Penalty decision - AI getting it wrong...

[MartinD]

I realise that this has been raised before, but noticed this in my MP RealDeal (preseason) game:

4-2-DAL09 (4Q: 02:41) Kris Brown attempted a 26 yard field goal and succeeded. PENALTY: Dallas was called for Offsides. The penalty was declined. Indianapolis 33, Dallas 14

OK, so it's preseason (and the game was well under control in any case), but I know that I'd want to accept the penalty to get the first down so my team could run off a decent chunk of the time remaining...

Martin

[Leonidas]

I've seen several occasions a penalty against the defense on the last play of a half that didn't result in a score get declined in a situation where the team declining the penalty was in a scoring position and could have tried for points with another play. The AI logic on accepting/decling penalties has many problems.

[Synovia]

I've seen several occasions a penalty against the defense on the last play of a half that didn't result in a score get declined in a situation where the team declining the penalty was in a scoring position and could have tried for points with another play. The AI logic on accepting/decling penalties has many problems.

In addition to that, I've seen several plays where the penalty itself is enforced incorrectly.


But yeah, penalty logic is a bit wonky. Any penalty on fourth down (whether its a team kicking a field goal) that leads to a first down should be accepted unless it leads to time running out, or its very very close to running out.

[ace1914]

You're up by 16 with 2 minutes remaining in a preseason game. I don't see the issue. You're mad because they didn't try to rub it in?

[Synovia]

You're up by 16 with 2 minutes remaining in a preseason game. I don't see the issue. You're mad because they didn't try to rub it in?



Hes mad because the CPU made a decision that makes it more likely for him to lose.

If he takes the first down, and just kneels 4 times, the opponent gets the ball back with about 15 seconds left. Theres not enough time for any wackyness, even a 100 yard kick return runs out the clock.

With the way it happened, theres enough time for a kick return followed by an onside kick, which could lead to the possibility of a loss.


It was the wrong decision. The fact that it was preseason is irrelevant.



I've noticed the field goal thing a lot. The AI will always (IME) take a succesful fieldgoal over a penalty that gives a first down, regardless of time or field position.

[Dunleavy]

this is just the tip of the iceberg, the game handling penalties and even more End of Game/Half situations is in MAJOR need of attetion, it doesn't get talked about enough

[ace1914]

Hes mad because the CPU made a decision that makes it more likely for him to lose.

If he takes the first down, and just kneels 4 times, the opponent gets the ball back with about 15 seconds left. Theres not enough time for any wackyness, even a 100 yard kick return runs out the clock.

With the way it happened, theres enough time for a kick return followed by an onside kick, which could lead to the possibility of a loss.


It was the wrong decision. The fact that it was preseason is irrelevant.



I've noticed the field goal thing a lot. The AI will always (IME) take a succesful fieldgoal over a penalty that gives a first down, regardless of time or field position.


I disagree. Its 2:41 left. That means the computer has a two minute warning and 3 timeouts. They're only down by 16 which is 2 scores in say 1:45. Plus there's no guarantee that they make the field goal the next time they try. The 3 points makes it three scores in 2:41 which would also require two onside recoveries. There's nothing wrong with that decision.

[ace1914]

You don't trade a known quantity for an unknown quantity. That's why there are so many divorces. Everybody's got 3 points but tempted by that touchdown.:eek:

[TimL]

You don't trade a known quantity for an unknown quantity. That's why there are so many divorces. Everybody's got 3 points but tempted by that touchdown.:eek:


It has nothing to do with the touchdown, but it has to do with the ability to run more time off the clock and force the opponent to use the time outs.

[ace1914]

It has nothing to do with the touchdown, but it has to do with the ability to run more time off the clock and force the opponent to use the time outs.

And potentially fumble the ball? I'm sorry, but I'll still take 3 scores over 2 scores everytime.

[ace1914]

Isn't there like a cardinal rule or something like: "Never take points off the board." Especially, when you are already winning, the pressure is on them to score not you.

[MartinD]

And potentially fumble the ball? I'm sorry, but I'll still take 3 scores over 2 scores everytime.

The options here:

1) Take the penalty (so 1st and goal at the 5), pound the ball up the middle four times (or even take a knee!) and be either up 23 (TD) and kicking off or up 16 with the opponent inside their own 5, having run the clock down around or past the two-minute warning with the opponent out of timeouts. Even if there is a fumble, the opponent is still pinned back deep in their own end, and you're up by 16 (having knocked off a few timeouts and a bit of clock in the meantime...)

2) Refuse the penalty to be 19 up, but kicking off to the opposition, who still have three timeouts and almost 3 minutes to play with.

Either way, the team is in a good situation, but my feeling is that the probability of losing the game is higher with option 2 - yes, the opposition need to score three times (and probably need three TDs), but there's plenty of time on the clock, and a big kickoff return is always a possibility.

ace - you're entitled to your opinion, but I suspect that you're going to be in the minority on this one. (If I was calling my own plays in this situation, I suspect that the field goal unit would still be on the sidelines for that 4th and 2 - pretty good chance of making the first down if you go for it, and turning it over on downs gives the opponents the ball inside their own 10 needing two TDs and two two-point plays...

Back on topic - I was fairly sure that this sort of thing had been mentioned before, but couldn't find a suitable thread to post to. It does look like this is a part of the code that would benefit from being looked at - not easy to get something that is able to cope with every situation (this one is a bit unusual, in that the points are not really all that much of a big deal compared to the chance to chew up clock), but there are a few pretty strange calls coming through in the game as it is.

Martin

[adubroff]

I would think even in a midgame situation you'd want to take the points off the board here. If you have a 5% chance of turning the ball over on the next three plays and a 5% chance of missing the field goal, you only need to score a TD rougly 1 in ten to make this a winning choice...and that's assuming no value to the leaving the opponent inside the ten if you fumble or miss the FG the second time around.

In a late game situation, you can probably get the opponent down 30 seconds if you snap it three times and then make the FG the second time. If you assume that 95% of the time you can avoid fumbling or missing the chipshot, then you probably should take the ball back and run the clock. I think fumbling on third down would still be better than the field goal to be honest(1:15 on the clock).

[wthomp]

Does the coaches offensive play calling ability come into play here?

[Yoda]

I'd have to agree here. You are up 16, with 2+ minutes left. Take the penalty and the 1st down and run time off the clock.

[Ben E Lou]

As for the original post about this particular case, I have a hard time faulting the AI for making the decision, when humans here disagree.

Add me to the "make 'em recover TWO onside kicks" crowd, by the way.

[MartinD]

As for the original post about this particular case, I have a hard time faulting the AI for making the decision, when humans here disagree.

Add me to the "make 'em recover TWO onside kicks" crowd, by the way.

It would be a boring forum if everybody agreed about every single subject... ;)

I do see your point, though - is difficult to code an AI to correctly make a decision that isn't totally clearcut. Taking a fresh look at this situation, it seems to me to come down to how you want to treat the situation - play to win (by taking the penalty and first down) or play not to lose (by accepting the field goal and making it a three-score game). (Just my opinion, of course - feel free to disagree :) )

Martin

[ace1914]

As for the original post about this particular case, I have a hard time faulting the AI for making the decision, when humans here disagree.

Add me to the "make 'em recover TWO onside kicks" crowd, by the way.


LOL. Skydog posts that he agrees with the minority and now...we see the point. :)

[Vinatieri for Prez]

That's about as dumb as being in the Front Office Bowl, and passing on a 48-yard FG when leading by only 4 points in a very low scoring game to instead try and convert a 4th and 13 by throwing a 30-yard pass to the end zone to your number 4 WR. That happened in my game and I was livid. What a bunch of crap! :)

Sometimes, coaches make mistakes, even in FOF.

[Leonidas]

I agree that the case presented to start this thread is really a philosophical one and not a gameflaw, however there are enough true gameflaws in penalty decisions to make the case that Jim needs to make changes.

On top of declining defensive penalties at the end of a half while in FG position, there's also other issues with coaching decisions inside the 2-minute warning. Like why with around 40 seconds left in the half and a team with the ball at midfield and driving is the defense calling timeouts? I see this all the time and it drives me nuts when I'm the team on defense.

[Synovia]

You don't trade a known quantity for an unknown quantity. That's why there are so many divorces. Everybody's got 3 points but tempted by that touchdown.:eek:


You do that every single play of every single game.


Theres an easy way to figure out whats the correct decision. Run the probabilities. I guarantee that the percentage that you win the game is higher if you take the first down and run three times than if you kick the field goal. The time is a bigger factor than the points at that point in the game.

[dberner30]

im surprised this is even a discussion. you take the penalty and continue the drive. eating clock and having a TD oppty are the key factors. The AI is hosed on penalty logic and end of half/end of game. Frankly penalty calls are hosed up in this game. I would say penalties are the number 1 item for review and revision. First the penalties the game calls are not logical part of the time. The game doesnt know when to accept and when to decline. The decision making needs work. The way the dice roll system is set up it isnt taking into consideration the situation when the penalty call is made and then again fails to fully consider the situation upon declining/accepting.

i leave you with Brian Westbrook flopping on the ground at the one yd line and giving up 7 points to keep the ball for more downs to run out the clock. this is game winning logic. and amazingly the player made a smart call on the spur of the moment. im sure a coach when faced with a penalty and time to decide can figure this one out. Even a bad coach.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

I knew you'd show up in this thread. :)

[TimG]

<TABLE cellSpacing=1 width="98%" bgColor=#ffcc00 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left bgColor=#dedfed>3-10-IND45 (4Q: 00:11) Tom Brady pass completed to WR Donte' Stallworth for 14 yards. Tackled by S Tony Dixon, assisted by CB Marlin Jackson. PENALTY: Indianapolis was called for Illegal Contact.</TD></TR><TR><TD align=left bgColor=#dedfed>1-10-IND40 (4Q: 00:06) Stephen Gostkowski attempted a 57 yard field goal and it was blocked by Robert Mathis. IND Daymeion Hughes recovered the ball at the IND47.</TD></TR><TR><TD align=left bgColor=#ffcc00>Final Score: Indianapolis Colts 27, New England Patriots 24</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

This was a Confrence final. I had 2 time outs left. My team took a 5 yard penalty to kick a 57 yd FG instead of taking a 14 yd completion that would have been a 46 yd FG. I was not a happy camper. What a way to lose.

[dberner30]

I knew you'd show up in this thread. :)

you know it bro...gotta show up every so often to offset the Kool-Aid drinking crowd that tries to explain away the serious flaws as "no big deal".

and the logic applied to that FG penalty is classic...another one i had that worked in my favor was the other team kicked off and I fumbled the ball. I had an offsides penalty that gave them the choice to kick again or not...they chose to give the ball back to me and re-kick when they should have taken the result of the play and kept my fumble..i have also seen punt situations where the penalty is not taken that would have ended up in a 1st down for the punting team...that was in 2004 and i havent seen that one lately...it might have been fixed finally.

[ace1914]

you know it bro...gotta show up every so often to offset the Kool-Aid drinking crowd that tries to explain away the serious flaws as "no big deal".

and the logic applied to that FG penalty is classic...another one i had that worked in my favor was the other team kicked off and I fumbled the ball. I had an offsides penalty that gave them the choice to kick again or not...they chose to give the ball back to me and re-kick when they should have taken the result of the play and kept my fumble..i have also seen punt situations where the penalty is not taken that would have ended up in a 1st down for the punting team...that was in 2004 and i havent seen that one lately...it might have been fixed finally.

To offset? I'm definitely not a "Kool-Aid" drinker, nor do I like the reference. But that's neither here nor there. Whether you agree or not, the decision is not "wrong." Its not what you or others would do, which as someone stated earlier, is simply a philosophy issue.

You nor I can argue about something that happened in the 2004 version. Me since I never owned it, and you since this is the 2007 version with like 3 patches already. Why would you bring an issue about an outdated version that you admittedly "haven't seen lately" anyway? Stay in present time.

[Passacaglia]

Isn't there like a cardinal rule or something like: "Never take points off the board." Especially, when you are already winning, the pressure is on them to score not you.

That's a bad rule of thumb. You're telling me you'd honestly have 3 points, instead of 1st and goal at the 5?

[dberner30]

You nor I can argue about something that happened in the 2004 version. Me since I never owned it, and you since this is the 2007 version with like 3 patches already. Why would you bring an issue about an outdated version that you admittedly "haven't seen lately" anyway? Stay in present time.

Because my memory on that one is vague and it may not be a recent example. If it was something that was recent (or in the alternative still happening) then someone else will be reminded and post as well. That actually is more than likely a positive statement that Jim appears to have fixed a flaw.

And I would hope that we are discussing and not arguing. I might have missed something in the various threads (or forgotten) but i dont recall penalty logic being something that was specifically referenced as a patched item.

[larrymcg421]

I'd definitely kick the FG in this situation. Forcing them to use their timeouts isn't as valuable as making it a 3 possession game. Lots of things can go wrong in the next few plays - fumbled snap, missed FG, blocked FG, etc. All of those are unlikely, but I think more probable than two onside kick returns, two TD's with 2pt. conversions both times and a FG.

As a famous FOFC poster might say:

"If you give up that many onside kick in row, then maybe FOF not game for you."

[EagleFan]

Bringing up Westbrook in this thread is apples and oranges. On the Westbrook play when he stopped at the one the other team had no timeouts left and the Eagles were able to run the clock out by kneeling down. In this situation it's not like taking the penalty means garanteeing that you don;t give the ball back to the other team.

Now, if Westbrook did that with 2:45 left and the other team with all of their timeouts it would be a different story all together and he would be wrong in doing so instead of scoring.

[dberner30]

Bringing up Westbrook in this thread is apples and oranges.

That hurts. It pained me greatly to bring up Westbrook and that situation. Now i get this. Where's the love? :D