Aaron Boone called me an idiot. [Archive] - Front Office Football Central

Balldog

07-20-2003, 08:09 AM

Not directly of course. His pops Bob Boone is on the hot seat in Cincinnati and yesterday he was booed loudly by myself and about 15,000 other people when he came out to take Ryan Wagner (ML Debut, 1st Rd Pick this year) out of the game after retiring all 5 batters he faced. When asked how that made him feel Aaron said "We had a bunch of idiots at the game."

I guess to me the decision made no sense, he pitches 1 2/3 an inning throwing maybe 15 pitches because of his outstanding control and Boone takes him out when Berkman comes up a guy who was 2-3 2 HR and 5 RBI at that point. So he brings in Felix Heredia who walks him. Boone used 20 players for the 4th time this season.

I was sporting my "Fire Bob Boone" t-shirt from firebobboone.com

It was funny because a bunch of people were asking me were they can get one.

Can someone tell me why Jimmy Haynes got the loss? He went 1 1/3 allowing 6 runs (pathetic), but the Reds lost 9-8 shouldn't the Brian Reith who let up the other 3 runs get the loss? Even though Mercker walked two guys with the bases loaded for 2 of the 3 runs Reith was charged for.

Easy Mac

07-20-2003, 08:21 AM

The loos only changes if they regain the lead (or tie).

Suicane

07-20-2003, 08:40 AM

I find it interesting you have such a grasp of who should pitch and who should not pitch and what chages Bob Boone makes during a game, yet you have no grasp of a simple rule of the game.
I don't mean to be rude but you should really famalarize yourself with the basics before you start ragging on people like that, you don't come off looking very good.

I don't see the Reds often enough to make a real comment on how good of a manager Bob Boone is, but with that pitching staff, to be within 5 miles of first place you should count your lucky stars.

Ksyrup

07-20-2003, 08:48 AM

I think the idea with a young pitcher like that is to build his confidence. If he had that great a debut, then there's no reason to ruin it by letting him face a guy like Berkman. That will come later.

If he was starting, of course, he would have had to face everyone at least 2-3 times. But since he was relieving, I don't find it too objectionable for him to have been removed at that point. I've seen managers remove seasoned relievers after only one batter faced, just to get a lefty-lefty matchup. So removing a kid in a close game after going 1.2 IP doesn't strike me as an outrageously stupid move.

I'm sure there are plenty of other reasons to boo the guy, though. Justified or not, I'm pretty sure I'd stick up for my dad, as well. Whaddaya expect, the guy's his son.

Balldog

07-20-2003, 09:46 AM

The game was actually 9-1 at that point.

Suicane, I guess I have no grasp of the game since the HS team I coached the last two years went 34-10. I think if you look at the baseball strategy thread you'll find I do know a little something.

I guess to me that rule doesn't make any sense but then again Haynes was horrible yesterday and did deserve the loss.

Bearcat729

07-20-2003, 09:53 AM

I want to know why people think getting rid of Bob Boone will change anything with this team.

Ok so maybe we fire Boone and lose 98 games instead of 100, but unless we get some people in who will spend a little money to get REAL pitching this team will never be any good.

Not that it matters though as Bob Boone will be fired soon and Jim Bowden will be forced to deal another solid player for prospects like Felipe Lopez

Balldog

07-20-2003, 10:54 AM

I agree getting rid of Boone probably won't change anything because they will not get any proven manager to come aboard because they won't pay any money.

Here are some things I find interesting:

BOWDEN: "(Trading for Jimenez) doesn't affect Olmedo. He's our second baseman," general manager Jim Bowden said. "We're just adding to our bench. That's all."

Bob Boone: "We'll give (Jimenez) some starts, use him off the bench. No one is set at second base."

Ray Olmedo is now in AA.

GUILLEN: "I just want to play," Guillen said. "As long as they tell me the truth, I'm fine. Boone is the manager. Some strange stuff is going on in this clubhouse. But Boone is the boss."

Resting players the day after an explosive performance:
LOCAL NEWSPAPER: But not as strange as some of the moves current Cincinnati skipper Bob Boone has made recently.

Item: Last Saturday against the Marlins, the Reds had 10 hits. Sean Casey had three of them and Ken Griffey Jr. had four, including two homers. The next day, both were on the bench and the Reds lost.

Item: On Monday, Adam Dunn was out of the lineup. But he came off the bench in the 11th to hit a grand slam that beat the Braves. Tuesday, he was benched again. In the ninth inning, the score was tied. But when Boone went for a pinch-hitter, he sent Reggie Taylor to the plate instead. Taylor grounded out and Cincinnati lost in the 10th. After the game, Boone said he had a reason for not using Dunn but refused to say what it was.

The perfectly precise example of micro-management: in the middle of an inning swapping the positions of Juan Castro and Bill Selby on a batter by batter basis during a game in 2001 because Bob Boone wanted his best glove fielding the ball.

Routinely resting multiple starters in the same game.

Using way too many pitchers in lopsided wins or losses.

EagleFan

07-20-2003, 11:10 AM

You coach a high school team but have no grasp on what pitcher gets the loss in a game, one of the most basic rules of the game.

Please learn the rules of the game before you pick apart a major league manager.

You want a young pitcher to build confidence in the major leagues. His short, but very good outing will help do just that. Perhaps you would rather him do a Jim Fergosi and leave him in until he gets crushed and potentially blow his confidence (ala Tyler Green before the arm injury finished him the rest of the way).

If you don't think that confidence is an issue than I ask you to take a look at Pat Burrell at the plate now and see what happens when it appears that confidence is lost.

Rich1033

07-20-2003, 11:12 AM

Ok, I saw the game on TV. Wagner came in and pitched well, retiring all 5 batters he faced. However he was obviously very nervous. Wagner went to his mouth between pitches and the Astros bench began to bitch to the umpires about it. A Reds coach had to come out and remind him to be careful. Then Biggio came up and hit a weak grounder that the first baseman fielded, but someone had to yell at Wagner to tell him to go over and cover first base.

There is no doubt in my mind that taking him out before Berkman came up was the best decision. First of all it gives Wagner confidence since he did not give up a hit in his debut. Most importantly it played perfectly into the stats. They brought in a lefty to turn Berkman around and make him bat right handed, where he is a much less dangerous hitter.

Reds fans bitch that they took him out of the game, but how much more would you be bitching if Berkman took him deep and ruined his debut?

Balldog

07-20-2003, 11:29 AM

He brought a lefty in to pitch to Berkman when the score was 9-1. Using 7 pitchers in a game that is already decided makes no sense. Especially when Reidling (a spot starter) pitched 2 2/3 innings with allowing a hit, he hadn't pitched for 6 days.

Ksyrup

07-20-2003, 11:41 AM

Originally posted by Balldog
He brought a lefty in to pitch to Berkman when the score was 9-1. Using 7 pitchers in a game that is already decided makes no sense. Especially when Reidling (a spot starter) pitched 2 2/3 innings with allowing a hit, he hadn't pitched for 6 days.

The game ended up 9-8, so it wasn't over. This ain't 80's baseball, when a 4-5 run lead was like, well, a 1-0 soccer game.

korme

07-20-2003, 11:44 AM

Originally posted by Balldog
The game was actually 9-1 at that point.

Suicane, I guess I have no grasp of the game since the HS team I coached the last two years went 34-10. I think if you look at the baseball strategy thread you'll find I do know a little something.

I guess to me that rule doesn't make any sense but then again Haynes was horrible yesterday and did deserve the loss.

Balldog it really is a simple rule.. if a starter is removed and his team is losing, no matter if a reliever gives up 10 more runs, the starter would still get the loss because he put them in that position.

korme

07-20-2003, 11:49 AM

Also, I do agree that Boone is a borderline idiot. He rests guys way too much. AB his son, plays everyday, but I swear I've never seen Kearns or Dunn start 5 games in a row.

Cards4ever

07-20-2003, 12:23 PM

Originally posted by EagleFan
You coach a high school team but have no grasp on what pitcher gets the loss in a game, one of the most basic rules of the game.

Please learn the rules of the game before you pick apart a major league manager.

I think EagleFan is spot on here.

korme

07-20-2003, 12:42 PM

9-1, yes it is obvious who lost. But I see where Balldog got confused, because it ended up being 9-8.

Theoretically, if Reith didn't give up any runs, we would have won, so he's saying that is why he should have gotten the loss. But since at no point did the Reds ever take the lead or tie the game, Haynes was still the losing pitcher.

Hope I cleared that up.

JeeberD

07-20-2003, 02:08 PM

All I gotta say is....

Back to Back to Back!!!! :D

Balldog

07-20-2003, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by Ksyrup
The game ended up 9-8, so it wasn't over. This ain't 80's baseball, when a 4-5 run lead was like, well, a 1-0 soccer game.

Baboon must have thought it was over when he took out 3 starters in the 7th.

Baffled Reds swept again by Astros, The Reds were unable to solve the mystery of the Astros falling, 6-3, Sunday and suffering their second consecutive four-game sweep by Houston.

Today Ruben Mateo sits out after going 2-4 with 3 RBI yesterday and Danny Graves got shelled but couldn't be taken out because the whole bullpen was used yesterday. Larkin also didn't start.

JeeberD

07-20-2003, 06:25 PM

...and Jeff Bagwell hits his 400th career homer!!!!

JonInMiddleGA

07-20-2003, 06:32 PM

Originally posted by Shorty3281
AB his son, plays everyday, but I swear I've never seen Kearns or Dunn start 5 games in a row.

Curiosity got the better of me, so I went to the stats ...

Dunn -- started everyday between 7/1 and 7/13 (the all-star break). Pretty good for a guy who's BA hasn't been above .245 all season & strikes out more than 1/3 of his AB's.

Kearns -- had 2 runs of 5 days or more in April, an 11 game & a 5 game in May and 3 such stretches in June. Again, not bad for a guy who has hit below .215 since May 1st.

A.Boone - Hasn't had much in the way of days off but then again he's one of the few Reds (along with Guillenwho's hitting has improved every month since April.

The Reds are 24/30 in Avg & OBP, 17/30 Slg, 29/30 in ERA, 28/30 in BB allowed, and 23/30 in W/L.

Looks to me like the problem isn't the manager but the players.

TroyF

07-20-2003, 06:38 PM

I think you are underestimating how tough it is to handle a bullpen when you can't count on ANY of your starter going past 6 to stop the bleeding.

Your best regular starter has an ERA over 5 and averages about 5 2/3 innings a start. He's the BEST starter you have.

You now know as a manager that your bullpen is going to be wasted 90% of the time. You have to use 3, 4, 5 relievers a night because your starters can't get anyone out. You also know that there's going to be days your starter is just going to have to deal with it, because you can't spend the bullpen anymore.

At another point in the season you had 4 OF who deserved to play everyday. You try juggling them around and nobody is happy. Now 2 of the 3 are on the DL and nowhere to be found.

I'd HATE to be managing in that situation. I don't especially like Boone as a manager. In fact, I think you'll probably be SLIGHTLY better off if he's gone. Yet, the manager aint going to fix this team's problems. You're going to see the next manager use 20 players in a game a few times the rest of the year as well. It's what happens in the NL when your pitchers are getting shelled and you have to use pinch hitters.

There isn't any magic bullet for this problem. You need better starting pitching. At least passable starting pitching. Right now you aren't even close. If the pitching doesn't improve, you'll get worse throughout the rest of the year. The bullpen will start to wear down and get worse.

As for how he handled the kid yesterday, I'd give him an A+. Just my opinion.

TroyF

Balldog

07-20-2003, 07:36 PM

Originally posted by JonInMiddleGA
Curiosity got the better of me, so I went to the stats ...

Dunn -- started everyday between 7/1 and 7/13 (the all-star break). Pretty good for a guy who's BA hasn't been above .245 all season & strikes out more than 1/3 of his AB's.

Kearns -- had 2 runs of 5 days or more in April, an 11 game & a 5 game in May and 3 such stretches in June. Again, not bad for a guy who has hit below .215 since May 1st.

A.Boone - Hasn't had much in the way of days off but then again he's one of the few Reds (along with Guillenwho's hitting has improved every month since April.

The Reds are 24/30 in Avg & OBP, 17/30 Slg, 29/30 in ERA, 28/30 in BB allowed, and 23/30 in W/L.

Looks to me like the problem isn't the manager but the players.

Why Dunn and Kearns continued to play instead of Guillen during that time baffles me as well. He was hitting .340 with 14 HRs and 41 RBIs but riding the pine while Kearns and Dunn were doing nothing but he says he needs Guillen's bat off the bench.

lynchjm24

07-20-2003, 08:25 PM

JonInMiddleGA

07-20-2003, 08:31 PM

Originally posted by Balldog
Why Dunn and Kearns continued to play instead of Guillen during that time baffles me as well. He was hitting .340 with 14 HRs and 41 RBIs but riding the pine while Kearns and Dunn were doing nothing but he says he needs Guillen's bat off the bench.

First of all, please let me correct a typo in my earlier post.

Dunn has hit below .215 since June 1st, not May1.

May --
Kearns 26 starts
Dunn 22 starts
Guillen 20 starts
Griffey 13 starts

June --
Kearns 22 starts
Dunn 22 starts
Guillen 16 starts
Griffey 17 starts

July (to all-star break)
Guillen 13 starts
Kearns 4 starts (inj. on July 9)
Dunn 13 starts
Griffey 9 starts

Then when I look to see what the defensive history of the quarter are, i find that Guillen has been almost exclusively a RF, Griffey a CF, Kearns CF/RF, and Dunn is the only one with any significant time in LF.

That may well account for Dunn's seemingly disproportional number of starts.

Meanwhile I don't think too many managers are secure enough in their job to sit Griffey's salary when it's healthy and Kearns looks to be a case of hoping that he'll break out of it just as he did in 2002 (.214 in June, .361 after the break)

So it doesn't look to me that, in spite of the perception, the OF playing time is noticeably different than most other managers would have.

Balldog

07-20-2003, 08:52 PM

Well Dunn is hitting .201 on the season, I don't see the reason he should be in the lineup. He's a defensive liability. Yeah he has power, look at hit BAVG this season:

Apr: .241
May: .193
Jun: .183
Jul: .172

Seems to be a trend here.

Then for some stupid reason when Kent Mercker went down a few weeks ago, Boone said he needed another outfielder so that brought up Steve Smitherman. He got to play in 1 game and got 1 at-bat. They had 7 OFs at that point all healthy.

Ranier Olmedo was hitting .289 and is the only player with good speed on the team, plus he plays excellent defense. Now he is in the minors but Felipe Lopez got twice as many at bats, played piss poor defense, and hit .213

Boone was voted the 2nd worst manager in the game by MLB players in some poll I seen the other day.

Kearns has had a bad shoulder since late May, I don't see why he wasn't rested instead of playing everyday. Hence his .229 AVG in June.

kcchief19

07-20-2003, 09:03 PM

A discussion of statistics and rules of baseball are obscuring the true fact: Bob Boone is a horrible manager. The numbers don't do it justice. You have to watch him manage a team on a daily basis to truly understand how horrible a manager this guy is.

When he was in Kansas City, he buried Mike Sweeney on the bench until and refused to let him DH. Boonie gave convulated explainations about how you don't let young guys DH. OK ...

His two main crimes against humanity are the sacrifice bunt and his lineup card. This guy REFUSES to use the same lineup twice. If this guy managed the '27 Yankees, he would have bat Ruth and Gehrig 7th and 8th everyonce in a while "just to shake things up." In Kansas City, we saw Boonie put the sacrifice on in bizarre situations, like when he's down 7-1 in the 8th inning. He also LOVED putting on the sacrifice with two strikes on the batter. Good call.

There's a reason why at both the major and minor league levels he has never had a winning season. He completely mismanages talent. And if you think I and tens of thousands of Royals and Reds fans don't know shit about baseball, just read what his current and former players say about him. In the Sports Illustrated poll of major leaguers he was voted the second-worst manager in the league.

JonInMiddleGA

07-20-2003, 10:08 PM

Originally posted by kcchief19 This guy REFUSES to use the same lineup twice. If this guy managed the '27 Yankees, he would have bat Ruth and Gehrig 7th and 8th everyonce in a while "just to shake things up."

Okay, let's see here ... I need a list for comparison, so let's work with Baker, Cox & LaRussa (picked as the 3 best NL mgrs in the SI poll). To try to make this manageable (pun intended) I'm going to work with the five guys with the most AB's on each team. The % figure will be the amount of their AB's taken from their most common spot in the lineup.

Reds
Boone - 5th - 274/361 - 76%
Casey - 3rd - 145/356 - 41%
Dunn - 6th - 106/296 - 36%
Kearns - 4th - 279/292 - 96%
Guillen - 2nd - 164/272 - 60%
TOTAL - 968/1577 - 61.4% in primary

Cubs
Alou - 4th - 257/354 - 73%
A.Gonzalez - 2nd 282/349 - 81%
Grudzielanek - 1st - 290/347 - 84%
Patterson - 3rd - 152/329 - 46%
Sosa - 4th - 175/268 - 65%
TOTAL - 1156/1647 - 70.2% in primary

Braves
Furcal - 1st - 399/399 - 100%
A.Jones - 5th - 305/355 -
Sheffield - 3rd - 336/336 - 100%
Castilla - 7th - 174/332 -
C.Jones - 4th - 302/325 -
TOTAL - 1516/1747 - 86.8% in primary

Cards
Renteria - 1st - 367/368 - 100%
Pujols - 3rd - 297/359 - 83%
Rolen - 5th - 245/330 - 74%
Edmonds - 4th - 182/314 - 58%
T.Martinez - 6th - 137/298 - 46%
TOTAL - 1228/1669 - 73.6% in primary

So there is at least a quantifiable difference in amount of AB's taken in a primary spot in the batting order.

But consider this ... Lou Pinella, voted 6th best in the poll, has used his top five batters in their primary spot only 52.6% of their AB's. And yet their team BA is 16 points higher than the Reds.

So ... are the Reds struggling because the lineup is shaken up? Or is the lineup shaken up because the Reds are struggling?

I believe that you've hit on the most quantifiable reason for the anti-Boone sentiment (other than W/L) so far, but I don't know that I see enough to believe that it's a clearly smoking gun for the prosecution either.

In the Sports Illustrated poll of major leaguers he was voted the second-worst manager in the league.

As for that, I like Phil Sheridan's take (http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/6222884.htm) pretty well. He's talking about Larry Bowa but a good bit of the argument might be applied to any manager in the poll.

Or, as Mike Liberthal put it (about Larry Bowa being voted the worst) "I don't think 550 players have played for Bowa,"

And FTR, I really don't have a dog in this fight at all and I'm not trying to pick a fight with you either. Like I said, my curiosity was aroused for some reason by some of the stuff in the thread & I decided to look to see if I could find the relationship between perception & reality. Sometimes when I take off on these exercises the numbers match, sometimes they don't, it's just occasionally interesting to see how those sort of things turn out.
Jon

Balldog

07-20-2003, 10:25 PM

Adam Dunn has batted anywhere from 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th this year.

Sean Casey has done the same.

Having played quite a bit of baseball I found it harder to hit when your spot in the order is changing on a regular basis, pitchers pitch you differently depending your spot in the lineup a lot of times.

I think if Boone would just stick with this lineup they would win more games.

1. Jimenez, 2B
2. Larkin, SS
3. Guillen, RF
4. Casey, 1B
5. Kearns, CF
6. Dunn, LF
7. Boone, 3B
8. Larue, C

Instead everyday he is scrambling the order and the players involved. During this 4 game series with the Astros they didn't have the same lineup twice.

Part of the game is being comfortable at the plate, its hard to get comfortable at the plate hitting in a different spot everyday.

Bearcat729

07-20-2003, 10:53 PM

Your lineup doesn't take into account horrible pitching. Sure the hitters may be more comfortable, but if our starters can't make it out of the 5th inning every night our bullpen is going to get tired and useless. Using the same lineup every night isn't going to get this team into the playoffs.

Right now Boone is #3 on the list who should be replaced. Right after Linder and Allen. You get someone in here who will spend some more money to put talent on the field and the team will win.

I find it odd that the same city that blames Mike Brown for the Bengals doesn't do the same for the Reds.

Since the upper management has shown no real interest in winning I say we bench Guillen who isn't going to come backnext season anyways and get Wily Mo Pena some at bats. If he has to be up here and we have a spot we ought to let him play.

JonInMiddleGA

07-20-2003, 10:56 PM

Originally posted by Balldog 1. Jimenez, 2B
2. Larkin, SS
3. Guillen, RF
4. Casey, 1B
5. Kearns, CF
6. Dunn, LF
7. Boone, 3B
8. Larue, C

Before you get too settled on that lineup, consider ...

Jimenez lifetime OBP as a lead-off hitter is .349 ... lower than the current season OBP of Guillen, Branyan, Kearns, Dunn, Casey and the same (well, .348) of AAA Ryan Freel.

Boone has an .848 OPS in the 5 hole this year, .824 for his career. By comparison, Kearns is slightly lower hitting 5th than 4th.

Guillen lifetime is .177 OPS better as a #2 than a #3 (.954 to .777)

I could go on but the point is ... no matter how you slice this lineup, it doesn't seem likely to be significantly better than what Boone has done with it.

korme

07-20-2003, 11:44 PM

Jon, you a friend of Bob Boone or something? :)

JonInMiddleGA

07-21-2003, 12:27 AM

Nah Shorty, like I tried to say earlier, sometimes I just get curious about how people's perceptions of things & the numbers match/don't match. I'd been working all afternoon & knew I had to spend several more hours with the same project tonight so I needed something else to occupy my mind for a while & this happened to strike my fancy.

The first time I remember doing something like this online was during a fantasy league draft and a discussion about Ryan Klesko's ability/inability to hit with men on base and/or in key situations came up. I knew my mental image of him but didn't really know whether the numbers would match my perception at the time.

I seem to remember some conversation about , I think it was college football (or maybe NFL running backs or something) here at FOFC that kinda hit the same note with me & I ended up plowing through a pile of numbers about some specific subject that I really had little to no interest in other than seeing how perceptions matched the stats.

Not really a hobby exactly, just a diversionary tactic to take my mind off whatever I was supposed to be doing.

Jon

cuervo72

07-21-2003, 08:23 AM

Originally posted by Balldog
Well Dunn is hitting .201 on the season, I don't see the reason he should be in the lineup. He's a defensive liability. Yeah he has power, look at hit BAVG this season:

But he has a .342 OBP though, with 25 HR's. That being said, he does need to work on that average.

Here's a fun comparison:

G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
92 299 56 60 6 1 25 48 58 103 7 2 .201 .342 .478 .821 - Player A
95 424 77 123 17 4 24 59 26 79 25 4 .290 .343 .519 .862 - Player B

Cards4ever

07-21-2003, 08:34 AM

Part of the reason Guillen might be playing so much is, they may be looking to move him.

Another Cincinnati problem, giving Larkin that huge contract at his age. Big mistake.

oykib

07-21-2003, 10:04 AM

Originally posted by cuervo72
But he has a .342 OBP though, with 25 HR's. That being said, he does need to work on that average.

Here's a fun comparison:

G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
92 299 56 60 6 1 25 48 58 103 7 2 .201 .342 .478 .821 - Player A
95 424 77 123 17 4 24 59 26 79 25 4 .290 .343 .519 .862 - Player B

If Player B is Alfonso Soriano, you're comparing a bad outfielder with a second baseman (admittedly a just adequate one).

But I agree with you that people are being too hard on Dunn. Considering his age, he is doing very well. Even with his current numbers, his production is well above the replacement level.

All that being said, doesn't it make sense to invest some money in a real manager when you're pinning your hopes on Dunn and Kearns? The story goeds that WIllie Randolph had the job locked up, but walked out when he was insulted by a ridiculously lowball offer.

I don't know that Randolph would be the next coming of Joe McCarthy, but he couldn't be any worse than Boone. Obviously, even Reds management thought so because they offered him the job before Boone.

JPhillips

07-21-2003, 10:39 AM

This team has a lot of problems. You always hear about teams being better than the record, well this team is worse than the record.

They have no starters, hell Bowden says he isn't committed to ANY of the teams starters. The starter ERA will be in the bottom five at the end of the season. The GM hasn't been able land any starters he likes.

They can't hit for average. They will be in the bottom five for average at the end of the year. They can't hit with runners in scoring position. Dunn hasn't driven in a teamate in 41 games. It was May since he drove in a teamate.

They are one of the worst fielding teams in baseball. The pitchers don't strike out many batters and the fielders boot a lot of balls. They will be in the bottom five in fielding at the end of the year.

They have nobody coming to help them in the minors. Again, the Reds' farm system was rated near the bottom. There isn't one guy that in the minors that seems to have All-Star potential.

They have nobody to trade to get prospects. Boone may be the one exception to this. I don't know who needs a third baseman, but Boone hits and fields pretty well. Outside of him, who can they trade? Larkin is too old. Dunn won't get a return anywhere equal to his potential. Griffey is out. Nobody will give much for the team strength, middle relief. This team won't be much better next year.

The Reds need to be completely revamped. They need a GM that can create and execute a five year plan. Currently they have a roster that Joe Torre couldn't win 90 games with. Boone may have problems, but the real issue here is management's inability to assemble a roster that can win. Until they get some pitchers that can hold a lead past the first batter, this team isn't going anywhere but down.

cuervo72

07-21-2003, 11:00 AM

Originally posted by oykib
If Player B is Alfonso Soriano, you're comparing a bad outfielder with a second baseman (admittedly a just adequate one).

But I agree with you that people are being too hard on Dunn. Considering his age, he is doing very well. Even with his current numbers, his production is well above the replacement level.

All that being said, doesn't it make sense to invest some money in a real manager when you're pinning your hopes on Dunn and Kearns? The story goeds that WIllie Randolph had the job locked up, but walked out when he was insulted by a ridiculously lowball offer.

I don't know that Randolph would be the next coming of Joe McCarthy, but he couldn't be any worse than Boone. Obviously, even Reds management thought so because they offered him the job before Boone.

You're right, the comparison wasn't completely fair. Soriano is much more valuable at 2B than Dunn is in the OF. But the OBP's and HR's stood out. But my point indeed is that people are being a little hard on Dunn.

Cards4ever

07-21-2003, 11:07 AM

Hmm, I wonder what you could get from the Cubs for Boone, they are desperate for a 3B.

Balldog

07-21-2003, 11:41 AM

I'd hate to see how bad their record would be if they didn't win about 20 games in their last at bats.

Boone is one of the few players I'd like to see stay around, he can play 2b, 3b, and SS. He has some speed, enough to steal 20 bases and he is one of the few guys that gets pissed off.

Everyone I know would like to see Casey get traded but I don't, he's always been hitting around .300 (except last year). Though he does have the power of a second baseman and he runs like a turtle, but he can hit. If I had to choose Dunn or Casey to go I'd say send Dunn because he hasn't proven to be more than maybe a one year wonder but then they probably won't get much for him.

oykib

07-21-2003, 12:05 PM

Originally posted by Balldog
I'd hate to see how bad their record would be if they didn't win about 20 games in their last at bats.

Boone is one of the few players I'd like to see stay around, he can play 2b, 3b, and SS. He has some speed, enough to steal 20 bases and he is one of the few guys that gets pissed off.

Everyone I know would like to see Casey get traded but I don't, he's always been hitting around .300 (except last year). Though he does have the power of a second baseman and he runs like a turtle, but he can hit. If I had to choose Dunn or Casey to go I'd say send Dunn because he hasn't proven to be more than maybe a one year wonder but then they probably won't get much for him.

This is the thinking that I don't understand. Right now, Dunn is better than Casey. The Reds couldn't deal Casey if they wanted to. A .300 hitting first baseman with no power is a waste aof a good hitting spot. That's where you stick a guy like Dunn, who is a liability in the field.

That's not even considering that one is (very) likely to improve and one is not ever going to improve. Guys like Casey are a dime a dozen talent-wise. I don't know what he does for the clubhouse. But it's the sign of a bad front office that there hasn't been any production out of the first baseman position for so long. Especielly, you have to consider it bad that he makes so much money to put up such unimpressive numbers at first.

cuervo72

07-21-2003, 12:28 PM

Originally posted by oykib

That's not even considering that one is (very) likely to improve and one is not ever going to improve

I'd just like to add that Casey is 6 years older than Dunn (29 to 23).

ISiddiqui

07-21-2003, 01:25 PM

Dunn is much better than his batting average. His Secondary Average is very high (about .455, if my calcuations were correct, which they may not be :D).

Bearcat729

07-21-2003, 02:01 PM

Anyone who knocks Casey's power should go back and look at the 1B for the WS teams over the past few seasons.

He may not hit 30HR but then the last player to do that and play in the series was Tino Martinez, and Martinez is the only one to hit more than 25 HR and play 1B in the series since Thome in '97.

The Reds won't be able to trade him because he's an over paid (I believe he'll earn 7 million next season) 1B with little power.

korme

07-21-2003, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by oykib
This is the thinking that I don't understand. Right now, Dunn is better than Casey. The Reds couldn't deal Casey if they wanted to. A .300 hitting first baseman with no power is a waste aof a good hitting spot. That's where you stick a guy like Dunn, who is a liability in the field.

Actually Casey has shown some power. When I went Friday, I look up at the scoreboard, and it says Sean Casey's stats, and there it is, 10 HR. I procedded to say to my friends. "Sean Casey has 10 homeruns? Holy shit, I think he had like 7 last year."

So Casey is on pace to hit about 20. Still not great I suppose, but better than what he had been putting up the past couple of years.

His OPS is right below .800.