Monk vs. Harry Potter [Archive] - Front Office Football Central

Marmel

06-20-2003, 12:05 PM

*sigh*

I watch very little television if it is not sports. I love Survivor, and a couple random sitcoms are out there that I can relate to. That probably adds up to 3 hours per week of non-sporting, non-movie television that I watch during the Survivor season.

Last summer I happened to be flipping through the upper channels and came upon this show called 'Monk"

Wow! What a terrific show. I was hooked. For a cable network, and a first season effort, this show was terrific. Great chemistry, great acting, and pretty good story lines. I caught about half of the episodes last summer.

I am pretty excited for the second season premier, which is on at 10pm this evening on the USA network. If you are not doing much tonight, I highly recommend checking it out if you have not seen it before.

Oh, but nothing is ever easy. I promised the wife I would go with her to Border's around midnight to get the new Harry Potter book. It turns out there will be a very long waiting line (probably infested with annoying children), and that we should get there well before 11pm if we are going to want to get a copy.

Great. Exactly what I wanted to do this evening. Stand in line at Borders for a couple hours to buy a book that I will not even open. Meanwhile, I am missing one of my new favorite shows on TV.

Good thing for VCRs. :(

TroyF

06-20-2003, 12:06 PM

Marmel,

I love the show Monk. A really terrific show IMO.

TroyF

scooper

06-20-2003, 12:13 PM

I'll be with my wife at Barnes and Noble.

:(

Easy Mac

06-20-2003, 12:18 PM

Luckily, my woman asn't read Harry Potter (she says she wants to though :() And what is up with women reading Harry Potter. Almost every female I know swear by it, but most guys I know don't like it.

Oh, and Monk kicks ass.

scooper

06-20-2003, 12:20 PM

I've read the books. They're not bad. I just don't want to wait in line at midnight with a bunch of kids to get one. It's not like the book won't be there later.

Craptacular

06-20-2003, 12:31 PM

Why would anyone wait in a horrendously long line to buy a frickin' book or see a new movie when it comes out ... don't worry, they're not gonna make changes to them anytime soon. I just don't understand this phenomenon.

scooper

06-20-2003, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by Craptacular
Why would anyone wait in a horrendously long line to buy a frickin' book or see a new movie when it comes out ... don't worry, they're not gonna make changes to them anytime soon. I just don't understand this phenomenon.

That's my argument but.....

tucker342

06-20-2003, 12:56 PM

I would never, ever wait in line to get a book, unless I got sex because I waited in line, than I would

Marmel

06-20-2003, 12:57 PM

Anrhydeddu

06-20-2003, 12:59 PM

I still don't understand why anyone would wait in line at midnight if they are not going to be staying up all night reading the book. Trust me, there will be lots of them on the shelves this weekend during normal store hours.

Marmel

06-20-2003, 01:04 PM

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
Trust me, there will be lots of them on the shelves this weekend during normal store hours.

That is something I am not so sure about. :( It is possible though.

scooper

06-20-2003, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by Marmel
Tell me about it. I am sure I will wander off to an interesting section of the bookstore, find a seat and act like I am in a library. :D

This is my plan exactly.

Anrhy, I believe my wife will be up all night reading.

bbor

06-20-2003, 01:35 PM

My Wife works at Chapters(Borders of the north)...They are closing thier store at 10PM tonight...Then Ticket holders will be allowed into the store to line up at the cahs register..so at 12pm they are allowed to purchase their copy of Potter.

There will also be a line-up outside for NON-ticket holders.....they get to wait in line until all the people who paid for tickets purchase their book..then they will be let in to purchase theirs.

They have 27 000 copies at the store..and she thinks they will run out sometime on Saturday afternoon.1/3 of those copies are pre-orders.

Amazon.com has stated that they already have pre-orders for 1million copies......this thing is crazy ....

Oh ya...she is closing the store at 2:30 AM...is that crazy??...a book store open till 2 AM??It is worth it though..harry Potter will assure her store will make bonus..which means mucho dinero :)

Franklinnoble

06-20-2003, 01:41 PM

My wife and I read them with our kid (well, kids, if you count the bun in the oven) We're looking forward to the new book, but we're not making special plans for it or anything. We'll probably go to Costco on Saturday and pick it up at a nice discount. :D Whether that's before or after we catch a matinee of "The Hulk" I haven't determined yet. :D

albionmoonlight

06-20-2003, 01:41 PM

I think Harry Potter is great and . . . [checks pants] I'm a man.

I will not, however, be up until Midnight for the fun of standing in line.

ISiddiqui

06-20-2003, 01:47 PM

Monk is a great show! You have your VCR, you can watch the show later, it's all good :D.

Harry Potter is great as well... but I ain't standing in line to get it. I'll pick it up this weekend, or if it sold out, then during the week or something (I bet there will be another shipment on Monday).

JeeberD

06-20-2003, 02:05 PM

I've enjoyed the Potter movies, but I have yet to read the books. A friend of mine at work keeps telling me that I need to read them and that she'll lend me her copies, but I'm not sure if I want to.

Oh, and my mom loves the books too. I don't think my girlfriend has read them, though...

ISiddiqui

06-20-2003, 02:06 PM

Definetly read the books... they are 10 times better than the movies. Great stuff :D.

Craptacular

06-20-2003, 02:09 PM

Never saw the movie(s?). Never read the books. Never want to.

sterlingice

06-20-2003, 02:24 PM

Ok, if you're waiting in line for something retail unless it's, say, medication you can't do without... that's just crazy. Maybe on the day after Thanksgiving when you can get some stuff for half off but they only have ludicrously limited quantities. It's an f'ing book! Now I know I haven't read them (I liked both movies a lot, tho) but... no, there's no way. I love video games, for instance, but I didn't run down to Wal Mart or Best Buy and wait six hours in line for them to open up when Zelda came out.

I love Monk, too. The title of this thread, however, just makes me laugh. My mind immediately jumped to an image of a nerd with a broom trying to hit a grown nerd who keeps running around trying to avoid human contact.

SI

scooper

06-20-2003, 02:26 PM

Anybody here remember hitting refresh for hours waiting for FOF2k1 or TCY?

Marmel

06-20-2003, 02:33 PM

Originally posted by scooper
Anybody here remember hitting refresh for hours waiting for FOF2k1 or TCY?

Yeah, but that was from the comfort of my home. Or work.

I think she is a bit crazy for doing this and dragging me into it, but what the hell.......:p

scooper

06-20-2003, 02:56 PM

I'll probably end up sleeping on one of the store's couches.

Anrhydeddu

06-20-2003, 03:29 PM

You know, I wonder if I can avoid knowing any spoilers (like who died). I still have to read books 3 and 4 before I can read 5. I seriously doubt it though.

Marmel

06-20-2003, 03:34 PM

I skipped the books and watched the movies.

The first one was brilliant.

I thought the second one sucked. I was looking forward to it too.

Not that I went to the theatres to see them, so I wasn't that looking forward to it.

ISiddiqui

06-20-2003, 03:39 PM

That's kinda funny, because I thought the 2nd book was head and shoulders over the 1st one. Though many consider the 2nd book to be the worst, I liked it a lot.

Anrhydeddu

06-20-2003, 03:59 PM

I, too, thought the first movie was much better than the second. The CoS movie, imo, had two significant flaws: the whole spider scene and that basalisk were so stupid. I felt there were no flaws in the first movie and that Voldemorts scene at the end of movie 1 was one of the best scenes of all, much better than the stupid finale with Voldemort in movie 2. Fwiw.

ISiddiqui

06-20-2003, 04:21 PM

The CoS movie, imo, had two significant flaws: the whole spider scene and that basalisk were so stupid.

The spider scene is scarier (and better) in the book. As for the basalisk... I like it. I didn't see what was so flawed about it ::shrug::.

Arles

06-20-2003, 06:06 PM

From now on, I would preorder it on Amazon.com. My wife did that and she will have it tomorrow morning and for a pretty significant discount. Plus, no lines ;)

Arlie

vtbub

06-20-2003, 06:33 PM

We have til Sunday to get the book or our 40% discount goes bye-bye.

Yes, Mrs. Bub and I will be at Borders at midnight.

oykib

06-20-2003, 06:52 PM

Can anyone say 'overrated'?. I read the first book. It was okay. But it was fairly standard stuff. How this series has sold seventy-two cajillion copies is beyond me.

To me it seems like everyone is buying and reading it just because everyone else is.

ISiddiqui

06-20-2003, 07:15 PM

oykib, nope, not in the slightest. I love these books, think they are wonderful! I don't care if 5 people buy them, I'll still get them and continue to do so. After all, I didn't care how many people bought 'Fallout' or 'OOTP5', I still bought them because I like them.

oykib

06-20-2003, 07:24 PM

Originally posted by ISiddiqui
oykib, nope, not in the slightest. I love these books, think they are wonderful! I don't care if 5 people buy them, I'll still get them and continue to do so. After all, I didn't care how many people bought 'Fallout' or 'OOTP5', I still bought them because I like them.

I'm not saying that any particular person is guilty. But, come on, is Harry Potter the best fantasy, best comedy, or even children's book. If it's not even close ( and it's not ), then why has it sold so many copies?

Actually, I don't like Harry Potter very much. The writing is decent. But I don't find it particularly funny. Also, the first book was just filled with bad mesages.

ISiddiqui

06-20-2003, 07:38 PM

But, come on, is Harry Potter the best fantasy, best comedy, or even children's book.

IMO, yes, no, yes :D.

I consider it light years ahead of Lord of the Rings, which I believe fits your earlier post better. Everyone reads LotR because everyone else read it.

wbonnell

06-20-2003, 08:08 PM

Originally posted by ISiddiqui
But, come on, is Harry Potter the best fantasy, best comedy, or even children's book.

IMO, yes, no, yes :D.

I consider it light years ahead of Lord of the Rings, which I believe fits your earlier post better. Everyone reads LotR because everyone else read it.

The best? Ever? Really?

Better than, say, Huckleberry Finn?

ISiddiqui

06-20-2003, 08:14 PM

Yes... though I love Huck Finn as well :). In the end, it ain't really a Children's Book is it? I figure it is as much for the adults as it was for the kids for the lessons it gives on race.

I don't think I've ever been more enthralled by any other book that I've ever read. The only book that came close to the 'can't put it down' feeling was Rendezvous with Rama by Arther C. Clarke.

wbonnell

06-20-2003, 08:22 PM

Originally posted by ISiddiqui
Yes... though I love Huck Finn as well :). In the end, it ain't really a Children's Book is it? I figure it is as much for the adults as it was for the kids for the lessons it gives on race.

I don't think I've ever been more enthralled by any other book that I've ever read. The only book that came close to the 'can't put it down' feeling was Rendezvous with Rama by Arther C. Clarke.

That's amazing that the book entralled you so. Personally, if I hadn't read them with my son, I probably wouldn't have read past the first novel. For whatever reason, I had difficulty suspending my disbelief. And, before you ask, I *am* a big fan of fantastical literature.

ISiddiqui

06-20-2003, 08:27 PM

Yeah... I loved them, personally. Couldn't get it away from me. I normally like to read, but this caught me and didn't let go.

oykib

06-20-2003, 08:29 PM

Harry Potter versus:

Charlotte's Web

Where the Wild Things are

A Game of Thrones

Lord of the Rings

The Belgariad

The Wizard of Oz

Chronicles of Narnia

The Neverending Story

or any number of other books

Harry Potter doesn't stack up to any of them. Tell me the lesson that Harry Potter teaches to make it a classic children's book.

Is the writing on the same level as Martin or Tolkien's work. Tolkien isn't flashy. But it's the original. And it's written for literate people. Potter is fluff. It has no depth. It doesn't mean anything beyond the page. It doesn't stand for anything.

It's like a blockbuster movie. I really like "The Matrix" but I'm not going to saty that it's the greatest film ever produced.

Anrhydeddu

06-20-2003, 08:35 PM

Me neither but all from that list, I enjoyed Harry Potter the most. When it comes down to it, it what makes you happy or enjoyed entertainment. It shouldn't be about elitism or having to accept what academic critics call intelligent reading.

wbonnell

06-20-2003, 08:35 PM

Originally posted by oykib

Tell me the lesson that Harry Potter teaches to make it a classic children's book.

Excellent point! What will my son learn from reading Harry Potter?

Anrhydeddu

06-20-2003, 08:37 PM

That reading is fun and imaginative?

wbonnell

06-20-2003, 08:37 PM

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
Me neither but all from that list, I enjoyed Harry Potter the most. When it comes down to it, it what makes you happy or enjoyed entertainment. It shouldn't be about elitism or having to accept what academic critics call intelligent reading.

True, but it also shouldn't be what society says is good either. Just because HP sells millions of books does NOT make it quality. I didn't find it the least bit entertaining to tell the truth. THe only redeeming value I got by reading them was time spent with my son.

wbonnell

06-20-2003, 08:38 PM

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
That reading is fun and imaginative?

That's important, of course, but I sure wish there was a lesson to be learned(no matter how subtle). Harry Potter seems too cookie-cutter for me.

oykib

06-20-2003, 08:39 PM

I don't apologize for liking "The Matrix". I'm not saying that no one should read the Potter books. But if you could pick one book for, seemingly, everyone in the universe to read, would you pick Harry Potter?

You really like Harry Potter more than everything on that list? It certainly is true that there is no accounting for taste.

wbonnell

06-20-2003, 08:41 PM

Originally posted by oykib
I don't apologize for liking "The Matrix". I'm not saying that no one should read the Potter books. But if you could pick one book for, seemingly, everyone in the universe to read, would you pick Harry Potter?

You really like Harry Potter more than everything on that list? It certainly is true that there is no accounting for taste.

And how many books on that list have most Harry Potter fanatics read?

wbonnell

06-20-2003, 08:42 PM

Anrhydeddu

06-20-2003, 08:44 PM

Careful now. Most of those books on that list were either too convulted or written in a more verbose style that makes it harder to follow. Those are all very quality books but we weren't talking about that. I was just pointing out a single criteria of fun or enjoyment. Same thing with movies or games. I rank my favorites solely on how much pleasure I got from view or playing them over and over - not whether they are the best or even the best quality. That would be a different list.

Anrhydeddu

06-20-2003, 08:48 PM

Originally posted by wbonnell
did you read "A Game of Thrones" bucc? If so, I don't believe your above claim.

I didn't say I read all of them (most I read or tried to before I got bored). But I will check out "A Game of Thrones". You guys know I read a lot of non-fiction history books. Every once in a while, I like much more light and fun reading. That's why I really enjoyed Harry Potter (at least the first two) and Clive Cussler.

oykib

06-20-2003, 08:50 PM

By the way, your sons and daughters will learn many valuable lessons from Harry Potter.

They'll learn that if you are a misfit, you should wait until the magical man comes on his magical motorcycle to tell you that you are rich, powerful, and talented. Don't worry about earning anything through your own merit. Once you go to magic school you'll find out that you are the Ronaldo of Quiddich.

Also you'll learn to treat the booksmart, hard-working girl badly because she's no fun. Then you'll learn to accept her when she strarts to show tendencies to slack off and disregard the rules (just like you); particularly the ones that involve her joining you on dangerous outings.

Also I shouldn't forget to mention that they'll learn that you can always count on good old Dumbledore to haul their asses out of the fire when they get into dangerous situations by disregarding the rules.

Actually, Harry Potter is a very nice guy on the books. But I think that children's books teach messages. They either teach the valuable message that the author put there on purpose, or they teach whatever crap a careless storyteller happened to put in there.

All the kids reading the books want to be Harry. It would have been nice if there was something about Harry to admire that would actually be of benefit to the kids to emulate.

ISiddiqui

06-20-2003, 08:52 PM

What will my son learn from reading Harry Potter?

As in the last book: "There is the easy way to do things and the right way..."

I'm not saying that no one should read the Potter books. But if you could pick one book for, seemingly, everyone in the universe to read, would you pick Harry Potter?

It's close. Either Potter or the first three Foundation Books.

DEFINETLY NOT the Lord of the Rings, my pick for most overrated book of all time.

You really like Harry Potter more than everything on that list? It certainly is true that there is no accounting for taste.

My opinion is different than yours, so that means you have no taste! And since I said it, it must be true! :p

Anrhydeddu

06-20-2003, 08:54 PM

Imran, you can't argue with someone that likes "The Matrix", one of the most senseless and overrated movie of all time.

ISiddiqui

06-20-2003, 08:55 PM

It would have been nice if there was something about Harry to admire that would actually be of benefit to the kids to emulate.

:rolleyes:

I guess we know where you stand on the issue, but I would love for my kids to turn out like Harry. Very brave and loyal to his friends. Great qualities for any kids to have.

wbonnell

06-20-2003, 08:56 PM

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
I didn't say I read all of them (most I read or tried to before I got bored). But I will check out "A Game of Thrones". You guys know I read a lot of non-fiction history books. Every once in a while, I like much more light and fun reading. That's why I really enjoyed Harry Potter (at least the first two) and Clive Cussler.

Then I implore you to immediately check out "A Game of Thrones". George Martin spins an incredible yarn.

ISiddiqui

06-20-2003, 08:57 PM

Imran, you can't argue with someone that likes "The Matrix", one of the most senseless and overrated movie of all time.

I liked the Matrix (1st one, haven't seen the second one yet). The problem is that you have people who want to pigeonhole it into other things. I went and saw a nice action flick with some minor philosophy thrown in. I enjoyed the shooting and kicking :D.

Marmel

06-20-2003, 08:57 PM

I am not a Harry fan, but it has gotten millions of kids who never read, to read books. That cannot be a bad thing.

I'm off to the bookstore. Have a fun night arguing the merits of Mr. Potter. ;)

Marmel

06-20-2003, 08:58 PM

dola....

Those jelly beans that have spawned from these books are pretty cool. Extremely disgusting, but pretty cool. :D

wbonnell

06-20-2003, 08:58 PM

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
Imran, you can't argue with someone that likes "The Matrix", one of the most senseless and overrated movie of all time.

Though it is metaphysically simplistic (contrived?), I was still intellectually stimulated by the Oracle and Architect scenes in "Reloaded". Since I am a software engineer who happens to be currently reading hard core philosophy for fun, "Reloaded" was certainly apropos.

oykib

06-20-2003, 08:59 PM

Originally posted by ISiddiqui

My opinion is different than yours, so that means you have no taste! And since I said it, it must be true! :p

I wrote that there was no accounting for taste. I didn't write that you were a moron. Discussions can become personal arguments eeither because people make personal attacks or because people decide to take the fact that others have different opinions than them personally.

'There's no accounting for taste' means that there is no way to accurately figure out what someone will like.

I'm very similar to my father. Look like him, Talk like him, the whole deal. His favorite dessert is sweet potato pie. I can't stand the stuff. Even the smell of sweet potatoes makes me ill.

There's no accounting for taste.

Anrhydeddu

06-20-2003, 09:01 PM

who happens to be currently reading hard core philosophy for fun,

I guess I shouldn't criticize, I am currently reading both cryptanalogy and 19th century military strategy for fun. :)

ISiddiqui

06-20-2003, 09:03 PM

'There's no accounting for taste' means that there is no way to accurately figure out what someone will like.

Well usually it is used to put down someone's preference, so sorry if I jumped to conclusions.

oykib

06-20-2003, 09:03 PM

Originally posted by ISiddiqui
:rolleyes:

I guess we know where you stand on the issue, but I would love for my kids to turn out like Harry. Very brave and loyal to his friends. Great qualities for any kids to have.

Can you find a children's book where the hero isn't loyal? I think that there aren't that many published. As for the brave thing-- Brave or reckless: you make the call.

wbonnell

06-20-2003, 09:04 PM

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
I guess I shouldn't criticize, I am currently reading both cryptanalogy and 19th century military strategy for fun. :)

Fictional, yes, but have you read "Cryptonomicon"?

Tagentially related but worth checking out: "Godel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid".

bosshogg23

06-20-2003, 09:04 PM

Did anyone else pre-order Harry Potter? And if so did you get yours early? I pre-ordered it through B&N and got mine today at around 2pm. The package clearly says not to deliever before 6/21. Guess Rowling will be suing someone else......

wbonnell

06-20-2003, 09:08 PM

Originally posted by oykib
Can you find a children's book where the hero isn't loyal? I think that there aren't that many published. As for the brave thing-- Brave or reckless: you make the call.

That's because we need to be careful not to corrupt the developing mind. While real life may not be so black and white, our children (well, my children :) ) need to believe that good will prevail. Let them learn later that it's not that simple- they'll have ample opportunity.

ISiddiqui

06-20-2003, 10:15 PM

As for the brave thing-- Brave or reckless: you make the call.

Um... when the Dark Lord of all evil is coming back or threatening to kill you, I don't think anything done by Harry would be considered 'reckless'.

kcchief19

06-20-2003, 10:42 PM

Marmel, you should have made this a poll. :)

Not to douse any cold water on the Up-With-People/Harry Potter vibe going on here, but you ladies do realize that this is a CHILDREN'S BOOK, right? What, did you all of you marry 12-year-olds?

I can (somewhat) understand reading the book to your kids. However, I must admit that I'm puzzled that anyone over the age of 13 would read Harry Potter books for fun, much less a GUY.

I s'pose I just don't understand the world anymore.

ISiddiqui

06-20-2003, 10:52 PM

kcchief... I guess then when you turned 18, you magically thought that Huckleberry Finn and the Chronicles of Narnia sucked overnight right?

It's that type of closed minded thinking that prevents people from experiencing wonderful things that they never would have because "you are not supposed to".

Go ahead, try it out... read a book... you might find you like it :p.

--

Oh, and btw, Monk was awesome :D.

Marmel

06-20-2003, 11:42 PM

I'm Baaaaaack!

It was not too bad. We got there at 10:30, and my wife, God Bless her, waiting in line for an hour and a half all by herself while I lounged out with a coffee and started reading Moneyball.

At 12:05 we got a copy, and by 12:10 we were out the door. Of course it is easy to get in front of the cashier's line when a bunch of little kids move out of your way. :D

mckerney

06-21-2003, 12:01 AM

Originally posted by Marmel
I'm Baaaaaack!

It was not too bad. We got there at 10:30, and my wife, God Bless her, waiting in line for an hour and a half all by herself while I lounged out with a coffee and started reading Moneyball.

At 12:05 we got a copy, and by 12:10 we were out the door. Of course it is easy to get in front of the cashier's line when a bunch of little kids move out of your way. :D

Well, way to kick the asses of those little kids I guess. Though after your wife finishes reading whatever the hell the name of that book is, make her read The Moon is a Harsh Mistress and the uncut version of Stranger in a Strange Land to see what really great literary characters are like in Mike, Jubal Harshaw, and Micheal Valentine Smith are, especially when compared to Harry Potter.

ISiddiqui

06-21-2003, 12:11 AM

make her read The Moon is a Harsh Mistress and the uncut version of Stranger in a Strange Land to see what really great literary characters are like in Mike, Jubal Harshaw, and Micheal Valentine Smith are, especially when compared to Harry Potter.

I've read 'em both. I'll take Potter, thank you (but Moon is a Harsh Mistress was a very good read) :p

mckerney

06-21-2003, 12:25 AM

I'll take Heinlein anyday over Potter, though Revolt in 2100 kinda got me pissed off because it consists of several stories that seem unrelated and it changes right when you're really getting into the one before. Each time it switched I stopped reading for at least two weeks before picking it up again.

CamEdwards

06-21-2003, 12:42 AM

I'm back as well. I went with a friend to pick up a copy for his little sister, and I was surprised to find that I could buy a copy as well. It wasn't too bad, although 40 year old men dressed up as 12 year old boys are a little creepy.

bbor

06-21-2003, 01:03 AM

Originally posted by CamEdwards
It wasn't too bad, although a 40 year old man dressed up as a 12 year old boy is a little creepy.

You dressed up? :D

CamEdwards

06-21-2003, 09:20 AM

no sir, that would be an asshatted thing to do. And as you know, real men don't act like asshats (or wizards, for that matter)

kcchief19

06-21-2003, 09:57 AM

Originally posted by ISiddiqui
kcchief... I guess then when you turned 18, you magically thought that Huckleberry Finn and the Chronicles of Narnia sucked overnight right?

It's that type of closed minded thinking that prevents people from experiencing wonderful things that they never would have because "you are not supposed to".

Go ahead, try it out... read a book... you might find you like it :p.

Well, I'm not supposed to dress up like a school girl and get my ass spanked, but maybe I should open my mind ...

Sarcasm aside, we all have our escapist outlets and there is nothing wrong with that. I have plenty of CDs, movies and books that I love that have little or not artistic merit. There is nothing wrong with that. As I have grown older, and hopefully wiser, I realize escapism for what it is and not make it into more than that. I think Harry Potter is great in that it has gotten kids (and apparently adults) to read.

Actually, well before I was 18 I though that Twain and most of Lewis' works were overrated. You can throw into that category as well. Frankly, I thought Lewis' "Mere Christianity" was much more interesting and thought-provoking than the Narnia stories.

Read a book my ass. :)

bigdawg2003

06-21-2003, 11:50 AM

Well, despite never having watched a single episode of Monk or having read any of the previous four Harry Potter books, I ended up doing both last night.

Monk is an excellent show, and I'll definately try to watch it reguarly. It's smart, funny, and despite knowing who commited the murder the whole time, kept me guessing.

I've only read two chapters of the new Harry Potter book, but my interest is definately piqued. My main concern was that b/c I hadn't read the other four, I wouldn't understand this one. That is not the case at all. Everything is clearly explained and the plot is engaging. Overall, A Friday/Saturday well spent.

oykib

06-21-2003, 12:40 PM

Originally posted by CamEdwards
no sir, that would be an asshatted thing to do. And as you know, real men don't act like asshats (or wizards, for that matter)

Actually, I'm planning to call the girl over tomorrow and putting on my robe and wizard hat.

ISiddiqui

06-21-2003, 03:16 PM

I've only read two chapters of the new Harry Potter book, but my interest is definately piqued.

GREAT opening chapters! Just read the 2nd one, and went out for a bit. This one starts off with a bit more excitment than the other 4 :D. I have a feeling this book will be REALLY dark.

Oh, Marmel, I went to the mall today at 11:30, picked the book off the shelves and got it. No need to wait in line or anything ;). Though at least you got to read a little of 'Moneyball'. I read a chapter or two of that at Costco. Seems very interesting, I'll have to pick it up.

tucker342

06-21-2003, 04:33 PM

I'm pretty far into it, and it seems to be much, much darker so far...

bosshogg23

06-21-2003, 04:42 PM

My girlfriend has the book in her hands now. She stopped reading 2 other books to read this. I figured she would finish her other books THEN read HP, leaving me plenty of time to read it. Dammit........

ISiddiqui

06-21-2003, 07:15 PM

I'm pretty far into it, and it seems to be much, much darker so far...

I agree... it's so dark that I don't really think it qualifies as a children's book anymore. It seems she's altered her style to write it for older teens or young adults (she knows they read her too!).

Btw, Marmel, get to watch Monk yet?

Anrhydeddu

06-21-2003, 07:15 PM

Earlier this afternoon, my wife had to go to Target to get a birthday card and picked up the Potter book - one of over 30 they had on the shelves - for $16.86. Remind me again why folks had to wait in line at midnight to pay $30 for the book? :p

ISiddiqui

06-21-2003, 07:20 PM

Who said they HAD to wait in line at midnight? They WANTED to, to get the book before anyone else (the same reason why people waited in line for SW1). And no one YET has paid $30 for the book. It's all been on sale everywhere since midnight.

Celeval

06-22-2003, 11:08 PM

Hehe... I waited in line at midnight, finished my first reading by 6:30am, and finished my second reading an hour or so ago. And I'm a 27-year old guy. And I still like sports, steak, and hot women. :D

Easy Mac

06-22-2003, 11:21 PM

None of which you'll get b/c you're reading a 10-year old's book :)

QuikSand

06-23-2003, 06:48 AM

Originally posted by oykib
Tell me the lesson that Harry Potter teaches to make it a classic children's book.

I'm not sure that I'd agree with the "if...then" assumption this seems to be based upon, but...

The HP books have a recurring theme about elitism and stereotyping. In the book, the divide between magic-born and non-magic-born people ("muggles") is a pretty fair allegory for real-life differences between whites and blacks, for instance (or other social/racial strata, I suspect). Throughout the books, there are numerous instances where the characters who hold other people's state of birth against them are portrayed as being insensitive and unkind. I think this is an effective way to present a good moral message about judging people by their class, rather than their own actions.

There are moral strains throughout the books... while they might be susceptible to criticism in many ways, I think it's a real stretch to suggest that these children's books are devoid of any sort of "message" compared to the rest of their extended genre.

scooper

06-23-2003, 07:37 AM

Originally posted by ISiddiqui
I agree... it's so dark that I don't really think it qualifies as a children's book anymore. It seems she's altered her style to write it for older teens or young adults (she knows they read her too!).

Those teens she's writing for were the small children that made up the original fans of Harry Potter. Her books are growing up with them. If the characters are getting older, it makes sense that the tone of the book does as well. Even in the wizard world, a 15 year old is more jaded than an 11 year old.

oykib

06-23-2003, 09:22 AM

Originally posted by QuikSand
I'm not sure that I'd agree with the "if...then" assumption this seems to be based upon, but...

The HP books have a recurring theme about elitism and stereotyping. In the book, the divide between magic-born and non-magic-born people ("muggles") is a pretty fair allegory for real-life differences between whites and blacks, for instance (or other social/racial strata, I suspect). Throughout the books, there are numerous instances where the characters who hold other people's state of birth against them are portrayed as being insensitive and unkind. I think this is an effective way to present a good moral message about judging people by their class, rather than their own actions.

There are moral strains throughout the books... while they might be susceptible to criticism in many ways, I think it's a real stretch to suggest that these children's books are devoid of any sort of "message" compared to the rest of their extended genre.

I never said that it was devoid of positive messages. But, for me, to be a classic a book has to break new ground, be a marvel of literary craftsmanship, or have a broad and useful message.

It's very difficult to do the first one in any genre. It's nearly impossible to do the second one in children's books-- kids don't read well enough to get subtext. Number three is what most of the non-illustrated children's classics have.

I don't see it with Harry Potter. I do think that it has nearly as many bad points as good, though. That's okay for a nice little tale. Actually, most of us go through life hoping to have a few more good points than bad. But it's just not a classic to me.

My original point was that I thought the Potter books are so phenomenally successful almost because they are. The just seem to be in the right place in the right time. There are a great number of people who've read them just because everyone else was.

It's like all the people who've bought every John Gray book ever published and still have shitty relationships. People just seemed to pick them up because they had that '#1 National Bestseller' quasi-sticker on the cover.

I'm not saying the books arrren't enjoyable. I am saying that they aren't amazing. While personal taste is a personal thing-- with the true classics, you can point to some sort of objective comparisons to show what's great about them. I can even do that for books that I don't like that are considered classics.

Anrhydeddu

06-23-2003, 09:46 AM

I, for one, never said they were classics or even amazing - just fun and enjoyable as light reading.

My original point was that I thought the Potter books are so phenomenally successful almost because they are. The just seem to be in the right place in the right time. There are a great number of people who've read them just because everyone else was.

I would use the exact same analogy for some of the blockbuster movies (most of which I have or will not see) or even very popular sports superstars. It seems most of us pick and choose our likes/dislikes without much thought as to why and there's nothing wrong with that, as well as picking out what we like about a book or movie. As far as Potter, I like it for a simple morality tale of good vs evil (which is funny considering their occult theme).

But, for me, to be a classic a book has to break new ground, be a marvel of literary craftsmanship, or have a broad and useful message.

This is a debate we have had here. As QS can tell you, I have taken the stance of being anti-elite or anti-snobbery when it comes to high culture and supposedly "classic" works. For instance, I believe I have a college-level reading level, how else can I fully comprehend many of my hardcore nonfiction history books? However, I cannot comprehend non-modern prose or extremely obtuse prose from authors like Eco (you knew I had to bring him up again, QS). Folks have said that the harder it is to read/comprehend, then more meaningful the message. That is hogwash, imo. If the author cannot express the message or plot in a clear and concise manner, than perhaps the message is being obscured or faked. The prose of HP is written to a broader audience on purpose but the same principle can be applied to other genres as well. I just believe in the democratisation (sp?) of communications. Why write something that only a few can comprehend when the message of the text can be useful for the many?

scooper

06-23-2003, 09:50 AM

I disagree that folks read them because everybody else does. That is probably the reason for reading the first book. But reading requires a commitment of time and effort above and beyond other mediums, such as movies. Hype can only carry a book or series of books so far. For 4-5 books to have the success the HP books are having, a lot of people must really enjoy them.

oykib, I'm not saying this is your case, but people who don't like something mainstream, be it music, books, etc., often find a need to bash said phenomenom and question the real reason for its popularity. Things become popular for a reason.

scooper

06-23-2003, 09:54 AM

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu

Folks have said that the harder it is to read/comprehend, then more meaningful the message. That is hogwash, imo. If the author cannot express the message or plot in a clear and concise manner, than perhaps the message is being obscured or faked.

Amen. I have an English degree. I have read a lot of literature from ancient times to now. Some of the classic and required reading, I just don't get. How anyone can sit down and enjoy Melville is beyond me. I once had a professor tell the class, "I don't like Moby Dick, but I had to study it so you will too."

Anrhydeddu

06-23-2003, 10:02 AM

Originally posted by scooper
Amen. I have an English degree. I have read a lot of literature from ancient times to now. Some of the classic and required reading, I just don't get. How anyone can sit down and enjoy Melville is beyond me. I once had a professor tell the class, "I don't like Moby Dick, but I had to study it so you will too."

I am happy to hear from an English major on this, I guess they would be most offended by my opinion on this. We cannot criticize for the classic authors, Shakespeare, Beowulf for reading in the style that they did (or even the literai for pushing James on us), but to say they are more meaningful and important because of their style, is wrong imo.

oykib

06-23-2003, 10:04 AM

I agree with the points about elitist literature. I don't like it either. But writing that is simple to understand doesn't have to be simple.

There are some classics, like Animal Farm, that are easy reads, yet have layers of depth beyond the obvious text.

This is the second time I'm making this comparison-- But I equate HP to "The Matix" ( or, for Bucc, "Armageddon" or "Independence Day" or whatever ). It's fun. Everyone can enjoy it. But it ain't exactly The Godfather.

oykib

06-23-2003, 10:08 AM

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
I am happy to hear from an English major on this, I guess they would be most offended by my opinion on this. We cannot criticize for the classic authors, Shakespeare, Beowulf for reading in the style that they did (or even the literai for pushing James on us), but to say they are more meaningful and important because of their style, is wrong imo.

I was an English major, too. Basically, every elective that I took was a Shakespeare or a composition class. I avoided Chaucer and Milton like they were lepers.

I got through most of the classics pretty easily. But those two gave me fits just from cracking the book open.

scooper

06-23-2003, 10:08 AM

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
I am happy to hear from an English major on this, I guess they would be most offended by my opinion on this. We cannot criticize for the classic authors, Shakespeare, Beowulf for reading in the style that they did (or even the literai for pushing James on us), but to say they are more meaningful and important because of their style, is wrong imo.

Oddly enough, I love Shakespeare but it took me quite some time to reach that point. I really had to immerse myself in it to get used to the language. Once I did, I found out there is really some good stuff there. He was a great story teller and some of his comedies, once you figure out what the jokes really mean, are quite funny.

scooper

06-23-2003, 10:09 AM

Originally posted by oykib

This is the second time I'm making this comparison-- But I equate HP to "The Matix" ( or, for Bucc, "Armageddon" or "Independence Day" or whatever ). It's fun. Everyone can enjoy it. But it ain't exactly The Godfather.

That's a fair comparison. That's why I like the HP books, I enjoy reading them. I don't think anybody here is saying anything different.

cuervo72

06-23-2003, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by scooper
Oddly enough, I love Shakespeare but it took me quite some time to reach that point. I really had to immerse myself in it to get used to the language. Once I did, I found out there is really some good stuff there. He was a great story teller and some of his comedies, once you figure out what the jokes really mean, are quite funny.

My problem with Shakespeare is that whenever I read him, I wind up thinking in iambs for a half hour afterwards.

Anrhydeddu

06-23-2003, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by oykib
I agree with the points about elitist literature. I don't like it either. But writing that is simple to understand doesn't have to be simple.

There are some classics, like Animal Farm, that are easy reads, yet have layers of depth beyond the obvious text.

This is the second time I'm making this comparison-- But I equate HP to "The Matix" ( or, for Bucc, "Armageddon" or "Independence Day" or whatever ). It's fun. Everyone can enjoy it. But it ain't exactly The Godfather.

Writing that is simple to understand definitely does not have to be simple . For me, the greatest example of this is the Bible. It has to appeal to the most humble serf and to the most brilliant genius and every culture, race and age in between. A more recent example is one of my favorite Civil War authors, James McPherson who won a Pulitzer Prize for [i]Battle Cry of Freedom. Even though he is a Princeton lecturer, he has been critical of the more academic approaches to literature (esp. in his Civil War genre) where "they are writing more and more about less and less to the fewer and fewer". If a reader has an interest in the topic, why should an academic-minded author (or even in the more technical field) not communicate effectively to them but instead, only among themselves? I am reading a book on the history of cryptanalysis (applying specifically to WW2 code-breaking). It is written in an easy to read prosem whereas other books on the exact same subject are much more drier and harder to read. What does this happen all of the time?

I would love to discuss the differences between Godfather and other movies but I have hijacked this thread to much already. In parting, I can that, like books, it's all what we want to get out of a movie and enjoyment factor. How else can one explain that in my Top 10 movie list, I have both The Godfather and The Mummy?

bamcgee

06-23-2003, 02:06 PM

I finished the Harry Potter book last night.

I just didn't want to stop reading it. It met expectations - like the others, it has sympathetic, lifelike characters in a fantastic world caught up in a powerful series of events. Makes for a great read.
I recommend it to anyone still sitting on the fence about the series- you won't regret it.

That being said, overall I preferred the Fourth book. Frankly, what Voldemort's after this time just didn't seem all that big a deal, and that detracted from the climax's impact, especially when compared to the Fourth's powerful conclusion. She's doing an admirable job of maturing the series however. Less innocence, more anger, more hormones.

It's interesting to me that some posters have started at the fifth book, which I don't recommend. The references to the prior adventures are frequent and likely bewildering at some point. In fact, even though I had read the earlier ones, I had a desire to reread them, especially to touch up on some of the characters. Can't remember Lupin at all, for example. For those new to the series, I envy you. There's a whole new world out there to enjoy.

On the other hand (back to the thread subject), I found the Monk premiere to be somewhat lifeless. Won't be watching it again.

Franklinnoble

06-23-2003, 02:25 PM

Originally posted by bamcgee
I finished the Harry Potter book last night.

I just didn't want to stop reading it. It met expectations - like the others, it has sympathetic, lifelike characters in a fantastic world caught up in a powerful series of events. Makes for a great read.
I recommend it to anyone still sitting on the fence about the series- you won't regret it.

That being said, overall I preferred the Fourth book. Frankly, what Voldemort's after this time just didn't seem all that big a deal, and that detracted from the climax's impact, especially when compared to the Fourth's powerful conclusion. She's doing an admirable job of maturing the series however. Less innocence, more anger, more hormones.

It's interesting to me that some posters have started at the fifth book, which I don't recommend. The references to the prior adventures are frequent and likely bewildering at some point. In fact, even though I had read the earlier ones, I had a desire to reread them, especially to touch up on some of the characters. Can't remember Lupin at all, for example. For those new to the series, I envy you. There's a whole new world out there to enjoy.

On the other hand (back to the thread subject), I found the Monk premiere to be somewhat lifeless. Won't be watching it again.

Alright... so, who croaks? My money says it's either Hagrid or Dumbledore...

QuikSand

06-23-2003, 02:28 PM

Originally posted by Franklinnoble
Alright... so, who croaks? My money says it's either Hagrid or Dumbledore...

I happen to agree with the prediction, in that order, but...

I think it would be good form to put any spoilers into a thread with an appropriate title. That's been done for other similar instances on this forum, and I think it would avoid any untoward feelings.

Franklinnoble

06-23-2003, 02:36 PM

Originally posted by QuikSand
I happen to agree with the prediction, in that order, but...

I think it would be good form to put any spoilers into a thread with an appropriate title. That's been done for other similar instances on this forum, and I think it would avoid any untoward feelings.

I didn't expect him to actually post an answer... I was really just posting my prediction in the form of a rhetorical question... besides, I'm reading the book now with my wife and kids... and would be unable to refrain from making forboding comments about said character whenever he or she was mentioned in the text prior to the actual event. ;)