Stewart/Kielty revisited

[bbor]

As much as i thought Stewart is a solid ballplayer...i gotta admit that Kielty has made me forget about him fairly quickly.

This guy is solid...plays all three OF positions...and has started a few games at 1st.He has decent power.....and has'nt swung at a pitch out of the strike zone since he got here.

How are Minnesotans warming up to Stewart?

[JeeberD]

Are Minnesotans ever warm?

[The Afoci]

I haven't watched a game since the trade, but I know he is getting pretty decent reviews by talk radio. What it did was free up Jacque Jones who was one of our better power hitters, but had to hit lead off. I think they have been on a little win streak, so I think it is good. Obviously, I am not the biggest Baseball fan in the world, but try to pay some attention to it.

[John Galt]

To use a Neyer device, which player would you rather have?

Player A - 26 years old, .827 OPS (.832 career), .383 OBP, 6 SB (in 60 fewer AB)

Player B - 29 years old, .830 OPS (.817 career), .363 OBP, 1 SB

Then add the fact that Player A is locked in for several pre-arbitration, non-free agent years while B is a free agent at the end of the season. Player A is of course Kielty and B is Stewart. The silly justification I've heard for this trade is that Stewart brings more speed. The man has 1 SB this year (compared to Kielty's 6) and his knees make his defense sucky. Stewart WAS fast and better a few years ago. If only the Twins could have a 26 year old Stewart. Oh yeah, they did. Then they traded him for the 29 year old version.

[Cards4ever]

The Twins were looking for someone to move Jones out of the leadoff spot, Stewart claims that the Jays didn't really want him to steal bases, we shall see if that claim is true or not in the coming weeks. The Twins have a glut of OF prospects, so, trading Kielty doesn't hurt them, not to mention his defensive play hasn't been that good this season.

Before you throw up comparisons like the above, it has to be mentioned that Kielty has only 650 career ML AB's, so, we really don't know what he is yet either do we?

[Balldog]

Kielty is one of the most underrated players in the league.

[John Galt]

650 ML AB's is no small sample size. If you don't know what kind of player you have after that, then you will never know.

And they could have just as easily moved Kielty into the leadoff position (which they did for a brief period this year with success). You are right that the Jays stopped Stewart from running this year, but is 14 SB last year is pretty much what Kielty can offer.

You are also right that the Twins have a glut of OF prospects which is why they should have traded one for a middle IF and not another OF. Guzman and Rivas are an embarrasment to the league with their pitiful offense.

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by Cards4ever
The Twins were looking for someone to move Jones out of the leadoff spot, Stewart claims that the Jays didn't really want him to steal bases, we shall see if that claim is true or not in the coming weeks. The Twins have a glut of OF prospects, so, trading Kielty doesn't hurt them, not to mention his defensive play hasn't been that good this season.

Before you throw up comparisons like the above, it has to be mentioned that Kielty has only 650 career ML AB's, so, we really don't know what he is yet either do we?

The point is, Kielty was the lead-off guy they could have used to move Jones out of that spot. He can run a little, and has a better OBP than Stewart. And I understand they have a glut of OFs, but they traded him for...an OF. Had they moved him for a 2B or SS, then the deal might have made some sense, because they would have been adding to the team, not trading zero-sum pieces. And that's without even considering their relative contract situations.

At the very least, I would have tried it first, or else made the decision to trade an expendable OF for something other than another OF who is not a dramatic upgrade. His value could have been used to improve a real weakness of the team, but it was not.

[Ksyrup]

I think John Galt and I are on the same page here!

[Cards4ever]

650 AB's is about a season's worth of AB's, so, you have never heard of a Sophmore slump? I'd say Kielty is going to turn out to be a utility OF, nothing more, nothing less. Which middle IF is out there that suits there needs? The only one that I can think of is Castillo and right now Florida is not dealing.

[Cards4ever]

Originally posted by Ksyrup
The point is, Kielty was the lead-off guy they could have used to move Jones out of that spot. He can run a little, and has a better OBP than Stewart. And I understand they have a glut of OFs, but they traded him for...an OF. Had they moved him for a 2B or SS, then the deal might have made some sense, because they would have been adding to the team, not trading zero-sum pieces. And that's without even considering their relative contract situations.

At the very least, I would have tried it first, or else made the decision to trade an expendable OF for something other than another OF who is not a dramatic upgrade. His value could have been used to improve a real weakness of the team, but it was not.


They wanted a veteran hitter, Stewart also serves that purpose.

Also, look at the question that bbor asked, he isn't asking who is better, he's asking if the Twins are happy with the trade.

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by Cards4ever
650 AB's is about a season's worth of AB's, so, you have never heard of a Sophmore slump? I'd say Kielty is going to turn out to be a utility OF, nothing more, nothing less. Which middle IF is out there that suits there needs? The only one that I can think of is Castillo and right now Florida is not dealing.

They could have turned their attention to a SP then, right? The point is, they have weaknesses that they didn't address with this trade. Kielty might not amount to anything, but for this year, he is on par with Stewart. And considering they've only got Stewart for the remainder of this year, that's the only thing you really need to know about Kielty. If they really didn't feel that Kielty was an everyday OF, they should have held on to him until the off-season, and tried to deal him then. A solid OF, even if ultimately a utility OF, is valuable when he is still not to free agent status. And I'm entirely sure other teams in the majors share that opinion of him.

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by Cards4ever
They wanted a veteran hitter, Stewart also serves that purpose.

Also, look at the question that bbor asked, he isn't asking who is better, he's asking if the Twins are happy with the trade.

Veteran hitter? What does that mean? Frankly, that sounds like some 75 year old scout's justification for not sticking with a younger player. "We need a veteran presence in the lineup." Well, they got one, with a veteran price tag and numbers equivalent to the younger guy they traded for him.

BTW, Rickey Henderson is a "veteran" hitter, why didn't they sign him?

I know we aren't answering bbor's question, but we're off on a tangent. Considering the guy is hitting near .500 since the trade, I'm sure the Twins and their fans are happy so far. I get the feeling this trade was made solely to show that they are trying to do something, when in reality, it didn't do all that much.

[Cards4ever]

Originally posted by Ksyrup
They could have turned their attention to a SP then, right? The point is, they have weaknesses that they didn't address with this trade. Kielty might not amount to anything, but for this year, he is on par with Stewart. And considering they've only got Stewart for the remainder of this year, that's the only thing you really need to know about Kielty. If they really didn't feel that Kielty was an everyday OF, they should have held on to him until the off-season, and tried to deal him then. A solid OF, even if ultimately a utility OF, is valuable when he is still not to free agent status. And I'm entirely sure other teams in the majors share that opinion of him.


The Twins are in the race this year, they wanted a professional hitter, whether you, I or God, think this is a good trade or a bad trade, that's what the Twins are thinking. If you don't want to acknowledge that, and instead browbeat me with how right you are and how wrong I am, go ahead, I'm used to it, it's par for the course around here. bbor asked if Minnesota was happy with the trade, and I answered him. I listen to sports radio here and that is the vibe here.

[Cards4ever]

Originally posted by Ksyrup
Veteran hitter? What does that mean? Frankly, that sounds like some 75 year old scout's justification for not sticking with a younger player. "We need a veteran presence in the lineup." Well, they got one, with a veteran price tag and numbers equivalent to the younger guy they traded for him.

BTW, Rickey Henderson is a "veteran" hitter, why didn't they sign him?

I know we aren't answering bbor's question, but we're off on a tangent. Considering the guy is hitting near .500 since the trade, I'm sure the Twins and their fans are happy so far. I get the feeling this trade was made solely to show that they are trying to do something, when in reality, it didn't do all that much.

Toronto is paying his contract

[CentralMassHokie]

From the Twins perspective, there's only a few of ways this makes sense:

1) The Twins are still in the old-school mindset of needing "raw speed" at the top of the lineup. Stewart has the reputation of being fast, and is certainly faster than Kielty. Even though he's had the breaks put on by Tosca and Riccardi, he's still stolen bases at a fairly successful rate. Granted, the SB is one of the more overrated tools for a major league manager, but Gardenhire seems to me to be Dusty Baker-lite, overrating SBs and "Veteran Leadership". Twins fans should just be glad that they didn't trade Kielty for Darren Lewis or Tom Goodwin.

2) The Twins wanted to make a move that seems like a "youngster for veteran" move that gives the appearance of fighting to stay in the race in what's obviously a dissapointing season.

3) The Twins plan on offering Stewart arbitration this season, hoping he walks, and getting a sandwich pick out of it, which could turn out to be a player better than Kielty.

Worst case scenario for the Twins is that Stewart accepts arbitration and resigns. And that's a really bad situation, as he's probably going to be in the 4-6 million range, which is a lot of money to pay for a decrease in performance from Kielty.

Best case scenario is that he rejects arbitration and a team like the Cubs or Pirates signs him. The Twins would likely pick up a decent sandwich round pick (I'm speculating on Stewart's FA rating), which given their recent successes drafting and developing, could be a better player than Kielty.

[John Galt]

Originally posted by Cards4ever
The Twins are in the race this year, they wanted a professional hitter, whether you, I or God, think this is a good trade or a bad trade, that's what the Twins are thinking. If you don't want to acknowledge that, and instead browbeat me with how right you are and how wrong I am, go ahead, I'm used to it, it's par for the course around here. bbor asked if Minnesota was happy with the trade, and I answered him. I listen to sports radio here and that is the vibe here.

Wow, I've never seen a Cardinals fan get so upset at what a Yankees fan has to say about a Twins/Jays trade. :)

[Cards4ever]

Originally posted by John Galt
Wow, I've never seen a Cardinals fan get so upset at what a Yankees fan has to say about a Twins/Jays trade. :)

I also watch a lot of Twins games, I was just trying to answer bbor's question. Instead I get hit with this discussion of how Bobby Kielty is on his way to the HOF and how the Twins fucked everything up.

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by Cards4ever
The Twins are in the race this year, they wanted a professional hitter, whether you, I or God, think this is a good trade or a bad trade, that's what the Twins are thinking. If you don't want to acknowledge that, and instead browbeat me with how right you are and how wrong I am, go ahead, I'm used to it, it's par for the course around here. bbor asked if Minnesota was happy with the trade, and I answered him. I listen to sports radio here and that is the vibe here.

Why is it with you, that everything is "you're right and I'm wrong?" We're having a freaking discussion of the trade, nobody is right or wrong. It's my opinion that they didn't get anything different than they already had. I don't really care what God's opinion of the trade is, although since he let Stewart and Kielty through His waivers, I'll take that to mean he approved it.

You pointed out the Twins' rationale for making the deal, but John Galt and I pointed out what was wrong with their rationale. I don't even think you gave your opinion of the trade, you were just relaying (as I understood your comments) what the local sports people and the Twins' justification for the trade was. So how that turned into a "browbeating" of you is beyond my comprehension.

You really need to take a step back and realize that comments made about the subject matter of any particular thread are not being directed at you personally.

[MylesKnight]

Speaking of the Twinkies, are they ever going to call up homegrown prospect Michael Restovich from AAA Rochester (NY)?

This guy is a former AAU Hoops Teammate of mine from wayyy back in the day. Come on Twinkies, give him the call..

[Cards4ever]

Originally posted by MylesKnight
Speaking of the Twinkies, are they ever going to call up homegrown prospect Michael Restovich from AAA Rochester (NY)?

This guy is a former AAU Hoops Teammate of mine from wayyy back in the day. Come on Twinkies, give him the call..


If he goes up, it will be September.

[MylesKnight]

Cards, problem for Resto is the damn logjam in the Outfield that didn't become any less so with the addition of Stewart. As of now he's basically just taking care of business in AAA and waiting for his opportunity.. How long will he have to wait though? It seems like he's been waiting forever.

Heck, I wouldn't be surprised to see him traded elsewhere eventually, unless someone else is moved instead.

[Cards4ever]

Originally posted by Ksyrup
Why is it with you, that everything is "you're right and I'm wrong?" We're having a freaking discussion of the trade, nobody is right or wrong. It's my opinion that they didn't get anything different than they already had. I don't really care what God's opinion of the trade is, although since he let Stewart and Kielty through His waivers, I'll take that to mean he approved it.

You pointed out the Twins' rationale for making the deal, but John Galt and I pointed out what was wrong with their rationale. I don't even think you gave your opinion of the trade, you were just relaying (as I understood your comments) what the local sports people and the Twins' justification for the trade was. So how that turned into a "browbeating" of you is beyond my comprehension.

You really need to take a step back and realize that comments made about the subject matter of any particular thread are not being directed at you personally.

I don't even know how to respond to this. If you don't see what I'm talking about, then never mind.

[Ksyrup]

Yes, I see exactly what you are talking about. And your "quit picking on me" response has been a pretty consistent refrain of yours for quite a while, when all anyone is doing is discussing or - gasp! - arguing about various subjects.

Despite your obvious belief otherwise, it's nothing personal. If you truly don't believe me, then you must have a difficult time co-existing with other humans on this planet, if something as inane as this sets off that kind of reaction to a discussion of a baseball trade.

[John Galt]

Originally posted by Cards4ever
I don't even know how to respond to this. If you don't see what I'm talking about, then never mind.

It's funny. I posted about the trade and Cards4ever replied to my post. When I reply back, I'm browbeating? Cards, you didn't actually replied to bbor, you replied to him and me. That Ksyrup and I took issue with your claims in a friendly manner seems to be discussion, not personal attack. Are you sure you aren't seeing things that aren't really there?

[John Galt]

Wow, I'm turning into Ksyrup. ;)

[Ksyrup]

This is just like during the discussions - or hell, call them arguments if you want - about the baseball strike and the owners/players faults, etc. At some point in nearly every one of those threads, we got hit with this same kind of "you're always right and I'm always wrong" hyperbole, when it was just a discussion of a freaking sport. Sure, it got heated at times, but in my mind at least, it was nothing personal. Just different sides to an argument.

I understand that on a message board, people's tones don't always come through. So that's why I'm telling you, Cards, that unless I specifically use your name and suggest that your argument is stupid, that's not the underlying intent of my comments. Is that clear enough?

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by John Galt
Wow, I'm turning into Ksyrup. ;)

Just think of the massive browbeatings we could lay down if we were one! Muhahahahahaha!

[John Galt]

Originally posted by Ksyrup
Just think of the massive browbeatings we could lay down if we were one! Muhahahahahaha!

LOL. That is too frightening to contemplate.

[Maple Leafs]

As a Blue Jays fan, I'd just like to echo the point already made that any attempt to correlate Stewart's speed to his stolen base totals is futile. The Jays just don't run under the Ricciardi regime. It's not allowed. The current Blue Jays make the Red Sox look like the '85 Royals.

He's not the 50 SB guy he was before he, um, bulked up. But he's still a legitimate 20-25 SB guy, maybe 30 if he really decides to run. Not great, but not bad at all.

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by Maple Leafs
He's not the 50 SB guy he was before he, um, bulked up. But he's still a legitimate 20-25 SB guy, maybe 30 if he really decides to run. Not great, but not bad at all.

I can buy that, and I also agree with whomever suggested that the Twins still live by the seemingly outdated notion that you have to have speed at the top of your lineup. I'd be more concerned with my lead-off man's OBP, and that's where Stewart isn't all that different from Kielty.

So yes, if they are going to run more, than Stewart is probably the guy you want. But I just don't see him being that much more valuable than Kielty, to justify throwing away Kielty's arbitration years for half a season of Stewart.

At least they didn't trade for Tony Womack, who is quite possibly the most overrated "lead-off man" in baseball in the past decade or so. Just cause a guy's got speed, doesn't mean he's worth having at the top of your order.

[oykib]

At least they didn't trade for Tony Womack, who is quite possibly the most overrated "lead-off man" in baseball in the past decade or so. Just cause a guy's got speed, doesn't mean he's worth having at the top of your order.

Hey, Ksyrup, there's an error in your last quote. It should have read,

"At least they didn't trade for Tony Womack, who is quite possibly the most overrated "lead-off man" in baseball in the past decade or so. Just cause a guy's got speed, doesn't mean he's worth having.";)

[bbor]

The Minny GM came on to Toronto radio after the deal(sorry i forget his name)

He basically explained the trade like this..The team was slumping and he needed to do something to jump start the team....Kielty is a guy they did'nt wanna give up...but as everyone mentioned they have a glut of OF and can stand to lose 2(kielty and Stewart at the end of the season)It was purely a shake up move.The Jays HAD to pay Kielty's salary he said or else the deal would never have been made.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally posted by Ksyrup
I can buy that, and I also agree with whomever suggested that the Twins still live by the seemingly outdated notion that you have to have speed at the top of your lineup. I'd be more concerned with my lead-off man's OBP, and that's where Stewart isn't all that different from Kielty.Yes and no. By my calculations, the difference between Stewart's .363 OBP and Kielty's .383 is about seven outs. That's not insignificant, but if Stewart is significantly faster than it may be worth the trade off. Remember, speed from your leadoff man can mean going first-to-third or scoring from first on a gapper, not just stolen bases.

By the way, some free advice: if you're at work, it's not a good idea to type "Shannon Stewart" into Google and hit the "I'm feeling lucky" button.

[John Galt]

Originally posted by bbor
The Minny GM came on to Toronto radio after the deal(sorry i forget his name)

He basically explained the trade like this..The team was slumping and he needed to do something to jump start the team....Kielty is a guy they did'nt wanna give up...but as everyone mentioned they have a glut of OF and can stand to lose 2(kielty and Stewart at the end of the season)It was purely a shake up move.The Jays HAD to pay Kielty's salary he said or else the deal would never have been made.

I heard the shakeup explanation, but to me that is reason for making a different trade. Trading for an upgrade at 2B, SS, or for a starting pitcher would have shaken things up while not replacing one OF for another one.

[Ksyrup]

Either that, or he's admitting that the trade was not an upgrade, as much as it was an attempt to bring the team to life. Obviously, the latter would be based on the idea of "chemistry" rather than any kind of statistical analysis.

Between that rationale and the idea that they needed to have a leadoff guy with speed, it appears that the Twins are wed to the old way of thinking.

[daedalus]

Originally posted by Ksyrup
I think John Galt and I are on the same page here!Damn lawyers. :)

[daedalus]

If they weren't before, I would imagine that Stewart's ABs hit streaks and recent success probably helped them warm up to him.

Around 1998, it really seemed like Stewart was developing a great leadoff hitter as he started walking a fair bit. It seemed like he concentrated more on trying to hit for power after that year. Kinda sad since I really like watching leadoff hitters work but it's hard to blame the guy since slugging percentages are where the money is at.

I don't see the Twins play a lot but are Rivas and Guzman really that bad? I thought they were suppose to be pretty good offensively? 2B is kind of a tough market now with Alomar traded,Florida not dealing and San Diego not being able to deal Loretta for bad publicity (of course, I like Loretta as a player so I think it's a good move anyway). Anyone else out there?