OT - Hold 'em poker "basic strategy chart" [Archive]

QuikSand

07-07-2003, 10:28 AM

I've been thinking for a while abotu this - and I don't think it's too far-fetched. In fact, I'm surprised that something like this doesn't seem to exist, as nearly as I can tell.

In a game like blackjack, there are tons of little "strategy guides" that give a general opinion what do to in every situation. Here's one example - though there are tons of them, which do have various minor conflicts in their recommendations:

Blackjack Basic Strategy (http://www.blackjackstrategy.us/blackjack_strategy_card.htm)

(I have heard, and believe, that you should always split eights... but this card disagrees. But that's beside the point.)

Anyway - the main idea is that this sort of format is nice and convenient. It makes the material fairly easy for someone to try to memorize - which gives the gamer a better feel for the game, even if he doesn't necessarily understand why he's doing what he's doing.

So, with all the talk about poker in these parts - I've been thinking: what about something similar for poker? Of course, poker is an infinitely more nuanced game than blackjack, but there are certain elements that might lend themselves to something along this line.

Here's what I'm thinking-- and I'd appreciate some feedback. Maybe the construction of this could be an actual multi-participant project.

-Hold 'em poker
-Pre-flop (your two-card hand only)
-Assume normal casino rules (ring game, fixed limits, using blinds)

Now this, in my mind, starts to resemble the blackjack table. You could have down the left side of a chart the list of possible hands - similar to what you have in the blackjack table linked above.

Across each row, you would have a variety of situations. My current thinking is that you include a set of six:

-Early, middle, and late position
-With a raise before you and without

I realize that the "advice" here sometimes can/should be a bit more nuanced than a simple "raise" or "fold" - but certainly in a lot of these situations, it should be just that simple.

Anyway... it seems to me that something along these lines would be valuable. If a player can come to a low-level hold 'em table with a clear sense of what hands he shoudl play, and what hands he shoudl abandon - he's bound to not only have a better expectation, but probably a better level of confidence generally.

Does this seem like a worthwhile project? (Heck, it might even be worth engaging in some debate about what to put into some of these boxes... could be worthwhile poker talk in and of itself)

Or, does something like this already exist? I've done some looking, but I confess I may have overlooked some magic search words that might have revealed something out there.

Any thoughts or insights would be most welcome.

TredWel

07-07-2003, 10:36 AM

Gary Carson's book <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0818406054/qid=1057592138/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/002-5130517-6772824?v=glance&s=books&n=507846">"The Complete Book of Hold 'Em Poker"</a> gives several charts for playing hands, dependants upon the number of people in the pot, whether there was an early or late position raise. Each chart is broken down by hand and position.

The one thing he doesn't do is determine where you should raise and where you should just call.

cuervo72

07-07-2003, 10:39 AM

Would the table here be a start?

http://www.posev.com/poker/holdem/strategy/preflop-abdul.html

albionmoonlight

07-07-2003, 10:45 AM

In Sklansky's first book he ranks the hands and then (if I recall) says that in early position you should call with (for example) hands in rank 1 or 2 and fold with all others. In middle position you should raise with hands of rank 1-3, call with 4-5 and fold with all others, in late position. . . etc.

Those rankings may help you make the more detailed chart about which you are speaking.

The more I am reading about and playing poker, it seems like one "problem" that your chart will run into is the fact that a lot of low-limit players are bad. In BJ, you know exactaly what the dealer is going to do. He is not a variable, but just part of the equation.

In hold-em, if you are playing with people who all play well, you can generally know how they will react with certain cards. Accordingly, you could build your chart on the assumption that if someone raises in early position, he must have AA or AKs or a similar amazing hand.

However, the more I am reading about what it is really like to play, the more it seems that you will have a player or two at a table who plays so badly that it could throw off the chart assumptions (the most extreme example being a drunk who would raise to the limit on every round without ever looking at his hole cards). Of course, a player with a basic understanding of the game will want a player like this at his table. However, this chart would be for players who may not have that level of understanding.

Also--one's play differs for tight or loose games. However, it is hard to tell someone on a chart if a game is tight or loose.

I guess what I am getting at is that it seems that such a chart would have to have so many exceptions that anyone who could use it properly would probably already have enough experience so that they don't need it.

Still, if people want to give it a shot--I am all for it.

(Note--my discussion of "bad" players at a table comes from what I read. Those of you who actually play tables will know a lot better if my assumptions are correct).

QuikSand

07-07-2003, 10:46 AM

Originally posted by cuervo72
Would the table here be a start?

http://www.posev.com/poker/holdem/strategy/preflop-abdul.html

That's got some good stuff, on first glance. In the first table, I am assuming that they suggest a raise for the hands listed in bold. (Even those very low pairs, if you're in late position)

Assuming you'r without a raise, I think a lot of the table I have in mind can come directly form there - perhaps with some tweaking.

I'm still timid about raising in late position with suited connecors. The "book" (and that table) say that it's smart to do - but I am admittedly gun shy here. When I do raise, it's usually against my gut instinct.

QuikSand

07-07-2003, 10:48 AM

Originally posted by albionmoonlight
The more I am reading about and playing poker, it seems like one "problem" that your chart will run into is the fact that a lot of low-limit players are bad. In BJ, you know exactaly what the dealer is going to do. He is not a variable, but just part of the equation.

Yes, I recognize this. Enough so that I'm inclined to make two charts:

-one for a good table (presumably for decent stakes)

-one for a low-level table, with the common "loose-passive" bad players

Bee

07-07-2003, 10:49 AM

I agree with albionmoonlight about the final product probably not being all that useful, but the discussions the development of something like this would generate would probably be very valuable and allow players like myself (moderate skill, but still learning) to refine their strategies.

RPI-Fan

07-07-2003, 10:55 AM

I also don't buy the logic of raising, ever, with suited connectors. Here's my issue with it - with that type of hand, the board will very rarely hit to give you the best hand. Some of these hits will come on the turn-river, runner-runner straight or flush draws. Many of these straights or flushes won't actually be the nuts.

And at low-limit games, as everyone is well aware, raising pre-flop from late position doesn't isolate the game at all (admittedly, that's not something you're trying to do with suited connectors). But, it means you'll be up against a lot of hands, and possibly some crazy draws.

I just don't see how suited connectors can be profitable in the long-run, particularly if you raise with them.

QuikSand

07-07-2003, 10:56 AM

To target the issue of "relativity" - maybe the eventual chart could include a sentence of two for the fairly close call situations.

For example - late position, with no raises to you. You hold 87s which is by all accounts a playable hand here (assuming there are players in already, you're getting sufficient pot odds to pursue your flush and straight draws).

Maybe the thing to write in this box is not just "call" but some reasoning for that decision - a sentence or two that woudl help the plauer understand what the variables are-- the number of people in already, the sense of whether people would follow a raise, etc. All that is what I try to keep in mind when I am debating my initial play -- havign that in a capsule might be handy, seems to me-- even if the chart doesn't make you an automaton player.

QuikSand

07-07-2003, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by RPI-Fan
I also don't buy the logic of raising, ever, with suited connectors. Here's my issue with it - with that type of hand, the board will very rarely hit to give you the best hand. Some of these hits will come on the turn-river, runner-runner straight or flush draws. Many of these straights or flushes won't actually be the nuts.

And at low-limit games, as everyone is well aware, raising pre-flop from late position doesn't isolate the game at all (admittedly, that's not something you're trying to do with suited connectors). But, it means you'll be up against a lot of hands, and possibly some crazy draws.

I just don't see how suited connectors can be profitable in the long-run, particularly if you raise with them.

That pretty well sums up my thinking, too. I understand conceptually the point of raising against a small table when you have high cards - even fairly weak ones like a K-8 or Q-T. Your idea (doing this in late position) is to chase out most of the table, and either steal the blinds or get into a battle with at most one or two opponents (and fewer come hands). I get that, and follow it (though it takes discipline to do).

Pushing suited connectors just feels wrong to me, it feels counterintuitive. I can play these hands pretty well post-flop, and I just don't feel like I'm on the right side when pushing them early.

Esquared1

07-07-2003, 11:09 AM

I don't remember the author, but in "How to Win in Low Limit Hold'em", the author adjusts for the fact you will be playing more "passive-loose" players. I believe if we are to make a chart for "normal stakes" and "low stakes", the book would help for a chart for the latter.

If I remember, I will edit my post to add the author's name tonight.

QuikSand

07-07-2003, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by Esquared1
I don't remember the author, but in "How to Win in Low Limit Hold'em", the author adjusts for the fact you will be playing more "passive-loose" players. I believe if we are to make a chart for "normal stakes" and "low stakes", the book would help for a chart for the latter.

I think that is by Lee Jones, and is absolutely custom-made for this sort of discussion. While I don't think Jones is the deep thinker that Sklansky and Malmuth are, for instance, this book really crystallizes a lot about this particular game.

Esquared1

07-07-2003, 11:36 AM

Originally posted by QuikSand
I think that is by Lee Jones, and is absolutely custom-made for this sort of discussion. While I don't think Jones is the deep thinker that Sklansky and Malmuth are, for instance, this book really crystallizes a lot about this particular game.

Yes, it was Lee Jones.

Since I am new to the game, this is the only book I have read so far. I thought it would be the best book to keep me on the $3/$6 table at the Horseshoe. As it turned out last time, I lasted 30 minutes. Basically, I would have some good hands, but get nothing on the flop. On the worst hand, I flopped top pair, raised the only remaining player on fourth street. I figured he had two pair at the showdown, but he ended up making the wheel on the river. Worse yet, it was on an inside straight draw. (Stinks.)

I know that the book will help me in the long run, but it was disappointing to play have a bad result after spending so much time reading. :)

Ufer

07-07-2003, 11:59 AM

Anyone playing holdem should have a chart or guide for pre-flop situations and stick to it (non-beginners should vary play to avoid predictability and set up big wins). Patience is the key to winning, and even the best players may lose at any session. Also, don't be afraid to bet/raise aggressively just because you don't have the best hand.

As to playing different tables, remember you are playing individuals not tables and so should alter strategy based on who bet, player position, etc. For example, if very conservative players are on the blinds, you may want to raise a bit more aggressively on the button to push them out -- plus, if they call, you know they have pretty good hands.

As to suited connectors, I do not raise, because you want a multi-way pot without committing too much $$ up front. For example, with 8-7s, you want to see K-J-6-5-4, preferably with no flush possibilities, with lots of players. It is a longshot, so you want it to pay big if it comes in. Get out quick if the flop is not good.

ctmason

07-07-2003, 01:31 PM

Don't forget Krieger's charts. Modified versions of the Sklansky/Malmuth charts. They're pretty good, and I'm not a big believer in charts as a strategy guide.

robbgmaier

07-07-2003, 02:17 PM

there are some charts at ultimatebet.com as well.

i have no opinion as to suited connectors, but someone should ping TredWel, because he seems to be in love with that raise.

QuikSand

07-07-2003, 02:33 PM

Here's the chart Robb mentions above:

UltimateBet Strategy Chart (http://www.ultimatebet.com/games/basic_strategy_chart.html)

It's a more concise framework than I had imagined, but it's basically the same idea. I can see this sort of "crutch" doesn't really substitute for experience and judgment... but for those who are trying to work up this learning curve in this game, this might be handy. Especially if you're playing via computer, and can simply print this out and refer as needed.

QuikSand

07-07-2003, 02:36 PM

Hmmm.. here's a puzzler. The UB chart suggests that in early position, as the first one in, you should raise only with a high pair (AA-TT). In this position, I always raise with strong suited cards-- AK or AQ. UB says you simply call there.

Anyone else have an opinion? Is this a matter of trying to keep people in? (With two high cards, I wouldn't think so... but the flush draw means you have a chance tomake a killing with a big field) What's the thinking here?

Ufer

07-07-2003, 03:00 PM

Except to vary play, I also always raise and often reraise with these hands (though I may play AQs more conservatively early). I think it's better to knock out the longshots and stragglers.

QuikSand

07-07-2003, 03:05 PM

I, too, will reraise with AKs. I had thought perhaps the recommendation to just call these hands on UB was measured by the effect of an early raise - but looking at theit table, it's tough to make that judgment (the advice seems purely based on strength). My sense is that their table, designed for real beginners, is just timid to a fault.

TredWel

07-07-2003, 03:15 PM

Originally posted by robbgmaier
i have no opinion as to suited connectors, but someone should ping TredWel, because he seems to be in love with that raise.

I didn't realize that I raised so much with suited connectors, but it might be the case. I dont think they're especially strong - you still have to hit the right flop to keep playing.

I personally only raise in three instances:

1. When I'm first to act with a good hand. I want to provide as much deterrence to people limping in with garbage as possible.

2. When I'm in late position (not dealer) with a better than usual hand (maybe the suited connectors come in here). I'm trying to buy the button.

3. When I have an excellent hand (AA,KK,QQ) in any position, just to get more money into the pot. I'm an overwhelming favorite to win, and I want to cash in as much as possible.

I can't think of a time when I raised pre-flop for another reason.

MJ4H

07-07-2003, 03:46 PM

im mixed on raising with suited connectors unless they are the AKs variety. middle suited connectors ill limp in with. The thinking seems to be you want a lot of people in the hand with you to keep the drawing odds. But raising might knock some of those out, leaving you with lower odds. In general, you want 2 ways to win. middle suited connectors give only two (straight and flush), while high suited connectors also allow winning with top pair(s). straights and flushes frequently must be drawn out, so youll want a lot of players in with you, while higher suited connectors, if you flop top two pair, you dont want to give others drawing chances. its a mixed bag to me, so i will often raise with AKs, KQs, etc, but rarely (though once in a while) raise with JTs.

Of course, any chart should not be 100%-0%. You dont raise every time with any of these. 90% maybe. 10% maybe.

Ufer

07-07-2003, 04:36 PM

I do think timid, conservative play is not a bad way for beginners to start off. Eventually, you learn you have to bet and risk losing to win money, but not haphazardly. If you only ever raise with AA, KK or AKs (the best drawing hand, imo), the observant players will read you too easily.

albionmoonlight

07-07-2003, 04:43 PM

I think that a chart for beginners could also have some hints for beginners on it. Nothing too long--that makes it less of a chart. But maybe three "hints to start by." Kind of a "if you are in doubt about a particular play, err on the side of these hints."

I'm still only playing on Turbo Texas Hold 'Em, but I find that if I follow the hint--"when in doubt, play tight," I tend to do better. I think that a chart that could really curb the beginners' instinct to play too loose would do a lot of good for a lot of people.

primelord

07-09-2003, 10:16 AM

I am not certain if this will add anything valuable to the discussion or not, but I found this hand interesting so I thought I would post it here. I was playing the other day and I got dealt an AQs in middle position. I limp in along with several other players including a player in early position a few sports in front of me. The flop comes up A 7 Q. I have just flopped two pair and when the board checks to me I bet. Most everyone calls including the guy in early position. The turn card comes up and it is another A. So now I am sitting on Aces full of Queens. There is no flush posibility so unles someone is holding pocket 7's and another 7 comes up I am gold. The board checks to me and I bet again. Everyone folds accept the guy in early position who raises me. That catches me a little off guard considering he had checked both the flop and the turn. I obviously re-raise and he re-raises again capping the bet.

Now the question is what could he possibly be holding that would make him do that? I guess he could be holding Ax and was just trying to slow play the trips Aces, but when I re-raised him I would think he would have to put me on an Ace also so why the re-raise again? I can't put him on a pocket pair of face cards specifically Q's becuase I can't see playing a hand like that so passively. So maybe that Ax is an A7. Which would explain the raises, but why in early position would you play an A7?

The river comes up and its an 8 which assures me the win. This time the guys bets and I raise and we end up capping the betting. I was actually hoping he would check to me so he would be the last one to raise and I could see what he was playing. I turn over my cards and he mucks and I end up with a very solid pot. I guess with the strong betting I would have to put him on an A7. I would think he would have had to have had that or atleast an A. Putting all that money up on pocket Q's with 2 over cards on the table doesn't seem reasonable to me. Although even playing the A7 in the first place doesn't seem reasonable either. Anyway just found the situation interesting and I thought it might add soemthing to this discussion. If anything maybe more proof why a card like this might be useful. :)

mrsimperless

07-09-2003, 11:24 AM

Ok, stupid question here to all ask those of you in the know. I just recently learned the game and have read no books or anything on strategy. What I don't understand is why your position affects what you do? Or is it not the position itsself, just the fact that people in front of you may have raised or folded. And if this is the case, why wouldn't you use some sort of system that says "if x number of raises have occured" rather than "if I am in position 7-8"? Just curious.

Radii

07-09-2003, 11:33 AM

Position is critical in every phase of the game because, in a late position, you get to act after knowing how everyone else is already going to act.

Before the flop one of the reasons this is critical because if you call from early position with a marginal hand, and there is a raise, you've just thrown away your bet b/c you can't play that marginal hand against a hand that raised.

Another reason is that from a late position you fully understand the odds you're getting, you know how many people have called, and if there were any raises, so you can with certainty calculate your pot odds and know if you're making a good call or not.

Also from late position you are in control of whether everyone gets a free card or not. If everyone checks to you and you're the last to act you can decide if you want to bet and try to force out others, or whether you want to take the free card to try to improve your hand. From early position you don't have this power.

In no limit games it's even more critical because you may not want to play marginal hands against someone with a huge stack of chips because they can bully you around. If you act late then you already know if that bully is in the pot or not and can decide based on that.

Ufer

07-09-2003, 11:43 AM

primelord - you're probably right, he had A-7s...and figured you for A-K or A-J. A lot of players will play A-xs early hoping to flush (or not understanding their bad odds against an Ace and an overcard), not realizing that flush will only come out approx. 3-4% of the time. What kind of player was he? Once he was in though, no way could he be timid with the full-house.

mrsimperless - as in any poker game where betting position is fixed (Hold 'em, Omaha, Draw), late position has the great advantage of seeing what everyone else does first, each and every betting round. Also, most poker players do have general rules on whether to stay in based upon how many raises there have been.

sjshaw

07-10-2003, 09:01 PM

Sorry for the double post... I meant to post this here instead of the Poker Sim thread.

Slashdot had a few good articles and links on this general subject:

http://games.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=70593&threshold=1&commentsort=0&tid=126&tid=127&tid=186&mode=thread&cid=6407039

http://games.cs.ualberta.ca/poker/

cthomer5000

12-01-2003, 08:53 AM

Ok, I'm dragging this thread out of the closet. For my own use, I whipped up a strategy chart (based entirely off of Lee Jones book). You can view it here if you want (it's an Excel spreadsheet)

http://s90012292.onlinehome.us/poker/poker_hands.xls

Having this to glance at when playing online and uncertain about hands has really been a nice help, and the advice I've found to be pretty much dead-on.

I haven't re-checked everything to make sure it's 100% correct, so if you happen to stumble upon something you know cannot be right - tell me.

--

Now back to some questions of actual play. Lee Jones recommends raising with an A9 offsuit in the late position (if there are no prior raises). Does anyone else feel uneasy about this? It feels completely unnatural to me, and seems as if that even if you flop top pair, you run a pretty good chance of being out-kicked. You also have no chance at a straight or flush... doesn't feel like a hand strong enough to raise with. He doesn't go into real detail on the hand itself, but definitely lists it (at least twice) as a hand you raise with in late position. Perhaps simulations would/have proved me wrong, but it just seems to run contrary to most other advice given.

--
The last two weeks I've played "for real" at a Casino (Tropicana poker room in A.C.). The first time I played it took about 30 minutes to completely settle in, get the hang of the rhythm of things, and pick up all the nuances of table play that I obviously haven't seen online. All told, I dropped 120 bucks over 3 hours... but didn't feel incredibly bad about my play. I won a couple nice pots, lost "big" showdown (QQ to his KK, with junk on the board), but mostly bled away my money playing marginal hands. (Hence the motivation to make a nice, simple-to-look at reference for starting hands).

This past week I played great. I was short on time (played about 90) minutes, but walked away up 89 dollars. I had consecutive huge hands early in my time there (Ace-high straight on the river), and flopped a set of 10s, which became full of Kings on the river (which really helped me bring in some money). I felt much better about my play the second time around, and completely in control of my level of excitement/nervousness. Can't wait to play again (the week b/w christmans and New Year's at latest).

primelord

12-01-2003, 10:46 AM

Well I haven't read Lee Jones book, but I know it is aimed at specifcally low limit games. I am making an assumption here, but I can't imagine he thinks you should raise every time if there were no other raises if you are in late position. I can see raising that hand if there have only been a few limpers. Your raise will likely let you see the turn for free if the flop misses you, and if you are up against only a couple of other players if you pair your aces you don't have to be as worried about already being beaten.

Against a lot of opponents though I would just dump the A9.

Chubby

12-01-2003, 10:55 AM

the only problem I see is that by having a chart, you are in essence "playing the cards" and not "playing the people".

in blackjack, it's all about the cards. you know what the dealer will do, and the other players have no effect on you. in poker, i think it's the opposite. it doesn't matter what you have, it only matters what others THINK you have. also, it doesn't matter what they have, it only matters what you THINK they have.

if I think someone is weak then that changes my betting strategy, likewise if I think someone is strong or if I can't get a read on someone. it's those reasons that I don't think a chart will work.

personally, I use Phil's ranking of hands (not that I always stick to it) and follow some general guidelines most of the time. but, there will always be situations where the player dictates you go outside the "rules" you have set up for yourself.

an example... say your card says to never fold pocket kings. you bet big preflop and a tight player calls. flop comes Qd-8d-7d. you bet out 50% of the pot, the tight player reraises you. now what? your card says never fold but if the tight player is reraising then he/she must have a monster hand. the card doesn't work now, you need to follow your instincts.

Chubby

12-01-2003, 10:59 AM

dola

cthomer - i agree with primelord. if there is 1-2 limpers i MAY raise tho I would prob still just call. If there's a raise before me I'd fold no problem.

cthomer5000

12-01-2003, 11:11 AM

Originally posted by Chubby
an example... say your card says to never fold pocket kings. you bet big preflop and a tight player calls. flop comes Qd-8d-7d. you bet out 50% of the pot, the tight player reraises you. now what? your card says never fold but if the tight player is reraising then he/she must have a monster hand. the card doesn't work now, you need to follow your instincts.

I'm talking entirely about pre-flop play, so I don't see how your example really fits the idea of my/Lee Jones chart. Clearly, the flop is going to drastically change your hand (for better or worse).

Chubby, this thing is designed as a base set of values on cards. The game and players in it would change how I play... But as a basic guide to understanding what hands are worth playing, I don't think a strategy chart could possibly be considered a bad thing. It's designed to be the starting point, not the destination.

cthomer5000

12-01-2003, 11:12 AM

Originally posted by Chubby
dola

cthomer - i agree with primelord. if there is 1-2 limpers i MAY raise tho I would prob still just call. If there's a raise before me I'd fold no problem.

this was basically why I asked peoples thoughts on the A9o. Jones suggest raising with 5 callers in before you... Just doesn't "feel" right to me, as it seems like a really marginal hand.

Chubby

12-01-2003, 11:13 AM

ahh i see, i thought it was more of a chart for all instances. i guess i use something similar I read in phil's book. he ranks his top 10 hands, then a 2nd level (A-Q and A-x suited), then a 3rd level (suited connectors).

RPI-Fan

12-01-2003, 11:15 AM

What's the thought with hands like AJ and AT from all positions?

I'm guessing you raise with it in early, and limp from middle and late? It's a hand that can dominate only one or two opponents, but will often fall to three or more players.

Also, how about KQs? One hand I played this weekend, I was in early-middle position, called the BB (in a 3-6 game), got raised - several people before me called or cold-called. I folded the hand - what should I do here?

Chubby

12-01-2003, 11:19 AM

well personally, i would call the blinds on A-J and A-10 (assuming unsuited) but if anyone raises try to force myself to fold (it's hard but it's the call i should make). then just play the hand best you can, if an ace drops then you have to guage by betting if you think someone has a higher kicker than you.

A-J and A-10 don't fall into Phil's 3 tiers of hands to play but K-Q suited does. I would prob have done the same as you, call the blind and fold on a raise since you're pretty sure you are beat anyways (tho if i was up $ i would prob call the raise to see the flop but thats just me)

cthomer5000

12-01-2003, 11:21 AM

I would definitely call the raise on the KQ suited, particularly with a few people having already called (as you described).

RPI-Fan

12-01-2003, 11:24 AM

That makes sense ct. As I think, I seem to remember the raise actually getting re-raised before it got back to me, which is why I folded. Still, with three or four players going in at $9, maybe with KQs it's worth it?

Chubby

12-01-2003, 11:28 AM

for $9 (3 bets) i'd prob drop, you're basically playing for a flush or straight since you're prob beat on any pairs you hit.

Daimyo

12-01-2003, 01:55 PM

When i first started playing (not too long ago after finding all the threads here), I started to build a master chart mainly based on Hold'em for Advanced Players by Sklansky and Malmuth(sp?). I pretty quickly found out that 1) by chart was growing way too large and unwieldy (only including pre-flop strategy) and 2) it wouldn't adjust well to reading other players without making it considerably more unwieldy

What I'm working on off-and-on right now is a sort of "hold'em trainer" computer program. I'm still very early in the process and I'm not sure I'll ever release it publically, but here is what I how I envision it:

1. For each opponent have a way to configure as much information as you could gather about their play style. At a minium, for each position (early, mid, late, blind) and number of bets, you'd be able to set the minimum hand (based on S&M groupings) they'd be likely to bet pre-flop. Of course by default each player would come pre-configured as a "typical player". Ideally there would be templates you could assign such as loose v tight and passive v aggressive so you quickly could improve the accuracy without "micromanagement". Also ideally allow you to manually "put someone on a hand(s)" to fine tune even further.

2. Given the above information, position of the dealer, actions of players and your 2 cards do some statistical analysis (most likely by brute force playing out 1000's of hands based on the template assigned for each player) for basic things like your odds to win the pot and odds if put one-on-one against each player.

3. The results would be fined tuned even further with every bit of information added. So once the flop comes everything would be re-calculated based on that new info. (sort of like how ESPN shows odds for each player at every stage, except with less perfect information)

I'm not sure if this will turn out useful, but at the very least its forcing me to learn a ton about strategy and I'm enjoying the work very much thus far. In the end it won't give a simple "bet" or "fold" reccomendation, but at least present the odds as best as it can estimate to help in making the decision. I imagine professional players do this sort of thing in their heads (or at least experience/memorization makes it automatic), but as beginner I think having something like this will help me internalize it and at the same time allow me to focus more on reading players and other general strategy that I find myself just being too overwelmed to really do right now.

cthomer5000

12-01-2003, 02:04 PM

I did find it pretty awkward to organize (even for just pre-flop play). I then basically broke it down to my thought process:

1. What am I holding? (pair, suited connecters, one-gap)
2. Where am I sitting?
3. What has happened in front of me (# of calls, raise?)

things that get left out:
what's likely to happen behind me
information about the players I'm facing.

Still, I'm left with 7 or 8 excel worksheets to click to just to get info about any given hand. But as long as it helps me tune my pre-flop play, I'm happy with it.

cthomer5000

01-26-2004, 11:05 PM

thought I'd again bump this thread for the poker players in the house.

I've got a couple things of interest (or so i think).

expected value statistics These stats are pulled from real games at poker room. You can see the expected value of any hand, from any position, at whatever limit, against how ever many players. Could be of interest to those wondering about whether they should or shouldn't be playing those borderline hands. This is really a nice reference to have
http://www.pokerroom.com/games/evstats/pairStats.php

Lou Kreiger start chart:
Much, much more basic than the one i posted above. Clearly you get a lot less about what to do in specific situations, but as far as at least having basic guidelines, it could be fairly helpful to a beginner.
http://lovetohate.us/poker/kreiger_chart.xls