Playcalling - Defense looked familiar with that play? [Archive]

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Nogram

01-11-2007, 11:43 PM

For those play callers out there, I would like to have a discussion on " Defense looked familiar with that play"

I found this thread in the archives, but I don't think it plays out the situation fully enough.

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=34730&highlight=familiar

The reason I have an issue with this is that I call all my own plays, and no matter what I get the " Defense looked familiar with that play" message a lot.
I will get the message on the first time a call a play. I will get it the first time I run a play from a formation. I will get it after calling the same play the 5th time. My point is that I have NO IDEA what causes this message to pop up.

I find I VERY RARELY get this message on running plays, it is almost always on passing plays. It will happen even when I have had 50 run plays in a game and I only have 25 passes.

One thing I do with my teams is run a fairly basic offense, mostly using I-Formation, Pro, Strong, and Weak formations. I will mix in some Slot WR formations, and some single back as well, but mostly use base offenses.

I find that I can't run more than about 20 passes without running into this message. The concept of running a pass oriented offense seems impossible to me, where one would have 40+ passes a game.

My thoughts on this topic are as follows.....

There are groups of plays, and you can only run the group of plays so often before getting this message. Further:

1. Receiver doesn't matter, i.e. if you pass to your TE, RB, and FB 3 times each with a medium pass, if you toss a pass to your SE you are as likely to get this message as if you passed again to your TE.

2. Some of the formations are linked. As with the reciever thought, if you throw a medium pass out of I-Formation, Pro, or Weak, they are considered to be in the same 'group'.

What are your thoughts?

My goal here is to be able to develop a game plan that excludes the " Defense looked familiar with that play" message.....

(If Jim sees this, I would SURE appreciate a comment on how this dynamic works a bit.... My goal is to run a balanced offense, and right now that seems impossible.)

Nogram.

Dutch

01-12-2007, 01:49 AM

I really need to start a career using play-calling mode, I think there is a lot you can gain from this. BTW - I hope this does get fleshed out more.

Narcizo

01-12-2007, 04:16 AM

Haven't really test in 2007 but the way to avoid this in 2004 is to try and spread the number of plays evenly between all formations you can use. I don't know but I guess that there might be a tendency to use certain formations more than others without even realising it when you call your own plays. Ideally if your quarterback knows, say, 12 formations and you call 60 plays in a game, then you want to use one formation no more than 8-10 times.

I think defences know your play-calling/formation tendencies over a season as well, which would explain why you might get the message the first time you try it in a game.

gstelmack

01-12-2007, 09:09 AM

Watching every game play out in my multiplayer league, using the same offensive gameplan, I clearly see this far more often in some games than others. I'm beginning to think a fair chunk of this is your coach's offensive / defensive playcalling vs. the other coach's offensive / defensive playcalling. I get it less when I have a coach good at offensive playcalling, and more when I'm up against a coach with good defensive playcalling.

Or so it seems....

Nogram

01-12-2007, 09:35 AM

I too looked at this, but I was not able to draw any conclusions.

One game I thought that I got this message very early in the game (about 18 passes in), keeping in mind that I NEVER call the same play twice, and I was fairly spread out in the formations I used. I proceeded to check the opposing coach's defensive play calling, expecting it to be excellent, however, it was only good. I never thought to check my coach's play calling.

I wonder if you call all your own plays, if your coach's offensive play calling skill would still play a role in this....

Nogram.

Nogram

01-12-2007, 09:37 AM

One other quick note on this,

Has anyone else noticed that once you get this message once, it appears that it is all over for you.... It is to the point that once I get this message I have to go to a run only offense. No matter the play I call, the formation I am using, the down / yards to go, nothing matters, I will VERY OFTEN get the message again on the next pass.

Nogram

02-03-2007, 11:05 PM

I am still struggling with this. I thought that I had some things figured out, I THOUGHT that it was the 13th play of each length (Sh / Med / Long), but I have determined that this is not the case.

Right now I am trying to a set that uses the following:

I Form

Short - 2
Medium - 1
Long - 2

I Slot

S - 2
M - 1
L - 2

Weak

S - 2
M - 1
L - 2

Strong

S - 2
M - 1
L - 2

Single

S - 2
M - 4
L - 2

Single - Trips

S - 2
M - 4
L - 2

The last two games I have gotten the Message after 23 and 22 passes....

Game 1 was after 8 Short, 5 Medium, and 10 Long Passes (on the 10th long pass I got the message)

Game 2 was after 8 Short, 6 Medium and 8 Long Passes (on the 6th Medium pass I got the message)

*** Noteworthy is that in both these games I had run over 30 running plays before getting these messages. So it is not like I was running a pass only attack, if anything it was a run-heavy attack, and I NEVER got these messages on running plays.***

----------------------------------

I am going to continue experimenting, only using one length of pass I think is my next experiment. And seeing on what Pass I get the message.....

Any suggestions on tests that can be run to flesh this out more?

AGAIN, JIM IF YOU SEE THIS, any advice would be appreciated. I don't think that this is an exploit, if anything it is something that would allow the play calling aspect to be enjoyable.

Right now I have no idea how, if playcalling you can run a pass oriented attack....

Nogram

Nogram

02-03-2007, 11:28 PM

Ok, I just ran a quick experiment....

Using only one pass length but mixing it up between the formations and by target position, I got the message on the following plays....

Short - 19th pass

Med - 33rd pass

Long - 21st pass

Nogram

02-03-2007, 11:32 PM

Another Test....

Used 4 plays only....

First Play Short Pass to TE in I Form (7 yard pass) - Got Message on 14th time running the play

switched to RB Medium pass on Single Back set (11 yard pass) - Got Message on 12th time running the play

switched to SE Long pass on I, Slot WR set (25 yard pass) - Got Message on 3rd time running the play

switched to SE Long pass on Pro set (25 yard pass) - Got Message on second time running the play

gstelmack

02-04-2007, 08:54 AM

Did you see my note about coach playcalling abilities? Have you compared the coaches in these tests?

Nogram

02-04-2007, 09:54 AM

Game 1 was after 8 Short, 5 Medium, and 10 Long Passes (on the 10th long pass I got the message) --- Opponent was TB - Coach was Average for Def Playcalling, Def Coordinator was Excellent with Secondary.

Game 2 was after 8 Short, 6 Medium and 8 Long Passes (on the 6th Medium pass I got the message) --- Opponent was NO - Coach was Average for Def Playcalling, Def Coordinator was Excellent with Secondary.

-------------

Looks like the coach may be less important here than the Def Coordinator, and potentially their Secondary rating....

Nogram

Nogram

02-04-2007, 11:55 AM

gstelmack

02-04-2007, 02:12 PM

What about YOUR coach? You need to compare playcalling abilities between their coach and yours.

adubroff

02-05-2007, 02:43 PM

Ok Next Game....

St. Louis

Def Coord - Good @ Secondary

Head Coach - Very Good @ Def Playcalling

Got the message on the 24th Pass, 10 Short, 7 Medium, 7 Long (Got it on the 7th Medium Pass)

Formations Used to that point - I Form (S-2, M-1, L-1), I Slot (S-2, M-1, L-1), Weak (S-2, M-1, L-2), Strong (S-2, M-1, L-1), Single (S-2, M-3, L-2).

These passes were farily balanced between RB / TE / WR

I think that this sheds some light on it not being tied to the Def Coordinator.

-----------------

This is getting very frustrating!

Can we come up with a list of variable factors that might influence this, that way we can rule out or work with various factors.

1. The actual play
2. The defensive coaching (both head coach playcalling, and the coordinator's skills)
3. The formations used
4. The players targeted

Nogram

I will try next to only pass out of each formation no more than 4 times and see what happens.

I think "play type" is also a factor. For example, if you run reverses a lot, you will rarely hit more than 1 or 2 a game, even if they are run in different formations/sides/by different receivers. I think the more complicated/rare a play is, the more likely the defense is to be suprised by it the first time and the more likely the play is to become familiar to the defense the second time around. I also think that on the passing side of things that you probably need to break the passes up more by distances than you have (probably screen/short/medium/long/deep). I wouldn't be totally suprised if the defenses are attuned to patterns as well (too many crossing patterns, better mix in an out).

Nogram

02-09-2007, 09:01 PM

Here is a game I just played....

COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY ABSURD! This is making the game almost unplayable for me.... 13th pass of the game

<table bgcolor="#ffcc00" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="98%"><tbody><tr><td align="left">Played in San Diego, CA, weather: 60 degrees, fair, 1 mph wind.</td></tr><tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#fee9bc">San Diego won the toss and elected to receive.</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#000066">Start of first quarter.</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#dfdfdf"> (1Q: 15:00) Jimmie Hines kicked off 70 yards from the SFO30. Jermaine Webber returned the ball 12 yards to the SDO12. Tackled by Lorenzo Douglas. PENALTY: San Diego was called for Holding on the Kick Return.</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#fee9bc">San Diego: Pro formation, strength is right. The defense is in a 43 and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the pass.
1-10-SDO04 (1Q: 14:23) LaDainian Tomlinson ran inside the right tackle for 9 yards. Tackled by DT Juan Burke. Key block delivered by Nick Hardwick. </td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#fee9bc">San Diego: Pro formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the pass.
2-1-SDO13 (1Q: 14:14) LaDainian Tomlinson ran around the left tackle for 7 yards. Tackled by DT Juan Burke, assisted by OLB Manny Lawson. Key block delivered by Matt Birk. </td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#fee9bc">San Diego: I formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the pass.
1-10-SDO20 (1Q: 13:29) LaDainian Tomlinson ran around the left tackle for -2 yards and was forced out of bounds. Tackled by OLB Manny Lawson, assisted by CB Steve Blair. </td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#fee9bc">San Diego: Single-Back formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 with nickel personnel and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the pass.
2-12-SDO18 (1Q: 12:53) LaDainian Tomlinson ran inside the left tackle for 8 yards. Tackled by CB Chris Logan, assisted by S Keith Lewis. Key block delivered by Shaun Cassidy. </td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#fee9bc">San Diego: Single-Back formation, strength is right. The defense is in a 43 with nickel personnel and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the pass.
3-4-SDO26 (1Q: 12:27) Philip Rivers scrambled for 8 yards. Tackled by OLB Manny Lawson.</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#fee9bc">San Diego: I formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the pass.
1-10-SDO34 (1Q: 11:53) PENALTY: San Diego was called for a False Start.</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#fee9bc">San Diego: Pro formation, with the second receiver in the slot, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the pass.
1-15-SDO29 (1Q: 11:25) Philip Rivers sacked by DE Benny Wheeler and DE Melvin Oliver for a loss of 2 yards. Sack allowed by Shaun Cassidy. The ball was fumbled and recovered by SDO Shaun Cassidy on the SDO27.</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#fee9bc">San Diego: Single-Back formation, strength is right. The defense is in a 43 with nickel personnel and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the pass.
2-17-SDO27 (1Q: 11:18) Philip Rivers pass completed to WR Jermaine Webber for 6 yards. Tackled by OLB Parys Haralson.</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#fee9bc">San Diego: Single-Back formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 with dime personnel and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the pass.
3-11-SDO33 (1Q: 10:53) Philip Rivers pass completed to WR Jermaine Webber for 14 yards. The receiver went out of bounds. Tackled by S Keith Lewis, assisted by CB Steve Blair. The receiver ran his route right over the middle of the field.</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#fee9bc">San Diego: I formation, strength is right. The defense is in a 43 and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the pass.
1-10-SDO47 (1Q: 10:27) LaDainian Tomlinson ran inside the left guard for 2 yards. Tackled by OLB Parys Haralson. </td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#fee9bc">San Diego: I formation, strength is right. The defense is in a 43 and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the pass.
2-8-SDO49 (1Q: 09:49) Philip Rivers scrambled for 7 yards. Tackled by ILB Jeff Ulbrich.</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#fee9bc">San Diego: I formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the pass.
3-1-SFO44 (1Q: 09:01) Philip Rivers pass completed to RB LaDainian Tomlinson for 2 yards. Tackled by OLB Manny Lawson, assisted by ILB Jeff Ulbrich. Tomlinson gained 1 yard after the catch.</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#fee9bc">San Diego: Strong formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the pass.
1-10-SFO42 (1Q: 08:22) LaDainian Tomlinson ran around the left tackle for 0 yards. Tackled by DT Juan Burke. </td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#fee9bc">San Diego: I formation, strength is right. The defense is in a 43 and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the pass.
2-10-SFO42 (1Q: 07:39) LaDainian Tomlinson ran inside the left guard for -1 yards. Tackled by DT Stephen Bunyan. </td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#fee9bc">San Diego: Pro formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 with nickel personnel and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the pass.
3-11-SFO43 (1Q: 07:05) Philip Rivers scrambled for 4 yards. Tackled by OLB Manny Lawson.</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#fee9bc">4-7-SFO39 (1Q: 06:30) Mike Scifres punted 38 yards. The ball was downed at the SFO01. PENALTY: San Diego was called for an Ineligible Man Downfield on the Punt.</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#fee9bc">4-12-SFO44 (1Q: 05:46) Mike Scifres punted 44 yards. Touchback.</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">San Francisco: I formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 34 and weak-side man, otherwise cover-7 zone coverage, keying aggressively on the run.
1-10-SFO20 (1Q: 05:41) Alex Smith scrambled for 12 yards. Tackled by OLB Shawne Merriman.</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">San Francisco: I formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 34 and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, expecting the run.
1-10-SFO32 (1Q: 05:36) Michael Robinson ran around left end for 9 yards. Tackled by ILB Gary Brackett. Key block delivered by Artie Banks. </td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">San Francisco: I formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 34 with goal-line personnel and 1-deep, man-to-man coverage, keying aggressively on the run.
2-1-SFO41 (1Q: 05:00) Michael Robinson ran around the left tackle for 2 yards. Tackled by DE Jerry Shelton, assisted by CB Antonio Cromartie. Key block delivered by Artie Banks. </td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">San Francisco: I formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 34 and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, expecting the run.
1-10-SFO43 (1Q: 04:36) Alex Smith pass fell incomplete, intended for FB Martin Beyer. OLB Shawne Merriman defended the pass.</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">San Francisco: I formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 34 and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, expecting the pass.
2-10-SFO43 (1Q: 04:03) Alex Smith sacked by DE Jerry Shelton for a loss of 13 yards. Sack allowed by Adam Snyder.</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">San Francisco: I formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 34 and 2-deep man-to-man coverage, expecting the pass.
3-23-SFO30 (1Q: 03:54) Alex Smith pass completed to TE Vernon Davis for 24 yards. Tackled by CB Antonio Cromartie. The receiver ran his route right over the middle of the field. Davis gained 5 yards after the catch.</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">San Francisco: I formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 34 and 4-deep zone coverage, expecting the run.
1-10-SDO46 (1Q: 03:11) Alex Smith pass completed to RB Michael Robinson for 8 yards. Tackled by OLB Shaun Phillips. Robinson gained 3 yards after the catch.</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">San Francisco: I formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 34 with goal-line personnel and 1-deep, man-to-man coverage, expecting the run.
2-2-SDO38 (1Q: 02:35) Alex Smith pass completed to WR Reuben Wayne for 8 yards. Tackled by CB Antonio Cromartie. The receiver ran his route right over the middle of the field. Wayne gained 2 yards after the catch.</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">San Francisco: I formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 34 and 3-deep zone coverage, expecting the pass.
1-10-SDO30 (1Q: 01:48) Michael Robinson ran a trap outside the left tackle for -1 yards. Tackled by ILB Tim Dobbins, assisted by DE Jerry Shelton. </td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">San Francisco: I formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 34 and 3-deep zone coverage, keying aggressively on the pass.
2-11-SDO31 (1Q: 01:20) Michael Robinson ran inside the left tackle for -1 yards. Tackled by DE Damon Rice. </td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">San Francisco: I formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 34 and 4-deep zone coverage, expecting the pass. Merriman is blitzing.
3-12-SDO32 (1Q: 00:42) Alex Smith pass completed to FB Martin Beyer for 14 yards. Tackled by CB Quentin Jammer. The receiver ran his route right over the middle of the field. Beyer gained 3 yards after the catch.</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#000066">Start of second quarter.</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">San Francisco: I formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 34 and 2-deep man-to-man coverage, expecting the run.
1-10-SDO18 (2Q: 15:00) Alex Smith pass fell incomplete, intended for WR Reuben Wayne. DE Luis Castillo drove right through Adam Snyder to hurry the quarterback. PENALTY: San Francisco was called for an Illegal Touch of Forward Pass. The penalty was declined.</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">San Francisco: I formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 34 and 2-deep man-to-man coverage, keying aggressively on the pass.
2-10-SDO18 (2Q: 14:52) Michael Robinson ran around right end for 8 yards. Tackled by ILB Antonio Olpin. Key block delivered by Adam Snyder. </td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">San Francisco: I formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 34 and 2-deep man-to-man coverage, expecting the pass. Cromartie is blitzing.
3-2-SDO10 (2Q: 14:44) Michael Robinson ran inside the left guard for 1 yard. Tackled by ILB Gary Brackett. </td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">San Francisco: Goal-Line formation with three tight ends, strength is left. The defense is in a 34 and 2-deep man-to-man coverage, keying aggressively on the pass.
4-1-SDO09 (2Q: 14:01) PENALTY: San Francisco was called for a False Start.</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">4-6-SDO14 (2Q: 13:16) Roger Nikolic attempted a 31 yard field goal and missed wide to the right.</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#fee9bc">San Diego: I formation, strength is right. The defense is in a 43 and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the pass.
1-10-SDO21 (2Q: 13:09) LaDainian Tomlinson ran inside the left guard for -3 yards. Tackled by DT Juan Burke. </td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#fee9bc">San Diego: Single-Back formation, strength is right. The defense is in a 43 with nickel personnel and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the pass.
2-13-SDO18 (2Q: 13:02) Philip Rivers sacked by DE Melvin Oliver for a loss of 5 yards. Sack allowed by Marcus McNeill.</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#fee9bc">San Diego: Pro formation, strength is right. The defense is in a 43 with dime personnel and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the pass.
3-18-SDO13 (2Q: 12:15) Philip Rivers pass completed to WR Eric Parker for 11 yards. Tackled by CB Steve Blair.</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#fee9bc">4-7-SDO24 (2Q: 11:47) Mike Scifres punted 61 yards. Al Plechaty returned the kick 17 yards to the SFO32. Tackled by Hank Fraley.</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">San Francisco: Pro formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 34 and 3-deep zone coverage, expecting the pass.
1-10-SFO32 (2Q: 10:58) Alex Smith pass fell incomplete, intended for TE Vernon Davis. S Terrence Kiel defended the pass. The quarterback threw away from the double coverage.</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">San Francisco: Pro formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 34 and weak-side man, otherwise cover-7 zone coverage, keying aggressively on the pass.
2-10-SFO32 (2Q: 10:51) Alex Smith pass completed to FB Martin Beyer for 4 yards. Tackled by OLB Shawne Merriman, assisted by CB Antonio Cromartie. Beyer gained 5 yards after the catch.</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">San Francisco: Pro formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 34 and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the pass. Merriman is blitzing.
3-6-SFO36 (2Q: 10:45) Alex Smith pass completed to RB Michael Robinson for 3 yards. Tackled by S Terrence Kiel, assisted by S Bhawoh Jue.</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">San Francisco: Pro formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 34 and 2-deep man-to-man coverage, expecting the pass.
4-3-SFO39 (2Q: 10:07) Michael Robinson ran around left end for 6 yards. Tackled by OLB Shaun Phillips, assisted by DE Jerry Shelton. Key block delivered by Adam Snyder. </td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">San Francisco: Pro formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 34 and 2-deep man-to-man coverage, expecting the pass.
1-10-SFO45 (2Q: 09:30) Michael Robinson ran a trap outside the left tackle for 0 yards. Tackled by ILB Gary Brackett, assisted by DE Paul Spicer. </td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">San Francisco: Pro formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 34 and 3-deep zone coverage, keying aggressively on the pass. Merriman and Cromartie are blitzing.
2-10-SFO45 (2Q: 09:09) Michael Robinson ran inside the left guard for 7 yards. Tackled by ILB Tim Dobbins. </td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">San Francisco: Pro formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 34 and 4-deep zone coverage, expecting the pass. Cody is blitzing.
3-3-SDO48 (2Q: 08:32) Michael Robinson ran around right end for 13 yards. Tackled by DT Jordan Carstens, assisted by S Bhawoh Jue. Key block delivered by Justin Smiley. </td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">San Francisco: Pro formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 34 and 3-deep zone coverage, keying aggressively on the run.
1-10-SDO35 (2Q: 07:49) Alex Smith pass completed to WR Antonio Bryant for 23 yards. Tackled by OLB Shawne Merriman. Bryant gained 4 yards after the catch.</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">San Francisco: Pro formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 34 with goal-line personnel and 1-deep, man-to-man coverage, expecting the run.
1-10-SDO12 (2Q: 07:02) Alex Smith pass completed to TE Vernon Davis for 8 yards. The receiver went out of bounds. Tackled by ILB Gary Brackett. Davis gained 3 yards after the catch.</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">San Francisco: Pro formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 34 and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, expecting the run.
2-2-SDO04 (2Q: 06:35) Alex Smith sacked by DE Paul Spicer and OLB Shaun Phillips for a loss of 5 yards. Sack allowed by David Baas.</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">San Francisco: Pro formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 34 and 3-deep zone coverage, expecting the pass.
3-7-SDO09 (2Q: 05:58) Alex Smith pass completed to WR Antonio Bryant for 3 yards. Tackled by ILB Tim Dobbins, assisted by OLB Shawne Merriman. The receiver ran his route right over the middle of the field. The quarterback threw into double coverage.</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">San Francisco: Goal-Line formation with three tight ends, strength is left. The defense is in a 34 and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, expecting the pass. Brackett is blitzing.
4-4-SDO06 (2Q: 05:27) Michael Robinson ran around left end for 6 yards and a TOUCHDOWN! Key block delivered by Artie Banks. San Francisco 6, San Diego 0</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#dfdfdf"> (2Q: 05:27) Extra point by Roger Nikolic was good. San Francisco 7, San Diego 0</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#dfdfdf"> (2Q: 05:06) Jimmie Hines kicked off 73 yards from the SFO30. Touchback.</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#fee9bc">San Diego: Strong formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the pass.
1-10-SDO20 (2Q: 05:06) Philip Rivers pass completed to FB Stan Kometani for 8 yards. Tackled by OLB Manny Lawson. The receiver ran his route right over the middle of the field.</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#fee9bc">San Diego: Strong formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the pass.
2-2-SDO28 (2Q: 05:01) LaDainian Tomlinson ran inside the left guard for -2 yards. Tackled by ILB Jeff Ulbrich. </td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#fee9bc">San Diego: Single-Back formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 with nickel personnel and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the pass.
3-4-SDO26 (2Q: 04:30) LaDainian Tomlinson ran inside the left guard for 14 yards. Tackled by DT Stephen Bunyan, assisted by DT Juan Burke. Key block delivered by Shaun Cassidy. </td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#fee9bc">San Diego: I formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the pass.
1-10-SDO40 (2Q: 03:51) PENALTY: San Diego was called for a False Start.</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#fee9bc">San Diego: Single-Back formation, strength is right. The defense is in a 43 with nickel personnel and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the pass.
1-15-SDO35 (2Q: 03:12) LaDainian Tomlinson ran inside the left tackle for 7 yards. Tackled by OLB Manny Lawson, assisted by DT Stephen Bunyan. Key block delivered by Antonio Gates. Gates ran over Parys Haralson to open the hole. </td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#fee9bc">San Diego: Single-Back formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 with nickel personnel and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the pass.
2-8-SDO42 (2Q: 03:02) Philip Rivers pass fell incomplete, intended for WR Norm Ciccant. DE Melvin Oliver hurried the quarterback into a bad throw.</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#fee9bc">San Diego: Single-Back formation with trips receivers, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 with dime personnel and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the pass.
3-8-SDO42 (2Q: 02:29) LaDainian Tomlinson ran inside the right guard for 8 yards. Tackled by S C.C. Brown. Key block delivered by Shane Olivea. </td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#fee9bc">San Diego: Pro formation, with the second receiver in the slot, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the pass.
1-10-SDO50 (2Q: 02:20) Philip Rivers pass completed to TE Antonio Gates for 13 yards. Tackled by S Eugene Beitelspacher. Gates gained 4 yards after the catch.</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#000066">Official time out for the two-minute warning.</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#fee9bc">San Diego: Pro formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the pass.
1-10-SFO37 (2Q: 02:00) Philip Rivers pass was blocked at the line, intended for WR Vincent Jackson. DT Juan Burke blocked the pass.</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#fee9bc">San Diego: Single-Back formation with trips receivers, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 with nickel personnel and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the pass.
2-10-SFO37 (2Q: 01:54) Philip Rivers pass was thrown incomplete, intended for WR Norm Ciccant.</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#fee9bc">San Diego: Single-Back formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 with nickel personnel and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the pass.
3-10-SFO37 (2Q: 01:42) Philip Rivers pass fell incomplete, intended for WR Earnest Muhammad. OLB Manny Lawson knocked the ball out of his grasp.</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#fee9bc">4-10-SFO37 (2Q: 01:32) Nate Kaeding attempted a 54 yard field goal and missed wide to the right.</td></tr> <tr><td align="left" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">San Francisco: Pro formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 34 with dime personnel and 2-deep man-to-man coverage, keying aggressively on the pass.
1-10-SFO44 (2Q: 01:26) Alex Smith pass fell incomplete, intended for WR Reuben Wayne. DE Jerry Shelton hurried the quarterback into a bad throw. The defense looked very familiar with that play. The quarterback threw away from the double coverage.</td></tr></tbody></table>

beargrowlz

02-09-2007, 09:10 PM

BYU 14

02-10-2007, 07:31 AM

You are focusing on coaches, but wouldn't the scouting abilities of the other team come into play. They have watched film on you and pick up certain tendencies that way?

A good test might be to track this from the first game of a Season and just limit the test to 6 different plays. Call 2 quite often, 2 a moderate amount and the other 2 rarely and see if that has an effect on Defensive recognition as the Season goes on. The theory being that the opponent has scouted your favorite/best plays and is looking to take them away. If this was the case they should "recognize" your 2 most frequen plays quite often and the others with less frequency.

This would mirror what Coaches do in real life....Worth a shot....

Ben E Lou

02-10-2007, 07:44 AM

The first thing that jumps out at me is that aside from twice when you used a Goalline formation, you only used two formations the entire first half - the I and the Pro.

Perhaps that has something to do with it?Heh.

I haven't had this issue in simming, and have zero interest whatsoever in playcalling, so I haven't read his logs at all. However, if he's only using two formations, that's a huge contributor to the problem. The very reason that formations known is important for QBs is to avoid the defense looking familiar with that play.

MrBigglesworth

05-10-2007, 02:44 PM

I was just watching my GEFL game, and I got a "Defense looked familiar message" on a running play with ten minutes left in the second quarter. It was my 15th run of the game, I didn't put in a run heavy gameplan but I have run 15 times and passed 5, up 7-0. I can't wait to see how this turns out...

Dutch

05-10-2007, 04:35 PM

I think "Defense Looks Familiar With That Play" is based on gameplan %'s vs # of times something was done in game. Basically, I am suggseting a pro-active penalty built-in against the offense vs a reactionary one.

CU Tiger

05-10-2007, 08:17 PM

Also dont forget situational analysis.

It may be your 13th 23rd or 33rd pass.

But is it your 3rd consecutive pass on 2nd and 8-10?

In my experience it seems, situations play very heavily into this stat

Nogram

05-10-2007, 09:01 PM

I have done a TON of testing on this. Here is a link to some of my work on this....

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=56873

To be honest, I am very disappointed that Jim has not offered any guidance on this. He said that he changed the logic in verstion (e), but little information as to how. Also, the help file that he has posted offers no guidance.

I don't know how this works exactly, but it was working based on distance and formation. In version (d) I could pass for the first 30 plays of the game and not get the message but if I tried to mix up the pass and run I would often get it after 20 or so passes, this makes no sense.

I don't do multiplayer, and I consider play calling to be vital to my gaming experience (I don't criticise those that don't do any play calling, people chose to play the game differently, but for me without the play calling I wouldn't play the game). As a result I am currently not playing the game at all. I would appreciate some indication as to how the logic works that triggers this, not exact formulas or anything, just simply the variables that play into this.

I know that this is not how Jim works, but to be honest, I don't see what this would hurt, except reduce the frustration of a certain elemet of the player base.....

Nogram....