Miami accepts? Hampton Roads Paper says so.

[digamma]

I find it a bit strange that a Hampton Roads, VA paper breaks the story, but apparently Miami has accepted the ACC offer.

Read all about it here. (http://www.dailypress.com/news/dp-mia-accbigeast,0,7142114.story?coll=dp-headlines-topnews)

[cthomer5000]

ESPN is also saying unconfirmed University sources say it will be yes.

The question now becomes who is (or is there) a 3rd invitee?

[albionmoonlight]

I think (not that it matters what I think) that there will be a third team in place by the time the new TV contract rolls around.

Does anyone know if these two extra schools will allow the ACC to expand over the vetos of Duke, NC, and a third school?

[cthomer5000]

Originally posted by albionmoonlight
Does anyone know if these two extra schools will allow the ACC to expand over the vetos of Duke, NC, and a third school?

That's what's strange. Maybe they can't expand to 12 right now... but won't Miami and Va Tech have a vote in things next year?

Even without it, I would think now that Virginia Tech is in, Virginia can say yes to any 12th team. Therefore they should be able to come up with a 7-2 vote for a 12th team.

Or they can just wait for a 9-2 vote next year.

[ScottVib]

Associated Press says Miami has officially accepted the bid to the ACC (according to ACC sources)

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/sports/colleges/6199858.htm

[Wolfpack]

I don't think there will be a third invitee just yet. With all the rumor-mongering that the NCAA is considering lowering the limit for championship games to ten teams, it may not be necessary, though it still means the ACC is an ungainly 11 rather than a neat 12.

I think the ACC will still go to 12, simply because only a CCG in football could justify sacrificing home-and-homes in one season in basketball and two seasons in football. To go to 11 and stop gets none of the added benefits of 12 and kills a lot of the benefits of 9 or 10.

The question then becomes whether they will look for a twelfth sometime over the summer (unlikely after all that's happened and they still need to get the Big East case dismissed, which shouldn't be too hard), by next spring (somewhat likely, though Miami and VT won't be members and have their voices heard on who they would want...they might "advise"), or by next fall at the latest (with Miami and VT in the fold officially and able to vote), since the ACC's TV deal for football comes due in 2005, and they would want the twelfth in place and ready to go by fall 2005 (perhaps a year delay for the football program, joining in all other sports, like FSU did in 1991) to have the leverage for the negotiations.

[ScottVib]

dola,

I've heard ND is the first plan, when the ACC is turned down by ND, then Louisville may be the backup unless the ECU alums are successful in getting the NC Government to try and stump for ECU for the 12th spot.

[Wolfpack]

ACC by-laws require 75 percent or greater approval on expansion. With 11 teams, nine votes are needed.

There is a complicating wrinkle. Say Duke continues to be stubborn mules and refuses to vote for a twelfth, even if they already expanded to 11 over Duke's objections. Remember how VT used the state legislature to bully their way into the ACC? Already the fans and supporters of East Carolina are beginning to lobby their legislators to intervene to get the Pirates into the ACC. I've noted elsewhere that the NC legislature is not above meddling in things like this. (Several eastern NC legislators, including some of the most powerful members in the legislature, "persuaded" UNC and State to play ECU in football or face some threats to their funding)

Now, if they threaten State and UNC by witholding funding if they don't support an ECU candidacy to the ACC, then if the schools caved like they did on the football game scheduling, you'd have three votes to kill any expansion candidate besides ECU (again assuming Duke remains head-up-ass on this). However, none of the none-NC schools really wants another NC school in the league as they perceive the league as too-NC centric as it is. As a result, you'd have 2-7 (or 2-9 after VT and Miami join) votes for ECU and 6-3 (or 8-3) votes for any other candidates. Impasse. They may have to change the by-laws to two-thirds in approval to circumvent this issue next time. (I just know that the ECU fans will get some headway on this. They're incredibly obnoxious about their football team, yet nowhere to be seen during basketball season, unless you see them wearing Duke or UNC colors.)

[albionmoonlight]

If the ACC presidents/ADs are smart and discuss all of the contingencies among themselves before going public, they may be able to avoid the mess that they had this time.

[Anrhydeddu]

SU should have played hardball all along. Now for its wussy efforts, they get stuck in a really bad conference, unless the Big 10+ is in the plans. Fuck the Big East.

[WSUCougar]

I have read that Penn State is disenchanted with the Big 10, and may be open to returning to the Big East. If they could pull in Louisville or Cincinnati (or obviously Notre Dame), I think they could still be a viable conference. Perhaps a longshot, but it's a possibility at least.

[tucker342]

I hate it how the politicans try to push schools in to the conference, like Virginia being forced to vote for Virginia Tech, and maybe NC schools having to vote in ECU... I think that's really lame...

[tucker342]

dola-

Miami scheduled a 4:00 ET news conference to offically announce that they are leaving the big east...

[Swaggs]

I am just glad this is all over.

Hopefully Va Tech and Miami will both make the BCS this year with all the cash going to the Big East.

[Butter]

At least the Big East won't have those 47 team conference basketball tournaments any more.

Hopefully Miami, VA Tech and another ACC school all make the BCS in 2005.

[Butter]

Dola

And Miami will win it all when their offense grabs and pulls each and every defender to the ground on the final play of the game.

[mckerney]

Miami would never get bullshit calls their way like that. Who do you think they are, Ohio State?

[MylesKnight]

Let the Shakedown Begin!!

Who's Next? Big East? Big Ten? C-USA? Mountain West? WAC? Sun Belt? MAC? Who knows, SEC or Big 12 even?

Please just get UCF into an ALL-SPORTS CONFERENCE at the end of all of this.. Preferably in the Big East or CUSA! Thank You! ;)

[Radii]

My guess is that the Big East moves pretty quickly to solidify themselves again, we've already heard about Louisville, I bet the grab Cincinnati as well, and then the big question will be do they remain an 8 team football conference with a lot of basketball only schools or do they go through a major shakedown and increase the number of football schools and drop some basketball only schools? Or perhaps they add 4 schools to become a 10 team football conference + 16 team basketball conference... it'll be interesting.

My main prediction: When all the dust has settled, Conference USA is the conference that truly gets screwed.

[Wolfpack]

I think the team with the strong position is Notre Dame at this point. The Big East, ACC, and Big 10 will all come calling for them. They can see if any of those three have anything to offer. The Big 10 and ACC aren't likely to be accomodating to any strenuous demands by ND (i.e. keeping of TV revenues, less-than-full conference schedules, etc). However, the Big East at this point may do so. The ND admins realize the Big East is over the barrel, I'm sure. The Big East would be pretty much willing to give ND what they want just so long as the Big East could claim that ND was a football member, allowing them to keep a spot in the BCS in the process. ND will still likely stay independent, though, as long as NBC is willing to cozy up to them for TV rights.

[Anrhydeddu]

I bet the grab Cincinnati as well

Why would they do something stupid like this???

[Easy Mac]

b/c the Bengals are outmatched in the NFL, and it'd be another Rutgers for the Big Least

[Radii]

Actually I remembered their name coming up a lot somewhere, it was the page MylesKnight had posted awhile ago listing tons of conference shakedown scenarios by school...

http://clearstage.com/collegesportsinfo/grid/

Of the teams listed in potential big east expansion Louisville and Cincinnati seem to be the most promising to me. I don't think ECU has that much to offer, and does Marshall even have a basketball team? Of course they could also go with one of the Florida teams as well.

[Fritz]

The Daily Press is a poor paper.

[ScottVib]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
Why would they do something stupid like this???

Cincy's been to a few bowl games recently, is a decent market and Huggins and the basketball team are a nice bonus. Three straight bowl games for Cincy and have 6 winning seasons the last 8 years, they are the defending Conference USA co-champs.

There just isn't much out there to choose from if your the Big East football conference now... and Cincy is one of the best of a bad lot.

[Marmel]

Cinci and Louisville would be good pickups for the Big East, but beyond those two teams, there really are no other schools worth pursuing.

I have seen Army/Navy (for the tradition and the strong fan base)and a few Florida Directional Schools (to keep Florida open for recruiting and the markets) mentioned but none of those schools are really going to help.

Also, after seeing what has already transprired, I would be quite surprised if the Big East did move fast on this. We (we being various college messageboards I read) have speculated on these recent events for at least two years now. If we saw it coming how did the Big East not see it and not do anything to prevent it (at least try to prevent it)? The Big East has shown they are not willing to move quickly on anything....maybe they have learned their lesson? In addition, some of these schools might now be hesistant about moving to this new Big East conference without Miami in it. If the Big East had offered these schools a year or two ago, Miami might still be around and the conference would be on very solid ground.

[Anrhydeddu]

I'm just focusing on football, which is what financially drives the conferences (does it not?). Without Miami and VT, the Big East's prestige falls way, way down. Louisville and Cincinnati add almost nothing, only ND and/or Penn State can replace UM. (Despite the statement from the Big East saying that it is still an elite conference. Without the football powers, that is a joke.)

[cthomer5000]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
Why would they do something stupid like this???

Because the Big East acutally cares about maintaining it's basketball conference. Their ideal setup would be 16 members:

8 football/basketball members
8 basketball only members

Louisville and Cincy are respectable football additions and solid basketball additions.

[Swaggs]

Although the Big East is obviously no longer one of the elite conferences, I still think having Pitt, WVU, Syracuse, and BC makes them the most deserving conference for the last BCS spot.

I think the issue will probably be are they good enough to keep that last BCS, or will it become another wild card spot (ie: another Notre Dame chance). Conference USA and the WAC or Mountain West are still not as good as a conference with those four schools in it.

[scooper]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
I'm just focusing on football, which is what financially drives the conferences (does it not?). Without Miami and VT, the Big East's prestige falls way, way down. Louisville and Cincinnati add almost nothing, only ND and/or Penn State can replace UM. (Despite the statement from the Big East saying that it is still an elite conference. Without the football powers, that is a joke.)

Louisville has a stronger program than you seem to give them credit for. As for Cincinnati, I live here and I am unique in that I despise the Thuggins regime in college basketball, but I really like UC football. I catch a game or two a year. They play exciting football, they're competetive within their league, they just can't get the people around here to care or get over that hump.

[SunDancer]

What about South Florida's potential. Every one says UCF, but South Florida has a major-market in Florida, and has the facilites to compete. Outside of Football at UCF, not sure how they would make the jump.

[Easy Mac]

I don't see the ACC adding a Florida school. 3 schools in Florida would disrupt the NC contingents power base, and threaten their hold on the conference.

[SunDancer]

I meant for the Big East.

[albionmoonlight]

Here's an off the wall suggestion. Vandy moves to the ACC (where it is more of a natural fit with Duke and Wake Forest than it is in the SEC) and the SEC takes Louisville (a natural rival with Kentucky) to stay at 12. Vandy does not have strong athletics, but it has the Nashville market, is in the ACC "footprint," and is a strong academic school--giving the ACC more of an indentity in that direction. And I think that given the choice to join the SEC over the ACC or Big East, Louisville would want to make that move. The Big East still has teams like Marshall, ECU, Cinn., UCF, Penn State, Notre Dame, etc. to take and stay competitive. Finally, the SEC would lose a school that did not have a top 25 basketball and football program and replace it with one that does.

Why couldn't this work?

[Butter]

Why would Notre Dame or Penn State want to join the Big East?

Judging from the talk in most official publications, they are contacting C-USA and the Atlantic 10 only so far. We should all just consider this Penn State and Notre Dame talk the talk of dreamers wishing their now C-USA level conference back to the status of a power. I don't see it.

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by albionmoonlight
Here's an off the wall suggestion. Vandy moves to the ACC (where it is more of a natural fit with Duke and Wake Forest than it is in the SEC) and the SEC takes Louisville (a natural rival with Kentucky) to stay at 12. Vandy does not have strong athletics, but it has the Nashville market, is in the ACC "footprint," and is a strong academic school--giving the ACC more of an indentity in that direction. And I think that given the choice to join the SEC over the ACC or Big East, Louisville would want to make that move. The Big East still has teams like Marshall, ECU, Cinn., UCF, Penn State, Notre Dame, etc. to take and stay competitive. Finally, the SEC would lose a school that did not have a top 25 basketball and football program and replace it with one that does.

Why couldn't this work?

I would love that, but as much as Vandy can't compete in the SEC they aren't looking to leave that I've seen.

[Anrhydeddu]

Originally posted by Butter_of_69
Why would Notre Dame or Penn State want to join the Big East?

Judging from the talk in most official publications, they are contacting C-USA and the Atlantic 10 only so far. We should all just consider this Penn State and Notre Dame talk the talk of dreamers wishing their now C-USA level conference back to the status of a power. I don't see it.

But Big East says that they are an elite conference still??? :rolleyes:

I would compare them more closely to the MWC (which obviously I am familiar with), which will get them little prestige when it comes to bowl games (Outback at best, Silicon Bowl as typical). Despite those pimping for Louisville and Cincinnati, those are third-tier football programs, much like what's leftover in the Big East. To say that they are anything more than that is just wishful thinking. Big East seems to be in the denial stage right now and I am hoping that SU will just bide their time and wait for the ACC invite as the 12th team.

[scooper]

I'll repeat what I said above, Louisville's a better football program than you give them credit for. They're no Miami, but they have talent, a stadium and a fan base on par with what's left of the Big East. Whatever move they make will probably coincide with the signing of phenom QB Brian Brohm. They have a decent TV market and a top 15 basketball program. If you really think Louisville's not attractive, watch the ACC fight for them for that 12th slot.

[Anrhydeddu]

they have talent, a stadium and a fan base on par with what's left of the Big East.

I fully agree and that's my point. You lose a top-tier team in Miami and second-tier in VT and you replace it with a runner-up teams just like WVU.

In looking at Louisvill in the past 20 seasons, I see

1983 3 8 0 .273 157 351
1984 2 9 0 .182 237 360
1985 2 9 0 .182 199 429
1986 3 8 0 .273 179 303
1987 3 7 1 .318 215 348
1988 8 3 0 .727 261 245
1989 6 5 0 .545 312 222
1990 10 1 1 .875 345 149
1991 2 9 0 .182 135 335
1992 5 6 0 .455 214 243
1993 9 3 0 .750 350 243
1994 6 5 0 .545 255 253
1995 7 4 0 .636 283 165
1996 5 6 0 .455 179 221
1997 1 10 0 .091 245 407
1998 7 5 0 .583 473 435
1999 7 5 0 .583 443 365
2000 9 3 0 .750 405 268
2001 11 2 0 .846 394 223
2002 7 6 0 .538 374 319


5 good seasons out 20 (compare that to SU). Maybe they will have much better success in the future, but everyone says that. I don't mean to pick on Louisville specifically but it proves my point of the Big East just looking to maintain the same level of competition as with what's leftover - not improving or raising their status back up (which have fallen hard). To me, either SU has to leave or they get Penn State and/or ND in for football.

[Butter]

My personal hope is that SU ends up in the Big Ten. Notre Dame and Pitt can go suck a tailpipe.

[Anrhydeddu]

Originally posted by Butter_of_69
My personal hope is that SU ends up in the Big Ten. Notre Dame and Pitt can go suck a tailpipe.

That truly would be the most ideal scenario (with being ACC #12 as the runner-up). Where they are right now really, really sucks (and they know that).

[scooper]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu

5 good seasons out 20 (compare that to SU). Maybe they will have much better success in the future, but everyone says that. I don't mean to pick on Louisville specifically but it proves my point of the Big East just looking to maintain the same level of competition as with what's leftover - not improving or raising their status back up (which have fallen hard). To me, either SU has to leave or they get Penn State and/or ND in for football.

But they are in a string of good seasons, with the talent pipeline running better than it ever has. They have relatively new facilities and the athletics program is hitting on all cylinders right now. When you look to fill an open slot in a conference, often you have to pick teams from a lower conference, but you look for a program that has the potential to step up. I think of the possibilities for the Big East, Louisville is the program most suited to raise their level of talent and competition. (For the record, I'm not a Louiville shill. I'm looking at this as an outsider)

As for Penn St. and ND, the Big East has no chance at either of those programs for football.

[Marmel]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
Big East seems to be in the denial stage right now and I am hoping that SU will just bide their time and wait for the ACC invite as the 12th team.


You have a bleak outlook.

First of all, not if the ACC got on their hands and knees and kissed SU's ass would they ever, ever, ever even consider the ACC. End of story, and I am glad.

2nd, within the teams that are left you have SU, Pitt and BC that forms a very solid core. All at least equal to the Jokies. Obviously there is no Miami in the mix, but there are not many Miami's out there. Pitt, SU, WVU, BC all had good football programs before Miami, and I am fairly confident they will have good football programs after Miami.

The administrations of some of these schools are quite diligent and will work hard to recover from the loss of Miami. There are some creative suggestions being thrown around and I am sure a variety of them will be in the final mix. The BE will keep the BCS bid until the BCS contract runs out....from there who knows what the football landscape will look like. Teams will rise and teams will fall in the next few years. Personally, I believe Pitt is at a stage where they can really breakout and become a powerhouse team.

Of course, I also think SU and Pitt would jump at a Big Ten invite, but I doubt that is in either school's future as I don't see them expanding, especially is the CCG is allowed with less than 12 teams. FTR, Notre Dame will never go to the Big 10, and it is more unlikely they will go to the ACC now that Miami is there. It is also doubtful they will go to this new BE, but if they do join a conference, that would be the one.

[Marmel]

dola...

For those of you who are interested, here is a transcript of a SU teleconference with Cancellor Shaw and the AD.

SU lucky to have these men in charge at this time (http://www.suathletics.com/News/basketball/mbasket/2003/6/30/chancellorjake630.asp?path=mbasket)

[Easy Mac]

With the exception of Syracuse, they had good football teams for a year (don't give me the Pitt was good in the 80's, that was 20 years ago). But none of those teams put together could be consistently BCS worth. I like Rich Rodriguez, he should be the coach at Clemson instead of Bowden2, but I woudn't say WVU has a good program, they had a good team for a year, hughe difference.

[Marmel]

I don't know Easy, Miami beign in the conference hurt some of these teams as much as it helped. Outside of Miami's probation years it was pretty damn tough, even with a great football team to get by Miami and win the Big East. If I recall correctly, only VTech and Syracuse really made any noise other than Miami, and that was mostly in Miami's probation/down years. Without Miami in the picture, there is now a chance for some of these teams to step it up with a real legit chance of winning the conference, going to the BCS and getting that exposure that brings in recruits, which in turn propels a program forward even more.

In the past, when you think Big East, you think Miami, now there is a window of opportunity for a couple of teams to step it up. Pitt, coming off a fine season, with some great recruiting and spectacular new facilities and a new dedication to its athletics is my pick for the team to do it. We will have to wait and see though.

[Anrhydeddu]

The BE will keep the BCS bid until the BCS contract runs out....

And that would make the BCS more of a joke than it is.

Pitt and BC that forms a very solid core

Pitt the past 20 years


1983 8 3 1 .708 288 165
1984 3 7 1 .318 178 247
1985 5 5 1 .500 202 187
1986 6 4 1 .591 253 209
1987 8 4 0 .667 230 146
1988 6 5 0 .545 300 183
1989 9 3 1 .731 367 281
1990 3 7 1 .318 240 293
1991 6 5 0 .545 244 241
1992 3 9 0 .250 289 429
1993 3 8 0 .273 168 371
1994 3 8 0 .273 246 307
1995 2 9 0 .182 217 329
1996 4 7 0 .364 214 430
1997 6 6 0 .500 333 354
1998 2 9 0 .182 234 334
1999 5 6 0 .455 281 278
2000 7 5 0 .583 296 247
2001 7 5 0 .583 296 245
2002 9 4 0 .692 331 232


Since their glory years of 1976-1983, that's pretty bleak (even though they had a fairly good season last year).

And for BC...


1983 9 3 0 .750 351 190
1984 10 2 0 .833 449 296
1985 4 8 0 .333 222 307
1986 9 3 0 .750 338 233
1987 5 6 0 .455 244 281
1988 3 8 0 .273 237 326
1989 2 9 0 .182 207 253
1990 4 7 0 .364 190 288
1991 4 7 0 .364 247 246
1992 8 3 1 .708 330 238
1993 9 3 0 .750 408 240
1994 7 4 1 .625 271 169
1995 4 8 0 .333 207 322
1996 5 7 0 .417 264 364
1997 4 7 0 .364 237 314
1998 4 7 0 .364 273 311
1999 8 4 0 .667 297 308
2000 7 5 0 .583 378 277
2001 8 4 0 .667 337 227
2002 9 4 0 .692 392 253


About the same as Louisville. Three fairly good seasons in the last 4 but nothing to shout about.

Pitt, BC and Louisville may make a solid core but it's a rather small ball.

[Anrhydeddu]

dola

www.michigan-football.com is a really good site for records. I had not come across that one before.

[SunDancer]

Could Big East try to get UMass and Villanova to jump up from 1-AA? I think they need to kickout Temple and Rutgers, while you lose them, you lose the deadweights.

[Marmel]

A-

Those last 20 year stats really do not mean a thing right now. The Big East is trying to create a viable future The last 5 years of those teams show that there is a potential future in there.

[cthomer5000]

Originally posted by SunDancer
Could Big East try to get UMass and Villanova to jump up from 1-AA? I think they need to kickout Temple and Rutgers, while you lose them, you lose the deadweights.

That's a questionable call on Rutgers. While the football program is only presumably on the rise, the baseball team is excellent, the soccer team is excellent. The women's programs are excellent, and the men's basketball team is geinuinely on the brink. They're only dead weight in football, and they could change as soon as this year.

[Anrhydeddu]

Marm, I think a viable future depends upon prestige, ratings and marketability (in other words: $$$). Most of the Big East leftovers do not have any prestige or marketability beyond their local market. BC lost its rivalry with UM but still has ND. Outside NY, Pennsylvania and West Virginia, no one else will care about the Big East anymore in football - and the networks know that. It losts it's national viability and I don't want SU on a sinking ship.

[cthomer5000]

The more I think about it, the more I think the Big East's run as a power conference is done. I really think they should focus on becoming a 16 team conference, with 8 basketball only members. That way they stay solid, if not become the best conference, in the #2 money sport, but they may be able to put themselves in a good position to become a solid football conference.

my proposal:

football/basketball
U-Conn
Rutgers
Syracuse
Boston College
West Virginia
Pitt
Lousiville
Cincinnati

basketball only
Providence
Villanova
St John's
Seton Hall
Notre Dame
Georgetown

2 of the following 3:
Marquette
Dayton
Xavier

[Marmel]

A-

Why did ACC want BC and Syracuse? for the Boston and New York Markets.

It does not matter if the nation wants to see these teams, but with 54,000,000 people in the Northeast corridor, there is a market for sure. I honestly think there is a market in the Northeast for Northeast football. The thing is, we don't care about teams outside of the area, at all, but we will watch the 'local' teams quite religiously. And even if a small percentage of the total population watch, that small percentage still tunrs into a big number based on population.

I think it is clear that the ACC did not really want VPI, but saw it as the only way to get Miami. As I heard floated around, 5% of the New York market is better than 50% of the Virginia market.

[albionmoonlight]

A--

I understand your concern, but I think that SU's combination of academic excellence, and competitiveness in men's basketball and football and links to the NYC market will give you enough leverage to move to another BCS conference and/or attract others to the Big East. You would have gone to the ACC but for the Virgina legislature and that weirdness. I can't say for sure, but I think that you will be fine when all of the dust settles.

[Marmel]

Originally posted by cthomer5000
The more I think about it, the more I think the Big East's run as a power conference is done. I really think they should focus on becoming a 16 team conference, with 8 basketball only members. That way they stay solid, if not become the best conference, in the #2 money sport, but they may be able to put themselves in a good position to become a solid football conference.

my proposal:

football/basketball
U-Conn
Rutgers
Syracuse
Boston College
West Virginia
Pitt
Lousiville
Cincinnati

basketball only
Providence
Villanova
St John's
Seton Hall
Notre Dame
Georgetown

2 of the following 3:
Marquette
Dayton
Xavier


I would doubt that ct.....read what Tranghese had to say,

Worst Commissioner Ever? (http://www.southbendtribune.com/stories/2003/07/01/sports.20030701-sbt-MICH-B1-What_now_for_Big_Eas.sto)

The football schools hate this guy and hate what he did not even try to prevent. I will be surprised if the football schools do not break away from him and his basketball conference.

On the other hand, if they are able to get rid of Tranghese, and get a competant commish, your plan may be viable.

[Butter]

Originally posted by cthomer5000
2 of the following 3:
Marquette
Dayton
Xavier

Oooh, oooh! Dayton, Dayton!!!!

;)

[Anrhydeddu]

I think it is clear that the ACC did not really want VPI, but saw it as the only way to get Miami. As I heard floated around, 5% of the New York market is better than 50% of the Virginia market.

That's good and the basis for why I do not discount SU going to the ACC (political shit aside). This would easily keep SU viable with its rivalry with UM (and create new ones) and certainly would be exciting for basketball to be in the same conference as Duke and UNC.

Despite the demographics, there is no national exposure anymore for the Big East leftovers and that's all that matters when it comes to the BCS bowls and national TV coverage. Like you said, SU can bring in at least 5% of NY (which would attractive to any elite conference, BCS and bowls), so why be content on just keeping that regional?

[Daimyo]

I don't think SU has to worry much as long as they aren't indecisive. Some power conference will want what they can bring.

[Marmel]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
That's good and the basis for why I do not discount SU going to the ACC (political shit aside). This would easily keep SU viable with its rivalry with UM (and create new ones) and certainly would be exciting for basketball to be in the same conference as Duke and UNC.

Despite the demographics, there is no national exposure anymore for the Big East leftovers and that's all that matters when it comes to the BCS bowls and national TV coverage. Like you said, SU can bring in at least 5% of NY (which would attractive to any elite conference, BCS and bowls), so why be content on just keeping that regional?


If you read that article I posted you will see there is no way we will ever go to the ACC. None....and most fans are glad at this point. It hink I would rather go independant than join the ACC.

[vtbub]

What about SU, BC and Pitt joining the Big 10?

[Anrhydeddu]

Originally posted by Marmel
If you read that article I posted you will see there is no way we will ever go to the ACC. None....and most fans are glad at this point. It hink I would rather go independant than join the ACC.

Never say never. With the right amount of persuasion ($$$), SU will jump ship, esp. if Miami has the clout. The fans don't get a vote.

I would not mind SU going independent for football (if anyone besides ND does that anymore). That's certainly better than remaining in the Big East, imo. In the old days, weren't SU and Penn State independents, including when SU won the national championship?

[Marmel]

OK, as long as Jake and Buzz are in charge, SU will not be going to the ACC. By the time they retire (3-5+ years), I think the ACC will already have a 12th team.

The problem with independant status is scheduling. Once conference play starts, who is SU going to schedule? Besides Notre Dame there are no independants worth scheduling. Maybe if the remaining Big East teams all went independant, but kept a loose association for scheduling each other.....but then why not just stay in the conference. Plus, what about all the other sports? Are you suggesting just going independant for football, and remaining a participant in the big East for basketball and the non-revenue sports? I am sure that will be talked about, but it just goes back to the scheduling problems.

Also, an independant has zero bowl tie-ins. A Poulon Weed-Eater bowl is still better than no bowl for a 8-4 Syracuse football team in the Big East compared to a 9-3 or 10-2 Syracuse football team as an independant.

[Marmel]

dola (I keep thinking of other things after I post)

If you have been following along, you will see that Miami went from having all the clout in the Big East to having Zero clout in the ACC. All the power in the ACC is on tobacco road, as should be blatantly clear now (well, I guess in the Virginia government as well).

[Anrhydeddu]

I don't know. Miami could be their only BCS-capable team (and potentially, it's biggest money-maker) so that could give them enough clout to overcome the basketball-centric mindset.

[Marmel]

Duke and UNC would not even vote for Miami in this latest round of expansion, knowing full well that FSU was in danger of losing the ACC's BCS bid. Even with 11 teams, unless the bylaws of the ACC change, it will still only take 2 no votes to strike anythnig down. You can rest assured UNC and Duke will supply those 2 votes, especially for a northern team like SU.

[MylesKnight]

Here's my question, something that I haven't heard mentioned at all... What happens with Temple?

The agreement with Temple to leave Big East Football and add Connecticut was made before all of this ACC Mumbo Jumbo began.

Now that Miami & VT are gone and the Big East is down a couple of schools, would the Big East reconsider keeping Temple, this time as an all-sports member? We all know Temple Basketball is quite a gem, regardless of how they've fared these last couple of seasons. Could Temple Basketball and the fact the Big East is in a bit of a needy situation get the Owls into the Conference as a Full-Fledged Member?

Here's how the Big East Football Conference looks now...


Boston College
Pittsburgh
Rutgers
Syracuse
Temple (leaving in '04?)
West Virginia

...now, the league will add UConn for Football in '04 I believe. Why not give keep Temple, add Louisville, and there you go. You keep the same number of teams you had before all of this began (8 for Football, 13 for All-Sports), you keep Notre Dame and their Big East Football "Affiliation" that currently exists, and you keep your BCS Bid.

The only real negative I see is there is really no standout Football Program among this group. Sure, Pittsbugh, Louisville and depending on the year, BC, Syracuse and West Virginia are fringe Top 25 Programs, but where is the consistent National Power?

Notre Dame (unfortunately ;)) would fit that bill, but how would the Big East Football Playing Schools feel if ND consistently took the Conference's BCS Bid because of their "tie in" with the league that currently exists for Football? I don't think they'd be happy about it at all and things would change quickly.


One other note while I'm here. :D I think a lot of you are misinformed (or shall I say just ignorant) when it comes to UCF and USF as strong possibilities. These Universities are both in the Top 20 in terms of size in all of America. Academically, they actually don't trail the University of Florida (which is consistently rated as one of top Public Universities in America by many sources) by much at all (UF's Tradition is what gives them the edge in this, as UCF and USF are both fairly new Universities). Add to that the fact that UCF and USF have come a long way in a very short period of time in I-A Football, and they both have the ability to get the kind of $$$ necessary to compete on the major stage of Division I-A Athletics with that $$$ only increasing in time as both schools grow in age and in stature.

Add to that the fact that a Conference like the Big East needs a foothold in the state of Florida for recruiting purposes (and this is true for those of you who may question this comment, just check out how the MAC and CUSA schools have increased Recruiting tenfold in the state since UCF and USF joined those respective Conferences for Football).

The old "Directional School" argument is really tired. If you actually took the time to research there two Universites, you'd see what I'm talking about.

Now would either of them come in and dominate the Big East Conference right away? No way.. But, in terms of the future, you really would be hard pressed to find a school with more potential outside of the University of Louisville.

As for UCF in particular, Football would compete right away and only get better, Baseball would be very strong, Women's Sports would be very strong outside of Hoops right away, and all other Men's Sports outside of Hoops would compete well..

Men's & Women's Basketball would be the two things that would definitely need the most work, but if you took a look at what UCF is doing in terms of upgrading those programs, you'd see why they would definitely be worth the risk. A new 10,000+ seat On-Campus Arena is on the way, $$ is being spent to build a new Sports Training Facility which will be done within the year and we have ourselves an Athletic Director whose stated goal is to get this University into the big time level of Division I-A Athletics and is doing whatever it takes to take the steps to make this happen with the unwavering support of the University Brass.

(Rambling Finished) :D

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by Marmel
Even with 11 teams, unless the bylaws of the ACC change, it will still only take 2 no votes to strike anythnig down. You can rest assured UNC and Duke will supply those 2 votes, especially for a northern team like SU.

Doesn't it take 3 votes to reject a proposal in the ACC?

I though UNC and Duke both voted against the expansion that just happened, with UVA as the third and ultimately deciding potential "no" vote.

[vtbub]

Maybe the Big East should recruit tobacco road;)

[Marmel]

Originally posted by QuikSand
Doesn't it take 3 votes to reject a proposal in the ACC?

I though UNC and Duke both voted against the expansion that just happened, with UVA as the third and ultimately deciding potential "no" vote.

You are correct, it is 3. My bad.

Makes you wonder why, once Virginia's hands were untied, SU or BC still did not have the votes necessary. Somebody from Tobacco Road is voting with UNC/Duke I guess.

[SirFozzie]

Marmel: NC State changed their mind on BC/Syracuse at the last minute (reportedly, it would have been BC to get the third invite), and that doomed everything

[MylesKnight]

But the Million Dollar Question is just how long do newcomers Miami & Virginia Tech have to wait before getting a vote in these matter?

(Posting this for clarification, forgive me if someone has already pointed all of this earlier). I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, the ACC requires a 75% majority in regards to expansion and individual schools. Now 7 out of the current 9 would be 78%, but when the League expands to 11 and if Miami & VT get votes on the matter, it would require a 9 out 11 vote as 8 out of 11 is only roughly 73%.

Now, this rule could change now that the league has 11 Members, but it may not..

If it does stay that way we would be in the same situation where we were before where the N.C. Coalition aka Duke and UNC would need only 1 school to go along with them to veto any option brought to the table that they did not like. And with all the differing opinions that seem to exist in the ACC, I don't think that would be too difficult.

Getting School #12 into the Conference could be a helluvan affair.

[Bee]

I think UCF would be a good fit for the Big East. Something that we might see is the Big East try to get to 12 teams so they could have a championship game. Keep Temple, add UConn, Louisville, UCF, USF, Cinci, & Marshall. While none of the teams are currently national powerhouses in football, we've seen that these things can change a great deal over relatively short periods of time. It wasn't that long ago that VTech was a mediocre football school and people were predicting the death of Miami football.

[Wolfpack]

MK: You are correct. It will take nine of eleven for expansion in an 11-team ACC.

If expansion consideration is made before July 1, 2004, it'll be seven of nine current ACC members as it is now. After that, Miami and VT are aboard and would have full priviledges to vote (AFAIK).

I outlined above that getting a twelfth is far from a done deal with the likes of ECU perhaps pressuring the NC legislature to get them in. (God forbid)

[MylesKnight]

Thanks for the clarification Wolfpack..

Very interesting comments about the whole ECU/ACC situation. Yes I do remember hearing about the fuss the NC Legislature made about the in-state ACC Schools scheduling ECU for Football a few years ago.

This is a whole different ballgame we're talking about now though. 5 Schools from 1 State in a Major Conference? And, add to that the fact that the ACC Basketball folks would not be happy about a third shall we say "Lackluster Hoops Program" being invited into the Conference..

I think Louisville is a very intriging possibility, although geographically at least, it doesn't make too much sense for what is a pretty compact Conference. Keep in mind though, Miami isn't exactly real close to the rest of the Conference either.. Anyone ever made the trip from Miami to Tallahassee or Miami to Atlanta by car? You know what I'm talking about..

The ACC may have to work quickly though if Louisville is a consideration. Regardless of what the Big East has said recently, I don't see them sitting around and letting their Football League run with only 6 teams in 2004.. and we all know Louisville is basically just waiting on the phone call as we speak.

The other intriging possibility for the ACC is South Carolina. Now this is a perfect geographical fit with outstanding support. Talk about your avid fans, these folks sell out Williams-Brice Stadium in Columbia year after year regardless how well the Football Team is performing.. Remember that 0-for Season a few years back? USC Basketball is up and down but I would say is at the very least on par with Miami and better than Virginia Tech.

That brings up a whole new issue though, what if South Carolina left the SEC for the ACC? Where would the SEC turn then? One of the CUSA schools? USF or UCF? Or dare I say maybe even the University of Texas out of the Big 12?

And what if it was Texas (although I don't see Texas making any move whatsoever without Texas A&M a part of the equation as well)? What would the Big 12 do?

And what about the Big 10? When will they finally offer someone out there that 12th spot and who will that be?

And let's not forget about the Mountain West Conference possibly expanding one of these days, very well by taking a school or two (or possibly more) from the WAC. Then what does the WAC do? And what about the Sun Belt Conference?

Man, the whole domino effect of all of this could be absolutely incredible.

[Anrhydeddu]

It may be a domino effect in the short term but I see a merging effect being much more important in the long term.

[MylesKnight]

Merging? As in.... Please Continue.

[Anrhydeddu]

East = ACC + BE

South = SEC + CUSA

MidWest = B10 + MAC

West = B12 + WAC

Pacific = P10 + MWC

[scooper]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
East = ACC + BE

South = SEC + CUSA

MidWest = B10 + MAC

West = B12 + WAC

Pacific = P10 + MWC

[Cue Imperial March: duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh]

Don't forget

National=ND ;)

[Buzzbee]

South Carolina might be a good fit for the ACC, geographically and rivalry wise (Clemson). However, I hope and PRAY that the ACC is smart enough not to go after a school in the SEC. Why? If the SEC loses a school, where are they MOST likely to turn? Florida State or Clemson. So in effect, the ACC would swap Florida State for South Carolina. Not a good move.

[MylesKnight]

Interesting thought Buzzbee. The SEC is the true Cream of the Crop when it comes to Football & Athletics $$$ Generated.

I would assume the ACC would make sure their schools signed something stating they would not leave the ACC for the SEC if their league was to take a school from the SEC. That is, if they learned from the mistakes of the Big East. Get things in WRITING!!

Interesting thought though and definitely something to consider. Would a school like FSU rather be in a Conference with Florida or one with Miami if it came down to it?

Could you imagine a SEC Eastern Division with Florida, Florida State, Georgia and Tennessee for Football? WOW!

[Buzzbee]

Originally posted by MylesKnight
Interesting thought Buzzbee. The SEC is the true Cream of the Crop when it comes to Football & Athletics $$$ Generated.

I would assume the ACC would make sure their schools signed something stating they would not leave the ACC for the SEC if their league was to take a school from the SEC. That is, if they learned from the mistakes of the Big East. Get things in WRITING!!

Interesting thought though and definitely something to consider. Would a school like FSU rather be in a Conference with Florida or one with Miami if it came down to it?

Could you imagine a SEC Eastern Division with Florida, Florida State, Georgia and Tennessee for Football? WOW!

And to take it a step further, what if the SEC were to woo Florida State and Clemson from the ACC and then boot Vandy and Ole Miss. It might look something like this:

East:

Florida
Florida State
Georgia
South Carolina
Clemson
Kentucky

West:

Tennessee
Auburn
Alabama
LSU
Arkansas
Miss. State


That's pretty scary. Adding Tennesee to the West and Florida State to the Ease would make both of them pretty damn scary.

[Wolfpack]

Well, the ACC, unlike the Big East, has a hellacious penalty for leaving the conference. It's 75% reduction in revenue in the final year, plus a proportionate percentage of ACC property (or something like that). If FSU left in 2004 and the numbers in 2003 were the same as 2002, that would be roughly $7.3 million taken away.

Also, USuCk burned a lot of bridges when they left in 1971. Hard to tell if the new blood (GT, FSU, VT, Miami) could convince any of the old-liners it's worth bringing them back anyway. Also, why would South Carolina want to leave a league like the SEC? About the only thing I can think of would be travel, as they are on the periphery of the SEC but would practically be smack in the middle of the ACC.

[Wolfpack]

dola (maybe),

I've been on some of the FSU boards and most fans there said if they wanted into the SEC, they'd want to be in the West rather than the East, since by a quirk of geography, other than Arkansas, they're pretty close to most of the West teams. (Though I haven't checked to verify that fact...just supposition)

[digamma]

With South Carolina, the bad blood goes both ways. The Gamecocks hate all things ACC.

[Buzzbee]

Originally posted by Wolfpack
dola (maybe),

I've been on some of the FSU boards and most fans there said if they wanted into the SEC, they'd want to be in the West rather than the East, since by a quirk of geography, other than Arkansas, they're pretty close to most of the West teams. (Though I haven't checked to verify that fact...just supposition)

I was thinking in terms of keeping the FSU/Florida rivalry. Putting FSU in the east would maintain the rivalry game. I think they would be forced to rotate if FSU were in the West.

[MylesKnight]

Actually the way SEC Football Scheduling is set up, UF & FSU would still be able to keep their rivalry intact each and every season if they were placed in opposite divisions.

The way it works is each SEC Team plays 8 Conference Games.. 1 against each fellow Divisional School (5), 1 against a pre-determined Rival School from the opposite Division (1), and 2 against any of the other 5 schools from the opposite Division, with this rotating I believe every 2 years (2)..

This is why Tennessee/Alabama and Georgia/Auburn are still played every year. (Who lucked out and got Vandy anyway.. I believe it was Ole Miss). The others I believe are, Florida/LSU (Ouch LSU!), Arkansas/South Carolina (the Two Newbies), and Kentucky/Mississippi State (the Huge Rivalry that is :D).

[Buzzbee]

I stand corrected.

[lynchjm24]

To me the best Big East option at this point is to cut ties with the basketball schools. Keeping some crazy confederation of 13-16 teams all pulling in opposite directions will be a problem again on down the line.

I'd take the 6 that are left:
Syracuse
BC
Connecticut
Rutgers
Pittsburgh
West Virginia

Add the following no-brainers:
Louisville
Central Florida

Then add 2 of the following:
Marshall
South Florida
Cincinnati
Temple

I'd miss my annual journey to the Garden, but the simple joy of kicking the crap out of Syracuse every fall would make up for it :).

[Swaggs]

I think the following would be a pretty nice conference:

Syracuse
BC
Connecticut
Rutgers
Pittsburgh
West Virginia
Louisville
Cincinnati
South Florida
Central Florida

The first four teams are pretty close geographically, as are the second four. I would think it would be wise to grab both Florida schools, to minimize the risk if one fails and to give them a natural rival to build upon.

[ScottVib]

Agree with Swaggs... if they go to 12 then you take Temple (Philly market, decent in hoops, and a natural fit, plus Rutgers needs someone they can compete with ;) ) and perhaps UMass after an upgrade to 1-A (which is being discussed, Villanova had the same offer the UConn is taking advantage of to join the football conference and declined). If not UMass then you grab Marshall (after placating West Virginia).

It'll be a good, actually one of the best, conferences for Basketball (Calhoun apparently has been talking to Huggins of Cincy and both are allegedly excited about possibly being a part of (as they put it) the top hoops conference in the land) and while not at the level of the 5 "top" conferences in football, it's just below them hanging in as the 6th best conference in the land (only down one spot from their previous "5th" ranking) and if SU can rebuild and rebound, Pitt continues to develop, and Louisville continues to pump money into its programs then the league will likely to continue to improve and grow. (BC will still be a solid (not spectacular) program, West Virginia will mix in a few good years with a group of average seasons, UConn is growing, Cincy's been good of late, and the Florida Schools' are growing, and Rutgers is still there, if they went to 12 they'd pick up Temple who's actually improved the last season or two, and either an upgrading UMass program or a very good Marshall football program)

Commissioner Tranghese has kept things above board (unlike the ACC) and has already contacted both the Conference USA commissioner and the Atlantic Ten's commissioner to give them a heads up that the Big East may be looking at some of their teams. It will be really interesting to see how things shake out after the last dominoe has fallen.