and have all the different people talk to the whole class, to show them everyone can be successful. And you can break it down after that...give the kids the chance to talk to people in small groups based on what their interest is.

You're on the right track DT, any type of exclusion does absolutely nothing for the future of these kids but breed resentment and actually places a "perception" in these students minds that they are academically inferior IMO. This whole thing was just completely stupid and poorly conceived. As I have said before to get anywhere with race relation we have to forget stupid fucking buzzwords like "Don't see color." START seeing color, culture and ethnicity so kids can learn to celebrate and appreciate the differences that exist with different cultures and give ALL cultures the same opportunity. Issues with students that lag behind should be addressed on a student by student basis, not a color by color basis.


Race Baiting. Nice. The principal was trying to do something good but his approach was misguided. However since you want to make this a racial thing, if a white guy said it, it would be misguided as well.

Bullshit. If this was a white guy, he would be fired already and there would be protests outside the school.

Instead of shit like this, call it what it is...A principal that made a stupid decision and should be reprimanded.

And Illini why do you think things are this way. Because there are more people that are willing to make noise if the situation is reversed, when in fact anybody who gives a shit about race relations and community unity should be making noise about this, regardless of ethnicity.

The only way things like this stop is when people of different cultures address it together when it is justified to do so, not because it is the popular thing to do, furthers other ambitions or just plain to get their faces on TV.

[Abe Sargent]

I think people should be able to associate with anyone they want. I just think there's generally different motivations behind that desire, and they do have different impacts on society. And so I'm not going to criticize people who want to put together a minority club, just because some would criticize a majority club.

It's tricky because it's generally accepted to be proud of being "black", but not accepted to be proud of being "white". It was OK to be proud of being Irish, or Italian, or French, but as time goes on and we lose those ties, we get grouped together as "white" and are basically told we're the default race, we have no identify, so we can't express any particular pride in that status.

The obvious solution is to be proud of being "American" - but blacks and whites alike don't seem to be able to happily share that status with each other yet. Whites have kind of been forced into it more, because of the stigma of positively identifying oneself as white. Blacks haven't been forced into it in the same way, partly because they whites won't let them, and partly because there identify more as "black" than "American".

The last two paragraphs were rambling......Ah, to hell with it, I'll just hit "submit reply".

I'm not proud of being American, but I am proud of best West Virginian.

[DaddyTorgo]

And ya know...I'd be willing to bet with my idea that the kids would self-select to go talk to the person most similar to them anyways, so you'd accomplish the same goal - while at the same time showing the other kids that people who are different are just as good as they are.

[DanGarion]

I don't think anyone's blaming you, but slavery is a major factor in how this country evolved demographically, socially, and economically. To ignore that is pretty naive.

So was killing Native American's and a war with the Mexican's, I'm not being naive to it, I just don't feel everyone should continue to be blamed for it, years after the fact.

[Abe Sargent]

I don't think anyone's blaming you, but slavery is a major factor in how this country evolved demographically, socially, and economically. To ignore that is pretty naive.

An anti-slavery as well, is part of how we are formed. I read a chapter in a cool history book once that talked about the removal of both slavery and anti-slavery pre Civil War in many history texts. As an example, Jim Brown was portrayed as crazy, with the undertone that he couldn;t really want to free the slaves that badly.

[Crapshoot]

Its a stupid thing, and its indefensible. Intent doesn't excuse the net result. Targeting the achievement gap is fine, but treat people as individuals.

[BYU 14]

Ah, the naivety to think slavery for all purposes actually ended in 1865 in many parts of this nation. Yes, this principal had a sort of silly idea, but the fact that people just wave away hundreds of years of racial discrimination that was part and parcel of official government policy up until a time when many people on this board were still alive as something people should just 'get over' is silly.

And no, for those saying it, your ancestors may not have owned slaves, but they sure as hell benefited from the white privilige in society that still exists to this very day.

At some point you need to accept that these things in the past happened and start progressing towards real solutions. How much time is enough to move on? Racism exists on all sides and ignorance runs even deeper. Comments like this disturb me. You are right, don't just "get over it", but why not move past it and do your part to improve it, which eventually means letting go of the old wounds.

[Honolulu Blue]

I'm troubled by this, because I'm watching my son grow up. He's in a school with less than 50% white students. And if he notices, he hasn't said anything. I'd like him to remain innocent of all the racial b.s. in society as long as possible. Maybe that's naive on my part, but kids don't seem to be naturally racist - parents have to interject the b.s. part themselves.

I would think every student in the school would learn from meeting a scientist. It might make the African-American kids a little more proud, give them a specific role model. It would also be an important lesson for the non-African-American kids in case they have parents who add to the b.s.. And it's pretty cool for kids of any race to meet a rocket scientist of any race. Ann Arbor's a great place to grow up. With a world-class university, we bring in top talent from every culture. If there's a place where segregation is unwelcome, it's here.

Thanks, Jim, for being a voice of rationality. Kids are not, of course, naturally racist, but they learn quickly. Parents help, but the media also does its part.

I know that when I was in school that I would have welcomed meeting or listening to successful people of any kind and any race. Ann Arbor seems like a nice place to be, even if the university there is, well... not quite as "all that" as some people think it is.

[Honolulu Blue]

I read a chapter in a cool history book once that talked about the removal of both slavery and anti-slavery pre Civil War in many history texts. As an example, Jim Brown was portrayed as crazy, with the undertone that he couldn;t really want to free the slaves that badly.

Jim Brown the lacrosse player or Jim Brown the Godfather? :D

[RainMaker]

So was killing Native American's and a war with the Mexican's, I'm not being naive to it, I just don't feel everyone should continue to be blamed for it, years after the fact.
No one is blaming anyone. Just talking about reasons why people are helping to close a gap that was made by hundreds of years of oppression.

[BYU 14]

I'm troubled by this, because I'm watching my son grow up. He's in a school with less than 50% white students. And if he notices, he hasn't said anything. I'd like him to remain innocent of all the racial b.s. in society as long as possible. Maybe that's naive on my part, but kids don't seem to be naturally racist - parents have to interject the b.s. part themselves.

I would think every student in the school would learn from meeting a scientist. It might make the African-American kids a little more proud, give them a specific role model. It would also be an important lesson for the non-African-American kids in case they have parents who add to the b.s.. And it's pretty cool for kids of any race to meet a rocket scientist of any race. Ann Arbor's a great place to grow up. With a world-class university, we bring in top talent from every culture. If there's a place where segregation is unwelcome, it's here.

I wish more people were as "naive" as you and we wouldn't even be having this discussion. 100% spot on!

[Abe Sargent]

Jim Brown the lacrosse player or Jim Brown the Godfather? :D

Heh. Sorry, JOHN BROWN

[Greyroofoo]

I really don't think fighting racism with more racism is a good idea.

[RainMaker]

If the principal had taken the kids from poor homes to meet a guy who was also poor as a child and became succesful, would everyone here be upset? Not taking a side here, just curious.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Ann Arbor's a great place to grow up. With a world-class university, we bring in top talent from every culture. If there's a place where segregation is unwelcome, it's here.

What an interesting thing, to see this take on a college town & for me to contrast it with Athens, GA.

Population count is virtually the same (2008 estimate was 114,300 for AA, 113,300 for Athens), nearly the same number of HH with children under 18 (23% to 22%), both are even the 5th largest city in their respective states. Both are noted for the left-leaning local politics, college sports, both have film festivals, arts festivals in the streets, both have a handful of radio stations & 1-2 local TV stations but are primarily served by network affiliates from other larger markets.

And then the similarities end.

AA is about 75% white, 9% black, Athens is about 65% white, 27% black.
AA has a median HHI of $46,300, Athens has a median HHI of $28,100.
AA has one of the lowest crime rates in the nation, Athens has one of the highest.

You described AA as a place "where segregation is unwelcome", I'd describe Athens as a place where segregation is very much the norm & is practiced by both of the primary racial groups.

I'm offering no conclusions, I'm offering no particular commentary, I just thought the similarities & differences were very striking.

[Wolfpack]

It's hard to make an even comparison between Athens and Ann Arbor just considering the percentages of minorities in each place. Athens is pretty much like any town in the rural South (which until recently was pretty much the South as a whole aside from exceptions like Atlanta and New Orleans). That is, a slave-holding region, then after the Civil War, a Jim Crow region, but the populations despite segregation were largely intermingled so African Americans were always a large proportion of any given place's population. Ann Arbor is pretty much like any rural town/small city in the North. All the major factory jobs were concentrated in the big cities like Chicago or Cleveland or, in this case, Detroit, so when the Great Migration occurred, African-Americans went there instead of places like Ann Arbor. It wasn't so much that Ann Arbor didn't invite blacks, the city just didn't have anything they were interested in.

Ann Arbor is as liberal-progressive as they come and sometimes they fall over themselves to show it off, so given any sort of chance to burnish their multicultural values, they'd gladly do so. Still doesn't change the fact that the town's cost of living is very high which is its own deterrent to lower-class (and by extension lower-class minority) influxes into the city. It's not as steep of a grade as it is between Detroit proper and any of the Grosse Pointes, but it's still there.

[Karlifornia]

YES IF IT WAS A WHITES ONLY FIELD TRIP PEOPLE WOULD BE MORE PISSED. WHITES ARE THE MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION. WHITES WERE NOT ENSLAVED.

YES IT IS A DOUBLE STANDARD. IT EXISTS, AND IT'S NOT GOING AWAY ANY TIME SOON. IT DOESN'T NEED TO BE POINTED OUT IN EVERY THREAD ABOUT RACE, BECAUSE WE ALREADY FUCKING KNOW!!!!!!


Ah, I feel much better.

[RainMaker]

One of the other big contrasts in Athens and Ann Arbor is money. And in fact when you look deeper into financial success, it's typically not found in areas that promote segregation. It's why the South is for the most part, very poor. When your community is focusing on making sure the lesbian girl doesn't attend prom, you aren't worrying about your kids doing their homework and applying for college.

[Abe Sargent]

Two of my sisters are black and two are white. It;d be a little weird to only invite half of my family to a field trip, you know?

[JonInMiddleGA]

One of the other big contrasts in Athens and Ann Arbor is money. And in fact when you look deeper into financial success, it's typically not found in areas that promote segregation.

'Course, those areas also tend to have a larger black population, areas that aren't often known for financial success either.

[nole4sho]

Considering I've seen white police officer murder people in cold blood and still retain their jobs, I raise your bullshit with a you're tremedously full of shit.

You still suck at poker.

3 lefts will bring you right back where you started though.

Marvin your online persona is not as funny as your real life persona.

[DanGarion]

You still suck at poker.



Marvin your online persona is not as funny as your real life persona.

Thread winner.

[JediKooter]

Two of my sisters are black and two are white.

Did Lungs have something to do with that?

[Solecismic]

The club has been disbanded, according to the school district, and the scientist has been invited to the school to speak to all of the students.

No word yet on whether the principal will be disciplined.

[Sun Tzu]

The club has been disbanded, according to the school district, and the scientist has been invited to the school to speak to all of the students.

No word yet on whether the principal will be disciplined.

Wait a minute wait a minute...is this the American Idol Season 9 thread?

[CU Tiger]

In a conversation about racial equality why is it ok to assume the rocket scientist had a difficult and troubled childhood?

Is it really ok to assume black=poor, because that is not my experience at all. Sure there are population segments, but I'd imagine most rocket scientist come from UMC-> families and Id assume this one is no different.

I personally find it offensive to blacks when the story is assumed to be a rags to riches story or when the Myron Rolle story revolves more around his race then his achievement.

[Marc Vaughan]

It's not a popular opinion, but I think there is a difference between the majority/privileged race segregating/excluding, and a minority race doing the same.

I disagree with this vehemently - even 'positive discrimination' like the example given causes bad feeling between the groups as was shown by the reaction of the class mates who weren't taken on the trip.

The only times I think that discrimination is right is if its done in an encouraging fashion as a reward for performance or attitude, that sort of thing.

If the people who went on this trip were the top scorers in an end of year test - then yeah thats cool, thats showing real-life cause and effect and encouraging others to try harder.

If someone's a white American guy in Saudi Arabia (not quite a perfect comparison, but whatever), they would be all about establishing a white community, white clubs, looking out for each other, etc.

Actually my father worked over there for a couple of years when he was younger and no he wasn't that way inclined at all ..... don't paint everyone with the same approach that you yourself might take.

Similarly I don't 'get' English people over here who feel the need to try and become my 'buddy' because I'm English - people are people, if I'd get on with someone then it doesn't matter what accent they have (although if you're a soccer fan it doesn't hurt ;) ).

[Passacaglia]

What was the motivation for making it exclusive anyway? Jesus H. Christ, it's like they *want* to miss opportunities to teach the white kids that African Americans can be successful.

[Wolfpack]

What was the motivation for making it exclusive anyway? Jesus H. Christ, it's like they *want* to miss opportunities to teach the white kids that African Americans can be successful.

This is Ann Arbor we're talking about. The white kids probably see President Obama's picture hanging in most every classroom (and that was before the election). They haven't yet (as far as I know) begun singing patriotic songs about Obama with the fervor of a school in North Korea or Cuba or Newark, but I'm sure someone on staff thought about it. :D

[Noop]

You still suck at poker.



Marvin your online persona is not as funny as your real life persona.

I might suck at poker but at least I don't suck at life.