Gilbert Arenas

[bigdawg2003]

How come the Warriors can't offer as much money as any other team. The Warriors should be rewarded for finding a talent in the 2nd round and should have every chance to resign him. Seems very unfair to me.

[QuikSand]

What little I know about the NBA and its so-called "salary cap" just makes me appreciate the NFL's version all the more.

While it's a shame that veteran players get cut more frequently in the NFL than anywhere else - I think that's an acceptable by-product (and an avoidable one as well) of a system that clearly works pretty well for the league as a whole.

And, there's a great deal of indirect evidence to suggest that the NFL is the one and only league out there who understands how to run its business and product effectively.

[Craptacular]

Unfortunately, even the NFL version seems to be heading towards NBA hell. The NBA, with all of its cap "exceptions", is horrible. The NFL's rule allowing teams to charge less against the cap for low-salary veterans just seems like a step in the wrong direction.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by Craptacular
The NFL's rule allowing teams to charge less against the cap for low-salary veterans just seems like a step in the wrong direction.

But, in their defense, it's a step that is pretty easy to defend. It has nothing to do with to-tier players - the kind that really make a difference in cap situations. It's merely about players who are going to be playing for the league minimum for their age.

As long as the NFL doesn't go any farther with the pursuit of bullshit exceptions (a la the NBA) then I'm comfortable with it. I guess I'd say that I just hope that you are proven wrong - and that they aren't really going own that road.

[Craptacular]

I hope so as well, QuikSand.

[QuikSand]

sorry to threadjack, bigdawg... but I'd be interested to hear a fair explanation about Arenas as well.

[oykib]

The NBA is just thirteen kinds of foolish with their salary cap. Part of the problem is that the convoluted rules for trading players, where you have to match salaries, leads to a system that has 75% of the teams on a treadmill of mediocrity.

The Salary cap is supportedby fans because of its purported effect of competetive balance. But most NBA fans can't name the last ten different champions teams within two minutes because every champion has been a multiple champ over the past twenty years except for the Sixers.

Teams can't go through normal success cycles because they are tied into players (seemingly) forever.

[Easy Mac]

Basically, Arenas has only been in the league for 2 years. He has yet to earn his "bird years" (3 years with a team) that would allow the team to go over the salary cap to re-sign him. The Warriors are already over the cap, so they can only offer Arenas their $4.5 million cap exception. Other teams who are under the cap can offer him more.

[Easy Mac]

spurs
bulls
rockets
lakers
pistons
celtics
76ers
blazers
warriors
knicks?

[cuervo72]

Spurs
Lakers
Houston
Bulls
Pistons
Celtics
Sixers
Supersonics
Bullets
Trailblazers

Am I close? :)

[TroyF]

The problem is Golden State being over the cap and the NBA having no real easy way for them to get out from under it. Releasing players won't help, as it isn't like the NFL system where you get tagged for the cap hit half one year and half the next.

It's a shame. :(

The Warriors can offer Arenas a 6 year 40 million dollar contract with an out after two years where all sides could renegotiate. Barring that, he'll test the market.

The most likely team to get him as of right now? The Denver Nuggets. A ton of cap room, a GM who is very popular among players throughout the league and Carmello Anthony to play with. They'll try to lure some combination of Arenas, Andre Miller, Olowkandi and Brand.

TroyF

[Hammer755]

Or Arenas may highjack the Warriors draft and stay if Golden St. selects his friend.

Fanball: Warriors - Arenas rumored to be staying (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=fanball-warriorsarenasrumore&prov=fanball&type=lgns)

News
It's only a rumor, but the Mercury News is reporting that Gilbert Arenas might re-sign with the Warriors for the $4.5 million exception (the most they can offer) if the team drafts high schooler Ndudi Ebi with the 11th pick in Thursday's draft. Arenas' agent, Dan Fegan, also represents Ebi, and the two players are reportedly friends. Ebi is a long swingman with serious hops and a penchant for playing defense.

Views
Arenas could make a lot more if he signs with the Nuggets or Clippers, who both have major cap room. However, he loves southern California and he's very good friends with teammate Jason Richardson. Plus, he could still sign a max deal with the Warriors in a couple years. Don't give up hope, Warrior fans, Gil may be staying put.

[TroyF]

I hope he does stay a Warrior, though I hope he doesn't hijack the draft to do it. The Warriors made a smart selection and gave him his break. I hope he takes the 4.5 million a year for two and then signs his big contract.

Then again, if I were in his shoes, I'd probably get what I could now. He struggles or goes into a slump in that two year period, he'll make less than 1/4 of what he could make with a big contract from the Nuggets.

TroyF

[TroyF]

Dola,

From what I'm reading on Ebi, he isn't being considered by anyone until late first round at the earliest.

TroyF

[albionmoonlight]

The NFL exception has one notable difference from the NBA exceptions. A team signs a veteran player to the vet minimum. That is the only cap hit that the team takes AND that is the only money that the team pays. The extra money that the vet gets comes from a pool of money established by the NFL and is not a cap hit AND does not come from the pockets of the team for which the player plays.

It is not really, therefore, a cap exception (where a team can spend more money than the "cap" allows), but a bonus that the league has decided to pay to qualified veteran players.

Also, the money for this proposal came from making the rookie pool of money for each team flat. So the NFL made the very classy and smart move of taking some money that would be going to unproven rookies and gave it to veterans.

The problem will come if the NFL decides to start making exceptions that allow a team to pay money that is not charged against the cap.

On a related note--guaranteed contracts are really bad for sports leagues. It is simply bad PR when the teams in your league are fighting to trade for guys like Brandon BECAUSE he is injured and cannot play, just so they can dump the salaries of other players.

Again, I have to applaud the NFL. The balance between guaranteed signing bonuses and non-guaranteed base salaries is fair to the players but also prevents teams from making the "Vin Baker mistake."

[Samdari]

Wow, I guess I was off in thinking that by asking for 9 million a year, Arenas' agent was pricing him out of the market. 6 years 65 million with the Wizards. Good to see Les Bullez making strides towards respectability after the Jordan disaster, but this looks like another Juwon Howard contract.

http://espn.go.com/nba/news/2003/0721/1583869.html

[John Galt]

I didn't see this thread before, so I guess I'll chime in now. I've always thought the NBA cap system is superior to the NFL system for a couple reasons:

1) The NBA system is essentially a two-tiered cap system that allows greater roster continuity. There is the actual cap and then the luxury tax threshold. Yes teams can exceed the threshold, but few do and most that are over are trying to get back under. The result is that teams can spend a little more than their cap to prevent constant turnover that plagues the NFL. Still, the luxury tax prevents this process from going too far and makes teams control costs.

2) The NBA system balances the desire for dynasties with balance over the long run. The thing I hate most about the NFL system is that every team can win every year. I think this will have a severe negative effect on the league over the long run. I think the constant turnover in league champions and competitors appeals to the fairweather fan while leaving the hardcore followers in the dust. The NBA system inevitably ensures that a team pays for its costs over a longer time frame (see the Knicks), but still allows for mini-dynasties.

The benefits of roster continuity and allowing competitive balance while punishing teams for bad choices are achieved through the NBA system, but not the NFL. I'm not necessarily wedded to the idea of guaranteed contracts, but the cap itself offers the best of both worlds for me.

[oykib]

I totally disagree, Galt. The NBA system needs to be more flexible because the effect of one player on the roster is so potentially important. That's why there have been so many borderline championship teams over the years.

The Knicks, Jazz, Pacers, and Blazers have all had periods of more than ten years of contention without winning a title That's because the cap and the arcane rules for player movement have prevented them form making a move to improve their teams.

Basically, your teams in the NBA either become champions by being lucky (Spurs - lottery winner in the best year to do it), Manipulating the system (Lakers - shady cap moves that were allowed by the commisioner and manipulating other teams' draft picks out from under them), and the general cap buster of the cottail rider that signs for a fraction of his market value to try to win.

I go back to my ten championship team argument.

[Subby]

Originally posted by Samdari
Wow, I guess I was off in thinking that by asking for 9 million a year, Arenas' agent was pricing him out of the market. 6 years 65 million with the Wizards. Good to see Les Bullez making strides towards respectability after the Jordan disaster, but this looks like another Juwon Howard contract.

http://espn.go.com/nba/news/2003/0721/1583869.html Another Juwan Howard contract? How so? This is tens of millions of dollars less than Howard's "do-over" deal with the Wiz back in '96. Additionally, Arenas is the first big-name free agent to sign with the team in ages. And he plays the position where they need him the most.

Not a whole lot I kind find wrong with this deal, to be honest. After the MJ debacle, Abe Pollin has actually made moves (hiring Eddie Jordan and Ernie Grunfield, opening the checkbook for Stack and Arenas) that we have begging for around here for years. Between the Wes Unseld suckathon and the MJ Ego Trip I was beginning to wonder if we would ever have a decent team here again.

Now I have a young nucleus and an up-and-coming coach I can get excited about.

[cthomer5000]

Originally posted by John Galt
2) The NBA system balances the desire for dynasties with balance over the long run. The thing I hate most about the NFL system is that every team can win every year. I think this will have a severe negative effect on the league over the long run. I think the constant turnover in league champions and competitors appeals to the fairweather fan while leaving the hardcore followers in the dust. The NBA system inevitably ensures that a team pays for its costs over a longer time frame (see the Knicks), but still allows for mini-dynasties.

The benefits of roster continuity and allowing competitive balance while punishing teams for bad choices are achieved through the NBA system, but not the NFL. I'm not necessarily wedded to the idea of guaranteed contracts, but the cap itself offers the best of both worlds for me.

I think you will see much less rapid rising and falling in the NFL due to the new scheduling format. Within a division, teams played 14 common games of their 16. There is no more riding an easy schedule to the super bowl, because you have almost no advantage over the rest of your division.

Ever since seeing the new scheduling format, I have felt very strongly that it will help reduce the sporadic rises and falls. Time will tell.

Plus, you're making this argument after a season that completely runs contrary to your point. The Raiders were in the AFC title game in 2001, lost to the Super Bowl champ in the divisional round in 2002 (or got screwed, depending on how you look at it), and then marched on the the super bowl in 2003. The Bucs have been knocking on the Super Bowl door for 5 years.

12 teams make the playoffs in the NFL, 7 teams repeated from 2001 to 2002. Things aren't really as nutty as they seem, and again, I'm confident the scheduling will now smooth these things out.

EDIT -addition:

Teams that manage their salary caps well will be able to compete year in and year out. The Eagles are the poster boys for this type of management. You will still have the occasional team trying to "win it all" in any given season. Sometimes that gamble will work out, often it won't. I think a second-level effect of the new scheduling format will be much more attention being paid to scouting, drafting, and the step of either re-signing or parting ways with draft picks of former years. I think you'll see the popularity of top-level free agency wane.

[Iceberg]

Originally posted by Subby


Not a whole lot I kind find wrong with this deal, to be honest.


You missed the part that the wizards made it. I pity Arenas because he is doomed. The Wizards cant do anything right and even when they appear to have made a good move it turns into a complete failure. When gilbert put his name on that dotted line he doomed himself to a future of injuries, legal trouble and unfulfilled potential. However once he leaves Washington he will probably go on to be a perrenial all-star.

[cmp]

Arenas is one of the most over-rated players I have seen in a long time. The contract he was given was way to much. The Wizards will regret it.

[Samdari]

Originally posted by Subby
Another Juwan Howard contract? How so?
Paying someone WAY WAY over their value as a player, based on one good year.

[Samdari]

Originally posted by cthomer5000
I think you will see much less rapid rising and falling in the NFL due to the new scheduling format. Within a division, teams played 14 common games of their 16. There is no more riding an easy schedule to the super bowl, because you have almost no advantage over the rest of your division.

Ever since seeing the new scheduling format, I have felt very strongly that it will help reduce the sporadic rises and falls. Time will tell.

Dola

Why do you think the scheduling format is that different.

Within a division, teams have played 12 common games forever. These additional 2 common games are going to completely change the dynamic of the NFL? I don't see that. The whole 'riding an easy schedule to the super bowl' thing has always been overrated, as your finish last year has never determined more than 4 games on your schedule.

[Subby]

Originally posted by Samdari
Paying someone WAY WAY over their value as a player, based on one good year. Actually the situations were completely different, but I realize they probably look similar from afar.

The Bullets completely screwed up Juwan's initial contract. Bullets owner Abe Pollin hates David Falk so much that he went out of his way to make an example out of Howard in the summer of 1994 by refusing to give Howard the contract "slotted" for a player chosen 5th in the draft (this was before the current CBA, which limits draft picks to a rookie scale.) Pollin plays hardball and instead of the long-term deal afforded someone picked that high, Howard gets a 4-year contract with an out clause after two years.

He has a great rookie campaign, averaging 17 points and 8 rebounds and teams with new front court mate Chris Webber to bring hope the DC area. You can't underestimate hope, because the Bullets hadn't had much of that for a long time. In 95-96 they add Rasheed Wallace, but Webber goes down with a separated shoulder after 15 games and Howard becomes "the man", an all-star in his second season, he averages 22 points and 8 rebounds per game. Then he opts out of his contract.

At this point, Howard had built up about as much goodwill as any DC-area athlete had at the time. He had a high-visibilty charity. He was seen as a hard worker. Stories of his selflessness were profligate throughout the media.

So the Bullets are in a bind. They have to re-sign him or they are facing a major fan revolt. Never mind that they have Chris Webber and Rasheed Wallace on board, two of the most promising young forwards in the league. At this point, the team belonged to Juwan. And David Falk had the Bullets over a barrel. This, again, was before the current CBA, where there was no cap and basketball players were getting insane deals. David Falk who had other clients like Alonzo Mourning and Dikembe Mutombo said he was going to get 600 million in contracts for his players that summer.

The Bullets were given a chance to sign Howard and they offered about 85 million over 7 years. Essentially a low ball, but to a man like Abe Pollin, a guy who had paid a scant 1 million dollars for his franchise, this was an unheard of sum. Of course it wasn't enough. Pat Riley and the Miami Heat swooped in with Owner Mickey Arison's checkbook and sign Juwan to a 7 year 100 mill deal. They even have the press conference. Juwan is all smiles.

The DC area is absolutely glum. Once again the Bullets got out-maneuvered. They lose what they think of as their franchise player. At this point, GM John Nash and coach Jimmy Lynam have been fired and replaced with GM Wes Unseld and coach Bernie Bickerstaff. Unseld makes the first of a million horrible trades and sends Rasheed Wallace (big and young) to POR for Rod Strickland (old and small). Things are looking even worse. Then David Stern and the NBA step in and void the Howard-Miami contract. The DC area rejoices. Given a second chance, Abe Pollin is in the position where he <b>must step forward and pay Howard</b>. So he does, to the tune of 7 years, 105 million. Was it crazy money? Sure. But at the time it seemed completely reasonable. The following year they made the playoffs with Webber and Strickland and Howard, but with the lockout looming and Webber getting into trouble here and there he eventually gets shipped off for old and small Mitch Richmond. The team just gets worse and worse as the guards get older and older and Juwan gets the brunt of the blame as his contract keeps the team from making any moves. The new CBA effectively keeps a situation like Howard's from ever happening again, but at the time it was almost a harmonic convergence of forces...a communities will, a team's need, and the NBA's desires.

The Arenas deal is simply a young free agent from another team coming in after a great year and filling a need. 6 years for 65 million is nothing close to Howard's deal and the similarities aren't even close. The Wiz have no point guards on the roster. They have an opportunity to add one. They do. Did they overpay? Probably. But that's what free agency is all about. Would you rather they spent that money on the Most-Improved Player in the NBA, a guy who just happens to play the position your team needs most desperately, or are you going to sit on that money and hold out hope that KG will opt out after 2003?

Anyway, I guess if you over-simplify it you can make comparisons, but I think these two situations (and players) are completely different.

[Samdari]

I don't think I am oversimplfying it at all. I know the details you mention but don't see how they are related to the similarities I see. Each player had one great season, and a number of desperate franchises overvalued him based on that, but the Washington franchise ended up being the one to give him the big money. Much like Howard, this will be seen as a "bad contract" in a couple years, preventing them from having flexibility in player movement. Why are the details of how the franchise arrived at giving the player the bad contract relevant to that comparison when the result is the same?

[Subby]

Originally posted by Samdari
I don't think I am oversimplfying it at all. I know the details you mention but don't see how they are related to the similarities I see. Each player had one great season, and a number of desperate franchises overvalued him based on that, but the Washington franchise ended up being the one to give him the big money. Much like Howard, this will be seen as a "bad contract" in a couple years, preventing them from having flexibility in player movement. Why are the details of how the franchise arrived at giving the player the bad contract relevant to that comparison when the result is the same? Because the Bullets didn't give Howard a contract based on one good season. They gave him a contract based on a number of factors.

Yes, Arenas gets a contract based on one good season coupled with legitimate team need.

I don't know why I am even defending the Wiz, based on past actions, but I just have a good feeling about Grunfield and Co....

Of course the Wiz are in a no-win situation here. They either overpay for Arenas or they are seen as bush-league or cheap when they decide he costs too much.

[daedalus]

I think that was the longest post I've seen by Subby without donkey or midget in it.

[Samdari]

Originally posted by Subby
but I just have a good feeling about Grunfield and Co....

Of course the Wiz are in a no-win situation here. They either overpay for Arenas or they are seen as bush-league or cheap when they decide he costs too much.
I am encouraged that the Wiz have competent NBA professionals in the two most important organizational positions (coach and GM) for the first time in a very long time. I love both hires. I still hate the Arenas signing though. I think they overpaid and will regret it.

The Wiz may have felt a need to keep Howard based on other factors, but his value was driven so high based on other teams valuing of him, which was attributable to a breakout year. Those parallels between Howard and Arenas are undeniable. Howard's turned out to be a career year, and I hate the signing because I suspect Arenas' will too. But, we shall see.

[Subby]

Samdari -

I have to admit I didn't see Arenas play much last season and am just going on stats, but I am encouraged so many league execs seemed so high on him.

Either way, I see your point and look forward to seeing how the rebuilding process shapes up.

(Are you in Springfield, VA or Springfield, MA? If it is the former I am actually just up the road from you...)

[Samdari]

VA - I leave the state unspecified as Simpson's homage.

Only a recent Wiz fan though - have paid much more attention since the acquisition of Etan Thomas.

[Subby]

Originally posted by Samdari
Only a recent Wiz fan though - have paid much more attention since the acquisition of Etan Thomas. You may be the first person in history to have typed those words ;)

[Samdari]

Originally posted by Subby
You may be the first person in history to have typed those words ;)
Took Mrs Samdari to a couple games this year. There we are watching one of the greatest players of all time, and we are cheering for them to put in the backup center. Got a few funny looks.