Defense-minded FOF experiment

[revrew]

Dropping a note here to let you know I've started a new experiment dynasty focusing on defense.

Truth be told, I've always been better at building defense than offense, so now I'm really putting it to the test.

Check out the dynasty thread Defense Wins Championships - Front Office Football Central (http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?p=2852360#post2852360)

And add a comment there to let me know if anyone is interested in reading/following along. The dynasty threads have really dropped off in the last 5-10 years, and I'd like to know if it's worth it to still post there.

[revrew]

Never a better time to check out the dynasty than now, as the championship-winning Gandalf defense has, for the first time, been made public.

See the details on the defense that won league titles in the GEFL and IHOF!

[aston217]

I absolutely love the name.

http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/64/6429/6XR9100Z/posters/you-shall-not-pass-sign-movie-poster.jpg

Wouldn't mind going up against that defense some day, just to see what I can do against it :P

[Ben E Lou]

Wouldn't mind going up against that defense some day, just to see what I can do against it :PMy experience was that it doesn't do particularly well against good offenses unless the QB is injured and being replaced by a 38/38 guy. ;)

<table bgcolor="#EDEDED" border="1" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="2" width="887"><tbody><tr><td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td><center> 2030</center></td> <td><center>20</center></td> <td><center>http://108.59.255.76/%7Ebenelou/ihof/ben/slivers/helmet3.png (http://108.59.255.76/%7Ebenelou/ihof/ben/teampage.php?teamid=3)</center></td> <td><center>30-0</center></td> <td><center>64,100</center></td> <td><center>BOX (http://108.59.255.76/%7Ebenelou/ihof/ben/boxscore.php?year=2030&week=25&away=2&home=3)</center></td> <td><center>LOG (http://www.gstelmack.com/woof/html/log2030240203.html)</center></td> </tr> <tr> <td><center> 2031</center></td> <td><center>7</center></td> <td><center>http://108.59.255.76/%7Ebenelou/ihof/ben/slivers/helmet3.png (http://108.59.255.76/%7Ebenelou/ihof/ben/teampage.php?teamid=3)</center></td> <td><center>41-38</center></td> <td><center>66,300</center></td> <td><center>BOX (http://108.59.255.76/%7Ebenelou/ihof/ben/boxscore.php?year=2031&week=12&away=3&home=2)</center></td> <td><center>LOG (http://www.gstelmack.com/woof/html/log2031110302.html)</center></td> </tr> <tr> <td><center> 2032</center></td> <td><center>20</center></td> <td><center>http://108.59.255.76/%7Ebenelou/ihof/ben/slivers/helmet3.png (http://108.59.255.76/%7Ebenelou/ihof/ben/teampage.php?teamid=3)</center></td> <td><center>44-17</center></td> <td><center>80,200</center></td> <td><center>BOX (http://108.59.255.76/%7Ebenelou/ihof/ben/boxscore.php?year=2032&week=25&away=2&home=3)</center></td> <td><center>LOG (http://www.gstelmack.com/woof/html/log2032240203.html)</center></td> </tr> <tr> <td><center> 2033</center></td> <td><center>13</center></td> <td><center>http://108.59.255.76/%7Ebenelou/ihof/ben/slivers/helmet3.png (http://108.59.255.76/%7Ebenelou/ihof/ben/teampage.php?teamid=3)</center></td> <td><center>24-17</center></td> <td><center>66,000</center></td> <td><center>BOX (http://108.59.255.76/%7Ebenelou/ihof/ben/boxscore.php?year=2033&week=18&away=3&home=2)</center></td> <td><center>LOG (http://www.gstelmack.com/woof/html/log2033170302.html)</center></td> </tr> <tr> <td><center> 2034</center></td> <td><center>7</center></td> <td><center>http://108.59.255.76/%7Ebenelou/ihof/ben/slivers/helmet3.png (http://108.59.255.76/%7Ebenelou/ihof/ben/teampage.php?teamid=3)</center></td> <td><center>45-38</center></td> <td><center>65,500</center></td> <td><center>BOX (http://108.59.255.76/%7Ebenelou/ihof/ben/boxscore.php?year=2034&week=12&away=3&home=2)</center></td> <td><center>LOG (http://www.gstelmack.com/woof/html/log2034110302.html)</center></td> </tr> <tr> <td><center> 2034</center></td> <td><center>19</center></td> <td><center>http://108.59.255.76/%7Ebenelou/ihof/ben/slivers/helmet3.png (http://108.59.255.76/%7Ebenelou/ihof/ben/teampage.php?teamid=3)</center></td> <td><center>44-16</center></td> <td><center>79,900</center></td> <td><center>BOX (http://108.59.255.76/%7Ebenelou/ihof/ben/boxscore.php?year=2034&week=24&away=2&home=3)</center></td> <td><center>LOG (http://www.gstelmack.com/woof/html/log2034230203.html)</center></td> </tr> <tr> <td><center> 2035</center></td> <td><center>13</center></td> <td><center>http://108.59.255.76/%7Ebenelou/ihof/ben/slivers/helmet3.png (http://108.59.255.76/%7Ebenelou/ihof/ben/teampage.php?teamid=3)</center></td> <td><center>36-19</center></td> <td><center>65,100</center></td> <td><center>BOX (http://108.59.255.76/%7Ebenelou/ihof/ben/boxscore.php?year=2035&week=18&away=3&home=2)</center></td> <td><center>LOG (http://www.gstelmack.com/woof/html/log2035170302.html)</center></td> </tr> <tr> <td><center> 2035</center></td> <td><center>20</center></td> <td><center>http://108.59.255.76/%7Ebenelou/ihof/ben/slivers/helmet3.png (http://108.59.255.76/%7Ebenelou/ihof/ben/teampage.php?teamid=3)</center></td> <td><center>30-23</center></td> <td><center>81,700</center></td> <td><center>BOX (http://108.59.255.76/%7Ebenelou/ihof/ben/boxscore.php?year=2035&week=25&away=2&home=3)</center></td> <td><center>LOG (http://www.gstelmack.com/woof/html/log2035240203.html)</center></td> </tr> <tr> <td><center> 2036</center></td> <td><center>13</center></td> <td><center>http://108.59.255.76/%7Ebenelou/ihof/ben/slivers/helmet3.png (http://108.59.255.76/%7Ebenelou/ihof/ben/teampage.php?teamid=3)</center></td> <td><center>34-0</center></td> <td><center>80,000</center></td> <td><center>BOX (http://108.59.255.76/%7Ebenelou/ihof/ben/boxscore.php?year=2036&week=18&away=2&home=3)</center></td> <td><center>LOG (http://www.gstelmack.com/woof/html/log2036170203.html)</center></td> </tr> <tr> <td><center> 2036</center></td> <td><center>20</center></td> <td><center>http://108.59.255.76/%7Ebenelou/ihof/ben/slivers/helmet2.png (http://108.59.255.76/%7Ebenelou/ihof/ben/teampage.php?teamid=2)</center></td> <td><center>38-14</center></td> <td><center>80,000</center></td> <td><center>BOX (http://108.59.255.76/%7Ebenelou/ihof/ben/boxscore.php?year=2036&week=25&away=2&home=3)</center></td> <td><center>LOG (http://www.gstelmack.com/woof/html/log2036240203.html)</center></td> </tr> <tr> <td><center> 2037</center></td></tr></tbody></table>

[Kodos]

Hey. That should be a Rhino, not a Lake Monster! ;)

[revrew]

My experience was that it doesn't do particularly well against good offenses unless the QB is injured and being replaced by a 38/38 guy. ;)

Fair point. But did anyone's defenses slow down the Tigers? Very rarely. Tucker averaged, what? 35, 45 points per game over 20 seasons straight? BPR uber alles.

But against the rest of the league, on average, the Gandalf was more effective than not.

Still, that's kind of the point of the dynasty. Everybody knows if you build a powerful, BPR-driven offense, you win. Tucker has proven that anecdotally, statistically and definitively. I've always tried to find alternative methods to success. Can defense actually drive a team to a championship?

Answer: Not in MP. Not with teams like Tucker out there. It's an offensive show.

But what about in SP? That's what I'm trying to find out.

[Ben E Lou]

Fair point. But did anyone's defenses slow down the Tigers? Very rarely. Tucker averaged, what? 35, 45 points per game over 20 seasons straight? BPR uber alles.Not QUITE that much...

IHOF STATS BY SEASON (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/ihof/ben/statsbyseason.php?team=3)

Looks like 36.2 over the seven seasons represented above. (I'm not sure exactly when you joined the league, but I know that you traded with me for WR Burke and handed me the 1.1 as a result, so I started with Burke's first season on your team when I pulled those numbers. It seemed to make sense also given that the season you got Burke was the franchise's first playoff appearance in several years.) 34.2 versus your team with the no-QB game included, 36.4 otherwise, so very similar results there...

But against the rest of the league, on average, the Gandalf was more effective than not.It did ok, but I'd argue that it was the same ol' thing: you had big red bars in the secondary. I just checked the ratings of your starting secondary in 2036, the year you won it all:

CB: 85/85 http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/ihof/ben/playercard.php?playerid=23956
CB2: 63/63 http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/ihof/ben/playercard.php?playerid=26472
SS: 73/73 http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/ihof/ben/playercard.php?playerid=24038
FS: 60/60 http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/ihof/ben/playercard.php?playerid=21495

You also had two highly-rated linebackers at SLB and MLB (the only two that appear to matter for coverage).

I'm not trying to be a jerk or rain on anyone's parade, but I also don't want to see people reading this, getting misled, running out and trying to implement this defense, and then get frustrated when it doesn't do very much. Let's be clear: even with all that talent in coverage, the 2036 Boston team (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/ihof/ben/teampage.php?teamid=2&year=2036) was only #12 against the pass and #10 in scoring defense. I would argue that an AI defensive game plan might have done similarly well with that talent.

But what about in SP? That's what I'm trying to find out.Hmmmm...I didn't realize that this was still a question. Absolutely it can. Pretty sure 19-0 is fairly easy to achieve in SP even with your house rules. I think you'd have to add serious restraints on keeping your top defensive guys around to keep it challenging. Now, you may have lots of *fun* doing it this way, but I can assure you that it's very much doable in SP.

[revrew]

I'm not trying to be a jerk or rain on anyone's parade, but I also don't want to see people reading this, getting misled, running out and trying to implement this defense, and then get frustrated when it doesn't do very much.

Fair enough. I'll concede this, include it as a disclaimer even. If there is a magic key to creating dominant MP defenses that can stop MP offenses, I don't claim to have it.

But I will counter your argument with a few other facts:

In 2036, the year you cite, the Rhinos were #4 in total defense (yards), #1 against run.
In 2035, #1 in total defense (yards), #2 vs. run, #5 vs. pass
In 2034, #2 in total defense (yards), #2 vs. run, #9 vs. pass
In 2033, #1 in total defense (yards), #3 vs. run, #1 vs. pass
In 2032, #1 in total defense (yards), #1 vs. run, #2 vs. pass

So, I'll stand by my record there. For a 5-year run in the IHOF, the Boston defense was consistently dominating. Similar results in the GEFL (where the Gandalf got its name. As the dynasty states, it was never as effective vs. the pass in the IHOF. In fact, it was better against the run!).

Does that make the Gandalf a magic key? No. Was some of that success due to building talent at the position, not my gameplan? Absolutely.

But I don't think it's fair to suggest that run was because I simply had the most red-barred defense in IHOF. In fact, for most of that run, I struggled with a woefully inferior defensive line and couldn't get a pass-rushing RDE (the primary sacker in the Gandalf) to save my skin.

I will, however, offer this: The Gandalf DOES say build your secondary. It DOES say an elite S is more important than you think. If the Gandalf succeeded because we had good red bars in the secondary ... then that kind of makes my point. We were good against pass and great against run, and I'd argue it was largely because of the talent-building strategy of the Gandalf.

[Ben E Lou]

But I don't think it's fair to suggest that run was because I simply had the most red-barred defense in IHOF. In fact, for most of that run, I struggled with a woefully inferior defensive line and couldn't get a pass-rushing RDE (the primary sacker in the Gandalf) to save my skin.That's where we just plain disagree, I guess. I'd argue that your very high time of possession numbers combined with a good offense and big red bars on defense fueld the numbers way more than any game plan. Heck, with just the first two of those components, I've got the #3 scoring defense in IHOF this season despite having only one defensive player rated above 38 (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/ihof/ben/teampageroster.php?teamid=3).

I will, however, offer this: The Gandalf DOES say build your secondary. It DOES say an elite S is more important than you think. If the Gandalf succeeded because we had good red bars in the secondary ... then that kind of makes my point. We were good against pass and great against run, and I'd argue it was largely because of the talent-building strategy of the Gandalf.Well, sure. I say again: if you get big red bars on defense, your defense will do well. And it helps a TON when you run a ball-control offense like you did. Let's look at your championship season again. With all that short passing and not a lot of YAC, your offense ran almost 68 plays per game--highest in the league. My quick-strike offense ran the fewest in the league at 58. Your defense was only #11 in ypa allowed and #9 in QBR rating allowed. Those are good numbers, but nothing special for having the kind of secondary talent that you had. I'll say it again: I'm pretty sure that with that kind of talent, an AI game plan would have put up roughly the same kinds of numbers--maybe even better ones.

There's nothing inherently wrong with a defensive strategy that involves building a strong secondary. (Well, other than the fact that it diverts resources away from what really matters in this game.) I'm just saying that based on experience and even the developer's comments when he was asked directly about defensive game planning in various Q&As about this game, it is abundantly clear that spending a bunch of time on defensive game planning is mostly a waste of time.

[RedKingGold]

Rev, come back to IHOF and show Ben how wrong he is. We have openings!

[revrew]

There's nothing inherently wrong with a defensive strategy that involves building a strong secondary. (Well, other than the fact that it diverts resources away from what really matters in this game.) I'm just saying that based on experience and even the developer's comments when he was asked directly about defensive game planning in various Q&As about this game, it is abundantly clear that spending a bunch of time on defensive game planning is mostly a waste of time.

Well, now, here is where we completely agree. And perhaps I just haven't stated it loudly enough.

In MP, "what really matters in this game" is BPR. Get a good offensive gameplan and the tools to use it - i.e. guys with good BPR - and you win. Period. Ain't nothing that can stop it. Defensive gameplanning in MP to try to counter that offense ... is a waste of time. Agreed.

Veteran MP players should know by now that the real competition in MP isn't about gameplanning, but about drafting, signing and trading to garner the players all good MP GMs should covet (and building cohesion - props to QS). That's it. Everything else is child's play and losing to the Tucker juggernauts who know better.

Ben's right on that point, y'all. I disagree with him about the effectiveness of my defense against average to poor teams, but I absolutely agree that the relative effectiveness of my defense is a pittance, a trifle in comparison to his offense. Ben's offensive system will roll any defense, no matter how good, and if you think the Gandalf or any other defensive strategy will make up ground for you against that ... you are wasting time, and more importantly, cap room.

[cuervo72]

If you're trying to compete against Ben in MP, you are wasting time. ;)

[Kodos]

I wonder if winning all the time gets boring. ;)

[Ben E Lou]

I wonder if winning all the time gets boring. ;)I probably would have hung up my FOF MP cleats this fall or winter were it not for a new game coming out.

[Kodos]

I can only imagine how excited you will be to have a new game to dissect and optimize. I realize this might sound like an attack coming from an immersion guy, but it's not intended that way at all. You obviously enjoy going in and figuring out how everything works. Having a new challenge will be just what the doctor ordered since you've thoroughly figured out FOF2k7. :)

[MalcPow]

New game should be good for everybody. I am irrationally optimistic.

Also, really liking this stuff rev, keep it going.

[aston217]

Yeah! This has been a fun discussion. Thanks for starting it, rev.

[Ben E Lou]

Indeed. This has given me an idea for an entirely new way of thinking about house rules. Posting coming in a few minutes...