Shannon Stewart traded to the Twins

[bbor]

For Bobby Kealty.

Any Twins fans be able to give me the 411 on Kealty?

Stewart is a FA at the end of the season making 5 mil a year right now....he will prolly be a 7-8 mil player next season so the Jays would'nt be able to afford him.Good hitter but a very weak outfield arm.

Reed Johnsons emergence made Stewart expendable before they expected him to be.Class guy over all...sad to see him go.

[mckerney]

Keilty is a good hitter and decent right fielder, but the deepth at RF for the Twins (Dusty Mohr, Mike Cuddyer, Restovich) made him expendable.

[bigdawg2003]

Why are the Twins trading for another OF. Don't they need help elsewhere.

[korme]

Stewart, Jones, Hunter.. is that the projected OF now or is Jones going to ride pine?

[mckerney]

Right now they need help everywhere. See: Last 20 games

I think they're trying to bring someone in who will do something for the team. Plus I believe that Jaque Jones is currently injured.

[ISiddiqui]

Kealty is supposed to be a good young OF. As stated before though, the Twins had a glut of them at his position. Decent trade for the Jays, seeing as they had to get rid of Stewart's salary.

[mckerney]

July 6, 2003 Placed outfielder Jacque Jones on the 15-day disabled list, retroactive to July 1, with a strained left groin; activated infielder Chris Gomez from the 15-day disabled list.

[Ksyrup]

As Rob Neyer pointed out last week, the Twins' problem is their middle infielders, neither of whom can hit and aren't defensive wizards, either. This was stupid move, but a great one for Toronto, IMO.

[QuikSand]

Kielty seems to have a pretty good ability to get on base (fitting with the Ricciardi philosophy), but has yet to demonstrate a lot of command with his hitting. He supposedly shoudl continue to develop nice line-drive power, and projects to be something like a 10-15 HR guy, hitting maybe .280 avg and .350+ OBP.

Perhaps not a true saliva-worthy prospect (and he's 27 or 28, too), especialy as it's the titanic hitters who get everyone all worked up, but he looks like a similar sort of acquisition as Toronto's pursuit of Frank Catalanotto... and that has worked out pretty well.

[mckerney]

Originally posted by ISiddiqui
Kealty is supposed to be a good young OF. As stated before though, the Twins had a glut of them at his position. Decent trade for the Jays, seeing as they had to get rid of Stewart's salary.

Agreed. Keilty is one of those guys you'd like to see stay with the team, but realisticly they just have too many young outfielders.

[bbor]

Is Kealty the best of the outfield glut...or just one of the mix.

Minny is getting a player to be named later...could be Orlando Hudson?

Although that may be a bit steep in the Jays mind..but he is a middle infielder...the Jays seem to have a lot of those Middle infield guys in the minors.

[ISiddiqui]

Well, bbor, Kealty wouldn't have beaten out Cuddyer, who is supposed to be a stud. But as QS said, good player in the Catalanotto mold of high OBP.

[bbor]

thx for the info gents

[Maple Leafs]

Sad to see Stewart go, although the deal makes sense. Anyone else remember the documentary about the three prospects with the Dunedin Blue Jays about ten years ago? Stewart was one of the three guys.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by bbor
Is Kealty the best of the outfield glut...or just one of the mix.

Minny is getting a player to be named later...could be Orlando Hudson?


No.

Most assuredly no.

[Swaggs]

If the Jays are giving up a player to be named later, I do not like the deal for them.

If they are trying to emulate the Beane model, why not hold on to Stewart and get the two high draft picks that will come with his becoming a free agent?

[ISiddiqui]

The play to be named might be no one special, Swaggs. I don't think it makes the deal any worse, really.

[Cards4ever]

Most assuredly the Twins were hoping to get Castillo, but Florida is standing pat at the moment and the price might be too high, at least for the Twins. Stewart helps in that he can steal bases and probably will bat leadoff.

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by Cards4ever
Most assuredly the Twins were hoping to get Castillo, but Florida is standing pat at the moment and the price might be too high, at least for the Twins. Stewart helps in that he can steal bases and probably will bat leadoff.

While that might be so, the real key is who he replaces. He's not replacing the chumps in the middle infield, so this deal has far less impact than a Castillo deal would. They've upgraded their OF slightly, rather than upgraded their IF immensely.

[bbor]

Originally posted by Maple Leafs
Sad to see Stewart go, although the deal makes sense. Anyone else remember the documentary about the three prospects with the Dunedin Blue Jays about ten years ago? Stewart was one of the three guys.

They replayed that a few months ago...i just caught the end of it....do you remember the name of the other 2 guys?

[Cards4ever]

Originally posted by Ksyrup
While that might be so, the real key is who he replaces. He's not replacing the chumps in the middle infield, so this deal has far less impact than a Castillo deal would. They've upgraded their OF slightly, rather than upgraded their IF immensely.

I didn't say that it was Broglio for Brock did I? I pretty much said what you did.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally posted by bbor
They replayed that a few months ago...i just caught the end of it....do you remember the name of the other 2 guys? No... I don't think either one ever made it very far in pro baseball.

[mckerney]

Originally posted by ISiddiqui
Well, bbor, Kealty wouldn't have beaten out Cuddyer, who is supposed to be a stud. But as QS said, good player in the Catalanotto mold of high OBP.

Actually, I'd heard Cuddyer could end up playing second next year. Not sure where I read that, but it could be something to keep in mind.

[samifan24]

I interviewed Kielty while in AA and he was a real nice guy and a heck of a hitter. I've followed him up the Twins ladder and I'm glad to see this happen for him. I think it could be his big break.

[Cards4ever]

He's 27, he better get moving.

[Cards4ever]

Dola-Jays are picking up all of Stewarts salary.

[bbor]

All of Stewarts contract?/

I find that hard to believe.

A portion prolly...but all????

[daedalus]

Nice pickup by the Jays. As has been mentioned, Kielty isn't going to set the world on fire but a nice complementary player. Plus, it didn't seem like the Jays had any intention of keeping Stewart in any case. As for his age, I don't think it's a big deal. Beane frequently nabs 'older' non-prospects (as in 25-28 year olds) for temporary use (Saenz, Berroa). Kevin Millar and Brian Daubach were considered older non-prospects who've had decent success in the majors. Having to pickup Stewart's tab *and* giving up another player to be named is kind of harsh, though.

[Ryche]

Unless the Twins get a halfway decent player to be named later, this seems good for the Jays. I'm sure the Twins see Stewart as a leadoff hitter, but Kielty has a better OBP and more steals. Realistically, I think they are pretty equivalent players at this point.

If the Twins don't turn it on in the next week, I'm hoping they will trade for some prospects. Guardado, Reed and Rogers won't be back next year, might as well get something for them if possible.

[Cards4ever]

Originally posted by bbor
All of Stewarts contract?/

I find that hard to believe.

A portion prolly...but all????

His agent has confirmed it here in Minneapolis, ALL of his contract.

[ISiddiqui]

Yikes! Then the trade suddenly looks a lot worse for the Jays.

[bbor]

Hmm.....well..i guess they are figuring that Kealty is making only 600 000 and change...and is sighned for 2 more years.....

[WillyWTE]

Yeah, I agree is does turn out to be a lot worse if they do pick it all up.
The last I heard was that Toronto would pick of about half of his contract for this year.

My logic behind the trade, outside of the fact that Stewart will be a FA and will want a lot more next year is that with the money they saved they can pursue some much needed bullpen help. Reports up here and with captain JP's ways, Toronto could be rather busy the next few weeks. They have Boston for 4 and the Yanks for 2 after the break and IMO that will decide they rest of the year and the deals that might be made.


Willy

[Travis]

This is a bad move for the Jays. Yeah, they'd lose Stewart after this season for nothing probably, but they don't need OF help.

Had we traded Shannon for a real closer then I'd be happy, but Shannon, a player to be named later, and covering any of Shannon's salary for a guy who will be a pinch hitter and backup outfielder for us at most is a bad trade when we're in a tail spin right now.

Don't get me wrong, Kielty is a good player. Blade and I saw a lot of him before he got called up (their farm team used to play here). Cuddyer was a 3B before being moved to the OF, so him sliding to 2B isn't a big stretch to the imagination either.

Back to the trade though, just doesn't make much sense when Phelps will probably step back into the DH role, with Wells, Johnson and Catalanotto roaming the OF. We really needed help in the pen.

[Ksyrup]

This is still a good trade for the Jays. They got a guy with about the same numbers as Stewart, but who they will have for the next couple of years AND with a far smaller price tag. That's worth paying the Twins to take Stewart this year, and it also allowed them to get back a quality player in return. Otherwise, they would have gotten the backup RF in Single A.

[Blade]

Personally, I think this is a good trade for the Jays. I thought they should have traded Stewart and his average arm out a long time ago. He is a great hitter, but he will not step into a DH role, so I have had enough of him. I like Kielty a lot, though I don't like the fact that the Jays OF seems to still be pretty crowded with 4 guys who could play everyday.

But, I agree with Travis, they need a lot of help in the pen, and a lot more games are going to be lost until they fix that situation.

[bbor]

I think this may signal the beggining fo the end for the Jays.....watch for Escobar and Lidle to be dealt in the very near future.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by bbor
I think this may signal the beggining fo the end for the Jays.....watch for Escobar and Lidle to be dealt in the very near future.

Last I heard, they were definitlely shopping Lidle, but are seeking to work out an extension with Escobar. But I agree - they're hitting the button.

[daedalus]

I don't know that it's so much a White Flag move (a la the ChiSox). Johnson has shown he can play with the big kids adequately and the Jays have never shown any interest in retaining Stewart (heck, he's been on the block for the last 3 years). Now they have Kielty in the outfield mix and Phelps when he comes back. I also don't think that Lidle is such a big loss.

[sterlingice]

Originally posted by bbor
Minny is getting a player to be named later...could be Orlando Hudson?

Not. a. chance. in. hell. Sorry, Twins fans.

PTBNL trades almost always involve a list of a couple of guys, typically B or C grade prospects. Not only that but these are typically low-level A or Rookie ball prospects and the concept behind "player to be named later" is that the team getting them gets an extra couple of months to evaluate which of the players they want more.

The other possibility involves what others are talking about: the Jays aren't done dealing. Let's say they have the following things in mind: a SS and a CF and they have one of each on their PTBNL list from Minnesota. Let's say they trade Lidle to a team, let's say Anaheim, with a spare C and SS in their system positions, they'll pick the SS from Anaheim and then take the CF from Minnesota. This is likely what happened here: they aren't done dealing and want to see what kind of really good prospects they can get in other trades before taking a B or C grade guy from Minnesota.

If Hudson were dealt, he wouldn't be part of the "to be named later"- his name would be in the trade.

SI

[oykib]

Originally posted by Swaggs
If the Jays are giving up a player to be named later, I do not like the deal for them.

If they are trying to emulate the Beane model, why not hold on to Stewart and get the two high draft picks that will come with his becoming a free agent?

To get the draft picks, you have to offer Stewart arbitration at the end of his contract. Stewart would likely get more in arbitration (around eight million) than he would on the open market (five or six million). I can't see either the Twins or the Jays doing that.

If either team offers arbitration they are going to wind up with a Greg Maddux or Bret Boone situation. Stewart will spend half the winter entertaining offers and then take arbitration when the offers are not equal to it. He will get at least eight in arbitration. All he has to do is provide comps that make that. His numbers over the last three years are significantly better than, say, Raul Mondesi's. Mondesi is an eight million dollar ballplayer. He can just go aroungd the leagues and get a bunch of 6-10 million dollar ballplayers that he's better than or equal to: Rondell White, Brian Jordan, Hideki Matsui, Mike Cameron, Ken Griffey, Tim Salmon, Carl Everett, Juan Gonzalez, Johnny Damon, Darrin Erstad, Roger Cedeno.

The problem with arbitration is that every bad contract in the league leads to another bad contract. The ones that are in bold are very similar comps in age while having a salary in the 6-10 million range and having noticeably lesser production that Stewart. If I can make this case with no numbers in front of me, then imagine what his agent will do. The days of the free prospects are over. That's the real genius of Ricciardi's move.

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by bbor


Minny is getting a player to be named later...could be Orlando Hudson?


No way in hell anyway, but a PTBNL must be a player not playing in the American League at the time of the trade.

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by samifan24
I interviewed Kielty while in AA and he was a real nice guy and a heck of a hitter. I've followed him up the Twins ladder and I'm glad to see this happen for him. I think it could be his big break.

Maybe, maybe not. I liked Bobby in NB as well, but New Haven has the more solid prospects on one team then I have ever seen. Gross, Rios, John-Ford Griffin. Throw in the fact they had Jason Arnold early in the year and Quiroz came from out of nowhere.

One good thing about Connecticut - 3 Eastern League teams within a half hour.

[Swaggs]

Well, the fact that so many people think it was a lopsided deal for one side or the other probably means it was, at least, a fair deal. :)

[chrisj]

Originally posted by Maple Leafs
No... I don't think either one ever made it very far in pro baseball.

Wasn't one of them Alex Gonzalez? (If I'm thinking about the same one...)

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by Swaggs
Well, the fact that so many people think it was a lopsided deal for one side or the other probably means it was, at least, a fair deal. :)

I just see it from Toronto's side. For Minnesota it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. They made a move, but didn't really improve themselves and traded a player who might have more value then they got in return.

[IMetTrentGreen]

its all about sabermterics baby. kielty walks almost once per 6 at bats, plus has 4 years before he is a free agent. his .370 obp is much higher than stewarts .340+

kielty, in the billy beane/sandy alderson/bill james game, is a better player than stewart

good move for the jays

[ISiddiqui]

Yeah, but you wonder if they could have gotten better. After all they have to play Stewart's salary AND send someone else over. Is Kielty worth THAT much?

[IMetTrentGreen]

yes. i think you are over-estimating stewarts ability a little, not to mention the arbitration headache he's going to cause

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by ISiddiqui
Yeah, but you wonder if they could have gotten better. After all they have to play Stewart's salary AND send someone else over. Is Kielty worth THAT much?

It's hard to say until we see the player that they have to send.

[ISiddiqui]

I don't think I'm overestimating Stewart's ability. I think he's equal to Kielty, so I don't see why Toronto is paying someone else to play him as well as paying Kiety's salary (which probably isn't that much anyway), and then giving up someone else. It just seems a bit too much.

If Toronto didn't have to pay for Stewart at all, it would have been a great move. Now, it's just a 'eh' move.

[chrisj]

But Stewart will be a free agent next year... the Jays (should) have 3 or 4 more years of Kielty.

[bbor]

I'm pretty sure the deal would not have been done unless the Jays agreed to pay part or all of the salary.

Also..JP has apparently had a hard on for Keilty for awhile now.They had tried to pry him away from the Twinkies before the season started.

If the Jays are waving the flag this is the logical first step towards it.My only question is...why not get an arm?The Jays are loaded in the outfield now....with 5 or 6 guys that could be in the majors in the next 2 years.

[Cards4ever]

Originally posted by IMetTrentGreen
its all about sabermterics baby. kielty walks almost once per 6 at bats, plus has 4 years before he is a free agent. his .370 obp is much higher than stewarts .340+

kielty, in the billy beane/sandy alderson/bill james game, is a better player than stewart

good move for the jays

Actually, OPS is a even more proving statistic and Kielty is at .790 and Stewart is at .796.

The trade also allows the Twins to move Jones out of the leadoff spot into a RBI spot in the lineup.

[Alan T]

Originally posted by Cards4ever
Actually, OPS is a even more proving statistic and Kielty is at .790 and Stewart is at .796.

The trade also allows the Twins to move Jones out of the leadoff spot into a RBI spot in the lineup.

Some would disagree that OPS weights slugging percentage too highly and OBP too low. If I remember right, the Blue Jays are along those lines of thinking who would weight OBP 2 or 3 times more than SLG when then adding it to a modified OPS that is more like: (OBP*3)+SLG = Modified OPS score

In that weighting, Kielty by far comes out scoring as more valuable. So this deal does not suprise me from the Blue Jays perspective.

Likewise If I recall correctly, the Twins do not follow that same theology, and thus would prefer to have Stewart in the deal.

[Swaggs]

Originally posted by Alan T
Some would disagree that OPS weights slugging percentage too highly and OBP too low. If I remember right, the Blue Jays are along those lines of thinking who would weight OBP 2 or 3 times more than SLG when then adding it to a modified OPS that is more like: (OBP*3)+SLG = Modified OPS score

In that weighting, Kielty by far comes out scoring as more valuable. So this deal does not suprise me from the Blue Jays perspective.

Likewise If I recall correctly, the Twins do not follow that same theology, and thus would prefer to have Stewart in the deal.

Good point. I had suspected that this was the case and recently saw it explained in a way that made sense. Basically, if you have a 1.000 OBP, you would bat infinitely because you could not make an out and would therefore score infinite runs, but if you have a 1.000 SLG, you would, at some point make outs (although now that I think about, I guess a team that hit infinite singles would not make an out).

[IMetTrentGreen]

ops is NOT a more proving stat. it doesn't reflect that obp is 3 times as important as slg%. ah, i see lan t said that already

but ops is just another reason kielty is better. cheer up bbor, you actually got a better player, for longer

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by Alan T
Some would disagree that OPS weights slugging percentage too highly and OBP too low. If I remember right, the Blue Jays are along those lines of thinking who would weight OBP 2 or 3 times more than SLG when then adding it to a modified OPS that is more like: (OBP*3)+SLG = Modified OPS score

In that weighting, Kielty by far comes out scoring as more valuable. So this deal does not suprise me from the Blue Jays perspective.

Likewise If I recall correctly, the Twins do not follow that same theology, and thus would prefer to have Stewart in the deal.

Well it's Depodesta who uses a factor of 3 for OBP with the A's. Runs scored correlates best with a factor of 1.7*OBP + SLG.

The advantage for Kielty over Stewart is the fact that he is younger, and is not expensive over the next few years.

I wouldn't imagine that the PTBNL is the anything worthwhile, but it's hard to really judge what happened without seeing who that player is.

Here is my problem with the Twins. They have so many players that do the same thing and now they have held onto them for so long that it has stunted their development. They have shortened their major league careers and they are nearing a point where they have thrown away the 2003 season, because they haven't moved some of these players for things that they can use, a heck of a lot more then ANOTHER outfielder.

I hate the fact that a guy like Mike Cuddyer (yes I know he's hurt and out for the season now), has been buried by the organization when he should be in the lineup every single day.

Not to mention they do some pretty stupid things like let David Ortiz just walk away. They did a tremendous job accumulating talent, there are guys like Lew Ford and Todd Sears who noone really talks about who should also be getting a chance in the major leagues. However knowing Minnesota they will let them rot in Rochester.

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by ISiddiqui
I don't think I'm overestimating Stewart's ability. I think he's equal to Kielty, so I don't see why Toronto is paying someone else to play him as well as paying Kiety's salary (which probably isn't that much anyway), and then giving up someone else. It just seems a bit too much.

If Toronto didn't have to pay for Stewart at all, it would have been a great move. Now, it's just a 'eh' move.

You're only looking at this from a Year 1 vantage point. After this year, they were looking at either resigning Stewart for a boatload of money, or losing him with no equal value back. Now, they get a cheap player who is a reasonable facsimile of Stewart, for the next couple of years. That's why they were willing to pay his salary this year. If they insisted that Minnesota pay all or a portion of his salary, they wouldn't have gotten anyone near as good as Kielty.

[ISiddiqui]

Well that's only if you believe the Jays couldn't have gotten anyone better for Stewart (while paying all his salary) and a player to be named, which I think they could have.

[Alan T]

Originally posted by ISiddiqui
Well that's only if you believe the Jays couldn't have gotten anyone better for Stewart, which I think they could have.

I am not so sure of this. They had been trying to trade Stewart for several seasons.. I have to believe that other teams just were not offering what they wanted for Stewart.... THey easily are getting more here for Stewart than they did in their trade of Raul Mondesi last year for instance.

[ISiddiqui]

Well that's true... but I think that just means the Jays aren't trying hard enough ;).

I'd like to see what other teams were offering for Stewart. I know plenty showed interest in him.

[Ksyrup]

It might have been as simple as getting a guy who is ready to play in the majors now, but with a reasonable salary, vs. getting prospects a couple of years away, even if they had a lot of potential. Maybe it was worth taking a little less of a player now, rather than getting someone with more potential but who couldn't help the team until 2005.

[ISiddiqui]

Well, if some posters are correct and Lidle and Escobar are going to be traded soon, getting someone that is ready to play now would be strange, since they don't think they'll compete now.

[Cards4ever]

I think it's pretty even trade when you hash it all out, if the Twins win the division and Stewart is a factor, then I think that validates the trade right there.

[bbor]

Originally posted by ISiddiqui
Well, if some posters are correct and Lidle and Escobar are going to be traded soon, getting someone that is ready to play now would be strange, since they don't think they'll compete now.

JP has said all along that they are aiming for 04...or rather more likely 05 with this team,anything success they had before those years was gonna be gravy.This seems like him just staying the course and heading in that direction.

Getting prospects at this point for Stewart would be too late for the 05 season...usually these prospect take 4-5 years to develop.

That being said...since the trade there has been a huge outpouring of love for Stewart...Radio talk shows have been flooded with calls about how he was a stand up guy who never met a fan he did'nt like.

Minny is getting a quality guy who hopefully down the road may find his way back to Toronto.

[daedalus]

Originally posted by ISiddiqui
I'd like to see what other teams were offering for Stewart. I know plenty showed interest in him.That was my initial reaction as well. But a possibility is that Ricciardi did not wanted to be stuck with a player he did not intend to keep (or be stuck with an expensive arbitration case, a la Maddux) and just decided to get out while he can get a quality player. There are quite a number of teams looking for a bat for sure, but there are also quite a number of sellers. If he gets out now, he can get the player he wants rather than the best of what is left. (Flip side is, of course, a team might have gotten desperate enough that he got more than value.)

One example of this might have been the Mets. If some of Gammons' information (as oppose to his opinions) is to be believed, the Mets supposedly turned down the trade that the Rangers got for Urbina because they insisted on Stokes (the 2nd round pick the same year the Marlins drafted Gonzalez, led the minors in slugging last year) when the Marlins went to the Rangers for Urbina instead. If that is true, then what they got instead seems to pale. I know nothing about the kids that the Mets got but one is a 22 year old in A-ball and another is a 24 year old in A-ball and neither is a starter (they have mix starting and relieving appearances). That just doesn't sound promising.

[sterlingice]

Originally posted by daedalus
One example of this might have been the Mets. If some of Gammons' information (as oppose to his opinions) is to be believed, the Mets supposedly turned down the trade that the Rangers got for Urbina because they insisted on Stokes (the 2nd round pick the same year the Marlins drafted Gonzalez, led the minors in slugging last year) when the Marlins went to the Rangers for Urbina instead. If that is true, then what they got instead seems to pale. I know nothing about the kids that the Mets got but one is a 22 year old in A-ball and another is a 24 year old in A-ball and neither is a starter (they have mix starting and relieving appearances). That just doesn't sound promising.

I used to think he was a baseball genius but it seems like Gammon's information is getting less and less credible by the year. By the wording here, it seems as if you believe the same way.

SI

[Alan T]

I think with Gammons you have to just be careful to read through some of what he says. You have to realize that he is greatly east coast biased in both his interest and his opinions...

Even with that though, he generally has a better outlet at receiving some of this information than alot of journalist. He does at a national scale what many do at local scales in uncovering hidden information. THe main problem is you have to read through his slant to discern what the truth is.

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by Alan T
I think with Gammons you have to just be careful to read through some of what he says. You have to realize that he is greatly east coast biased in both his interest and his opinions...

Even with that though, he generally has a better outlet at receiving some of this information than alot of journalist. He does at a national scale what many do at local scales in uncovering hidden information. THe main problem is you have to read through his slant to discern what the truth is.

You have to remember it's not always his slant. Plenty of GMs plant things with him to drive up a market on their player or to get an idea what the reaction for things would be.

[Travis]

The part that pisses me off is that the Jays are sending out a 'waving the flag' vibe with this. We're still easily in contention for the wild card and even the division if we can put together a good run. We need help in the pen if we're going to do that, and he doesn't have to sacrifice the future for that, hell, we're going to need that help in '04 or '05 anyways, so pick up somebody who can be a closer, Politte isn't that man.

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by Travis
The part that pisses me off is that the Jays are sending out a 'waving the flag' vibe with this. We're still easily in contention for the wild card and even the division if we can put together a good run. We need help in the pen if we're going to do that, and he doesn't have to sacrifice the future for that, hell, we're going to need that help in '04 or '05 anyways, so pick up somebody who can be a closer, Politte isn't that man.

No offense, I like the Blue Jays and JP a lot, but that division is just about out of reach. They are only 2 games closer to the wildcard and there are 2 more teams involved. The Jays would probably need to go something like 46-21 to go to the playoffs, and that's not happening with that rotation.