#3 should be #1!

[lytic]

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/mostoverrated.html?partnersite=espn

I disagree with a few here...

[McSweeny]

i agree, i think jeter should be number 1... maybe i am a bit biased though considering i am a red sox fan. he's still gotten worse every year for the past 3 or 4 years

[lytic]

Mike Tyson in his prime was the hardest hitting champion ever. Why do you think he was the youngest to ever get it?

He's not overrated... just old.

[JeeberD]

Ben Wallace?????????

[Neuqua]

Alfonso Soriano?

[rexallllsc]

On their Top 10 All-Time Overrated, they have an "Honorable Mention" category with these two:

Also receiving votes:

Sandy Koufax

Don Drysdale
---

Idiots.

[Blackadar]

Antoine Walker should be #1.

[Alan T]

Originally posted by rexallllsc
On their Top 10 All-Time Overrated, they have an "Honorable Mention" category with these two:

Also receiving votes:

Sandy Koufax

Don Drysdale
---

Idiots.

I agree. Anyone who says Koufax is over rated simply does not understand how dominating Koufax was when he pitched.

The same type of person is the one who would say Bob Gibson is overrated, even though he probably was the scariest pitcher that I can think of ever.

[oykib]

Well Koufax isn't overrated that much, but Drysdale is because of his association with Koufax.

Koufax was as great as people believe he was for the six years that he was.

But some people say that he was the greatest ever. You can't be the greatest ever on the strength of six season. You can't compare Koufax to Roger Clemens, Tom Seaver, Greg Maddux, or even, say, Randy Johnson.

[tucker342]

I agree with their number 1, Vince Carter SUCKS! I would have probably put Jeter at number 2...

[tucker342]

dola-

How can he possibly put Ben Wallace and Alfonso Soriano in the Honorable Mention???

[Marmel]

They claim that a guy is a probable Hall of Famer before he even hits his 30th birthday (Jeter), but he is overrated?

How is a Hall of Famer overrated?

[tucker342]

The thing is he's payed 19 mil and his numbers have gone down every single year. Is he a great player? Hell ya, he's awesome. But is he worth 19 mil? Not even close...

[Alan T]

Originally posted by oykib
Well Koufax isn't overrated that much, but Drysdale is because of his association with Koufax.

Koufax was as great as people believe he was for the six years that he was.

But some people say that he was the greatest ever. You can't be the greatest ever on the strength of six season. You can't compare Koufax to Roger Clemens, Tom Seaver, Greg Maddux, or even, say, Randy Johnson.

I wonder if everyone would get mad if I start a new better player vs greater player discussion here :)

Actually I agree with you on the players you chose.. I think Seaver, Johnson, Maddux and Clemens are all greater pitchers than Koufax was. I used Bob Gibson in my example above though because like Koufax, neither got to 300 wins which today seems a magical number, yet both pitchers were better than any other pitcher they faced. If I had to pick one pitcher in a game 7 in their prime.. it would be tough for me to choose from a Randy Johnson a Koufax or a Bob Gibson or others (like Steve Carlton, etc).

But Johnson has been better longer than Koufax was. (and also fairly equally dominating.)

Originally posted by Marmel
They claim that a guy is a probable Hall of Famer before he even hits his 30th birthday (Jeter), but he is overrated?

How is a Hall of Famer overrated?

I think this is why most people think Jetere is overrated. I am not sure there is statistical proof that shows why he should be a sure hall of famer. If guys like Dale Murphy who was loved and adored by many and had back to back MVP seasons aren't getting into the hall of fame.. why would Jetere who is an average hitter (other than a few better than average seasons), and a below average fielder.

Jetere is the posterchild of New York hyping.

[Alan T]

Here are the statistically most similar batters for Jeter so far. So yeah Jeter has a good shot, but I wouldnt say a sure thing. All I know is ... if Alan Trammell can not get in the hall of fame, I don't know how Jeter can be a sure thing...


Derek Jeter Similar Players

Similar Batters

1. Glenn Wright (867)
2. Ray Durham (860)
3. Edgardo Alfonzo (843)
4. John Valentin (842)
5. Jeff Blauser (841)
6. Johnny Logan (831)
7. Jeff Cirillo (827)
8. Gil McDougald (827)
9. Jack Rowe (821)
10. Carlos Baerga (820)

Similar Batters through Age 28

1. Travis Jackson (900) *
2. Joe Torre (877)
3. Alan Trammell (875)
4. Vern Stephens (874)
5. Arky Vaughan (869) *
6. Roberto Alomar (866)
7. Joe Cronin (861) *
8. Jim Fregosi (861)
9. Frankie Frisch (861) *
10. Bobby Doerr (860) *

Most Similar by Age

22. Joe Sewell (969) *
23. Joe Sewell (965) *
24. Joe Cronin (942) *
25. Joe Cronin (924) *
26. Joe Sewell (899) *
27. Travis Jackson (896) *
28. Travis Jackson (900) *


* - Signifies Hall of Famer

[pjstp20]

I'd like to hear why Jeter is an overrated fielder because in my opinion he's very solid. That ESPN article offered no proof on why I should beleive he's a D+ defensive shortstop. Measuring defensive play through statistics in baseball hurts your credibility right off the bat. It's something intangible that you have to see, like the play he made in Oakland a couple years ago, what stat does that go under? 1 assist? Bullshit.

[Alan T]

If you can not argue a case using factual statistics, then you are only left with opinions and subjective thought. If you have a discussion based on opinions, then its a pretty worthless discussion since most often people do not change opinions based on what they have seen or experienced, even if things like defensive positioning, breaking the wrong way, not having good enough range are hard to measure.

Its just another example of why I hate that a horrible fielder can simply not get to a ball and it is no black mark against them, but instead its a black mark against the pitcher... A much better fielder can make an outstanding play to get to the ball, prevent a runner on 2nd from scoring, and get charged with an error.

The reason why Jeter is so overhyped are those exact "intangibles" which I have come to believe means = Everyone's favorite yankee :)

[Alan T]

If anyone is interested in an article that does go in depth a little to look at Jeter's defensive performance this year from a statistical perspective (removing opinions and biases).. The following seems to be an interesting article to read. It mainly covers this year though moreso than over his career. Talking about why perhaps his shoulder injury might be a reason for his defense has slipped some this year.

http://www.baseballprimer.com/articles/emeigh_2003-06-20_0.shtml

[EagleFan]

How can Tony Stewart be considered over-rated, or make the hoorable mention list? Not to turn this into a NASCAR discussion, just asking the pure and simple question of how can a defending champion be over-rated? Expecially one who has also led the Winston Cup in victories in another season prior to being the champion.

Dale Jr. is the poster boy of over-rated if you are talking NASCAR. Tony Stewart is the champion, and it won't be his last either.

[oykib]

The most similar player comparisons don't really work for Jeter. His best overall comps are not that great (mid-800s) and there are only a couple of Shortstops.

When you look at his comps through his cutrrent age you get 70% HOFs and the other three are aall borderline. I think he'd take those odds.

Also I think that Jeter's numbers are likely to rebound a lot this year-- even with the injury. People have not take the impact of the extra month of high-pressure baseball that the core Yankees have had since, basically '96. When you add up all that post-season time, it works out to almost a full season. But that time is not just tacked on, it cuts into off-season recovery.

You've seen the impact on the stats of Bernie Williams (before he got hurt). I think most of the core guys will see a jump in their stats because they won't wear down as much as they usually do in August.

[EagleFan]

dola: Just looked at his all-time list. If he can put Pete Rose and Nolan Ryan on a list of all-time over-rated players than he is really showing that he has no clue and is all about just trying to get himself talked about.

[Easy Mac]

Jeter was out of poisition on the Oakland play, he was supposed to be somewhere else. Thats not a great play, its luck. Oh, and Giambi threw the game t oget out of Oakland anyway.

[Anrhydeddu]

Over-rated does not mean that you are not good. You can be HOF-type player and be overrated. For instance, Nolan Ryan (or Don Drysdale for that matter) is probably one of the better pitchers of all time. But put him in a Top 10 list and then he would be rated higher than he actually should be (thus, over-rated). It seems that the higher one rates on this list, the more unrealistic hype or expectations that was heaped on him.

[ISiddiqui]

pjstp, there have been many articles written how Jeter sucks defensively. Bill James has taken all the defensive stats that he believes matters and put him together to rank players defensively... Jeter is rated as a D+.

His backups get to more balls.

He isn't a great fielder, he isn't even a good one. I know many Yankee fans (who aren't in love with Jeter :D) who get frustrated with Jeter not getting to balls he should.

[Marmel]

Jeter was not out of position. He saw the ball was overthrown and sprinted to it....not to mention the flip.

I am not one to go overboard and proclaim Jeter the best player in MLB, but he is one of the best shortstops, and a terrific player. If he was not a Yankee he is the type of guy who most of you would consider as one of the good guys in sports. He calls his manager Mr. Torre, he wants to play (and will play) for 1 team for his entire career. He works hard day in and day out, he never takes a day off. He lives by the saying, "Somebody here is seeing you for the first time, so play like it." He takes time while in the on deck circle to talk to fans. He doesn't cry about bad calls. He enjoys playing the game for the love of the game. He is a clubhouse leader and not a cancer....the list goes on and on...

[oykib]

Originally posted by EagleFan
dola: Just looked at his all-time list. If he can put Pete Rose and Nolan Ryan on a list of all-time over-rated players than he is really showing that he has no clue and is all about just trying to get himself talked about.

Pete Rose is overrated. He made the All-Century team as an outfielder. Barry Bonds did not make the team. Case Closed.

Nolan Ryan is Overrated. He made the All-Century team. Greg Maddux didn't, IIRC. Case Closed.

People get enamored with gaudy records that don't mean a whole lot. Nolan Ryan was not a great pitcher. He was an amazing pitcher. But he spent most of his career in parks that were favorable to pitchers. He never won the CY Young and never really came close.

He might be the best number two pitcher in history. But he wasn't an all-time ace.

As For Rose, he was great. If not for all the off the field nonsense he'd have deservedly been a unanimous first pick Hall of Famer. But he's not on the top tier of Hall of Famers.

[oykib]

As to Jeter's defense, I think that one factor that skews his stats is that he's spent his career playing with the best defenders at third.

He seems to be much better at going to his right than his left. So most Jeter highlights are of him going deep into the hole and throwing people out. But Boggs, Brosius, and Ventura tend to cut off half of those balls.

I'm not saying that he's a good shortstop, defensively. I think that he's adequate. But you take adequate along with everything else that he brings to the table.

[ISiddiqui]

I am not one to go overboard and proclaim Jeter the best player in MLB, but he is one of the best shortstops, and a terrific player.

Yes, he was is a great SS, but not a great defensive SS. He's like Ernie Banks in that way. But he also is overrated. He's not as good as Nomar, he isn't as good as A-Rod, he isn't as good as Tejada, but many think he is just as good as A-Rod (which is nonsense).

He might be the best number two pitcher in history.

He has competition for that as well. Glavine and Drysdale might have some claims as well :D.

[ISiddiqui]

As to Jeter's defense, I think that one factor that skews his stats is that he's spent his career playing with the best defenders at third.

One of the things that comes out is that third basemen with Jeter play MUCH more towards second than they do with other SS's. Interestingly enough 3B with Jeter get many more assists/game than they do with his backups.

It shows that his backups (who no one has confused as good defensive SS) are better defensively than Jeter.

[mckerney]

I saw the all time overrated and about the only one I really agreed with was Lynn Swann, though I was very pissed to see Pete Maravich's name on that list :mad:. How dare he say such blasphemy.

[mckerney]

Dola:

I see he also put David Beckham on the honorable mention list. Here's a question, what are the odds the guy has ever watched a game of soccer, much less one Beckham was playing in?

[EagleFan]

Greg Maddux couldn't carry Nolan Ryan's jock strap. Yeah, holding the record for no-hitters and strikeouts sure isn't what I would want in an ace. Give me a pitcher that vanishes in the post season like Maddux anyday. Greg Maddux would be a good number 2 pitcher back in the day, when he wouldn't get strike calls that were a foot outside based on his reputation.


Pete Rose is a winner, let's compare titles between him and Bonds. He put the Phillies over the top in 1980 when they couldn't get past the NLCS to save their life, definitely the sign of an over-rated player. He had the skills to play anywhere on the diamond. Who wants someone like that? Put him at the plate in a key situation and the only thing you would be certain of is no strikeout, talk about over-rated. He played his positions like they are supposed to be played, doing all the little things, such as being in the right place for the 2nd out of Game 6 of the Series in 1980 as the ball popped from Boone's glove, more over-rated things that he did. The only thing that gives him any consideration for this list is the hype following him since leaving the game, but that has nothing to do with his performance or reputation while playing the game.

Randy Johnson has more of a case to make the over-rated list than Ryan. He made a name on his size and stirkeouts, and purely that for the longest time. If he was only 5'10 when he started playing, no-one would even know about him for the longest time.

Some may say Michael Jordan could make the list. After all, what has he won without Phil Jackson? Actually, his baseball stint could give him consideration. Never before has a minor league player received so much hype and attention. I am not putting him on the list, just supplying an arguement that could be used for it.

Darryl Strawberry and Dwight Gooden, there's two names that could make the list easily over Rose and Ryan. Albert Belle, Bobby Bonilla, Brett Favre, Anna Kournicova (sp?) (easily number one), Tye Domi, Jeromy Roenick, Dale Jr, Dale Jr., Dale Jr., Dale Jr., Dennis Rodman, Roman Checkmanik, Curtis Joseph, Joe Neikro, Bobby Taylor, Jason Sehorn, etc...


A lot more names that should go ahead of Ryan and Rose. He put them on there just to get people talking about his article. Unfortunately it has worked.

[Marmel]

Originally posted by ISiddiqui
Yes, he was is a great SS, but not a great defensive SS. He's like Ernie Banks in that way. But he also is overrated. He's not as good as Nomar, he isn't as good as A-Rod, he isn't as good as Tejada, but many think he is just as good as A-Rod (which is nonsense).



He has competition for that as well. Glavine and Drysdale might have some claims as well :D.



You mean the 20+ error per year, .270 lifetime BA Tejada? You must be joking.

A-Rod and Nomar do things better than Jeter for the most part, but I'll take Jeter over either of them. Jeter played a part in 4 titles. I am not going to buy the arguments about lack of talent on Nomar and A-Rod's teams. A-Rod had Randy Johnson, Ken Griffey, Edgar Martinez et al. in Seattle for years and never even reached the WS. Nomar has had Pedro, Manny, and a huge payroll in Boston to work with and never even sniffed a Series. There is a reason Jeter is captain of the Yankees. Anybody who truly thinks stats are the end all and be all of a players worth either does not watch much baseball, or just doesn't get it, IMO. I get frustrated with some of Jeter's antics in the field, but he will come right back with a play that nobody else in the majors can make to make up for it. He will shrug off an error, or a muffed play and be determined to make up for it with the bat or with some nifty base running.

Here is one example....about a week and half ago, Jeter gets blasted on his wrist with a fastball. He stays in the game, tells the first baseman he is stealing second, procedes to steal second and then scores the (go-ahead, I think) run on the next hit. The stat sheet shows that as a SB and a Run Scored.

[oykib]

Originally posted by EagleFan
Greg Maddux couldn't carry Nolan Ryan's jock strap. Yeah, holding the record for no-hitters and strikeouts sure isn't what I would want in an ace. Give me a pitcher that vanishes in the post season like Maddux anyday. Greg Maddux would be a good number 2 pitcher back in the day, when he wouldn't get strike calls that were a foot outside based on his reputation.


Pete Rose is a winner, let's compare titles between him and Bonds. He put the Phillies over the top in 1980 when they couldn't get past the NLCS to save their life, definitely the sign of an over-rated player. He had the skills to play anywhere on the diamond. Who wants someone like that? Put him at the plate in a key situation and the only thing you would be certain of is no strikeout, talk about over-rated. He played his positions like they are supposed to be played, doing all the little things, such as being in the right place for the 2nd out of Game 6 of the Series in 1980 as the ball popped from Boone's glove, more over-rated things that he did. The only thing that gives him any consideration for this list is the hype following him since leaving the game, but that has nothing to do with his performance or reputation while playing the game.

Randy Johnson has more of a case to make the over-rated list than Ryan. He made a name on his size and stirkeouts, and purely that for the longest time. If he was only 5'10 when he started playing, no-one would even know about him for the longest time.

Some may say Michael Jordan could make the list. After all, what has he won without Phil Jackson? Actually, his baseball stint could give him consideration. Never before has a minor league player received so much hype and attention. I am not putting him on the list, just supplying an arguement that could be used for it.

Darryl Strawberry and Dwight Gooden, there's two names that could make the list easily over Rose and Ryan. Albert Belle, Bobby Bonilla, Brett Favre, Anna Kournicova (sp?) (easily number one), Tye Domi, Jeromy Roenick, Dale Jr, Dale Jr., Dale Jr., Dale Jr., Dennis Rodman, Roman Checkmanik, Curtis Joseph, Joe Neikro, Bobby Taylor, Jason Sehorn, etc...


A lot more names that should go ahead of Ryan and Rose. He put them on there just to get people talking about his article. Unfortunately it has worked.

EagleFan, you're crazy.

[oykib]

Now that that last post is out of the way I'll respond to your specific arguments.

A pitcher's job is not to toss no-hitters. A pitcher's job is not to strike guys out. A pitcher's job is to give his team the best chance to win. Greg Maddux is so far a head of Ryan in that regard that RYan couldn't see him with binoculars.

As I said Pete Rose was a great player. I realize that Bonds pushes a hot-button for a number of people. So I'll give you another chance. Can you tell me that there are not nine greater outfielders in the history of baseball than Pete Rose?

[Anrhydeddu]

EaglesFan, that's just plain nonsense (in a respectful way). :)

[Alan T]

Originally posted by EagleFan
Greg Maddux couldn't carry Nolan Ryan's jock strap. Yeah, holding the record for no-hitters and strikeouts sure isn't what I would want in an ace. Give me a pitcher that vanishes in the post season like Maddux anyday. Greg Maddux would be a good number 2 pitcher back in the day, when he wouldn't get strike calls that were a foot outside based on his reputation.



Randy Johnson has more of a case to make the over-rated list than Ryan. He made a name on his size and stirkeouts, and purely that for the longest time. If he was only 5'10 when he started playing, no-one would even know about him for the longest time.






Ok not sure why you say that about Maddux vs Ryan.. Looking at postseason statistics:

Ryan: 2-2 3.07 ERA

Maddux: 11-13 3.23 ERA

Neither of the records are spectacular.. but I would easily take either performances in the post season. If their team can not score more than 3 runs in a game, the problem is with the team's offense not the pitching. I think both Ryan and Maddux pitched fine in the post season.

Looking at their regular season performances, Maddux had far better performances over the course of his history. I agree though in that i think Nolan Ryan was a great pitcher, and lI loved watching him pitch. I just wanted to stand up for Maddux whom I think you unfairly judged.

As for Randy Johnson being overrated or not.. Its probably tough to be overrated when you have arguably been the best pitcher in baseball statistically over the past 5 years. I don't like JOhnson too much, but can't really argue with the stats he has put up.

[bigdawg2003]

If I were a manager, and my team was in an absolute must win game, and I could choose any pitcher ever, I'd choose Ryan. Why? Because when he's on, you don't have a chance in hell. He has the endurance to throw 9 innings, and if you charge him, he'll throw down and knock your ass out (ask Ventura).

[TroyF]

Jeter, Jeter, Jeter.

I'd love my kid to grow up with Jeter's brains, talent and play in the clutch. Between him and Bernie, he really makes hating the Yankees tough sometimes.

Still, I think he's overrated. He's a very good player, not a great player. Defensively, he's average at best. (I base this not only on stats but on games that I've seen) Offensively, he gets a ton of runs because of the talent hitting behind him. (his OBP is getting worse by the year)

He's a great baserunner. He's an above average hitter for a SS, though certainly not as good as Nomar or Alex. (Tejada is also a better hitter, but is struggling badly this year)

The question you have to ask yourself, is how would he be looked at if he were playing on the Royals for his career instead of the Yankees? Would he be considered a surefire hall of famer based off of his regular season stats alone? Would he have received an 18 million dollar contract by anyone? Would he even have generated more publicity then, say, Mike Sweeney?

Jeter is an above average player with a lot of charisma. He's played unbelievably well in the post season, yet I don't think Jeter was an irreplaceable cog in that machine either. He should consider himself very fortunate that he ended up as a Yankee. He's overrated. (although I'm not sure I'd have him on a TOP 10 overrated list) :)

As for other things in the article, how Tony Stewart, Sandy Koufax and some of the others be overrated is beyond me.

TroyF

[Alan T]

Originally posted by bigdawg2003
If I were a manager, and my team was in an absolute must win game, and I could choose any pitcher ever, I'd choose Ryan. Why? Because when he's on, you don't have a chance in hell. He has the endurance to throw 9 innings, and if you charge him, he'll throw down and knock your ass out (ask Ventura).


I don't know if I would take it that far.. Ryan was intimidating and had great stuff. The big knock against him was the lack of control and the tremendously high number of walks he gave up. That is probably the detail that in my mind takes him out of the category of the elite pitchers and puts him in the next category down.. (Hall of famers) .. I think Ryan is greater than HoFamers like Sutton, Niekro, etc.. but not quite the level of other greats like Walter Johnson, Tom Seaver, Roger Clemens (as much as I hate to say it), or others that are simply greats.

[oykib]

Originally posted by bigdawg2003
If I were a manager, and my team was in an absolute must win game, and I could choose any pitcher ever, I'd choose Ryan. Why? Because when he's on, you don't have a chance in hell. He has the endurance to throw 9 innings, and if you charge him, he'll throw down and knock your ass out (ask Ventura).

You take Ryan. I'll flip a coin between Gibson and Koufax.

Have fun talking to Jim Gray...:p

[Alan T]

Originally posted by TroyF


The question you have to ask yourself, is how would he be looked at if he were playing on the Royals for his career instead of the Yankees? Would he be considered a surefire hall of famer based off of his regular season stats alone? Would he have received an 18 million dollar contract by anyone? Would he even have generated more publicity then, say, Mike Sweeney?




Well how do people look at say... Ray Durham? Jeter has been a little better hitter, Durham has been better on the basepaths and in the field.. both are relatively the same age, and both were middle infielders...

[Alan T]

Originally posted by oykib
You take Ryan. I'll flip a coin between Gibson and Koufax.

Have fun talking to Jim Gray...:p

Ok the first thing in the past 3 days that I say I agree with oykib on.. :) :) :)

[ISiddiqui]

The question you have to ask yourself, is how would he be looked at if he were playing on the Royals for his career instead of the Yankees?

Bingo! I doubt that if you switch Jeter with Nomar or A-Rod or even Tejada, NYers would be talking about them as the best SS ever that helped lead the team to 4 titles. Jeter is a good player, yes... but definetly a case of the right place at the right time.

I'm sure Nomar or A-Rod would love to have the starting pitching that Jeter's NY Yankee teams had (you know the stuff that actually won all those WS)

[TroyF]

Originally posted by Alan T
Well how do people look at say... Ray Durham? Jeter has been a little better hitter, Durham has been better on the basepaths and in the field.. both are relatively the same age, and both were middle infielders...

Exactly. :)

TroyF

[ISiddiqui]

I got a feeling Ray Durham won't be in sniffing distance of the Hall of Fame, unless he's going there to visit ;).

[thealmighty]

Koufax :D :D :D :D :D :D best I ever saw

[EagleFan]

A pitcher's job is not to strike people out and throw no hitters? That's the same logic that Arthur Anderson used, it's not our job to make sure you are doing it right, just to make the numbers look right.

That's just nonsense. A pitcher's job is to keep the other team from scoring. I would say that no-hitters accomplish that in a big way and striking people out also helps accomplish this, unless you've seen a lot of sacrifice strikeouts. Trust me, Boston fans would have loved to have seen a strikeout in game 6 instead of a dribbler to first. More strikeouts mean less balls in play, which means less chance for errors.

Let's compare:
Ryan - 324 wins
Maddux - 279 wins

Maddux - .636 winning %
Ryan - .526 winning %

Ryan - 222 complete games
Maddux - 102 complete games

Maddux - 2.89 ERA
Ryan - 3.19 ERS

Ryan - 2.89 Component ERA - Bill James Stat
Maddux - 3.06 Component ERA - Bill James Stat

Ryan - 61 shutouts (does that fall into not a pitchers job as well)
Maddux - 34 shutouts

Ryan - 6.56 hits per 9 innings
Maddux - 8.21 hits per 9 innings

Ryan - 5714 strikeouts
Maddux - 2710 strikeouts

Ryan - most complete games in a season 26
Maddux - most in a season 10

Ryan - most shutouts in a season 9
Maddux - most sutouts in a season 5

Ryan - opponents average .204
Maddux - opponents average .243


Put Ryan in his prime on the Braves during this same stretch and he'll have over 400 wins for his career. Give him the 4 foot wide strike zone given to Maddux and you'll see 7000 strikeouts. He pitched in a time when the strike zone was pinched more than ever.

If you want Maddux, I will be more than willing to start a team with Ryan anytime.

Don't even bother getting into Pete Rose. He played every damn position and played it at the top of it's game. He had to be classified somewhere. Yeah, there are better people at every position, but we're talking all-around ball player here.

[EagleFan]

Originally posted by oykib
You take Ryan. I'll flip a coin between Gibson and Koufax.

Have fun talking to Jim Gray...:p

What happened to your boy Maddux? You've been stroking him the whole thread and now you bail?

[Blackadar]

Originally posted by Marmel
You mean the 20+ error per year, .270 lifetime BA Tejada? You must be joking.

A-Rod and Nomar do things better than Jeter for the most part, but I'll take Jeter over either of them. Jeter played a part in 4 titles. I am not going to buy the arguments about lack of talent on Nomar and A-Rod's teams. A-Rod had Randy Johnson, Ken Griffey, Edgar Martinez et al. in Seattle for years and never even reached the WS. Nomar has had Pedro, Manny, and a huge payroll in Boston to work with and never even sniffed a Series. There is a reason Jeter is captain of the Yankees. Anybody who truly thinks stats are the end all and be all of a players worth either does not watch much baseball, or just doesn't get it, IMO. I get frustrated with some of Jeter's antics in the field, but he will come right back with a play that nobody else in the majors can make to make up for it. He will shrug off an error, or a muffed play and be determined to make up for it with the bat or with some nifty base running.

Here is one example....about a week and half ago, Jeter gets blasted on his wrist with a fastball. He stays in the game, tells the first baseman he is stealing second, procedes to steal second and then scores the (go-ahead, I think) run on the next hit. The stat sheet shows that as a SB and a Run Scored.

Plu-heez. First, A-Rod was a rookie when he had Johnson and Griffey. That was his only shot to win with those two. As for payroll, the Sox HAVE sniffed at a series, but they haven't been able to break the door down. Why? A lot of it has to do with the fact that the Yankees payroll is FIFTY PERCENT higher than theirs. Just because you play for a team that can afford (and does) buy the World Series doesn't mean that you're a winner. If you think anything else, you're just kidding yourself.

Both Nomar and A-Rod are better defensively (even with Nomar's errors) as they have much better range. Read any statistical breakdown of range, players vs. backups, etc. and Jeter is always close to last for shortstops.

Nomar and A-Rod are also MUCH better offensively. If Jeter gets to 3,000 hits (and he could), then he's a HOFer. Now? His slugging percentage is a paltry .461 in an age of offensive shortstops. Nomar? A full 100 points higher. A-Rod? .578. They also have significantly higher OPS as well.

Jeter is a good, solid player who is also a team leader. No doubt. But better than Nomar or A-Rod? Not a chance. HOFer? Not at this stage in his career.

[Havok]

wow.... Blackader is right on the money :)

I won't pay Jeter half of what he makes now.

[Alan T]

Originally posted by EagleFan
What happened to your boy Maddux? You've been stroking him the whole thread and now you bail?

I saw many games in the 80s when Ryan was with the Astros that he got shelled. I can't think of many pitchers that I haven't ever seen shelled at some point.

Like I said before, I don't really think Ryan is overrated.. but for a fact I -know- you are underrating Maddux.

[oykib]

Originally posted by EagleFan
What happened to your boy Maddux? You've been stroking him the whole thread and now you bail?

I mentioned him once as being better than Ryan. Then I defended my selection. Ryan played on decent teams. They weren't terrible. Here's a very simple stat:

Maddux - Four Cy Young Awards
Ryan - Zero Cy Young Awards

Maddux was the best NL pitcher during his prime. Ryan was never the best pitcher in his league. Ryan's stats like CG and shutouts are better. But he was playing in an era where there was a lot less offense. When you compare Maddux to the league, he is far superior to Ryan.

I'd take Maddux in a big game over Ryan. Ryan was, as you said, unhittable at his best. But those seven no-hitters are just seven wins. Maddux is just about unbeatable when he's on as well. But he's a lot more likely to be at his best than Ryan.

All things being equal you should go with the strikeout pitcher. But things aren't equal between Maddux and Ryan.

You mentioned Ryan's nearly six thousand Ks. But you didn't mention his nearly three thousand walks. You listed opponent batting average. But you didn't list WHIP or opponent on base average, which are much more closely tied to runs.

[pjstp20]

Originally posted by Blackadar
Read any statistical breakdown of range, players vs. backups, etc. and Jeter is always close to last for shortstops.

So.....what? Jeter should be playing behind Wilson??? If your going to be enamored by statistics there should be no doubt than, that Ryan is better than Maddox. Some people don't realize there is a thing called intangibles that can't be expressed statistically which encompass things like intelligence, instincts, and work ethic.

[Alan T]

Originally posted by pjstp20
So.....what? Jeter should be playing behind Wilson??? If your going to be enamored by statistics there should be no doubt than, that Ryan is better than Maddox. Some people don't realize there is a thing called intangibles that can't be expressed statistically which encompass things like intelligence, instincts, and work ethic.

If the Shortstop was only supposed to help you defensively, then year I would play tons of guys before Jeter, perhaps even Wilson. That does not consider the offensive side in which Jeter had a couple of fantastic years and several better than average ones. Overall that makes Jeter one of the better Shortstops of today. The point is though that he is not a sure fire best shortstop of his era like many claim, since his offense is not as good as several other Shortstops, and his defense is not as good as those same shortstops as well as many others.

Would I want Jeter on my team? Sure if a few other Shortstops were not available before him. His bat makes up for alot of what his defense gives up (although that has been fading the past two years).

[Marmel]

Originally posted by Alan T
The point is though that he is not a sure fire best shortstop of his era like many claim,


Who are these people claiming this? Even if you find me somebody who thinks Jeter is the best SS, show me where they think he is a sure fire best SS.

Like I said before he is one of the top SS's in the league, and I would take him over the others because of the whole package he brings to the table.

By the way, did you see that great play Nomar was involved in last night? ;)

[Marmel]

Originally posted by Blackadar
Just because you play for a team that can afford (and does) buy the World Series doesn't mean that you're a winner. If you think anything else, you're just kidding yourself.



This is my favorite Yankee hater argument.

1) Why didn't the Yankees win in 2001 and 2002?
2) Are the Yankees the only high payroll team? Compare their payroll to some other teams 1998-2002 payrolls. Not a very big differnece.
3) Sorry that we have a team and an owner that plays by the rules of baseball in order to put the best team out on the field every single year.

There is nothing that negates the rest of a person's argument than bringing up the payroll. Does it give an advantage? Of course! Is it the reason they win? Of course not!

[ISiddiqui]

Alan, right on! No one is claiming Jeter is shit. What people are claiming is that he isn't as great defensively as people seem to think he is. His main value is offensive (though he does need to reverse the downward sliding trend).

There is nothing that negates the rest of a person's argument than bringing up the payroll. Does it give an advantage? Of course! Is it the reason they win? Of course not!

What do you mean that it give an advantage but isn't the reason they win? Isn't that a bit contradictory? Unless you are saying it isn't the ONLY reason they win... however, a high payroll has great advantages which allows teams to win.

[Marmel]

I am saying it gives teams like the Yankees an advantage.

But, just from the past year or two, look at these teams:

High Payroll, and they suck: Red Sox, Mets
High Payroll and they are good: Yankees and Braves
Lowpayroll and the suck: Detroit, Tampa
Lowpayroll and they are good: Oakland, Minnesota, Seattle

So while having an advantage is nice, it does not mean you are going to win, and not having that advantage does not mean you are going to lose. I think the only thing it does is give you a longer window of opportunity.

[Marmel]

dola....I really dont want to get into a financial discussion here. It is not the Yankees problem, it is baseball's problem and should be fixed. In fact, instead of blaming the Yankees for their high payroll, people should be blaming the teams that pocket the revenue sharing that goes on and keep a low payroll. They are as much at fault for creating a disparity in payroll and talent as the Yankees.

Anyway, lets keep this as an overrated athlete thread, please. :)

[McSweeny]

Originally posted by Marmel
By the way, did you see that great play Nomar was involved in last night? ;)

we were simming MLBEuro last night in a chat room and a bunch of us had the sox game on... and when that ended we were like, oh i bet Marm is already posting some wise crack

[oykib]

I agree with you, Marmel. But the Mariners are a high payroll team. They are second tier. But they are at the top of the second tier.

[McSweeny]

Originally posted by Marmel
High Payroll, and they suck: Red Sox

second place teams DO NOT suck :p

[ISiddiqui]

McSweeny is correct :D.

So while having an advantage is nice, it does not mean you are going to win, and not having that advantage does not mean you are going to lose.

The 'advantage' however gives you a much better chance to win! The Oakland's and Minnesota's are exceptions to the rule. The playoffs are usually filled with Top 50% payroll teams.

In fact, instead of blaming the Yankees for their high payroll, people should be blaming the teams that pocket the revenue sharing that goes on and keep a low payroll.

To fix both there should a salary cap and salary floor. You can only spend between those two numbers.

[Alan T]

I will tell you what a high payroll/budget gives you:

It gives you bigger room for error. You can bring in some unknown with huge upside and take a risk on him (Like a Jose Contreras). You can get an older pitcher who is pitching great, and if he stops pitching great, you can eat the contract and find someone else.


What it will not do for you is:

Pick the best players. Make wise personal choices.


So that means:

Teams like Baltimore and the Mets that spent like mad, but spent it on really poor personal choices, end up with a payroll that has little return. See the Rangers in this as well.

Teams that do well have spent it wiser.. spent it on their farm system, made better investments such as the Braves and Yankees.


I somewhat hate the Yankees, and acknowledge the extra money is an advantage, but the advantage is as I wrote above. it doesn't auto-buy the championship.

(Even when Florida did it in 1997, they still had to make wise choices on which players to bring in.)

[Daimyo]

Originally posted by pjstp20
If your going to be enamored by statistics there should be no doubt than, that Ryan is better than Maddox.
Sure.. maybe if you're enamored with the wrong statistics...

[Marmel]

Originally posted by McSweeny
we were simming MLBEuro last night in a chat room and a bunch of us had the sox game on... and when that ended we were like, oh i bet Marm is already posting some wise crack

I would have, but the Yankees had a bad outting last night as well.

[thealmighty]

Can't we get a little love here.

High Payroll, and they suck: Red Sox, Mets

Where the hell are the Rangers?

[McSweeny]

ahem


Originally posted by McSweeny
second place teams DO NOT suck :p

[Neuqua]

Didn't Nomar have like a 25 game hit streak this year? And at this point isn't he batting something like .341?

Shut up Marm :)

[ISiddiqui]

Nomar is excellent this year. He might be better than A-Rod at this momentary point in time :D.

[tucker342]

Maybe in some parallel universe Nomar is better than Jeter, but not this one:D

[Neuqua]

Over time I've become so burnt out over these "Who's better" arguments over the shortstops that I simply do not have the energy to continue this one.

[ISiddiqui]

Maybe in some parallel universe Nomar is better than Jeter, but not this one

No, definetly this one. :D

[Blackadar]

Originally posted by Marmel
I am saying it gives teams like the Yankees an advantage.

But, just from the past year or two, look at these teams:

High Payroll, and they suck: Red Sox, Mets
High Payroll and they are good: Yankees and Braves
Lowpayroll and the suck: Detroit, Tampa
Lowpayroll and they are good: Oakland, Minnesota, Seattle

So while having an advantage is nice, it does not mean you are going to win, and not having that advantage does not mean you are going to lose. I think the only thing it does is give you a longer window of opportunity.

The Red Sox won 94 games last year. I don't think that qualifies as "sucks".

As for the Yankees, you can talk about high-payroll teams. Then there's the Yanks. Their Payroll is almost 50% higher THAN ANY OTHER TEAM this year. Only about 5 or 6 teams even have half the payroll.

What can that do for you? Bid on Contrares, which has already been pointed out. How about Jeff Weaver when they already had 5 starters? Keep Sterling Hitchcock and his mega-salary around without batting an eyelash. Or picking up Lieber and paying him 3 times as much just to keep him around and see if he heals. Trade for Mondesi to see if he can fit in RF. There's a lot you can do with an extra $60 million that nobody has.

Don't get me wrong. Jeter is a good player. He does a lot of little "baseball" things well. He's probably a good leader. But he is vastly overrated. In the past 3 years, his slugging percentage among AL SS is most similar to Jose Valentin. I don't think Valentin is going to make the HOF.

At best, Jeter is the 3rd best AL SS in his generation by a longshot. He may only be the 5th or 6th best behind Tejada and Omar Vizquel, but that's arguable. If he plays for another 10 years and averages 150 hits a year, he'd be at 3,000 and a couple of hundred homers. That'd get him into the HOF. If he stops or fades out around 34 - 35 years old, he'd have 2,200 hits. Not good enough for a singles/doubles SS who's at best an average defender.

By the way, even Nomar may have a hard time making it. Too many errors and too many injuries. His stats may not look as good once everyone looks back on this home-run-happy era. A-Rods the only lock for it and only if he keeps this up a few more years.

[Calis]

Originally posted by Marmel
By the way, did you see that great play Nomar was involved in last night?

By the way, did you see that great play Nomar was involved in tonight? ;)

[Blackadar]

Yea, you mean the Home Run? His 13th of the year? :)

[Blackadar]

And I still think Antione Walker should be #1 in the overrated poll.

[Buzzbee]

Originally posted by oykib
Koufax was as great as people believe he was for the six years that he was.

Ok, I know I'm coming in on this thread a little late, and I know this was a post on the first page, but did this make sense to anyone? And does it remind anyone of Bilbo's:

"I don't know half of you as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve"

quote from Lord Of the Rings?

[Schmidty]

How can you people get so worked up over baseball? It's not even a sport!!!!!

If Baseball were a person, it would be at the top of the overrated list.

[lytic]

A lot of good posts in here... Thanks for the great debates!

One more thing... The Yankees are the Microsoft of Baseball. They are turning into a Monopoly. When is someone gonna "cap" their ass?

[larrymcg421]

By the way, Maddux has a 2.09 ERA in 5 World Series starts. Why is he continually maligned as a poor postseason pitcher? His run support in those five games? 2.8

Also, Braves fans are sick and tired of people whining about wide strike zones. If we're all gonna whine about wide strike zones, then can we replay the 1997 NLCS? Thank You.

It's nice that the Maddux-Ryan stat comparison left out almost every stat where Maddux beats Ryan.

[Alan T]

Originally posted by larrymcg421
By the way, Maddux has a 2.09 ERA in 5 World Series starts. Why is he continually maligned as a poor postseason pitcher? His run support in those five games? 2.8


It is usually ignorance that makes people say things like that. I pointed out earlier where Maddux was just as good in the postseason as Ryan was when that comparison was going on.

Its funny sometimes to see what people pull out for reasons why a team crumbles at certain times. The Braves problem for those years was they did not have the hitting in the postseason to get any further. That led to perhaps some of the best World Series games that i can remember (Twins vs Braves series, Blue Jays vs Braves series, etc) where each game was a close pitcher duel heart breaker for them. Their pitching was not their problem in those series, it was their hitting..

The same people are also usually the ones that say Oakland's failure in the postseason recently is because High OBP does not work in the postseason, you have to play small ball, move the runners around, etc.. Those people neglect to look at the statistics and realize that Oakland's pitching fell apart (or at least one of their pitchers has) in the postseason.