The Loyalties of an 18 year old [Archive] - Front Office Football Central

Anrhydeddu

06-23-2003, 11:41 AM

Originally posted by Bishop
They are paying him 90 million dollars over the next 7 years, he should be loyal to them.

Loyalty doesn't have squat to do with how hard he is gonna try on the court... Nike didn't pay him 90 million dollars just to be loyal to Nike, they paid him that because they think he's gonna become one of the top players in the league an they want that just as much as the Cavs.

I disagree to some extent. It is secondary if he becomes a star in the league. As long as folks continue to buy Nike products as well as the new Nike lines, it would be worth it to them. You don't have to be the best player or even one of the best players in order to have the image and hype to sell products. (How else do you explain the immensive popularity of Vick jerseys? :D )

primelord

06-23-2003, 12:14 PM

I am continually amazed at how upset people get with LeBron. Like it is his own fault the media went insane and over hyped him. So many people want to see the kid fail for something that wasn't his own doing. Sure he has said some stupid things (one being he would never play for the Cavs which he is obviously going to renig on) but come on he is 18 years old. I am not certain I have ever known any 18 years olds who didn't say stupid things here and there. Is it that shocking to think an 18 year old kid might say something without giving it much thought first?

pjstp20

06-23-2003, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by Easy Mac
Anyone else catch Lebron James on Bob Costas on HBO the other night?

He basically said that at this point, his loyalty is to Nike, and once he actually has a team, his loyalty is 50/50.

Before, I couldn't really care if he fell on his ass. Now, fuck this kid. He doesn't even give a damn about his team. If your loyalty is to a fucking company, you deserve no respect, and deserve to fail. Play a game, then talk shit.

Sorry, but this kind of crap pisses me off.

Welcome to the Lebron Haters club Easy Mac, I'm a proud member regaurdless of the reasons why I shouldn't be. I know he's gonna get more money from endorsements, but is it so bad to wish players would be loyal to the game rather than their pocket books? It's not like this kid is going to go hungry if he doesn't get endorsements. I guess I'm just old fashioned. Who cares if players are only as good as their last season to these NBA franchises, as long as you are there, you should be there 100%. I guess I'm living in an over idealized sports world.

Balldog

06-23-2003, 12:47 PM

Why are athletes held to a greater standard than you and I?

Are you 100% loyal to your employer? I know I don't go to work every day just because I love my job, there is only one reason I come here and that is to get paid. Money makes the world go round.

pjstp20

06-23-2003, 12:56 PM

Yeah, youre right about that, I don't know but it's just the things that this kid says, it reeks of greed and selfishness. There have been plenty of 18 year olds going to the NBA that didn't give this impression, Kobe Bryant for one. I know there wasn't the media frenzy that Lebron has, but Kobe strikes me as someone who loves to play basketball. My point is you should be loyal to the game, not your endorsement deals.

Senator

06-23-2003, 01:12 PM

Blow out his knee and see how loyal Nike is to him.

primelord

06-23-2003, 01:13 PM

Originally posted by pjstp20
Yeah, youre right about that, I don't know but it's just the things that this kid says, it reeks of greed and selfishness. There have been plenty of 18 year olds going to the NBA that didn't give this impression, Kobe Bryant for one. I know there wasn't the media frenzy that Lebron has, but Kobe strikes me as someone who loves to play basketball. My point is you should be loyal to the game, not your endorsement deals.

You said it right there though. No one has had the media exposure that Lebron has had. No one was given as many opportunities to stick their foot in their mouth as often as LeBron has. I am not saying I like what he said. But I am not at all shocked by what he said. It seems rather normal to me for an 18 year old kid.

WussGawd

06-23-2003, 01:14 PM

Originally posted by Tekneek
Yeah. In case any big corporate types are reading this, I promise 100% of my working loyalty to you for $90 million, right here on the spot.

If somebody wants to hand me $90 million, yes I'd play nice. But any loyalty anybody gets in this life from me is earned, not bought.

Samdari

06-23-2003, 01:59 PM

My loyalty, at least in the area of employers, is SO for sale. Why would I work if they didn't pay me? Many people claim to love their jobs, but how many would do them for free?

How many of you would be loyal to your current employer if someone else could pay you 4 times more?

Bishop

06-23-2003, 02:00 PM

This is always a big joke... the sad thing is most the people who rip him just come off sounding jealous. They hate that the media hypes him but they write columns or threads about him.

Everyone is so self righteous till they are in the other persons shoes.

B & B

06-23-2003, 02:01 PM

Just ban Nike, they are pure evil.

Balldog

06-23-2003, 02:52 PM

Originally posted by Samdari
My loyalty, at least in the area of employers, is SO for sale. Why would I work if they didn't pay me? Many people claim to love their jobs, but how many would do them for free?

How many of you would be loyal to your current employer if someone else could pay you 4 times more?

EXACTLY!

pjstp20

06-23-2003, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by Bishop
This is always a big joke... the sad thing is most the people who rip him just come off sounding jealous. They hate that the media hypes him but they write columns or threads about him.

Everyone is so self righteous till they are in the other persons shoes.

This argument is poor and in all honesty it makes me want to puke. If I was jealous of Lebron James what exactly would I be jealous of? His money? His fame? His athletic abilities? I'm guessing thats what it would be.

If that's the case why would I say good things about Kobe Bryant, as I did earlier in this thread? Does he not have all the characteristics that would make me jealous of LeBron James? It's not the jealousy factor that makes me not like this guy, so let's move on from that.

The reason, I think, that people like me don't like him is he's a bigger, stronger, faster, more popular version of everything we hate about sports athletes, and he's the next generation. So this is what we have to look forward to. Meanwhile guys like Tim Duncan are being dropped by Nike after winning an NBA title and an MVP award. Style is winning over substance.

RendeR

06-23-2003, 03:08 PM

The hardest thing to do in your adult lives is find a career you love. If you truly find yours, you would do it for nothing if you had to. I would. If I could race cars every weekend, but they tell me I have to give my winnings entirely to charity, so be it. because I love driving a stock car. I'm NOT doing it for the money, fuck the money. and Fuck any pro athlete who does it purely for the money. I'd rather watch the kids in the backyard, because they love what they do.

Money is nice, but money doesn't make great athletes. As far as Lebron james goes, I hope he fails miserably. he's a spoiled brat with an attitude as bad as any I've seen.

I'm not even going to discuss the blatant stupidity of paying basketball players so much money. They don't even play a full frigging game. Not only do they only play a third or even a quarter of the game, but its only a FOURTY EIGHT MINUTE game. Of all the major sports baskeball players do less and get paid more. Then still have the gall to cry "I need more money", Complete ignorance.

Fuck those whiney ass crybabies. I hope the NBA dies an ugly death real soon. Talk about a waste of american time and effort.

TroyF

06-23-2003, 03:08 PM

(How else do you explain the immensive popularity of Vick jerseys? )

Are you baiting me into the conversation? :)

Vick has taken Virginia Tech to the national championship game, took the Falcons into the playoffs and became the first road playoff team ever to win at Lambeu field. . . I think he's earning his noteriaty very well, thank you. :)

TroyF

Anrhydeddu

06-23-2003, 03:15 PM

Troy, you left out my grinning smilie in your copy and paste.

pjstp20

06-23-2003, 03:22 PM

RenderR brings up some good points. To all those who are saying your services go to the highest bidder picture this: Your going to get your dream job. A job that millions of people would give anything to have, and practice almost every day of their young lives just to have a shot at. It pays you over and above any reasonable or even unreasonable need or want you have. Many before you have made this job what it is today, playing on half the salary you will be, even if it's adjusted for inflation. And before you work your first day you say half of my loyalty is dedicated to something else, and the other half is to my job.

What an insult to all those who weren't born with the natural abilities to do this job, but practiced for hours just to have a chance. What an insult to all those who blazed the trail for you to have the opprtunities that you have today.

Samdari

06-23-2003, 03:29 PM

Originally posted by pjstp20
This argument is poor and in all honesty it makes me want to puke. If I was jealous of Lebron James what exactly would I be jealous of? His money? His fame? His athletic abilities? I'm guessing thats what it would be.

If that's the case why would I say good things about Kobe Bryant, as I did earlier in this thread? Does he not have all the characteristics that would make me jealous of LeBron James? It's not the jealousy factor that makes me not like this guy, so let's move on from that.

The reason, I think, that people like me don't like him is he's a bigger, stronger, faster, more popular version of everything we hate about sports athletes, and he's the next generation. So this is what we have to look forward to. Meanwhile guys like Tim Duncan are being dropped by Nike after winning an NBA title and an MVP award. Style is winning over substance.
I don't understand how you can hate LeBron and love Kobe.

We know nothing about LeBron other than the mythical basketball abilities attributed by the media, most of whom have never seen him play live. Kobe, on the other hand, has proven to be a selfish jerk who cares more about his personal achievements than team success. He is, by all accounts, the worst teammate in the NBA.

And to say LeBron is greedy because he signed the contract with Nike? Well, two counterarguments to that would be (1) any player in the NBA will sign a shoe endorsement deal with anyone at the top price offered. (2) as token of proof of point (1) mere days after LeBron's signing with Nike, Kobe signed with them, ending a long-standing relationship with another shoe company, simply because they offered more money. Good thing there are paragons of loyalty like Kobe to show LeBron the True Way, if he were to only open his eyes.

I kind of understant the resentment of all the attention LeBron has gotten, but I really think it is not his fault. He does not have access to the media machine which fueled this hype. Lets direct our ire where it is deserved.

By the way, this hype machine is more than likely to crush the kid. Unless he is better than Jordan, he is going to be seen as a failure/bust. Those of you rooting for him to fail will more than likely be right.

pjstp20

06-23-2003, 03:38 PM

Originally posted by Samdari
I don't understand how you can hate LeBron and love Kobe.

We know nothing about LeBron other than the mythical basketball abilities attributed by the media, most of whom have never seen him play live. Kobe, on the other hand, has proven to be a selfish jerk who cares more about his personal achievements than team success. He is, by all accounts, the worst teammate in the NBA.

And to say LeBron is greedy because he signed the contract with Nike? Well, two counterarguments to that would be (1) any player in the NBA will sign a shoe endorsement deal with anyone at the top price offered. (2) as token of proof of point (1) mere days after LeBron's signing with Nike, Kobe signed with them, ending a long-standing relationship with another shoe company, simply because they offered more money. Good thing there are paragons of loyalty like Kobe to show LeBron the True Way, if he were to only open his eyes.

I kind of understant the resentment of all the attention LeBron has gotten, but I really think it is not his fault. He does not have access to the media machine which fueled this hype. Lets direct our ire where it is deserved.

By the way, this hype machine is more than likely to crush the kid. Unless he is better than Jordan, he is going to be seen as a failure/bust. Those of you rooting for him to fail will more than likely be right.

I never said I thought LeBron was greedy for signing a contract for Nike. I said he's an ass for what he said. Please don't confuse my words or you'll miss the point. I understand shoe contracts are a by product of being an elite athlete, but to say you'll give them as much loyalty as a job most people would give 110% loyalty to, comes off as saying I love money more than or at least as much as my dream job which gives me a ton of money to begin with. I gave this kid slack since he's never been an "average joe" and has no perspective, but he's hung himself three times already.

As for Kobe, he may be a selfish teamate but he loves to play the game, and he gives 100% percent to his job.

Samdari

06-23-2003, 03:44 PM

Originally posted by pjstp20
I never said I thought LeBron was greedy for signing a contract for Nike. I said he's an ass for what he said. Please don't confuse my words or you'll miss the point. I understand shoe contracts are a by product of being an elite athlete, but to say you'll give them as much loyalty as a job most people would give 110% loyalty to, comes off as saying I love money more than or at least as much as my dream job which gives me a ton of money to begin with. I gave this kid slack since he's never been an "average joe" and has no perspective, but he's hung himself three times already.

As for Kobe, he may be a selfish teamate but he loves to play the game, and he gives 100% percent to his job.
Well, a mercenary like me (I only work because they pay me) would say LeBron's loyalty is in the right place. Nike pays him more money, therefore that's where he should be more loyal.

To be fair though, I did attribute to you ideas outside the scope of your post.

And as far as Kobe giving 110% to his job, I guess that depends on perception. His effort on the court is unquestioned (at least from what I have see and read). Unfortunately, he directs that effort into the aggrandizement of one Kobe Bryant. If you consider his job to be doing what would most help the Lakers win, he checks in at far less than 100%.

rexallllsc

06-23-2003, 03:58 PM

rexallllsc

06-23-2003, 04:03 PM

Originally posted by pjstp20
. Meanwhile guys like Tim Duncan are being dropped by Nike after winning an NBA title and an MVP award. Style is winning over substance.

Shaq got dropped by Reebok a while back as well. Big men don't sell. Their styles are harder to emulate...whereas a little guy like Iverson is as tell as your average street-baller, and plays the same style...

Balldog

06-23-2003, 04:45 PM

Do you honestly think Jordan was gave 100% loyalty to the Bulls? But James is being labeled an ass for doing the same because he came out and said it.

Craptacular

06-23-2003, 04:50 PM

I think LeBron is an ass and kind of hope he fails to amount to anything in the NBA, but if he proves himself, then I'll give him some credit. The problem is, he hasn't done jack shit yet.

Samdari

06-23-2003, 07:36 PM

Originally posted by rexallllsc
]

Bullshit!

Kobe didn't cry after his streak of 40 point games was snapped...he sure as hell cried after the Lakers lost to the Spurs. I live down the street from the Lakers practice facility...and there's one guy who comes in with regularity during the off-season. Take one guess who it is.

Selfish jerk? More like best player on the team. Funny that when his coach asked him to take less shots for the good of the team, he whined in the press. Yes, he works hard. To promote HIMself, and HIS game, not the team.

pjstp20

06-23-2003, 08:26 PM

Originally posted by Samdari
Funny that when his coach asked him to take less shots for the good of the team, he whined in the press. Yes, he works hard. To promote HIMself, and HIS game, not the team.

Alright I know were starting to journey off topic here, but I must say, if I'm the Lakers coach I want Kobe to take most of the shots because no one else on that team was worth a shit shooting the ball. Secondly, wether or not Kobe's promoting himself or his team it seems to be working for everyone involved over the past few years wouldn't you say?

Bishop

06-23-2003, 08:39 PM

Originally posted by pjstp20
This argument is poor and in all honesty it makes me want to puke. If I was jealous of Lebron James what exactly would I be jealous of? His money? His fame? His athletic abilities? I'm guessing thats what it would be.

If that's the case why would I say good things about Kobe Bryant, as I did earlier in this thread? Does he not have all the characteristics that would make me jealous of LeBron James? It's not the jealousy factor that makes me not like this guy, so let's move on from that.

The reason, I think, that people like me don't like him is he's a bigger, stronger, faster, more popular version of everything we hate about sports athletes, and he's the next generation. So this is what we have to look forward to. Meanwhile guys like Tim Duncan are being dropped by Nike after winning an NBA title and an MVP award. Style is winning over substance.

Kobe didn't get half the media coverage Lebron has, You dislike him because of what ?

Because he said he's half loyal to Nike and half Loyal to the Cavs... Yeah it'd of been real smart if he pissed off Nike before he even played his first game. The Cavs don't have to draft him if thats a problem with them, i'm sure someone else will.

Because you think he's over-hyped ? How many of those columns have you read? How many interviews or shows have you watched ? and how many of those interviews/columns were written or produced by Lebron James?

And who made you look at them in the first place?

Half the people who dislike him know nothing about him, so what other reason do you have other then being jealous that he has all of this going for him straight out of HS and you didn't/don't.

I don't think we saw anyone saying I hope Kobe blows out his knee or I hope Kobe dies on the court when he came to charlotte his first year (I know he was traded before he played there) so that comparison is not even close.

Bishop

06-23-2003, 08:41 PM

Originally posted by pjstp20
Alright I know were starting to journey off topic here, but I must say, if I'm the Lakers coach I want Kobe to take most of the shots because no one else on that team was worth a shit shooting the ball. Secondly, wether or not Kobe's promoting himself or his team it seems to be working for everyone involved over the past few years wouldn't you say?

But your not the Coach, and neither is Kobe Bryant.

Phil Jackson wanted him to stop forcing shots just to get his 40 points even though they'd lose the game or blow a lead and he seemed to dis-regard it. But that's okay, cause he's Kobe and he's on your team.

pjstp20

06-23-2003, 09:42 PM

Originally posted by Bishop
Kobe didn't get half the media coverage Lebron has, You dislike him because of what ?

Because he said he's half loyal to Nike and half Loyal to the Cavs... Yeah it'd of been real smart if he pissed off Nike before he even played his first game. The Cavs don't have to draft him if thats a problem with them, i'm sure someone else will.

Because you think he's over-hyped ? How many of those columns have you read? How many interviews or shows have you watched ? and how many of those interviews/columns were written or produced by Lebron James?

And who made you look at them in the first place?

Half the people who dislike him know nothing about him, so what other reason do you have other then being jealous that he has all of this going for him straight out of HS and you didn't/don't.

Dude, please get off of this, I told you that jealousy is not a factor. What is a factor is Lebron James can't help himself from himself. If your old enough to make this kind of money your old enough to be held accountable for what you say and this dude isn't saying the smartest things. I don't care who's producing all this media, they're not making him say what he is saying. They're not making him do what he's doing.

Basically LeBron has said that if a Nike shoot and a Cavs practice happen to be at the same time, he's going to the Nike shoot half the time. To me thats bullshit, you think differently, fine. Go hang your LeBron posters and tape all his Nike commercials, while I curse him.

Mota

06-24-2003, 06:07 AM

Just take away Lebron's skills and pretend that he was serving you burgers at McDonald's.

If he had that attitude there he would get fired in 2 seconds.

That's why I don't like him.

And being 18 is not an excuse. If he's not mentally prepared to be professional, he should have gone to college. He put his name in there with all the other NBA players and it's only right that we judge him just like we do the others.

Samdari

06-24-2003, 07:06 AM

Originally posted by pjstp20
Alright I know were starting to journey off topic here, but I must say, if I'm the Lakers coach I want Kobe to take most of the shots because no one else on that team was worth a shit shooting the ball.
Have you heard of this O'Neal fellow?

Contrary to the misguided opinion above, Shaq is far more effective than Kobe. The Lakers scored 1.5 points every time Shaq shot the ball last season, 1.27 per Kobe shot. The Lakers are better off with Shaq shooting than Kobe.

An even larger point is that if Kobe were truly loyal to the team, rather than himself, there would not be a constant battle between he and his coach over who should be the focus of the offense. Jackson thinks it should be Shaq, as he is the most effective player in the league. Also, Jackson believes that when Shaq is double teamed, it gets everyone easier shots.

I read a great quote from an NBA scout when this blowup first became public - "take Shaq away from Kobe and you've got Jerry Stackhouse."

pjstp20

06-24-2003, 07:23 AM

I should have clarified, when I say shooting, I don't mean dunking, or 5 foot hook shots. Shaq was a joke last year with how fat and lazy he was, and there is a reason that people don't think he has much gas left in the tank. Plus he decided to have surgery "on the clock" rather than the off season because he thought that being injured on team time means you get surgery on team time. While Kobe gets his surgery as soon as the seasons over so he can get right back in the gym and be ready for next year.

Kobe played a lot without Shaq and with all due respect to this misguided scout he did a lot better than Jerry Stackhouse. Sure he couldn't win games by himself but no one can in the NBA not even Jordan.

Samdari

06-24-2003, 08:31 AM

Originally posted by pjstp20
Kobe played a lot without Shaq and with all due respect to this misguided scout he did a lot better than Jerry Stackhouse.
Check the Lakers record in those games.

I think the Kobe/Stackhouse comparisons come from the scout (and it was Chad Ford, the "NBA Insider" who quoted an "unnamed scout" they rarely talk to me) thinking that both would be guys who would score 30 points a game over 12 years and have a losing team record.

When you say shooting I figured you meant "taking shots." The Lakers are better off when Shaq does this than Kobe. You kind of admit you realize this is true above - like you realize that a Shaq dunk is better than any Kobe jumper. Even with Shaq having his worst year, he was still a more effective offensive option than Kobe.

pjstp20

06-24-2003, 10:03 AM

2003 Stats:

Kobe Bryant w/o O'neal: 27.6 ppg
Jerry Stackhouse: 21.5 ppg

Not quite the same player. If you wanna talk wins and loses I agree with you, Kobe can't win by himself, but either can Shaq. I already said that even the great Michael Jordan couldn't win by himself, so that's besides the point because no one can.

Easy Mac

06-24-2003, 10:20 AM

The PPS argument is asenine. That means only centers should take shots, because they have the highest FG%. And you have to facro in free throws as well, or else subtract FT points from total points to make it meaningful.

TroyF

06-24-2003, 10:39 AM

Originally posted by RendeR
The hardest thing to do in your adult lives is find a career you love. If you truly find yours, you would do it for nothing if you had to. I would. If I could race cars every weekend, but they tell me I have to give my winnings entirely to charity, so be it. because I love driving a stock car. I'm NOT doing it for the money, fuck the money. and Fuck any pro athlete who does it purely for the money. I'd rather watch the kids in the backyard, because they love what they do.

Money is nice, but money doesn't make great athletes. As far as Lebron james goes, I hope he fails miserably. he's a spoiled brat with an attitude as bad as any I've seen.

I'm not even going to discuss the blatant stupidity of paying basketball players so much money. They don't even play a full frigging game. Not only do they only play a third or even a quarter of the game, but its only a FOURTY EIGHT MINUTE game. Of all the major sports baskeball players do less and get paid more. Then still have the gall to cry "I need more money", Complete ignorance.

Fuck those whiney ass crybabies. I hope the NBA dies an ugly death real soon. Talk about a waste of american time and effort.

This post bothers me on many levels. While I agree with the main point of the post, it's off base as well. You would only give all your winnings to charity IF you could provide a comfortable living for your family. Then, if ANOTHER stock car team offered you double what you were making and said they'd MATCH all of your winnings to charity, you'd jump on it in a second. To think money has no impact is naive.

Then you cheer for an 18 year old to fail. God forbid what you might have thought of me at 18. I really don't want to know what you'd think of me had I been fawned over like Lebron most of his high school years. Being that judgemental on an 18 year old is pretty sad IMO.

Lastly, NBA players make money because people watch and attend the games. It's that simple. If the average attendance drops by 75% next year, you'll see their salaries take a dive at the next collective bargaining agreement.

The main reason the NBA players make a higher average salary is the size of the roster.

To each his own I guess. :)

Arnh,

Yup, I saw it, just giving you a hard time. :) :)

TroyF

Samdari

06-24-2003, 10:55 AM

Originally posted by Easy Mac
The PPS argument is asenine. That means only centers should take shots, because they have the highest FG%. And you have to facro in free throws as well, or else subtract FT points from total points to make it meaningful.
Actually, the free throws are what makes it meaningful. Because he gets fouled so often, he becomes more effective. Even Shaq shooting two free throws at 60% is more effective than an average NBA possession. How often one gets fouled and scores points should definitely be a factor in how efficient an offensive player one is.

By the way, PPS is a common way to measure offensive efficiency, not something I invented. Your statement above is like saying slugging percentage is stupid.

pjstp20

06-24-2003, 10:55 AM

Originally posted by TroyF
This post bothers me on many levels. While I agree with the main point of the post, it's off base as well. You would only give all your winnings to charity IF you could provide a comfortable living for your family. Then, if ANOTHER stock car team offered you double what you were making and said they'd MATCH all of your winnings to charity, you'd jump on it in a second. To think money has no impact is naive.

Then you cheer for an 18 year old to fail. God forbid what you might have thought of me at 18. I really don't want to know what you'd think of me had I been fawned over like Lebron most of his high school years. Being that judgemental on an 18 year old is pretty sad IMO.

If you relate your example to LeBron's situation it changes the whole argument. Your example of going to another stock car team for more money happens often in sports through the free agent market. I have no problem with that, it's all within the sport. But to say your loyalties will lie 50/50 with an entity outside of your main proffesion is where the problem lies.

About the cheering for failure part, I have no problem with that. According to the law when your 18 years old your an adult and your held accountable for your actions. I'm not gonna just ignore this because he's 18. I'm not gonna cheer for him to fail though, I'm just gonna see him as a selfish jerk. He can improve this image as he matures but as of now thats where it stands.

BillyMadison

06-24-2003, 11:01 AM

The media hangs on to one name, and thats why LeBron has gotten so much hype... His head can't fit through the door, and I hope the Cavs give him a rude awakening with some serious rookie hazing. I don't wish he fails... but I certainly think he is in for a suprise and it won't be spoon fed to him. Lets remember, he hasn't played one game yet... so comparisons to Kobe and Magic is a slap in the face to both.

TroyF

06-24-2003, 11:17 AM

Originally posted by pjstp20
If you relate your example to LeBron's situation it changes the whole argument. Your example of going to another stock car team for more money happens often in sports through the free agent market. I have no problem with that, it's all within the sport. But to say your loyalties will lie 50/50 with an entity outside of your main proffesion is where the problem lies.

About the cheering for failure part, I have no problem with that. According to the law when your 18 years old your an adult and your held accountable for your actions. I'm not gonna just ignore this because he's 18. I'm not gonna cheer for him to fail though, I'm just gonna see him as a selfish jerk. He can improve this image as he matures but as of now thats where it stands.

I didn't say it wasn't your right to cheer for failure. You have every right to do so. I said, that in my opinion, doing so was sad.

As for your loyalty being outside of your main profession, where should that loyalty lie? Should his loyalty be to the NBA as a whole? (which certainly wouldn't be real happy were he to reup in Cleveland) The Cavs? (who would trade him in a second if they thought they could get a better deal and sell more tickets) The fans? (who many want him to fail before he ever makes a single pass in the NBA)

Who? James signed a 90 million dollar contract with Nike. With that deal comes a certain amount of commitment and loyalty. Why would you think otherwise? Wheather he says the words or not, those are facts.

James hasn't said he'll suck it up on the basketball court if Nike tells him to. He hasn't said he isn't going to practice or that he demands to take 50 shots a game. He said his loyalty, in part, lies with a company that gave him 90 million dollars. I guess I'm confused at to how that makes him an anti-Christ.

TroyF

pjstp20

06-24-2003, 11:39 AM

Originally posted by TroyF
As for your loyalty being outside of your main profession, where should that loyalty lie? Should his loyalty be to the NBA as a whole? (which certainly wouldn't be real happy were he to reup in Cleveland) The Cavs? (who would trade him in a second if they thought they could get a better deal and sell more tickets) The fans? (who many want him to fail before he ever makes a single pass in the NBA)

Who? James signed a 90 million dollar contract with Nike. With that deal comes a certain amount of commitment and loyalty. Why would you think otherwise? Wheather he says the words or not, those are facts.

James hasn't said he'll suck it up on the basketball court if Nike tells him to. He hasn't said he isn't going to practice or that he demands to take 50 shots a game. He said his loyalty, in part, lies with a company that gave him 90 million dollars. I guess I'm confused at to how that makes him an anti-Christ.

TroyF

At the risk of sounding redundant I will adress this post. His loyalty should lie with basketball, I know it's not a physical entity, corperation or buisness but that is where it should lie. Now does his quote of being 50% with his team and 50% with Nike mean he's not gonna give his all to the sport, thats debateable, but it just doesn't sound good. I don't have a problem with him being loyal to Nike, they're paying him good money, he should have some loyalty to them. But to say you'll be just as loyal to them as you will be to your sport is also questionable. Truth be told, I don't think Nike or the Cavs care where his loyalty lies as long as he sells shoes and wins games. As a fan however it makes him look like a ungreatful jerk not the anti-Christ.

Ben E Lou

06-24-2003, 11:52 AM

"Don't run from the cops. Makin' suckers drop.
And I'm only 18, makin' more than your pop!"--LL Cool J, from The Doo-Wop from Bigger and Deffer, 1986

I'm heading out of town and wish I could go more deeply into this. I think the deep underlying issue here is that something in many of us says that no 18-year-old is worth the money, attention and adulation he has received. It says something is wrong with our society--and therefore something is wrong with us.

My short take on it, and I'll have more to say tomorrow morning or tomorrow night: In America, you're worth and deserve whatever someone is willing to pay you. Therefore:

Lebron James is worth $90 million.

Lebron James deserves $90 million.

I know it hurts to hear that, but that's just the way it is.

RendeR

06-24-2003, 12:25 PM

Oh I do entirely wish for his failure. I honestly want him to stay healthy and active and be the single most worthless putz on the court. you know why? because THAT will keep this insanity from happening to this degree in the future. Companies will have the "lebron Factor" to think about before throwing millions at some chump kid fresh outta mommies house.

Bah, The game is a joke at the professional level. The players don't give arats ass who wins what as long as their paycheck is on time. I'll watch LACROSS before I'll pay serious attention to basketball. For the simple fact that its the worst of all the major sports in this country by far in attitude and personality of players.

On another note, Money would NOT be a factor if I could drive professionally. You can quote me on this. If a team picked my ass up to drive, I'd work a second job for living expenses. I love the job THAT much.

Craptacular

06-24-2003, 12:42 PM

Originally posted by SkyDog

My short take on it, and I'll have more to say tomorrow morning or tomorrow night: In America, you're worth and deserve whatever someone is willing to pay you.

I would tend to disagree with the <b>deserve</b> part of that statement. Is LeBoy worth $90 mil? Nike obviously thinks so. Does a kid who has only proved he can beat up on H.S. competition and violate eligibility rules DESERVE it? I think not.

scooper

06-24-2003, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by RendeR
I honestly want him to stay healthy and active and be the single most worthless putz on the court. you know why? because THAT will keep this insanity from happening to this degree in the future.

No it wouldn't.

Marmel

06-24-2003, 01:05 PM

Originally posted by RendeR
Companies will have the "lebron Factor" to think about before throwing millions at some chump kid fresh outta mommies house.

Not even Nike would stop doing this if LeBron is a bust.

As long as they sell the number of sneakers they do, they will pay these contracts.

I would be willing to bet they would pay 90 million to 5 flops (unknown at the time, of course) as long as they got the one that turned out to be a mega-super-star.

pjstp20

06-24-2003, 02:24 PM

I think it's debateable wether or not shoe companies will continue this trend if Lebron is a bust, but one things for sure, if he's not this trend will increase ten fold. And I don't think thats going to help the game of basketball, a textbook sample of this are LeBron's own words that started this thread.

As I have said before and I will say again my problem with LeBron isn't the money he is making, yes I think Nike is stupid for giving him that much, but thats not my problem with this. He keeps saying and doing stupid things, that is my problem.

"I want a 100,000 dollar car before I work a day in my life"
"I don't want to play for the Cavs"
"I want retro jerseys knowing full well it will ruin my eligibility"
"I'll only give the team I play for 50% of my loyalty"

When is enough, enough? One time is a mistake, two times is a trend, four times is a character flaw.

Balldog

06-24-2003, 02:48 PM

Plan and simple you are a hater, we understand. Can we move on. We get your point already.

pjstp20

06-24-2003, 03:02 PM

Funny how you edited that post yet you still spelled plain wrong.

mckerney

06-24-2003, 03:06 PM

Maybe you should channel this hate you have towards LeBron to an athlete that really deserves it.

Like Roger Clemens.

TroyF

06-24-2003, 03:08 PM

Originally posted by pjstp20
At the risk of sounding redundant I will adress this post. His loyalty should lie with basketball, I know it's not a physical entity, corperation or buisness but that is where it should lie. Now does his quote of being 50% with his team and 50% with Nike mean he's not gonna give his all to the sport, thats debateable, but it just doesn't sound good. I don't have a problem with him being loyal to Nike, they're paying him good money, he should have some loyalty to them. But to say you'll be just as loyal to them as you will be to your sport is also questionable. Truth be told, I don't think Nike or the Cavs care where his loyalty lies as long as he sells shoes and wins games. As a fan however it makes him look like a ungreatful jerk not the anti-Christ.

Not to be nit picky, but you have a major issue here. You say in this post that he's only giving 50% loyalty to the sport. That's factually incorrect. The loyalty he's speaking about is loyalty to an organization, not the game itself.

RenderR,

Oh I do entirely wish for his failure. I honestly want him to stay healthy and active and be the single most worthless putz on the court. you know why? because THAT will keep this insanity from happening to this degree in the future. Companies will have the "lebron Factor" to think about before throwing millions at some chump kid fresh outta mommies house.

No, it wouldn't. I'll say it again, wishing for an 18 year old to fail is pathetic. You have a right to do it, but I don't like it and never will.

On another note, Money would NOT be a factor if I could drive professionally. You can quote me on this. If a team picked my ass up to drive, I'd work a second job for living expenses. I love the job THAT much.

Well, for one, you missed the point of the post entirely. I said if you already had a team and another came in with a better offer, NOT what would happen if you had no offers at all.

You DO NOT know what LeBron would do if he had the same options. Would he play the game for a lot less than he makes now? Who knows. I do know that Lebron could have played overseas this year instead of high school and made millions to do so. He could have had the 90 million dollar contract from Nike a year ago had he decided to do that, so money isn't the ONLY factor he puts into his decisions.

Lastly, you wouldn't be able to work a second job. You may make a little bit on the side in the offseason, but the major race car series are full time jobs for the drivers. Throughout the week, you meet with sponsors, do TV interviews and are in driver's meetings. It's a tough job that all of the racers love, but they get paid for more than just showing up on Sunday afternoons and racing.

TroyF

pjstp20

06-24-2003, 03:28 PM

Originally posted by TroyF
Not to be nit picky, but you have a major issue here. You say in this post that he's only giving 50% loyalty to the sport. That's factually incorrect. The loyalty he's speaking about is loyalty to an organization, not the game itself.

It's a fine line, one that I was not not willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on. Maybe I'm blowing this out of proportion. That combined with the fact that I'm running out of steam and becoming a "hater" I see the other side of this

Fine, LeBron is a good guy and has never done or said anything that should come into question by anyone. He's the blueprint of a kid who's down to earth with a good head on his shoulders. Good luck with you career LeBron, God knowns your gonna need it. You'll have enough people wishing you will fail, but I won't be one of them.

As the Beattles said "all you need is love"

-Peace

Samdari

06-24-2003, 03:30 PM

Now come on, lets be fair. The car is only worth 80k

Balldog

06-24-2003, 03:38 PM

Originally posted by pjstp20
Funny how you edited that post yet you still spelled plain wrong.

Maybe I didn't edit it for that reason?

EagleFan

06-24-2003, 03:55 PM

I think he just wasn;t thinking when he said that. It's just a stupid phrase as it is. It's not like you only have so much loyalty to go around. It's not like he can't be completely loyal to his team and Nike.

Unless Nike decides to start telling him how he should play the game and he decided to listen to them and not the coach. In that case he's a moron, since his marketing value goes down if he turns out to be the next Shawn Bradley.

At that point it's all priorities. He can be just as loyal to both as long as his priorities are in order. If they're not, he's only hurting himself.

It's amazing how quick people are to sell their soul though. Jumping for more money isn't always the answer, trust me, I'm still trapped in a downward spiral ever since I did that once. It's like I broke my karma at that point.

TroyF

06-24-2003, 10:02 PM

Originally posted by pjstp20
It's a fine line, one that I was not not willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on. Maybe I'm blowing this out of proportion. That combined with the fact that I'm running out of steam and becoming a "hater" I see the other side of this

Fine, LeBron is a good guy and has never done or said anything that should come into question by anyone. He's the blueprint of a kid who's down to earth with a good head on his shoulders. Good luck with you career LeBron, God knowns your gonna need it. You'll have enough people wishing you will fail, but I won't be one of them.

As the Beattles said "all you need is love"

-Peace

I'm not trying to be a jerk here. I've said many times you don't have to give him the benefit of the doubt. Yet you can't argue the point that the Cleveland Cavs and the game of basketball are the same thing. Even most "Lebron haters" can seperate the two.

I do think things he says should come into question. I also think that most of us, especially the 30+ crowd here, have enough life experience to know that 18 is a lot different than 30. I think it is important that all of it is put together and factored in as a whole. 18 year olds may be classified as adults by our society, but they say and do stupid things. I know I did when I was 18. I'm guessing most of the 30+ crowd here did as well.

You can put whatever spin on all of this that you want. I'm telling you my spin is that I think it's a cocky (not funny) 18 year old who has a lot to learn about the media and life.

TroyF

pjstp20

06-24-2003, 10:45 PM

Yeah I get that. I misconstrued his words and made it seem that he said he would give basketball (not the Cavs) as much loyalty as Nike. I think EagleFan said it best when he said you needn't put a number on loyalty you can be loyal to both, and perhaps that is what James meant when he said that. Right now he's immature and naive so he doesn't get it right now, but for his sake I hope his learning curve is steep. I've seen the error of my ways and I'm through bad mouthing this guy.

I've also realized that maybe I am a little jealous I 'm only human. A cocky 18 year old has the world at his fingertips and can get whatever his whim desires while I had to slave through college to get a degree and my reward is debt and a struggle to make ends meet. Something seems unfair about that, but thats life.

I can't say for sure cause I'm not in the same situation that he is in, but I can say with some degree of confidence that I wouldn't have gone about things the way he did, even at 18. I would have been more humble and greatful for my opportunities, but then again I don't know him, I only know the way the media portrays him. Still I find some of his actions questionable.

They say the meek shall inherit the earth, and hopefully there's some truth to that.

TroyF

06-24-2003, 10:52 PM

I can't say for sure cause I'm not in the same situation that he is in, but I can say with some degree of confidence that I wouldn't have gone about things the way he did, even at 18.

I hope and pray that I would have as well. I hope and pray that if a golden goose ever came along NOW that I'd handle myself with class and dignity.

I'm fairly certain I would have on both accounts. Still, I can't be sure. I'm 18, am rich beyond my wildest dreams, get any women I want, have people 30 years my senior fawning over me and calling me the greatest of all time? I don't know for sure how I would have acted.

I know that my persona on the board can appear to be a know it all type jerk sometimes, but IRL I'm a pretty humble guy who gets along with most everyone.

I hope that this kid doesn't turn into the next Randy Moss. He starts making comments about how he doesn't need to play hard every game or play and starts running down cops, my opinion of him will change very quickly.

TroyF

Leonidas

06-25-2003, 01:57 PM

A little context would help here. I took it as him trying to make light of the question. He laughed it off as he answered. Granted, there is an very interesting ethical dilemma worthy of discussion here. However, I don't think it's fair to ride this kid based on a statement taken somewhat out of context in this forum. I have read a great deal on LeBron from some people I know and trust and by and large they say he is surprisingly very well adjusted under the circumstances. I know if I had what he has at the same age I would probably not handled it as well as he does. I was intolerable enough as it was as an 18 year old without having a bunch of hucksters on my heels trying to get me to sign off on a $90M contract. Kobe, KG, and Tracy all did alright under somewhat similar circumstances. I'm willing to give LeBron the benefit of the doubt, for now.