AL Gov's Tax Plan and Republican Reaction

[JPhillips]

I had missed most of this, but I recently found out about Riley's plan to restructure the AL tax code to put more of the burden on the wealthy and large corporations, especially those that own a huge amount of land. For those of you that may not know, Riley is a Republican who describes himself as a Reaganite.

The really interesting part of this is that Riley says he is doing this because of his deep faith in Christ. He believes that the AL tax code unfairly burdens the poor and Christian faith demands that this be remedied.

From the Birmingham News, "Jesus says one of our missions is to take care of the least among us," Riley said. "We've got to take care of the poor."

As you may expect, the Repubs, both in AL and nationally are up in arms. Dick Armey is coming to AL to campaign against the reform and the Christian Coalition has printed materials in opposition to the plan. Locally, many county Repub parties have issued resolutions opposed to the plan.

From the Mobile Repub Party resolution, "WHEREAS, if enacted these tax increases will work a substantial hardship on many working Alabama families by undermining their ability to take care of their children?s and parents? financial needs (thereby increasing the likelihood that they, too, will become dependent on the state and thus accelerating the demand for even more tax increases in the future);

This should be a very interesting fight as the referendum on the tax package scheduled for Sept. draws near.

Anyone wanting more can check out a wide range of articles on al.com

[Easy Mac]

As a Democrat, I would normally be for such things as increased taxes for the rich in order to help the poor.

The problem is, seeing what I have seen working at a grocery store, I don't really care much for the poor. When people buy $300 worth of groceries on food stamps, with $100 of that being top choice steaks, I don't have sympathy. And them pulling out about 5 $100 bills so they can pay for things not covered, no sympathy for their plight. Eat cheaper food and stop having so many kids at a young age.

I think the idea of the rich helping to "support" the poor is a good idea in theory, just as there are many good ideas in theory. The problem is, its impossible to execute with 100% accuracy. Its the people who abuse the system that turn many people such as myself against helping them. The truly needy get shafted more than they should, and plans which look good on paper fail because of these people.

[Anrhydeddu]

Then why involve the government if the system can only be corrupted on both extremes? Jesus did not say give the your money to Casesar to help the poor, he told you and me to help those less fortunate than ourselves. If more of us did this, there would not be any reason for government-sponsored welfare and assistance, thus freeing up personal wealth. I know, not realistic. But it will never be if voters and the population keep believing (and keep electing those that believe) in "such things as increased taxes for the rich in order to help the poor". :(

[JPhillips]

As I have dug around some more I found that a major portion of the increase comes from increasing property taxes on timber companies. These companies apparently pay somewhere around two dollars an acre. Major businesses own more than half of the state's private property but pay very little in property taxes.

Honestly the part of this that really interests me is the way Riley keeps going back to the Bible for his justification. I've always wondered why many conservative Christians rarely mention things like the rich man and the camel fitting through a needle. Just last night I read a passae in Deu. that has God ordering everyone to forgive all debts every seven years. I wonder why that never comes out of Pat Robertson's mouth?

[Easy Mac]

Tell that to all the foreign countries we "owe" money to.

[cuervo72]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
As a Democrat, I would normally be for such things as increased taxes for the rich in order to help the poor.

The problem is, seeing what I have seen working at a grocery store, I don't really care much for the poor. When people buy $300 worth of groceries on food stamps, with $100 of that being top choice steaks, I don't have sympathy. And them pulling out about 5 $100 bills so they can pay for things not covered, no sympathy for their plight. Eat cheaper food and stop having so many kids at a young age.


And stop buying those $40 cartons of cigarettes! Oh, and about those lottery tickets....

[Tekneek]

Originally posted by JPhillips
From the Birmingham News, "Jesus says one of our missions is to take care of the least among us," Riley said. "We've got to take care of the poor."

If this is being used as a reason to raise taxes, then Karl Marx would've been loved by Christians. He was all about "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." Of course, he thought religion was a sham. So, Riley is a Marxist who happens to believe in religion, and attributes his Marxist belief to Jesus, rather than to Karl Marx.

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by Tekneek
If this is being used as a reason to raise taxes, then Karl Marx would've been loved by Christians. He was all about "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." Of course, he thought religion was a sham. So, Riley is a Marxist who happens to believe in religion, and attributes his Marxist belief to Jesus, rather than to Karl Marx.

Not what he was saying. He isn't raising taxes to help the poor, he is lowering taxes on the poor to help the poor. The state has to increase taxes to balance the budget (Alabama's budget was a real mess) and he has decided from what I'm seeing to use this as a reason to update the antiquated tax laws of the state. I have lived there and I can tell you they have a horribily outdated tax law that put a much higher burden on the lower incomes.

I'm not defending his system because I haven't seen it. Just saying that Alabama needed taxs reform and pointing out he wasn't talking about a Marxist redistribution of wealth.

[Tekneek]

Oh, from what I read that was what I thought it was, but I buy what you are saying. I don't have any idea what the tax code was like before, so I wonder if they are making changes that *are* unreasonable compared to other states in the southeast or not.

I wonder what government services they were afraid to cut. I personally would rather they decrease the tax burden on the poor without increasing the tax burden on anyone else. Cut the spending to match the revenue stream. That's what I have to do.

[tucker342]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
As a Democrat, I would normally be for such things as increased taxes for the rich in order to help the poor.

The problem is, seeing what I have seen working at a grocery store, I don't really care much for the poor. When people buy $300 worth of groceries on food stamps, with $100 of that being top choice steaks, I don't have sympathy. And them pulling out about 5 $100 bills so they can pay for things not covered, no sympathy for their plight. Eat cheaper food and stop having so many kids at a young age.

I think the idea of the rich helping to "support" the poor is a good idea in theory, just as there are many good ideas in theory. The problem is, its impossible to execute with 100% accuracy. Its the people who abuse the system that turn many people such as myself against helping them. The truly needy get shafted more than they should, and plans which look good on paper fail because of these people.

Couldn't agree more

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by Tekneek
Oh, from what I read that was what I thought it was, but I buy what you are saying. I don't have any idea what the tax code was like before, so I wonder if they are making changes that *are* unreasonable compared to other states in the southeast or not.

I wonder what government services they were afraid to cut. I personally would rather they decrease the tax burden on the poor without increasing the tax burden on anyone else. Cut the spending to match the revenue stream. That's what I have to do.

I agree in princible, but Alabama basic services are some of the worst in the country. They have already cut 230 million dollars in an already strained budget. I just can't see how they could justify further cuts. From what I'm seeing, he wants to restructure the tax code, and bring budgeting into the 21st century. As pointed out in one article (talking about Dick Armey coming and compaining against this program):

Armey said the proposed tax increase is so large that it could scare corporations from Alabama and cost many jobs. Presumably, those same corporations weren't scared away from Armey's home state, even though Texas' state and local taxes are almost $400 higher per person than Alabama's, according to the Public Affairs Research Council of Alabama. In fact, if Alabama taxed at Texas' rate, it would have more than $1.7 billion more for services. Riley is seeking an increase that still wouldn't raise Alabama's tax burden as high as what Texans pay

Most of this increase will go to schools which desperately need it. I believe it would also change the source of funding for schools. When I lived there, a large part of school funding came from sales tax. When sales income dropped a couple of years ago, they cut 11% of the education budget across the board. Cutting income from one of the poorest school systems in the country is not the way to improve it.

[Tekneek]

It is a catch 22. From what I gather, there is not a whole lot of money in Alabama. Good luck to them. Regardless of budgets, and current levels of taxation, I am against tax increases of any kind for any reason ultimately.

I'm glad I do not live in Alabama or really know anyone that does.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Looks like Riley is going to be about as popular as his GA counterpart

[JPhillips]

I just saw this editorial from the Birmingham News:

Riley the Republican

Some party members deserting governor over tax plan

07/01/03

The stock line among recent party-switching Democrats has been, "I didn't leave the Democratic Party; the Democratic Party left me."

The party, not the elected official, had changed. Now it was time to become a Republican because that party more accurately represented the politician's views.

Gov. Bob Riley hasn't left the Republican Party, but is the party or at least some of the most vocal elements of it leaving him because of his $1.2 billion tax and accountability plan?

The question comes to mind because of a series of recent events. Saturday, former state Republican Party Chairman Roger McConnell sponsored a meeting to organize a grass-roots campaign against Riley's tax plan, and an anti-Riley rally broke out.

"I would move that the executive committee throw Bob Riley out of the Republican Party," conservative radio talk show host Russ Fine said to loud cheers. "He has betrayed everybody in this room who supported him."

Several local GOP committees already have passed resolutions opposing Riley's plan, and many Republican lawmakers refused to back his proposals in the recent special session.

Also, a week and a half ago, former U.S. House Majority Leader Dick Armey, who served with Riley in Congress and now co-chairs the conservative lobbying group Citizens for a Sound Economy, announced he was coming to Alabama to campaign against Riley's plan. "My responsibility is to the things I've believed in all my life and to our members in the state," said Armey, a Republican congressman from Texas for 18 years.

Armey said the proposed tax increase is so large that it could scare corporations from Alabama and cost many jobs. Presumably, those same corporations weren't scared away from Armey's home state, even though Texas' state and local taxes are almost $400 higher per person than Alabama's, according to the Public Affairs Research Council of Alabama. In fact, if Alabama taxed at Texas' rate, it would have more than $1.7 billion more for services. Riley is seeking an increase that still wouldn't raise Alabama's tax burden as high as what Texans pay.

Riley, who as recently as November's election was viewed by party members as a true Republican, hasn't lost his marbles or found the Democrats (although some of the faithful at McConnell's meeting Saturday probably think that's the same thing). Instead, Riley realizes there's a world of difference between federal and state government.

Without a doubt, the federal government is too large and spending is out of control. But state government in Alabama never has approached even adequate funding of necessary services.

Riley's plan attempts to do that, even as it takes a step toward tax fairness by actually lowering the amount many poor Alabama families would pay. The governor's plan also would make state government more accountable, building on his efforts in the first six months in office that have resulted in taxpayer savings of more than $230 million.

By no means has Riley left the Republican Party. But some of its members definitely are leaving him and his plan for a better future for Alabama

[mckerney]

From: Bob Camel

Subject: No New Taxes

Psst. Hey, Voter. Yeah, you.

Washington wants to raise your taxes. Don't they always?

They've proposed $100 billion in new taxes. Don't let them do
it. Cough, cough. I want you to call your local congressman.
His home phone number is (444) 555-9104. I want you to tell
him that we're not going to stand for new taxes.

His children go to Fairchild Elementary on Green Rd. and 48th.
I want you to go there (little Leslie is in Miss Peachtree's
4th-grade homeroom) and tell them you don't want new taxes, too

His wife has a dentist's appointment at 4 p.m. with Dr.
Nightengale's office on Redmond Way. Go there and tell her
what you think. The security guard shouldn't be much of a
problem, just slip him a $20 and tell him 'The Camel' sent you.

Attached are some helpful tips and some phone numbers to call
if you get summoned for jury duty on one of those darned
anti-tobacco cases. They'll take care of you. We need your
help! Bob Camel is counting on you!

[Tekneek]

Resurrection from the past. I've since read more about the plan, and interviews with the govenor and such. It was actually a good idea. If you accept that taxes are going to be collected, then they really should have gone with the new plan. I've also undergone some significant changes in my personal outlook since this past summer, and I feel a lot differently than I did then. Just wanted to get it on the record. :)

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by Tekneek
Resurrection from the past. I've since read more about the plan, and interviews with the govenor and such. It was actually a good idea. If you accept that taxes are going to be collected, then they really should have gone with the new plan. I've also undergone some significant changes in my personal outlook since this past summer, and I feel a lot differently than I did then. Just wanted to get it on the record. :)

It was a very good plan. Sadly, the people of Alabama vote emotionally instead of rationally.

[ISiddiqui]

If this is being used as a reason to raise taxes, then Karl Marx would've been loved by Christians.

Well, you can make an convincing argument that Jesus was the first Marxist... ;).

[Philliesfan980]

Not what he was saying. He isn't raising taxes to help the poor, he is lowering taxes on the poor to help the poor. The state has to increase taxes to balance the budget (Alabama's budget was a real mess) and he has decided from what I'm seeing to use this as a reason to update the antiquated tax laws of the state. I have lived there and I can tell you they have a horribily outdated tax law that put a much higher burden on the lower incomes.

If thats the case, thats all well in good. I disagree 100% with the fact that the rich should HAVE to subsidize the poor. Thats an idea thats growing in this country, and its absolutely crap. If I want to donate money to the poor, let me do it on my own terms.

[IMetTrentGreen]

"The really interesting part of this is that Riley says he is doing this because of his deep faith in Christ. He believes that the AL tax code unfairly burdens the poor and Christian faith demands that this be remedied."

most of the christrain right are complete hypocrites. this quoted section above is nice to see

jesus would have been the biggest liberal, ever. i'm confounded how the religious right doesn't even recognize that

[Subby]

Easy Mac -

I am disappointed that you would let your limited experience at a single grocery store color your perceptions to such a degree that you are now making sweeping indictments of the poor.