OT - So, what do proper Syracuse fans root for now?

[QuikSand]

I've followed the recent soap opera of the ACC/Big East transitions with interest, but not without really strong feelings one way or the other. I generally respect deep traditions, and would have been a bit upset had Syracuse left the Big East and lost its basketball rivalries (I still harken back to the origins of the Big East, and the solid rivalries with Georgetown, St. John's, and maybe Villanova - but especially G'Town). But I recognize that these aren't lifelong blood rivalries - it's not inconceivable to upend two or thre decades of history... it's not like Auburn and Alabama, or the like.

So, it looks like things have simmered down - Syracuse is still in the Big East, and things look just peachy for basketball. (Where, just a reminder here, Syracuse stands as the reigning NCAA Men's College basketball champions) Losing Miami and Va Tech isn't bad at all for basketball - Miami had brief flashes of competence under Leonard Hamilton, but was never a serious player in the conference. Va Tech stinks.

Now, I want to properly ally myself with the forces of good and virtue. I want things to work out well for my alma mater -- but I'm not sure where from here is the best path. My question is basically framed around Syracuse, but is essentialy a question about the Big East as well (assuming SU stays in that conference).

What is the best that could happen here?

-Adding Louisville? Cincinnati? Both?

-Going south and picking up a school like Central Florida?

-Raid the MAC of a school like Marshall?

-Break up the Big East as a football conference, and send the teams to cut their own best deals?


I don't really know. I guess Louisville brings a good deal to the table, and is arguably the best addition in terms of the big two men's sports. I dont' know if the geography makes a lot of sense, or how importat that should be. (I certainly didn't care about geography when Miami was added)


Anyone - Syracuse fan or otherwise - care to offer a thought?

[Anrhydeddu]

http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10892

[QuikSand]

For those of you not inclined to cut and paste to follow the non-link above, I think A is pointing to his post in the other general thread (about this whole issue) where he suggests that Syracuse could/should still jump to the ACC. Just FYI.

[Daimyo]

Since Notre Dame seems out of reach, I'm hoping Syracuse joins the Big Ten. I don't know if that is in SU's best interests or not. I'm curious what SU fans would think of that. My impression is that NY'ers greatly look down on the midwest, so I imagine it wouldn't be a popular move for the fans.

[Anrhydeddu]

It's more than that. Others talk about the viability of the Big East and whether it's a conference that should SU should even considering staying in. Marmel is making his case as well. Should we continue that discussion here? It doesn't matter either way.

[Marmel]

I have always been a fan of the Big10 conference and wouldn't mind SU ended up there. If they split into East-West type divisions, SU would fit in pretty decent with a nice group of 'Great Lake' teams. I would be happy with that.

If that does not work, I guess a combination of Louisville, a Florida Directional School, and a Marshall might work.

The only option (which I have repeated elsewhere) that I do not want to see is SU to the ACC.

[Marmel]

dola....

Daimyo I just saw your comment about the East coasters attitude on the Midwest, and you are probably correct, but I think we understand the way those universities operate, and can respect that. Syracuse is definitly an 'East Coast' School, but because of its upstate New York location, I believe the people up there operate a little like both sections of the country...

[Bee]

I think the first question is "Will the Big East remain as both a football and basketball conference?". I suspect that's likely, but not guaranteed. If they do, I suspect Louisville is a guaranteed lock for the Big East. I also think Central Florida is almost as likely because of the needed access to recruits in Florida for all the football schools. I think it likely that Cincinnati will replace Temple. Just my opinion, but I think if they go down this road they will remain a BCS conference (although the weakest of the BCS conferences). In fact, remaining a BCS conference beyond 2005 might be part of a deal that could be cut to drop the lawsuit.

If the conference splits, I'd look for the football schools to be picked up by various conferences (Syracuse most likely becoming the 12th team in the ACC IMO). I think the basketball schools will form a new Big East basketball only conference by adding some of the basketball only schools that have previously been mentioned.

What's best for Syracuse? I'd guess if the conference splits would be the best financially. If the conference sticks together, it might be best for "tradition". I think Syracuse will come out in good shape no matter what happens.

[QuikSand]

I have serious reservations about the Big Ten. largely because I grew up in Big Ten country, an Ohio State fan. The Big Ten has a fairly strong sense of regionalism - and is pretty strongly identified with its midwestern roots. In fact, I know there were people way back when on this site when we were discussing the precies meanings of geographical terms who defined the term "midwest" simply in terms of the Big Ten, not including the eleventh member.

My concern about joining the Big Ten is not at all one of competition - it's purely one of acceptance. I think Penn State is a poor fit for the Big Ten, and they still are not really thought of by the traditional schools in that conferences as anything more than an addition of convenience. I have trouble seeing Syracuse being received any more warmly-- especially since (despite geography) Syracuse may have a more easternly/northeasternly perception than Penn State does. There is no question that Syracuse's students and following are centered in New York/Long Island, Boston/Northeast, Upstate New York, and then perhaps the Mid-Atlantic (Washington area much more so than any of teh traditional Big Ten territory. I have to imagine that this would be a barrier of some sort, on top of the Big Ten's traditions.

I guess my bottom line with SU in the Big 10 would be-- if it "worked," it would probably be great. But I have real doubts whether it would work, at least in the foreseeable future of 10-15 years.

The potential upside would be a presumably renewed rivalry with Penn State, and possibly a regular season-end game with them (ending the sham that is the Mich St/Penn St game on rivalry weekend). Syracuse has something of an axe to grind with PSU, who ducked out on their long-standing annual rivalry game just a SU football was starting to get good again.

[Marmel]

Your Syracuse/Midwest notes are very reasonable, but I think SU would have been an even worse fit in the Good Ole Boys' ACC conference, yet that was as close to a done deal as it gets.

[Anrhydeddu]

I still get a chuckle out of Big East "tradition", in regards to football. It's a relatively recent conference (since 1979) so most of SU's history is not tied there. Even during the long run of winning seasons, it had always been a controversy as to how to rate the Big East champion in the major bowl picture (which SU got screwed a few times because of it, just like BYU in the WAC). My arguments have been centered on national exposure - which is what drives the TV contracts and the BCS picture. Without Miami, the Big East is truly a regional conference at best (but not even that popular in their own region). SU vs. any other team will not be on national coverage (like SU/UM had been). SU vs. some of the elite teams in the B10 and ACC will give them that exposure.

[illinifan999]

I'd like to see SU in the Big Ten. Even though they'd probably beat Illinois in football and baseketball I'd like to see them in there. Plus maybe that would make Illinois beef up their lacrosse program. ;)

[cthomer5000]

The question I'm really beginning to ask myself is "What is the best situation for all involved?"

The Big East clearly has a good thing going in basketball (although you can argue that it's a bit too big a conference), and I suspect that is the only thing that might keep the Big East from exploding.

I think trying to lure Penn State out of the big 10 and back where they belong could be a move that would benefit everyone. It really doesn't hurt the Big 10, it makes Penn State the premier team in the coference, and it helps the Big East maintain credibility (and thus, giving it a much better chance to retain a BCS bid).

how about this alignment:

Penn State
Boston College
Syracuse
Pitt
Louisville
West Virginia
Rutgers
U-Conn


If the big east could land Penn State and Louisville, it'd replace the departing programs with those of slighty worse stature. Louisville would obviously be a very nice basketball gain as well.

I think ultimately the major issue in the Big East is reaching agreement between the basketball schools and the football/basketball schools.

[Bee]

I can't imagine any reason for Penn State to go to the Big East. It would be great for the Big East, but I don't think it would ever happen.

[Marmel]

I am not holding out hope for Penn St. A Eastern Football conference with Penn St. is what Joe Pa wanted and pushed for, but that was what? 15 years ago....

They would be a better fit in the East, but I am afraid they would risk too much to actually make the move.

[scooper]

What about unproper Syracuse fans?

[Bee]

Originally posted by scooper
What about unpopular Syracuse fans?

That covers just about all of them doesn't it?

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by scooper
What about unproper Syracuse fans?

Isn't that unproper usage?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally posted by Marmel
The only option (which I have repeated elsewhere) that I do not want to see is SU to the ACC.

Well, you've got at least one ACC guy right here who agrees with you on that.

It's nothing personal, I just don't care for the wacky conference geography that it creates (FTR, I opposed the addition of BC for the same reason).

'Course, we all realize that what the fans want doesn't really amount to much in all this.

[Anrhydeddu]

I don't understand that mindset (not wanting SU in ACC). Whatever hard feelings there are now will be blown over in year (replaced by other controversies). It's all about money and prestige and to say that SU is in a favorable situation currently when compared to being in the ACC, is puzzling imo. Think about the difference of being in a BCS conference vs. not being in one (which the Big East will be very soon).

[Marmel]

A-

Basically, I like to think Syracuse is a cut above the likes of say.............Virginia Tech, and that as an institution of higher learning, maybe Syracuse can be one of the (very) few schools where integrity is mightier than the dollar.

[Noop]

Why would you want Central Florida? South Florida by far is the better football and basketball and could in a couple of seasons be a serious threat to take the 3rd stop in Florida.

:)

noop

[Bee]

Central Florida brings the Orlando market vs the Tampa market. (A growing market vs a stagnant market).

[Kodos]

I think Penn State wouldn't want to step down from the Big Ten into a weakened Big East.

Also, do you think the Big Ten will ever adopt a new name, especially if they move to 12 teams?

[dacman]

Originally posted by QuikSand
My concern about joining the Big Ten is not at all one of competition - it's purely one of acceptance. I think Penn State is a poor fit for the Big Ten, and they still are not really thought of by the traditional schools in that conferences as anything more than an addition of convenience.

You've been out of Big Ten country too long QS -- most BT folks I know LOVE that PSU is in the Big Ten (for football at least which drives the bus). If anything, a lot of Big Ten folks (alumni, supporters, not administration mind you) would be all for dropping Northwestern and going back to 10.

BTW, there is about ZERO interest among the powers that be for adding Syracuse to the Big Ten.

There is a lot of talk about dropping the 12 team requirement for a conference championship game for football down to 10 teams, so a huge motivating factor for adding teams to get to 12 might be eliminated soon.

[dacman]

Originally posted by Kodos
Also, do you think the Big Ten will ever adopt a new name, especially if they move to 12 teams?

Nope -- they already decided in 99 to stick with the name "Big Ten" even if ND would've joined up. Weird, I know.

[Bee]

The AD at Arkansas says he thinks the ACC will target a SEC school to add a 12th team. Interesting...

[Anrhydeddu]

Originally posted by Marmel
A-

Basically, I like to think Syracuse is a cut above the likes of say.............Virginia Tech, and that as an institution of higher learning, maybe Syracuse can be one of the (very) few schools where integrity is mightier than the dollar.

You know that I have argued for the dream of not having any D1 football programs but the reality today is to get better and stronger and bigger. It is my perception that football brings in more wealth than all other sports combined. SU, as strong supporters of minor sports like lacrosse, as well as strong academic programs, cannot afford to take a financial hit that will be coming.

[scooper]

Originally posted by Kodos


Also, do you think the Big Ten will ever adopt a new name, especially if they move to 12 teams?

I like the Big Televen. :D

[dacman]

Originally posted by Bee
The AD at Arkansas says he thinks the ACC will target a SEC school to add a 12th team. Interesting...

Clemson? I could see that being an OK fit. edit: I'll leave this one in for a chuckle. :)

South Carolina? Meeh.

Florida? Woah -- that would make the ACC a super-conference fer sure, but somehow I don't see that happening.

Georgia/GT? Nah.

Don't see anyone else on that horizon.

[Noop]

Originally posted by Bee
Central Florida brings the Orlando market vs the Tampa market. (A growing market vs a stagnant market).

T.V. markets don't mean a thing because the SEC dont really have big markets and yet people still watch it. One reason its all regionally and their rivals are natural and make since.


:)

noop

[scooper]

Originally posted by Noop
T.V. markets don't mean a thing because the SEC dont really have big markets and yet people still watch it. One reason its all regionally and their rivals are natural and make since.


:)

noop

On the contrary, TV markets mean everything. That's why Syracuse and Boston College were originally involved.

Though your input on the fledgling Florida programs is appreciated as they could end up players in this whole mess.

[Anrhydeddu]

Noop,

I can diss USF because my wife is a graduate from there. :) USF has just entered D1 and still have a long ways to go. In the BE, they would be on par with Temple right now (but with a better future obviously). Folks underestimate the Northeast-Florida connection so I can see the interest but USF would be a stretch.

[MylesKnight]

Originally posted by Noop
Why would you want Central Florida? South Florida by far is the better football and basketball and could in a couple of seasons be a serious threat to take the 3rd stop in Florida.

:)

noop

Noop, Noop, Noop... You sure do know how to get on my good side, don't ya? ;)

I would say in argument that your "by far" comment is a bit extreme. Currently, yes USF does have a better Hoops Program, that mainly having to do with the amount of time they've spent at the Division I level in all sports except for Football compared to UCF, and the current membership the Bulls have in CUSA. This is something that would definitely even out in my opinion if UCF currently had a similar Conference to compete in.

As for Football, I'd say that one is about as nip and tuck as it gets. Sure, USF went 9-2 last season while UCF went 7-5 but take a quick look at each school's schedule if you would. And for USF, take a look at their schedules they've played since moving up to Division I-A a couple of years ago.. I don't think UCF would've had a hard time matching USF's record in that time with those schedules.

At the end of the day though (or shall I in upcoming years), UCF and USF will both continue to close the gap between themselves and the so called "Big 3 of Florida". It's just a matter of time my friend.

[MylesKnight]

By the way Noop, here's an excerpt of a post I made on the other thread regarding this whole ACC/Big East/College Football Expansion Mumbo Jumbo situation, regarding my Alma Mater and the Big East.. In case you didn't check that one out already my friend...


..As for UCF in particular, Football would compete right away (in the Big East) and only get better, Baseball would be very strong, Women's Sports would be very strong outside of Hoops right away, and all other Men's Sports outside of Hoops would compete well..

Men's & Women's Basketball would be the two things that would definitely need the most work, but if you took a look at what UCF is doing in terms of upgrading those programs, you'd see why they would definitely be worth the risk. A new 10,000+ seat On-Campus Arena is on the way, $$ is being spent to build a new Sports Training Facility which will be done within the year and we have ourselves an Athletic Director whose stated goal is to get this University into the big time level of Division I-A Athletics and is doing whatever it takes to take the steps to make this happen with the unwavering support of the University Brass.

[SunDancer]

Originally posted by dacman
Clemson? I could see that being an OK fit. edit: I'll leave this one in for a chuckle. :)

South Carolina? Meeh.

Florida? Woah -- that would make the ACC a super-conference fer sure, but somehow I don't see that happening.

Georgia/GT? Nah.

Don't see anyone else on that horizon.

Vanderbilt could be a possible target.

[Anrhydeddu]

Vanderbilt? The worse team from the SEC??

I am aware of the connection between academic prestige and athletic programs, but I don't believe there is any such thing as a Big East Academic League, is there? So why the nonsense about the Big East preserving its academic excellence? It had Miami in there all of those years, did it not?

[dacman]

Originally posted by SunDancer
Vanderbilt could be a possible target.

For who? The ACC? No chance in hell. The Big East? I rather doubt it -- maybe on the list, but not 1st choice material.

[scooper]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
Vanderbilt? The worse team from the SEC??

I am aware of the connection between academic prestige and athletic programs, but I don't believe there is any such thing as a Big East Academic League, is there? So why the nonsense about the Big East preserving its academic excellence? It had Miami in there all of those years, did it not?

I believe the Vandy reference was in regard to the ACC looking for a 12th team, not the Big East. If that is the case, I could see it as a fit. They would bring nothing to the table football-wise, but with the addition of Miami and V-tech, the conference is set for football but they might be a more attractive addition/appeasement to Tobacco Road.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I've always wished the ACC could swap the SEC straight up, Clemson for Vanderbilt. Each, IMO, is a better fit in the other conference.

[Noop]

MylesKnight

I'm not a fan of South Florida by a longshot but lets look at it thru clear eyes not the gold and black one you have. I know they played a weak schedule but they played Oklahoma real close if you watched the game. USF gives a overall appeal to the Big East or whatever league they join UCF is okay but Orlando doesn't have anything but Wet and Wild. UCF in my opinion is only known for Daunte Culpepper and that my friend just doesn't do it for me, but I'm not the one making the choice so it doesn't matter.

scooper

The ACC would make sense if it allowed SU and BC, also the only reason why they were considered was because Shalala is a SU alumi and want to bring them along. As a Norte Dame "fan" shouldn't you be worried what you guys are going to do in 2005 when your T.V. contract run out?

[MylesKnight]

Maybe the biggest question coming out of all this though is, will Duke ever be able to end that ACC Football Winless Streak? I believe it's at 25 and counting right now, with Miami and Virginia Tech to be added to the slate shortly. YIKES!! :D

[Anrhydeddu]

...and USF is only know for...the Grammatica assholes?

[Noop]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
...and USF is only know for...the Grammatica assholes?

Why all the beef?

:)

noop

[Samdari]

Originally posted by QuikSand
I have serious reservations about the Big Ten. largely because I grew up in Big Ten country, an Ohio State fan. The Big Ten has a fairly strong sense of regionalism - and is pretty strongly identified with its midwestern roots. In fact, I know there were people way back when on this site when we were discussing the precies meanings of geographical terms who defined the term "midwest" simply in terms of the Big Ten, not including the eleventh member.

My concern about joining the Big Ten is not at all one of competition - it's purely one of acceptance. I think Penn State is a poor fit for the Big Ten, and they still are not really thought of by the traditional schools in that conferences as anything more than an addition of convenience. I have trouble seeing Syracuse being received any more warmly-- especially since (despite geography) Syracuse may have a more easternly/northeasternly perception than Penn State does. There is no question that Syracuse's students and following are centered in New York/Long Island, Boston/Northeast, Upstate New York, and then perhaps the Mid-Atlantic (Washington area much more so than any of teh traditional Big Ten territory. I have to imagine that this would be a barrier of some sort, on top of the Big Ten's traditions.

I guess my bottom line with SU in the Big 10 would be-- if it "worked," it would probably be great. But I have real doubts whether it would work, at least in the foreseeable future of 10-15 years.

The potential upside would be a presumably renewed rivalry with Penn State, and possibly a regular season-end game with them (ending the sham that is the Mich St/Penn St game on rivalry weekend). Syracuse has something of an axe to grind with PSU, who ducked out on their long-standing annual rivalry game just a SU football was starting to get good again.
A few points here:

Penn State is further east and less midwestern than Syracuse. The Big 10 lost all rights to feel all regional when they added PSU.

Also, the whole Penn State/SU "rivalry" was only ever a rivalry on SU's side. To Penn State it was just another game. Their "rival" the team they wanted to beat most, was always Pitt. PSU dominated the East for 20 years, and every week, played someone that was playing their biggest game of the year. To PSU, Syracuse was just another one of those games.

[Wolfpack]

I'd take Navy before Vandy. Seriously. We already have Duke and Duke at least plays basketball at present. Vandy's been AWOL in that department for a few years now. Navy at least would bring a "global" fan base, not to mention support from the various naval and marine bases throughout the southeast, and one of the most prestigious and watched games in college football into the league. Who knows? It might make Navy varsity sports better able to compete with the Air Force, who have benefitted from a strong relationship in the MWC to generally be the best service academy sports-wise.

Also, while adding UF, UGa, or USuCk to the ACC would be intriguing, I don't think there is mutual interest in either the ACC or the said institutions for change. Both conferences tend to take a general pride in that they are not the other conference. The ACC went after Big East targets because they were good schools and the Big East had a much weaker loyalty structure than the SEC has built for about 80 years. It was easier to pluck the Big East. It still is. The only other candidates for the 12th in the ACC are in CUSA or are independent, or Penn State and that's only because the Lions have been Big 10 members for just over 10 years.

Now, back to the topic at hand, I'm not at all sure what Syracuse, et al, should do. It really depends on if they can get a big name for the football league. Syracuse, Pittsburgh, and WVU are respectable and solid programs, but they just don't have the name recognition in football. You need something to get the networks fighting to carry your games and unfortunately, those three schools don't have that kind of weight, at least in football. In a few years, absent Miami or VT in the league, then yes, one or two of them might be able to have that kind of recognition, but does the Big East have enough time to develop these programs into nationally recognized ones? The reason the ACC made this jump is not really because the ACC is still a one-trick pony in football. The rise of NC State (two straight wins over FSU and 3 of 5), Virginia, and Maryland contradicts this. (Yes, they do need to sustain it, but there is every indication that they won't fall back right now.) The need to expand was driven by the fact that the ACC, regardless of the growing strength of some of its programs, was still perceived as a one-team league, a concern in light of the next TV rights negotiation in football was in 2005. Syracuse and Pittsburgh could be great teams next year, but everyone still thinks the Big East is Miami and the other seven, much as FSU is the ACC and the "little eight", in spite of any information to the contrary.

If the Big East can land Notre Dame (at whatever cost) or Penn State, then they'll survive as a football league with a BCS bid. Anything else, and I'm just not sure what the draw card will be to remain in the BCS after three years. (Granted, the BCS itself is up for changing after that time, so anything's possible)

[MylesKnight]

Noop, let me respond by saying that UCF has played pretty much whomever the superior opponent has been in past very close as well.

Yes I saw the USF/Oklahoma Game, but did you see the USF/Arkansas Game? This was the same Arkansas team that UCF almost beat in Fayetteville the season before.. USF was absolutely whitewashed by the Hogs.

Hey, I'm not saying UCF blows USF away, not by any stretch of the imagination.. But I am saying these two are awfully close in terms of overall Universities, including Athletics. To make the statement that USF is far superior to UCF is just flat out wrong in my opinion..

I don't think I speak with a UCF Bias when I'm talking about all of this, but maybe there is a bit of one. I just think a lot of people are misinformed about UCF, as well as USF, and fall into that "Well they're just another Directional School" frame of mind.

..But as you said before, our opinions really don't make a bit of a difference do they. It's fun to talk about it though. :)

[Wolfpack]

dola,

I've got to shorten my posts. The conversation moves rather quickly from the time I finish reading to the time I finish posting. :)

[MylesKnight]

Wolfpack, my friend, you really think Navy would consider moving all of their sports from the Patriot League, a Conference where they currently have a tough time competing in most sports, to a League like the ACC?

Now Football-Only I could see, but Overall, no way.

One of these days Navy will join a Conference for Football-Only though. My $$$$ is on either the MAC or C-USA after this whole Realignment Process is finished.

[scooper]

Originally posted by Noop


As a Norte Dame "fan" shouldn't you be worried what you guys are going to do in 2005 when your T.V. contract run out?

First of all, I'm not sure why you place "fan" in quotes.

The TV contract will be renewed. ND may not currently be the best team in college football (I'd be a fool to argue otherwise) but they are the most watched, either by those who love them or those who hate them. Plus, they play a national schedule full of top programs. This may sound like a snobbish opinion, but it's not. I don't mean it as any indication as to ND's status as a competitive program. They are simply the biggest business in college football. I'm not ashamed to admit that. They will have a TV contract after 2005.

I was sincere on my appreciation for input on UCF and USF. Both are intriguing programs. They don't get much press nationally, but down the road a few years, that can change. The fact is there is a lot of talent to go around in Florida and the big three can't get them all.

[ISiddiqui]

The Big 10 lost all rights to feel all regional when they added PSU.

No they didn't. They still have to vote on who to add, and if they still feel it is a regional conference + PSU, then they can feel that way.

[Swaggs]

I wonder if the Big East might consider offering Penn State the same sweetheart deal that they offered Miami at the 11th hour.

Getting PSU would guarantee the BCS would remain with the Big East and would give the conference its anchor school and some national TV possibilities.

PSU would probably get the BE's BCS 2-3 times out of every 5 years, rather than once every 5 years, as they do now in the Big 10, giving them a much better chance to win national championships. They would easily become the marquee team in the conference, escaping the shadow of Ohio State and Michigan.

[Anrhydeddu]

Originally posted by Samdari
A few points here:

Penn State is further east and less midwestern than Syracuse. The Big 10 lost all rights to feel all regional when they added PSU.

Also, the whole Penn State/SU "rivalry" was only ever a rivalry on SU's side. To Penn State it was just another game. Their "rival" the team they wanted to beat most, was always Pitt. PSU dominated the East for 20 years, and every week, played someone that was playing their biggest game of the year. To PSU, Syracuse was just another one of those games.

Not true. Even though their game with Pitt happened on Thanksgiving weekend, nearly all of the games that SU was to be the away team in their series - were scheduled by PSU to be the homecoming game. Perhaps not as strong as Pitt but certainly not "just another game".

[Noop]

Originally posted by scooper
First of all, I'm not sure why you place "fan" in quotes.

The TV contract will be renewed. ND may not currently be the best team in college football (I'd be a fool to argue otherwise) but they are the most watched, either by those who love them or those who hate them. Plus, they play a national schedule full of top programs. This may sound like a snobbish opinion, but it's not. I don't mean it as any indication as to ND's status as a competitive program. They are simply the biggest business in college football. I'm not ashamed to admit that. They will have a TV contract after 2005.




I put the qoutes around fan because ND has some of the most snobbish fans I've ever meet and only like Notre Dame because they win. But after reading your post I can see your a honest ND as well as a fan of college football. So your a fan and not a "fan" also I dont believe ND will get that contract renewed. Wouldn't make sense if the BCS does become a playoff system. It could happen....

:)

noop

[scooper]

Originally posted by Noop
I put the qoutes around fan because ND has some of the most snobbish fans I've ever meet and only like Notre Dame because they win. But after reading your post I can see your a honest ND as well as a fan of college football. So your a fan and not a "fan" also I dont believe ND will get that contract renewed. Wouldn't make sense if the BCS does become a playoff system. It could happen....

:)

noop

Fair enough, but I think ND fans deserve more credit. Yes, many are snobbish (I try not to be as I have nothing to be snobbish about), but it's been 10 years since we've had a true national championship contender and the fan base is still strong. We are more loyal than you give us credit for. Funny thing is, I latched on as a young lad during the Gerry Faust years, certainly not the height of ND success.

You're right. A playoff system would change everything, but I don't think we are close to seeing that. Not yet. The BCS is not perfect (understatement of the year) but there has yet to be the complete meltdown that will cause real change.

ND can play their cards patiently. If a playoff system does happen, there will be conferences willing to make room at the drop of a hat for ND. Just like ND, the rest of the college football world is driven by money. They may not be a top 10 program, but ND=$$$$.

By the way, I tend to think with Ty around, they will return to competing for national championships. He has certainly re-opened the talent pipeline and unlike Davie, he seems to know what to do with them.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to the Nole rematch this year, as I'm sure you are as well. But first there are other big fish to fry.

[Buzzbee]

A couple of thoughts:

I certainly HOPE the ACC doesn't screw up and go messing with the SEC. If they do, I think it would be VERY easy for the SEC to lure away a Florida State, a Clemson, and or a Georgia Tech. The only schools I can see the ACC taking from the SEC would be South Carolina or Vanderbilt. South Carolina might not be a bad fit for the ACC. It certainly fits in the geography, and the Clemson/SC rivialry already exists. While SC's reputation in basketball is somewhat sketchy, there is at least SOME history (back in the 50's or 60's with McGuire coaching). Vanderbilt belongs in the Ivy league, or the Patriot league, or the we suck at athletics league.

In regard to Penn State moving to the Big East, why would they? Yes, they might have a better chance at a BCS bid, but I think there are a lot of negatives that outweigh that. One would be regular season football revenue. PSU would go from playing teams like Ohio State, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Michigan State, to teams like Boston College, Syracuse, West Virginia, and UConn. There is no comparison, at least in my opinion, in regard to potential revenues from ticket sales, concessions, merchandise, etc. Also, I believe moving out of the Big Ten would hurt PSU's football recruiting. The opportunity to play against big time, reputable programs attracts big time recruits. Yes, there are sports other than football, but football is the big money maker.

[Noop]

scooper

I'm also looking forward to that game as well...last seasoned stung badly but we're looking for a little payback ;)

:)

noop

[scooper]

Originally posted by Noop
scooper

I'm also looking forward to that game as well...last seasoned stung badly but we're looking for a little payback ;)

:)

noop

I turned down Ohio State-Penn State tickets to stay home alone and watch that game. Well worth it, I might say. While I enjoyed the outcome, it was not a classic. I think this season's game has the potential to be a classic. 93 was, even FSU fans have to admit that was an exciting game, down to Shawn Woooden batting down Charlie Ward's last second pass to the endzone.

I love that they are playing the series again, sadly ND's schedule is full for a few years after this but maybe they can pick it up again later.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally posted by Buzzbee
A couple of thoughts:

I certainly HOPE the ACC doesn't screw up and go messing with the SEC. If they do, I think it would be VERY easy for the SEC to lure away a Florida State, a Clemson, and or a Georgia Tech. The only schools I can see the ACC taking from the SEC would be South Carolina or Vanderbilt. South Carolina might not be a bad fit for the ACC. It certainly fits in the geography, and the Clemson/SC rivialry already exists. While SC's reputation in basketball is somewhat sketchy, there is at least SOME history (back in the 50's or 60's with McGuire coaching). Vanderbilt belongs in the Ivy league, or the Patriot league, or the we suck at athletics league.

In regard to Penn State moving to the Big East, why would they? Yes, they might have a better chance at a BCS bid, but I think there are a lot of negatives that outweigh that. One would be regular season football revenue. PSU would go from playing teams like Ohio State, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Michigan State, to teams like Boston College, Syracuse, West Virginia, and UConn. There is no comparison, at least in my opinion, in regard to potential revenues from ticket sales, concessions, merchandise, etc. Also, I believe moving out of the Big Ten would hurt PSU's football recruiting. The opportunity to play against big time, reputable programs attracts big time recruits. Yes, there are sports other than football, but football is the big money maker.

I don't think Penn State will go Big East, but let's not disparage the Big East games too much.

There's a lot of history with playing WVU and Pitt in Penn State. Penn State/Pitt is/was a major rivalry and would be a great annual game, with more fans riled up than playing Wisconsin or MSU. Some of Penn State's best and worst moments on the gridiron were versus WVU and they created a healthy rivalry in the 70's and 80's when they would trade lopsided wins.

To this day, a JoePa coached team has not given up as many points in one half as it did against WVU, for example. Both WVU and Pitt offer more regional hype than anything the Big Ten can toss. So, while I don't believe that Penn State will jump ship, it's not because the games that the Big East offers will stunt stadium revenues.

-Anxiety

[Swaggs]

Penn State will sell out its stadium regardless of who they are playing, so I don't think attendance or concessions is an issure in either conference or if they are an independent.

As for merchandising, I would think the chance to go 12-0 (in a weakened Big East where they would be king) and get into a national championship game versus 10-2 (in the B10, where they will never be more than third fiddle behind UM and tOSU, in my opinion) and un upper tier bowl would increase their national exposure and improve their national sales.

I am certainly not saying they would take an offer from the Big East, but just suggesting that it would be worthwhile for the BE to make them the same offer they made Miami, in order to have an anchor school. Of course, an offer like that could backfire and give PSU enough leverage within the Big 10 to get Pitt in, or risk losing PSU.

[Wolfpack]

MK: I'm perfectly aware of Navy's shortcomings. It was more of a putdown against Vandy rather than a booster for Navy. It would indeed be an incredibly large gap for the Middies to overcome to be a competitor in the present ACC configuration, particularly outside football.

If the ACC were to go to 12, I think the best candidate is Pittsburgh. Closer than Syracuse, has a much better academic reputation than West-by-God-Virginia, and is a private school kinda-sorta-almost-but-not-quite-in-the-Northeast, not to mention a decent two-sport school. Syracuse wouldn't be bad, but after all that's happened, I don't think they'd want us anymore, as Marmel said (just how much pride could be stand to be swallowed if such an offer were made is up for debate...VT had absolutely none in that respect, but that's VT). I can't see ND (too self-important), Penn State (too hard to pry from the Big 10), BC (too far, may also be unforgiving of ACC), or Louisville (just isn't the right fit culturally to me) coming in. The ACC probably would also not take on any Florida school for much the same reason they wouldn't take ECU (lesson from having four schools in NC is that it's perhaps a bad thing to have too many schools in the same state...besides, do FSU and Miami want UCF or USF anyway, or do they view them like the Big Four views ECU?) That pretty much leaves Navy (negatives abound unless there was a radical turnaround), WVU (academics a problem), and Pittsburgh as likely targets after they try and fail to get ND and PSU. Of those, I'd want Pittsburgh.

[Buzzbee]

Anxiety and Swaggs, you make valid points, but I'm still not so sure that a PSU vs. West Virginia matchup is as compelling as Penn State/Michigan, or Penn State/Ohio State. Yes, Penn/Pitt would be a given, but don't the two play out of conference games against each other every once in a while now? I thought they did which is why I didn't list that game under either conference.

Yes, being the big fish in the little pond has it's advantages, but Florida State and Miami both seem to want to shake that stigma....even though they have BOTH won National Titles in the last 5 years.

[Bee]

Originally posted by Wolfpack
WVU (academics a problem)

Hey!

As a gradient from West Virgenia Unavercity I rescent that remarck!

I was learnt reel good during my 6 1/2 yeares at WVU! And that inclues both of my Senyor yeares!

Edit: oops mispelled learnt!

[MylesKnight]

One thing I've found interesting is that the there are only 4 schools involved in the Big East's lawsuit against the ACC and Miami (and now Virginia Tech as well possibly).

I read this somewhere earlier today.. Damn, where is the Link..

Anyway, who are the 4? I know UConn is one.. But who else? Have BC and/or Syracuse joined in the group? Have Pitt, WVU or Rutgers left?

Will this make any kind of a difference when it comes to deciding who the 12th ACC invitee will be down the road? (Although I think the invite to Virginia Tech may have already answered that question).

And by the way, Wolfpack, I would say UCF & USF are in a similar situation to East Carolina although maybe not as severly yet. One thing that has been noticed is the "Big 3" of Florida's reluctance to play UCF or USF in a lot of sports. Kudos to Miami though for agreeing to a 2 for 1 matchup with UCF on the Gridiron in the near future.

As for UCF or USF being the 12th ACC Invitee... I'd call that one about the longest shot there is in all of this.. Oh well, we can still dream though can't we? :D

[Samdari]

Originally posted by ISiddiqui
No they didn't. They still have to vote on who to add, and if they still feel it is a regional conference + PSU, then they can feel that way.

Good point. They can feel however they want.

After adding Penn State, they lost the ability to publicly claim they are a regional conference and not look like idiots.

[Wolfpack]

The lawsuit is now down to UConn, Rutgers, Pittsburgh, and West Virginia, I believe. Also, with Virginia Tech (and more importantly, the state of Virginia) dropping from the suit, it's supposed to be easier to get the case punted to federal court where the ACC can get a better chance at having it dismissed.

[QuikSand]

I offered this observation:

Originally posted by QuikSand
...especially since (despite geography) Syracuse may have a more easternly/northeasternly perception than Penn State does.

To which you firmly "corrected" me by saying:

Originally posted by Samdari
A few points here:

Penn State is further east and less midwestern than Syracuse.


I'm pretty familiar with the geography, as I sought to indicate clearly in the sleection I quote above. As for the "attitude" of the two schools, I would submit that I believe Penn State at least has a better conceptual and cultural tie to the schools of the Big Ten - a very large, fairly rurally located, flagship-type state school.

As far as its gegraphic draw, I'd have trouble accepting that Penn State skews more "east" than does Syracuse, regardless of their respective geographic locations.

I'll stand by my statement.

[MylesKnight]

Pittsburgh does sound like a very interesting prospect for the ACC. Top Notch Facilities for the 2 Major Sports, up and coming programs in both sports (although with their Hoops Coach leaving for UCLA we shall see what happens with that), and a solid metro location, one in which the ACC has no foothold what-so-ever currently.

I would like to check out some mileage charts and compare Pittsburgh to say Louisville and the rest of the ACC Schools. Again, Miami isn't what I would call a close neighbor to any of the their other ACC Breatheren, but Hurricane Football will definitely make up for that. Although I believe Pittsburgh is closer to what would be their closest ACC Rival (Maryland) than Miami will be to their's (FSU).

[MylesKnight]

DOLA!!

Also, I still would like to know an answer to this.. What happens with Temple and the Big East?

Has there been any discussion between the two of keeping Temple and giving them an All-Sports Invite now that Miami and Virginia Tech are leaving the Conference?

Remember, Temple is scheduled to leave the Big East Football Conference in 2004, with UConn moving in to take their place. Where Temple was headed at that point, who knows?

[Anrhydeddu]

QS is correct. Syracuse, as part of the rural Upstate New York region, has its ties to New England and to the river highways of the Mohawk and Hudson valleys (think Erie Canal). Even though it is very close to a Great Lakes, its growth and history all comes from the East.

PSU and its region, on the other hand, primarily grew as an outgrowth from the Westward movement into the Ohio River Valley (State College is west of the Blue Ridge range). (It also benefitted secondarily from the West Branch of the Susquehanna River.) It was the movement across the Blue Ridge that populated the Old Northwest states of Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, etc. Whereas Upstate New York was populated by New Englanders, Western Pennsylvania was populated from the Pennsylvania Germans and the Scot-Irish that had dominated (and still does) the Appalachian region extending from Western Penn, West Virgina and down through KY, VA , NC and GA.

[Samdari]

Originally posted by Wolfpack
MK: I'm perfectly aware of Navy's shortcomings. It was more of a putdown against Vandy rather than a booster for Navy. It would indeed be an incredibly large gap for the Middies to overcome to be a competitor in the present ACC configuration, particularly outside football.

If the ACC were to go to 12, I think the best candidate is Pittsburgh. Closer than Syracuse, has a much better academic reputation than West-by-God-Virginia, and is a private school kinda-sorta-almost-but-not-quite-in-the-Northeast, not to mention a decent two-sport school. Syracuse wouldn't be bad, but after all that's happened, I don't think they'd want us anymore, as Marmel said (just how much pride could be stand to be swallowed if such an offer were made is up for debate...VT had absolutely none in that respect, but that's VT). I can't see ND (too self-important), Penn State (too hard to pry from the Big 10), BC (too far, may also be unforgiving of ACC), or Louisville (just isn't the right fit culturally to me) coming in. The ACC probably would also not take on any Florida school for much the same reason they wouldn't take ECU (lesson from having four schools in NC is that it's perhaps a bad thing to have too many schools in the same state...besides, do FSU and Miami want UCF or USF anyway, or do they view them like the Big Four views ECU?) That pretty much leaves Navy (negatives abound unless there was a radical turnaround), WVU (academics a problem), and Pittsburgh as likely targets after they try and fail to get ND and PSU. Of those, I'd want Pittsburgh.

This is an astute analysis Wolfpack, but you are analyzing this for all the right reasons, which makes them not at all the reasons the ACC will look for in a 12th school. I think you are overrating the importance of distance a bit. Pitt is also way outside the epicenter of the ACC, and is only a slightly less shitty geographic fit.

The 12th school will be added with a single criterion: how much additional revenue that school is perceived to add. If they get their championship game with 11 teams approved, they might just wait out Notre Dame like the Big 10 is. I don't think they would join a conference, but if it doesn't cost you money to wait till 2005, you might as well.

While SU officials poo-poo'ed the idea of joining the ACC in the future, that was doing what they have to do now: publicly endorsing the Big East. Read those comments as "We might be stuck in this lousy conference for a while, so I can't tell the newspapers how lousy it it" If the ACC needs to add a team next year to arrange their championship game, and they come to a concensus that SU is the most attractive candidate, they will call, and SU will, and should, listen.

I hope that the arrogance of the NC schools hurts them in the end. One clear message that has been sent by the ACC is that they are willing to let politicians determine their membership. Enjoy ECU guys. And they will get more support than you can possibly imagine from all the public schools, too, as political wheels are greased.

[Samdari]

Originally posted by MylesKnight
DOLA!!

Also, I still would like to know an answer to this.. What happens with Temple and the Big East?

Has there been any discussion between the two of keeping Temple and giving them an All-Sports Invite now that Miami and Virginia Tech are leaving the Conference?

Remember, Temple is scheduled to leave the Big East Football Conference in 2004, with UConn moving in to take their place. Where Temple was headed at that point, who knows?
If they don't cut the basketball schools loose, Temple will never be a basketball member. Villanova would be way against it, and could get the other Catholic schools to side with them. In all of this, I have heard little mention of keeping Temple in football.

[Buzzbee]

Originally posted by Samdari
I hope that the arrogance of the NC schools hurts them in the end. One clear message that has been sent by the ACC is that they are willing to let politicians determine their membership. Enjoy ECU guys. And they will get more support than you can possibly imagine from all the public schools, too, as political wheels are greased.

While ECU may get heavy political support, I'm not sure it will be enough to ramrod them in. Remember, Duke is a private school, and I believe Wake is as well. The state could probably pressure UNC and NC State, to hold out for ECU, but I'm not sure Duke would welcome a further weakening of the basektball pool. They just MIGHT vote for another school with a more prestigious BB program over ECU.

Just a thought.

[QuikSand]

In political systems, it's almost universal that there are more who are empowered to say "no" than there are to say "yes."

Politicians in Virginia might have been able to halt the offers to expand without Va Tech, by essentially holding out the third "no" vote. It's a tougher thing entirely to see the politicians in North Carolina managing a similar feat but to get the entire conference to say "yes" to ECU or anyone else in particular (without wide agreement).

It's a truism of political systems - and don't be fooled into thinking this is anything more pure than that.

[Wolfpack]

QS is correct.

Also, MK, I've actually done some distance studies with respect to the ACC schools. Bear in mind, this is average distance to the ACC cities based on "as the crow flies":

East Carolina: 274 miles
West Virginia: 363 miles
Pittsburgh: 413 miles
Penn State: 448 miles
Louisville: 438 miles
Notre Dame: 604 miles (by comparison, it's 592 to remaining BE members)
Syracuse: 620 miles
Miami (to other 10 ACC members): 704 miles
Boston College: 737 miles

BC to Maryland is 387. Miami to Tallahassee is 407.

Do note that while it is further for Miami to FSU than BC to Maryland, it is much further for BC to reach the rest of the ACC than Miami.

[Wolfpack]

dola,

To add further emphasis, the nearest current Big East member to Miami in any sport is none other than Virginia Tech at 789 miles. Next nearest is Georgetown at 924 miles. Miami to Maryland (the furtherest ACC member) is 931 miles.

[albionmoonlight]

What if the ACC took Vandy in a non-hostile takeover way? If they got together with Vandy, the SEC, the school that would replace Vandy in the SEC (school X) and School Xs conference and all agreed to make the transition? It might even be able to be done in a way that would eliminate "leaving" penalties--and there would be no danger in the SEC taking Fla. St. or Clemson in retribution because there would be nothing to retributize (hey, if Wolfpack can make up furtherest as a word . . .).

The more I think about it, the more it seems that Vandy belongs in the ACC and Louisville in the SEC. Does the SEC want Vandy? Does Vandy want the SEC?

[Buzzbee]

The only reason the ACC would want Vandy is so that Duke would have someone they might could beat in football.

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by Bee
I can't imagine any reason for Penn State to go to the Big East. It would be great for the Big East, but I don't think it would ever happen.

They begged to get in back in 1981 - the Big East invited Pittsburgh instead.

[Wolfpack]

Just to be nitpicky about it, "furtherest" is a word, albeit a poor usage as this link points out:

http://www.bartleby.com/68/49/2449.html

Feel free to change my "furtherest" to "furthest" if it makes you feel better. ;)

At any rate, no the ACC wouldn't want Vandy. Besides, Duke (for their role in this public relations mess) deserves to be the punching bag of the rest of the league and don't deserve anyone they can beat.

[Samdari]

Originally posted by Buzzbee
While ECU may get heavy political support, I'm not sure it will be enough to ramrod them in. Remember, Duke is a private school, and I believe Wake is as well. The state could probably pressure UNC and NC State, to hold out for ECU, but I'm not sure Duke would welcome a further weakening of the basektball pool. They just MIGHT vote for another school with a more prestigious BB program over ECU.

Just a thought.
Oh, I know that, I am just wondering if some governors might call other governors, and so on, and thus gain the support of all the public universities. I am unsure exactly how many of the schools are private, as the only ones I know are Duke, Miami and Wake. I want to think Georgia Tech is and Clemson isn't, but I am not sure on either count.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally posted by Wolfpack
Just to be nitpicky about it, "furtherest" is a word, albeit a poor usage as this link points out:

http://www.bartleby.com/68/49/2449.html

Feel free to change my "furtherest" to "furthest" if it makes you feel better. ;)

At any rate, no the ACC wouldn't want Vandy. Besides, Duke (for their role in this public relations mess) deserves to be the punching bag of the rest of the league and don't deserve anyone they can beat.


I stand corrected on the grammar and I agree with you about Duke. :)

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by Samdari
Oh, I know that, I am just wondering if some governors might call other governors, and so on, and thus gain the support of all the public universities. I am unsure exactly how many of the schools are private, as the only ones I know are Duke, Miami and Wake. I want to think Georgia Tech is and Clemson isn't, but I am not sure on either count.

GT and Clemson are state universities.

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by albionmoonlight
What if the ACC took Vandy in a non-hostile takeover way? If they got together with Vandy, the SEC, the school that would replace Vandy in the SEC (school X) and School Xs conference and all agreed to make the transition? It might even be able to be done in a way that would eliminate "leaving" penalties--and there would be no danger in the SEC taking Fla. St. or Clemson in retribution because there would be nothing to retributize (hey, if Wolfpack can make up furtherest as a word . . .).

The more I think about it, the more it seems that Vandy belongs in the ACC and Louisville in the SEC. Does the SEC want Vandy? Does Vandy want the SEC?

If the ACC wanted Vandy, the SEC would buy the ticket and drive them to the airport.

[Bee]

The rumor now is Kentucky to the ACC.