A question on training...

[Qwikshot]

Ok...I've been training midfield...the problem is that I believe I have a few players in other positions ready to bump up...please take a gander...

Train Goalkeeper

Saphou Supriyadi
256 000 US$, 20 years, passable form
Has disastrous experience and wretched leadership abilities

Stamina: poor Keeper: passable
Playmaking: disastrous Passing: disastrous
Winger: disastrous Defending: disastrous
Scoring: disastrous Set Pieces: disastrous

He's 20, but he seems so close to the solid mark...I have no backup goalkeeper worth mentioning.

I believe at most a week or two?!?

Train Scoring

Choochai Rochana
63 000 US$, 32 years, solid form
Has inadequate experience and passable leadership abilities

Stamina: excellent Keeper: wretched
Playmaking: poor Passing: poor
Winger: passable Defending: passable
Scoring: passable Set Pieces: inadequate

Gary Grewar
55 000 US$, 19 years, solid form
Has disastrous experience and weak leadership abilities

Stamina: inadequate Keeper: disastrous
Playmaking: weak Passing: poor
Winger: poor Defending: inadequate

Bartlomiej Zabawa
49 000 US$, 19 years, inadequate form
Has disastrous experience and inadequate leadership abilities [Unpredictable]

Stamina: inadequate Keeper: disastrous
Playmaking: poor Passing: weak
Winger: poor Defending: poor
Scoring: passable Set Pieces: weak

Choochai has been seeing time at forward...but it's really about the Scotsman Grewar and the German Zabawa...I'm guessing two to three weeks?

Train Defense

Ike Noe
110 000 US$, 22 years, passable form
Has disastrous experience and inadequate leadership abilities [Powerful]

Stamina: passable Keeper: disastrous
Playmaking: inadequate Passing: weak
Winger: inadequate Defending: solid
Scoring: wretched Set Pieces: passable

Travis Sousa
79 000 US$, 24 years, solid form
Has poor experience and passable leadership abilities

Stamina: passable Keeper: wretched
Playmaking: weak Passing: weak
Winger: disastrous Defending: solid
Scoring: weak Set Pieces: solid

My anchorheads...Noe is my pride and joy and has been jumping up in value much...Sousa I believe is further off.

Anyone anyone...I want to bump these guys up as fast as I can because I've got two 17 year old wingers and mids to attend too, but I feel the need to fix the guys I have starting as well.

I will probably try scoring first unless someone can almost be positive of another area bumping up...my league is heavy on defense and getting two solid scorers would be a breath of fresh air to some really stagnant draws...

Thanks and sorry.

[Brillig]

Goalies pop solid at around $300k, so even with a solid coach and 8 goalkeeping trainers, you're probably looking at 2-3 weeks.

Just based on age of trainees, looks like you're best off training scoring.

[The Afoci]

The rest I have no idea but I have a 20 year old passable goalie with wretched stamina that is valued at $280k.

edit: I got beat to it...

[Qwikshot]

Thanks for all your help, scoring it is, I think Grewar is close...Zabawa is off a little (I've seen solids as low as 57,000 to 60k).

[Havok]

Im far from an expert, but i'd say that goalie is close to bumping

[-Panther]

Supriyadi I'm almost certain is no more than 2 weeks from popping.

Rochana I don't think is that close to popping in scoring. Pass Winger/Defending is accounting for probably 1/2 at the least of his
value. I've got a pass scoring/passing inad winger/def valued at 107k.

Zabawa might be close I'd say 2-4 weeks. so approx. 3 weeks.

Grewar don't know what his scoring is. assuming passable. same
as Zabawa, about 2-3.

I'd 'guess' Sousa is no more than 2-3. probably closer to 2.

Noe's got some padding from PM and Wing. I'd say he's 3 maybe 4.

I'm no expert here. just my 2 1/2 cents.

if you can do 7-8 GK coaches, I'd say you might get lucky and get
Supriyadi to pop in 1 week. will be tough though. he's got about
40k value to go till he's solid. 280-290k seems to be the common
pass to solid value.

this is without accounting for extreme ages. Choochai will prob take 5+ weeks longer being 32.

[DataKing]

Just something to bear in mind...

Unless you're looking at re-sale value, then there's no real extra incentive to do a little training to make a guy "pop." I goalkeeper who is one week away from solid, and a goalkeeper who just "popped" to solid this week, are both very close in ability, and will perform nearly the same.

On the other hand, a keeper who just "popped" to solid and keeper who is one week away from "popping" to excellent are of considerably different talent level, even though they are both "solid." There are varying degrees of ability within one ability category (passable, solid, excellent, etc.).

[Qwikshot]

Dataking, what would be the point of training then? I still would believe it would be better to have a low solid scorer, than a high passable...I may there should be some degree of improvement. Ike Noe could be a few weeks from excellent, wouldn't there be an incentive to have him at excellent than high solid? Wouldn't having a solid keeper be far better than a passable one, especially with a defensive minded coach and 3 solid defenders?

I just want to maximize my starters ability because I need their best ability in my division. And at least with the forwards I could sell one off for profit...

[RonnieDobbs]

I've always interpreted the solid, passable, etc. to be a verbal way to describe a player with a certain number of "training points." These numbers are all just made up, but let's say 10-19 is passable and 20-29 are solid. A player who bumps from 19 to 20 "training points" will then show as solid, but will only be one "training point" better than he was the week before, and it is actually these "training points" that determine how well he plays. All my players who've just bumped don't really play better then next game. That all happens over time as they accumulate more of these weeks of training.

The words used to explain how much training a player has, then, in my opinion, is only good for people who don't realize this. Train until they pop, then sell them to someone who will overpay. I had a 17 year old inad. defender that I bought for 5K, training him to passable in one week, and sold him for 93K. That's just the way it goes, you have to take advantage of people who are too into the names.

[dacman]

Well, to expound on DK's musings:

If you're point is to re-sell the player after "popping" then by all means train him. If your point is to get better performance, then it's a mixed bag.

Given the number scale 0=non-existant, 1=disastrous, 2=wretched, 3=poor, 4=weak, etc., etc........

If you're goalie is a high passable (passable=6) he's probably like a 6.8. If you train him for a couple weeks, he may "pop" to solid, but his real number will be 7.0 or 7.1.

In other words, apparent difference = solid minus passable = 7 - 6 = 1.
On the other hand, the real difference = 7.1 - 6.8 = 0.3. You won't actually see much difference in performance on the field, if any at all.

Make sense?

[dacman]

Oh, BTW, a 32-yo is NOT going to "pop" in scoring no matter how long you train him unless he's REALLY REALLY close to popping anyway.

[Qwikshot]

Originally posted by dacman
Well, to expound on DK's musings:

If you're point is to re-sell the player after "popping" then by all means train him. If your point is to get better performance, then it's a mixed bag.

Given the number scale 0=non-existant, 1=disastrous, 2=wretched, 3=poor, 4=weak, etc., etc........

If you're goalie is a high passable (passable=6) he's probably like a 6.8. If you train him for a couple weeks, he may "pop" to solid, but his real number will be 7.0 or 7.1.

In other words, apparent difference = solid minus passable = 7 - 6 = 1.
On the other hand, the real difference = 7.1 - 6.8 = 0.3. You won't actually see much difference in performance on the field, if any at all.

Make sense?

Yes better, thank you...still I believe that .3 could help. I just feel that when considering the potential of your players, if they can be feasibly increased in some way, I would do it...otherwise, why go for a high passable keeper unless to train and sell? We are stating then that as long as the goalie is passable that he will play like any other passable goalie...a passable goalie with a high solid form would be no different than a solid goalie with a passable form...even more bareboned...a solid goalie is only slightly better (almost inconsequential) to that of a passable goalie...


To me I just feel that in order to have a solid team, one must maximize what we have (especailly when there is no money to buy for more prospects).

If I sell off Noe and Sousa at profit and find say two passable defenders, it would be okay because in the end, the two new defenders though passable would really play no differently at defense than my two solid defenders?

[RonnieDobbs]

This is where watching how they actually play is important. You will definitely see a difference betwen a low passable goalie and a high solid goalie with the same form, but a high passable goalie and a low solid goalie might be difficult to distinguish between.

Skill increases are continuous, not a major jump every 8 weeks.

[dacman]

Originally posted by Qwikshot
If I sell off Noe and Sousa at profit and find say two passable defenders, it would be okay because in the end, the two new defenders though passable would really play no differently at defense than my two solid defenders?

Not necessarily. Given a solid defender who's internal defending number is say 7.9 (high solid) versus say one who's 6.0 (low passable), the real difference is 1.9 -- you will most definately see a performance difference there.

However, if you manged to find two more high passables, then yes they probably would play not much differently than 2 newly popped solid defenders. In that case, form would be the deciding factor more often than not.

[Jets80]

After reading this thread I too have a few training questions, I figured I'de just put them in this same thread instead of starting a new one.

How do you know when a guy is getting ready to "pop"?

I have been training playmaking. I play my starters on Sunday and my 17yr old trainies in friendly matches. I really have no clue who is getting ready to pop to the next level in playmaking.

Also, how can you tell the difference between guys who are for example both "solid". How can you tell high solid from low solid?

And my last question, will a guy ever improve in an area I dont train? For example since I am training playmaking, will a guy defense go up or my keeper ever get any better unless I train in those areas?

Thanks for the help.

[Jets80]

One more thing..... I am currently training at 97%. Should I go any higher?....I was thinking about pumping it to 100% and training these guys like dogs..is that a bad idea??

[RonnieDobbs]

It's kind of a crap shoot. The key to telling if someone is about to pop is, obviously, assesed value (although if you've been training them since their last pop you can also keep track of weeks w/ training). However, many things affect assessed value including form, age, and value of secondary skills.

I figure that a large proportion of the players being sold on the market, at least younger players that weren't recently pulled, have just popped before being listed. Look at those. For example, with defenders, it became pretty clear to me that 17 year old pop from inadequate to passable at around 30K. So I went out and found as many 17 year olds with assessed values around 25K, and bought them cheap. Two have popped already.

You won't get a feel for it until after you've been doing it a while. I suppose if we were ambitious we could try to come up with some sort of a loose rubric for popping, but its a lot more difficult with forwards, middies, and wingers due to the probability of important secondary skills. It's easier with goalies and defenders.

[daedalus]

Q . . .

I think you might be missing DK's point a bit. To me, the two purpose for player training are 1) to improve players for your team and 2) to improve players to sell.

In your case, you seem to be training players to improve their abilities - for your team's own use. In that case - and I *think* this is what DK was trying to say - it doesn't really matter if or when they "pop". If Supriyadi is a high-passable/low-solid - let's say in the 6.7-7.1 range - then it doesn't matter if he's listed as a 'passable' or a 'solid'. His salary and performance will be in that particular range. Certainly, if you do decide to train him for a period of time and he's improved - let's say he's now in the 7.7-7.9 range - then it doesn't matter that he's still listed as a 'solid' because his performance and, sadly, his salary will now be in the corresponding range.

On the other hand, where it does matter for one of them to pop is where you are training to sell. Let's say you end up training scoring, even if Zabawa only gets trained to a low solid - say, 7.1-7.3 range - the amount of money he'll fetch you in the auction market will drastically jump even though he's only improved slightly - say, from his previous 6.7-6.9 range.

I know you already know these information - hey, I don't read the Nox dynasty for nothing . . . well, y'know, a teensy bit of scouting ahead for FOFC Cup - but was just hoping to clear up what seems like a bit of confusion and misunderstanding.

[lytic]

Originally posted by Jets80

And my last question, will a guy ever improve in an area I dont train? For example since I am training playmaking, will a guy defense go up or my keeper ever get any better unless I train in those areas?


All players receive a small amount of playmaking since that is what you are training... and I mean small. Same you train a mid and he get 1 training value for the week, the plays that aren't in the mid get like .01 training... so if you train it for like 100 weeks, then all your other player will have gone up one value as well.

I train defending and I have random people pop in defending every once in a great while. Even age doesn't to be too effected because I've had a 30 year old pop one level. I'm sure he'll lose that level like next season when he's 32.

[daedalus]

Originally posted by Jets80
How do you know when a guy is getting ready to "pop"?Also, how can you tell the difference between guys who are for example both "solid". How can you tell high solid from low solid?

As Ronnie said, the best clues are probably values, length of training and performance. The one problem with value is the number of ratings that can be relevant. Where you can have a decent guess at goalkeepers because there is only one important rating, it's far tougher to guess with an outfielder. If you look at Grewar above, it's tough to guess whether it's his passable scoring that's close to popping or if his inadequate defending has thrown the value out of whack.

That leaves the training time and performance. Somebody (TP?) posted a general list of length of time it takes to train each skill a bit ago. If your 17 year old midfield trainee has been working with your solid coach and 8 assistant coach for the last 6 weeks on playmaking, then you know he should be popping in the next week or two. Alternatively, after you get a bit more used to your players and their performance, you can gauge a bit on how well their rating is improving by how they are playing.

And my last question, will a guy ever improve in an area I dont train? For example since I am training playmaking, will a guy defense go up or my keeper ever get any better unless I train in those areas?

Nopers, only those that are playing the appropriate positions will be improving in the skill you are training. For a list of who gets trained, check out the list under "Training" in the "Rules".

[Qwikshot]

Originally posted by daedalus
Q . . .

I think you might be missing DK's point a bit. To me, the two purpose for player training are 1) to improve players for your team and 2) to improve players to sell.

In your case, you seem to be training players to improve their abilities - for your team's own use. In that case - and I *think* this is what DK was trying to say - it doesn't really matter if or when they "pop". If Supriyadi is a high-passable/low-solid - let's say in the 6.7-7.1 range - then it doesn't matter if he's listed as a 'passable' or a 'solid'. His salary and performance will be in that particular range. Certainly, if you do decide to train him for a period of time and he's improved - let's say he's now in the 7.7-7.9 range - then it doesn't matter that he's still listed as a 'solid' because his performance and, sadly, his salary will now be in the corresponding range.

On the other hand, where it does matter for one of them to pop is where you are training to sell. Let's say you end up training scoring, even if Zabawa only gets trained to a low solid - say, 7.1-7.3 range - the amount of money he'll fetch you in the auction market will drastically jump even though he's only improved slightly - say, from his previous 6.7-6.9 range.

I know you already know these information - hey, I don't read the Nox dynasty for nothing . . . well, y'know, a teensy bit of scouting ahead for FOFC Cup - but was just hoping to clear up what seems like a bit of confusion and misunderstanding.

Acknowledged...but to me (especially in my league) that few bits more may actually help...my may training is playmaking, but I felt that at least getting all my starters to their next level before sitting on one training aspect would be best...Saphou going to solid, Noe and Sousa to excellent, Zabawa and Grewar at solid...then, I can spend my days concentrating on the next crop of middies...

It sounds like it is better to stick with playmaking, but I think I'm going to against that judgement and chance the next few weeks at seeing if my starters will bump up a level.

And I cannot wait to battle you in the cup...

[lytic]

Originally posted by daedalus

Nopers, only those that are playing the appropriate positions will be improving in the skill you are training. For a list of who gets trained, check out the list under "Training" in the "Rules".

That is incorrect...

[daedalus]

Originally posted by lytic
That is incorrect...

Which part is?

[daedalus]

Originally posted by Qwikshot
Acknowledged...but to me (especially in my league) that few bits more may actually help...my may training is playmaking, but I felt that at least getting all my starters to their next level before sitting on one training aspect would be best...Saphou going to solid, Noe and Sousa to excellent, Zabawa and Grewar at solid...then, I can spend my days concentrating on the next crop of middies...

Well, as far as I can tell, you are training these players for the Nox. Obviously, in that situation every little bit helps. I can even use my own team as an example, my midfielder McMullen has been solid since last season. During this time, he's gone from being a 2-stars to a fairly consistent 2 1/2-stars player with no change in rating [still solid]. Who knows if that 2 weeks you spend training scoring won't be what's needed to nudge Zabawa and Grewar into the 2 1/2- or 3-stars? I guess my only point is to not be careful about being too caught up with the visible rating. Their performance will give you a far better idea of whether or not you've trained them to that next plateau of performance. [Obviously gotta keep an eye on form and all that, of course.]

It sounds like it is better to stick with playmaking, but I think I'm going to against that judgement and chance the next few weeks at seeing if my starters will bump up a level.

The accepted wisdom seems to say so. And, in the long run, sticking to one training plan [a la DK or ardent] is probably more productive. But, uhhh, that's where the fun is, isn't it? To be able to do what you like and see if it works. For the record, I do switch up my training to where I feel like my team needs. I even train [don't tell anyone, though] passing and general.

And I cannot wait to battle you in the cup...

Go Group K! :)

[vex]

Edit: Nevermind. What are you talking about anyways, lytic?

[Qwikshot]

Exactly! The game is about numbers, and even a .1 could enhance your chances...why invest in a top tier midfield if you can't get your forwards to put the ball in the net?!?

Grewar is at solid form, he tends to stick around there.
Zabawa sticks around inadequate, so he may be better off reaching solid and selling.
I know Choochai is probably far from ever bumping...

I'm not so much into the whole stars thing (Stars are bad people) but if two solids (even low solids) enhance my central attack (because my wingers are passable but low on the playmaking side) then I can be more confident in using my tactic...

I know I'm not going to be promoted this year, I am fighting against relegation (I know I know I've harped on how tough my division is, but it is) so the goal is to maintain stability within the division first, THEN enhance my midfield through training. My series seems high on the defensive end, I probably should've invested in a young solid scorer at the beginning and trained him up to excellent...hindsight 20/20.

The whole purpose of this thread was in effect finding out how close my starters were to popping (I thought a few were one to two weeks close).

What I've found out is that a high passable/ low solid (as long as form remains constant) are really no different from each other (just a few minute points) and that in reality it seems more prudent to stick with what you got, train in one specific area and sell off for profit.

Needless to say, I'm still training scoring this week...next week will be defense (if one or both pop in scoring), then concentrate on goalie...then I'll figure out whether to train playmaking or winger...

Can anyone believe were almost at the halfway mark already?!?

[The Afoci]

but why waste time training something else, train a middie to brillant or something, sell him for a couple mill and buy your upgrades, it is better than trying to train everything a little at a time. At least that is how I see it.

[Qwikshot]

Originally posted by The Afoci
but why waste time training something else, train a middie to brillant or something, sell him for a couple mill and buy your upgrades, it is better than trying to train everything a little at a time. At least that is how I see it.

Because knowing me and my market addiction, I'll spend it all on turkeys.

[condors]

Qwikshot-if your battling regulation this may help - i got put into div iV with a new team against all humans guys and had less than 1 season to avoid the drop and did just barely, i still may get the drop this season but i got myself a solid keeper defenders and a scorer and play a 4-5-1 and every few games i get a win that i have no right to having if your going to train forwards use a 3-4-3 formation if you doing defense 5-4-1 or 5-3-2 i know 3-5-2 is popular but i tend to concede too many goals.

i am hoping to stay up and be a "mainstay" in the divsion for the next several seasons.

[The Afoci]

Originally posted by Qwikshot
Because knowing me and my market addiction, I'll spend it all on turkeys.

good point.

[Qwikshot]

There is hope that I can turn these guys within a week.

In the scoring dept...

23. Thomas Johansson 83 000 US$ (FC Kamollar)
Belongs to: gregs guys
Age: 19 years
Value: 32 000 US$
Deadline: 5/10/2003 at 00:49
Stamina: poor Keeper: disastrous
Playmaking: poor Passing: poor
Winger: weak Defending: poor
Scoring: solid Set Pieces: poor

In the defense...

Mats Lintorp 450 000 US$ (opening price)
Belongs to: grevbos
Age: 18 years
Value: 85 000 US$
Deadline: 5/8/2003 at 07:07
Stamina: wretched Keeper: disastrous
Playmaking: wretched Passing: weak
Winger: wretched Defending: excellent
Scoring: poor Set Pieces: weak

Goalkeeper

10. Shane Salter 200 000 US$ (opening price)
Belongs to: Minute Men
Age: 28 years
Value: 230 000 US$
Deadline: 5/9/2003 at 21:47
Stamina: excellent Keeper: solid
Playmaking: wretched Passing: disastrous
Winger: disastrous Defending: disastrous
Scoring: disastrous Set Pieces: poor

I have hope...btw has anyone ever had a player go up two spots?!? I have read of this on other boards...

Please note I own none of these players, I just found players that relate closely to my own starters and see that there is a chance that I could bump my players because they are nearly within salary range

btw that solid scorer is a steal, wish I had cash

[lytic]

I'm talking about this... and you will notice it once you've played a while (and you have HAM to notice the change).

ALL PLAYERS GET TRAINING IN THE AREA THAT YOU ARE TRAINING!!! If you don't want to ake my word for it, ask GM-apoc.

You are training playmaking, your defenders and forwards get a little playmaking training (very very little). You middies get 1 training value. The other players get like .05, so it would take like 20 weeks to get that one week value of training for your non middie trainers.

If you guys are still confused, let me know. I'll try to explain it a different way...

[Qwikshot]

Originally posted by lytic
I'm talking about this... and you will notice it once you've played a while (and you have HAM to notice the change).

ALL PLAYERS GET TRAINING IN THE AREA THAT YOU ARE TRAINING!!! If you don't want to ake my word for it, ask GM-apoc.

You are training playmaking, your defenders and forwards get a little playmaking training (very very little). You middies get 1 training value. The other players get like .05, so it would take like 20 weeks to get that one week value of training for your non middie trainers.

If you guys are still confused, let me know. I'll try to explain it a different way...

Actually I've changed training to scoring in hopes of getting my forwards to bump to solid...

If one of them bumps, then I'll train defense...etc...till I'm satisfied with the results...then back to midfield...

I am quite aware that if I want to train playmaking that it will only really benefit my inner mids, then my wingers (half the effect)...but my goal is to bump up my starters to their next level since they're so close to bumping...this followed a debate of whether or not it was worth doing so because a solid form high passable shouldn't really be much different than a solid form low solid...etc...

I think someone else questioned about other players skills going up even if you are training something else...that wasn't me...thanks for your input though, and hope you win today.

[lytic]

yeah that was for daedalus... I was just using PM as an example since I used defending last time (next time I'll do scoring).

[Qwikshot]

Bartlomiej Zabawa
55 000 US$, 19 years, passable form
Has disastrous experience and inadequate leadership abilities [Unpredictable]

Stamina: inadequate Keeper: disastrous
Playmaking: poor Passing: weak
Winger: poor Defending: poor
Scoring: solid Set Pieces: weak


Dreams really can come true...!!!

Defense training next!!!

[Qwikshot]

I figure Grewar is a week or two away, nevertheless, I'll move on to boost Sousa and Noe now...then onto Saphou the goalie...hopefully by then, I'll have some youth pulls worth keeping...

Thanks for all your input.