losing first names in save game

[andallthatjazz]

ok, so last night i asked how to properly save the game back and forth from my friend and i. well, we figured it out, but now run into a new problem.

we ran a few tests, and after he creates a game and sends it to me, all is well, then i do a trade, send it to him, all is still well. however, when he makes his move and sends me the save file, about half the players first names are missing!! i can go an add the names, save and send, and he gets the names i changed, but when he sends it back, i lose the names AGAIN!

the other situation we tried was me creating first, and sending to him. That works fine. Then he does a move and sends back to me, AGAIN, i lose names.

Whats the deal...any help or ideas this time?

[Draft Dodger]

are you both using a properly licensed copy of the game?

[andallthatjazz]

i have the original disk yes. i visited him awhile back and installed the game on his computer also with my information.

we thought this might be the problem, but it makes no sense because nothing gets sent over the net as to licensing of this game, unlike TCY or other games. he isnt losing names either, only me.

[Buzzbee]

I can think of a few things that might be causing the problems, but I'm not going to share them with you. If both of you plan to play the game, then both of you should buy the game.

It seems innocent enough. You paid for the game and want to go head to head against a buddy. So just install it on his PC and away you go. Hell, I'd be tempted to do the same. However, both of you really should purchase the game.

I'm not trying to be a jerk. Just being honest.

[Bee]

Edit:

Didn't catch that he was using the same license on both computers Buzzbee. I'll revise my post as well.

[andallthatjazz]

Originally posted by Buzzbee
I can think of a few things that might be causing the problems, but I'm not going to share them with you. If both of you plan to play the game, then both of you should buy the game.

It seems innocent enough. You paid for the game and want to go head to head against a buddy. So just install it on his PC and away you go. Hell, I'd be tempted to do the same. However, both of you really should purchase the game.

I'm not trying to be a jerk. Just being honest.

you arent being a jerk. we thought this might be the problem, but i still dont understand why. many many games can be used off of one cd and i didnt realize this would work the same as a game such as TCY or TDCB or any of the other games that actually go online and license the game.

and anyway, fof comes with a serial, not a license. much like many other programs, as long as you have the serial, you can run the product just fine.
so i dont think its really an issue of being honest or being tempted to do anything, because im sure many have done it. thanks for the help anyways.

[Draft Dodger]

well, I do know that some pretty weird stuff will happen if the serial number (order number...whatever) isn't put in correctly - similar to the kinds of errors you mentioned.

I'm not saying for sure that's the case...but it certainly wouldn't surprise me.

[Buzzbee]

Just because you CAN, doesn't mean that you SHOULD. Yes, there are probably a lot of people who have done it. That doesn't make it right, or make it ok for you to do it. I guess its just that I consider it to be stealing, or software piracy. Your buddy is using a copy of the game that he didn't pay for. I have a problem with that (not a problem with you, though).

[sabotai]

"I guess its just that I consider it to be...software piracy."

ding ding ding!

[mrskippy]

Hypocrites.

Don't any of you share music on Kazaa?

[Buzzbee]

Originally posted by mrskippy
Hypocrites.

Don't any of you share music on Kazaa?

Nope.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally posted by mrskippy
Hypocrites.

Don't any of you share music on Kazaa?

and that's relative how?

[The Afoci]

Originally posted by Draft Dodger
and that's relative how?

I assume because technically both are illegal.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally posted by The Afoci
I assume because technically both are illegal.

so is speeding. and, in some states, sodomy. murder is also illegal. just because I do one, doesn't mean I'm a hypocrite for speaking out against another.

[Buzzbee]

DD - I have to agree with the Afoci here. Yes, speeding and murder are illegal, and speaking out against murder while speeding wouldn't be hypocritical. However, trying to make a distinction between pirating software and pirating music is about like trying to distinguish between speeding in Arizona and speeding in California. It's still speeding.

And the fact that you are taking a file that you have paid for and sharing it with others who haven't paid for it makes this eerily similar to software piracy.

Just calling it like I see it.

[andallthatjazz]

lets not argue about piracy, speeding, murder andallthatjazz now...

my error! i didnt want a simple question as to why i was losing names to lead into an argument about other stuff.

we already figured this might be the case. now dont get the fof police after me.

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by Draft Dodger
so is speeding. and, in some states, sodomy. murder is also illegal. just because I do one, doesn't mean I'm a hypocrite for speaking out against another.

Exactly. I mean, if I'm driving at a high rate of speed while my wife blows me, and I just happen to veer off the road and hit a hitchhiker, that doesn't mean I can't speak out against the evils of software piracy.

[Solecismic]

I don't want this to turn into a huge argument, but, yes, I consider the above example stealing.

Sharing a license code intended for one person is illegal, and violates the terms in the license agreement that's electronically signed when installing the game.

I look the other way in a couple of cases - two people living in the same household, or someone who installs it on his main computer, but also likes to play it on his laptop. But when it's two households, you really should purchase another copy.

// begin soapbox

And, yes, I also consider sharing copyrighted music on Kazaa stealing, and I've never done it, nor will I let my son do it when he's old enough to torture me with Eminem or whoever his anti-establishment successor might be.

Some justify music-swapping as okay, because it usually only rips off large corporations. Who cares if they lose 10 percent of their profit? Well, a lot of that 10 percent will come out of the money they spend gambling on new and unusual bands. It sure as heck won't come out of the year-end bonus to the executives. So, the main victims are garage bands struggling for a break.

//end soapbox

I don't think music-swapping or sharing a license with a friend makes anyone a bad person. Perhaps just a little unaware of how hard it is to make a living selling intellectual property.

[Buzzbee]

Originally posted by andallthatjazz
my error! i didnt want a simple question as to why i was losing names to lead into an argument about other stuff.

Don't fret it. This is par for the course at FOFC.

Average life span of an on topic post...about 6 replies. After that it will eventually degrade to sex, drugs, trolling, or collossal _________ (fill in the blank).

[Buzzbee]

Dola -

My next suggestion would be:

Once your buddy buys the game, contact Jim or Ethan at Solecismic and I'm confident they'd be happy to 'splain how to share your saved games without issue.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally posted by Solecismic
I don't want this to turn into a huge argument, but, yes, I consider the above example stealing.


so do I.

I just don't think it's the same thing as downloading music from Kazaa (I think software piracy is much more sever than that music downloading).

[Draft Dodger]

Originally posted by Buzzbee
Dola -

My next suggestion would be:

Once your buddy buys the game, contact Jim or Ethan at Solecismic and I'm confident they'd be happy to 'splain how to share your saved games without issue.

who is Ethan? what did I miss?

[sabotai]

"So, the main victims are garage bands struggling for a break."

The irony is that the garage bands struggling for a break are generally people who openly support music-sharing. They don't air time on the radio. They don't get ads on TV or in stores. So music-sharing is basically the only way they have to get their music out there and create a buzz. And they realize that and support it.

[Ben E Lou]

Whoa. I missed this thread. I've said it before. Looking for help with software piracy is an automatic banning.

[Solecismic]

Yes, it is ironic. A rather cut-throat struggle for increasingly limited development dollars.

I guess that's a good decision for bands if and only if internet buzz is something promoters care about. Does it even exist to a significant extent in the music world? I thought bands were discovered by playing the club scene.

It sometimes works that way in the software world - those PopCap games being a good example.

But for a niche product like mine, it would be professional suicide.

[Masked]

Originally posted by Draft Dodger
who is Ethan? what did I miss?

Child labor laws in New Hampshire are very loose.

[mrskippy]

Nice job SkyDog. I don't think he was being deceptive. Rather than climb over the guy, give him the steps he needs to buy a copy of the game. That's a much more productive measure.

Also, here's an idea for Jim and something that I'm starting to see a lot, especially with MMORPGs. What the software companies do now is allow you to share the software itself. Rather than buy a second copy for your other computer or more importantly for a friend, you can now buy a second serial number/software license.

This is something that the business software industry has done for years, whereas companies will be one physical copy of Micrsoft Windows, Microsoft Office, Photoshop, Quark or whatever. But they buy additional licenses for each computer. At my former employer, when they went through and built new PCs, they went through and put the Microsoft Windows sticker at each terminal. They were on a sticker sheet. When they have to reinstall, they often will reinstall from a CD-R (the original is kept under lock and key). And it's all within the license agreement.

Also, perhaps it's time that Jim made the game available by eLicense. BTW, eLicense is supposed to be capable of doing the above -- selling multiple licenses in one transaction.

As for this particular user who posted above, here's hoping he buys the game. Once he does, he should be let back onto this forum. And he should be given help with his problem. And if the problem still exists ...

Skippy

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by mrskippy
....Rather than climb over the guy, give him the steps he needs to buy a copy of the game....

As for this particular user who posted above, here's hoping he buys the game. Once he does, he should be let back onto this forum. And he should be given help with his problem. And if the problem still exists ...Did you even read his post????????????

He has the game. He bought the game. He installed it on his friend's computer. He knows how to buy the game.

[DolphinFan1]

Originally posted by Solecismic
I don't want this to turn into a huge argument, but, yes, I consider the above example stealing.

Sharing a license code intended for one person is illegal, and violates the terms in the license agreement that's electronically signed when installing the game.

I look the other way in a couple of cases - two people living in the same household, or someone who installs it on his main computer, but also likes to play it on his laptop. But when it's two households, you really should purchase another copy.

// begin soapbox

And, yes, I also consider sharing copyrighted music on Kazaa stealing, and I've never done it, nor will I let my son do it when he's old enough to torture me with Eminem or whoever his anti-establishment successor might be.

Some justify music-swapping as okay, because it usually only rips off large corporations. Who cares if they lose 10 percent of their profit? Well, a lot of that 10 percent will come out of the money they spend gambling on new and unusual bands. It sure as heck won't come out of the year-end bonus to the executives. So, the main victims are garage bands struggling for a break.

//end soapbox

I don't think music-swapping or sharing a license with a friend makes anyone a bad person. Perhaps just a little unaware of how hard it is to make a living selling intellectual property.

I agree, but when I tried to buy 2 extra games of FOF I was told that I could only buy one. I wanted to give my brother and a friend a Christmas present when it came out. I would have paid for 3 legally. Note: I did not give my brother or my friend a copy. I just told them that I couldn't buy more than one. I do things legally. It does create problems though when an honest person wants to do it right and is told he can't. :confused:

[mrskippy]

He has the game. He bought the game. He installed it on his friend's computer. He knows how to buy the game.

I know that, just being sarcastic. :D Geesh!!!

Rather than let this evolve into an ethics test, someone simply could have said, "Go buy the game. Once you have done so, feel free to reask your question."

As for what this guy did, I'd venture to guess that each of us has done this at least once in our lives.

And Jim does need to make license acquisition easier and make it possible to buy a secondary license. If Microsoft and Adobe can do it for a $500 piece of software, I think Jim could do this for his games. He doesn't have to discount.

Otherwise, make it an eLicense download. I mean look at what Softwrap (an eLicense rival) has done with OOTP. You can download OOTP from the legal-section in Kazaa, try and buy. Simple. Same goes for CM 01/02. You also can download these from the Web. Trygames.com has Season Ticket Baseball and Season Ticket Basketball using the same method. ESD is the wave of the future, not CD.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally posted by DolphinFan1
I agree, but when I tried to buy 2 extra games of FOF I was told that I could only buy one. I wanted to give my brother and a friend a Christmas present when it came out. I would have paid for 3 legally. Note: I did not give my brother or my friend a copy. I just told them that I couldn't buy more than one. I do things legally. It does create problems though when an honest person wants to do it right and is told he can't. :confused:

that's really bizarre. I'm surprised by that.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by mrskippy
Rather than let this evolve into an ethics test, someone simply could have said, "Go buy the game. Once you have done so, feel free to reask your question."Why would they have said this, since clearly he said he already had bought the game???

[mrskippy]

Originally posted by DolphinFan1
I agree, but when I tried to buy 2 extra games of FOF I was told that I could only buy one. I wanted to give my brother and a friend a Christmas present when it came out. I would have paid for 3 legally. Note: I did not give my brother or my friend a copy. I just told them that I couldn't buy more than one. I do things legally. It does create problems though when an honest person wants to do it right and is told he can't. :confused:


Ding ding ding. This is exactly what I'm talking about.

When you have these restrictions in place, you can assuredly expect piracy. Almost everybody selling software on the Web allows you to buy more than one. And most will even offer a discount once you start getting into the 5, 10 or 20 copy range.

[mrskippy]

Originally posted by SkyDog
Why would they have said this, since clearly he said he already had bought the game???

OK make that -- "Have your friend go buy the game ... yada, yada, yada."

[Draft Dodger]

anyone have any idea what Skippy is talking about?

[Draft Dodger]

SkyDog - I thought you were kidding about banning that guy; isn't that action a wee bit harsh?

[mrskippy]

I was going to post this to the friend's thread, but SkyDog closed it before I could.

Here is my response and what should have been said it the first place, rather than getting on this guy's ass and calling him a thief. Remember, I know for a fact that many on here download from Kazaa (from earlier threads regarding legal download services) and I know that many of you've probably shared a copy of a computer game. So while you point one finger, there are three pointing back.

Anyway ... my response:

I understand that your motives were to see if it would work, but the problem is that you struck a nerve when it came to software piracy. I believe you weren't intending to steal the game.

Here's my solution:

1 - Buy the game
2 - If you continue to have problems, come back here and repost the question. I think that most members of this community would be glad to help once you own a legal copy
3 - At the same time e-mail support AT solecismic.com, because Jim's a great man and would be glad to help ... but only if you own your own copy
4 - If all else fails and your still not happy, I think that Jim would be more than willing to offer you a refund

To put it another way, if you do this with a copy of a commercial product, you do not get support from the developer. If you own a pirated copy of MS Windows and it craps out your computer, it's your loss. Obviously if it works, great, but than you still stole it.

Point is, own the game before askign for support. Once you own it, we'd all be more than willing to help. Good luck.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by Draft Dodger
SkyDog - I thought you were kidding about banning that guy; isn't that action a wee bit harsh? I have a strict policy regarding gaming piracy.

[The Afoci]

Originally posted by SkyDog
I have a strict policy regarding piracy.

Bucc seems nice to me though.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally posted by SkyDog
I have a strict policy regarding gaming piracy.

you used to have a pretty liberal warning policy too.

obviously, I don't make the rules. just surprised to see him get such a quick boot

[DolphinFan1]

Originally posted by Draft Dodger
that's really bizarre. I'm surprised by that.

Well, I sent Jim an e-mail about it and he told me it was company policy. Yes, my brother and friend could have bought the game, but I wanted to surprise them with Christmas presents. I was a little discouraged with the whole episode.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by Draft Dodger
you used to have a pretty liberal warning policy too.

obviously, I don't make the rules. just surprised to see him get such a quick boot Actually I referenced this earlier. There have been maybe 5-10 others banned for piracy-oriented issues since I've been at the helm. Usually I catch the thread early on, delete the thread, and delete the user so that no one ever sees. I do it that way so that anyone who might be inclined to help out never gets an e-mail address for the person.

[mrskippy]

Originally posted by SkyDog
I have a strict policy regarding gaming piracy.

Just gaming piracy?

Anyone have a copy of Photoshop they wanna give me? :D J/K

All piracy is wrong!!! SkyDog look back at the threads about BuyMusic.com, the new Napster, and legal music download services.

Candy bars are only 50 cents. And damn Hershey, they make enough money already. And look, it's easy to steal. Just slip it in my pocket. But how many of you would really do this?

Also, look at music downloading another way. They sell singles of popular songs at Wal-Mart, Target, Kmart, record stores, etc. What's the difference between downloading that and stealing that from the store shelf?

And none of this "try before I buy" bull shit. Because, acordoing to the person who started this thread that is what he and his friend were trying to see.

[Schmidty]

I agree that a warning would have been a better approach.

I think the point should be to stop piracy, and educate people who might want to steal games, not to simply make them bitter. I think that instantly banning people without warning for even mentioning something fishy will only anger them, and make them more likely to pirate games.

Just my opinion.

[mrskippy]

Originally posted by DolphinFan1
Well, I sent Jim an e-mail about it and he told me it was company policy. Yes, my brother and friend could have bought the game, but I wanted to surprise them with Christmas presents. I was a little discouraged with the whole episode.

Not to Jim:

FOF makes an excellent gift!!!

Two ways to do it:

-- Sell gift certificates for your Web store
-- Sell the game eLicense. As I believe they have a gift system
-- Sell the game as normal, but add a gift option.
-- And if you do number four, you can do what Amazon, Buy.com and others do. Offer gift wrapping and put the wife to work. :D

[mrskippy]

Originally posted by Schmidty
and make them more likely to pirate games.

Or buy the competitor's game as was mentioned in the other thread the SD closed.

One thing Jim must remember is that after Oct. 31, he will have a legitimate and formidable competitor in the text-based football genre. Up until now, he's had the market cornered.

And from the sound of things, Arlie is creating one helluva game.

Best of all, it'll be eLicense ... instant gratification.

[The Afoci]

I hate eLicesnse, but that may just be me.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally posted by SkyDog
Actually I referenced this earlier. There have been maybe 5-10 others banned for piracy-oriented issues since I've been at the helm. Usually I catch the thread early on, delete the thread, and delete the user so that no one ever sees. I do it that way so that anyone who might be inclined to help out never gets an e-mail address for the person.

see - that's what I'm saying.

I had no idea there was a policy against mentioning gaming piracy here - and I've been here forever. if threads/posts disappear quietly, how do we know it's not allowed.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by Draft Dodger
see - that's what I'm saying.

I had no idea there was a policy against mentioning gaming piracy here - and I've been here forever. if threads/posts disappear quietly, how do we know it's not allowed. I've mentioned it several times.

[mrskippy]

But again SkyDog, I think I posted a more fair solution, rather than just getting over someone's ass.

Now more than ever, as TPF approaches, it's important not to piss off a customer or in the case of this guy's friend, a potential customer. As they'll just go buy the other game, and rightly so. Especially since that other game will be multiplayer.

Cut the above poster some slack.

Perhaps Jim can make the guy a deal that if the game doesn't work and do what he's hoping to do that he can get a refund. Fair enough?

I don't think this guy was trying to pirate the software purposefully. After all ... he does have a purchased copy!!! Most true software pirates, would have a pirated copy already. That's how it works and it trickles down.

Cut him some slack.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally posted by SkyDog
I've mentioned it several times.

I'm not saying you haven't. I'm saying that if I haven't seen it, and I'm here quite a bit, maybe it's unfair to ban someone else without warning...especially when we are talking about an episode where some people might argue as to whether it really was piracy or not.

honestly, I'm not trying to belabor this (although it does give Skippy more opportunities to talk gibberish out of both sides of his mouth - sorry).

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by Draft Dodger
honestly, I'm not trying to belabor this (although it does give Skippy more opportunities to talk gibberish out of both sides of his mouth - sorry). I don't sense you belaboring it.

...and with regards to Skippy, here's a (perhaps) little-known fact: a large number (maybe even a majority) of suspensions at FOFC have been the result of a thread that the suspendee neither started, nor was the thread about the suspendee. Typically someone jumps in over-agressively, won't drop it, and goes over the line.

[thirdandlong]

This was intended for the now closed piracy thread

I am not advocating piracy at all, in fact I am dead set against said acts. I think banning the individual was a bit drastic given the tone of the post requesting for help. I mean after all it looks like it was, at the most, a case of attempted piracy. At the least it was a guy installing the game on a friend's computer to see if they could viably play against each other.

If the response to the thread had been to say "Hey It sounds like one of you is using an unlicensed copy. If you buy the game it should work fine.", it sounds like this guy would have likely bought the game. Instead the allthatjazz guy, who I think has been active in the community here, at least recently, is banned without a second thought.

Again I am not condoning piracy. I even applaud communities like this that consider posts actively advertising or flaunting software piracy a bannable offense. In this case I think it was an over reaction, I read the guys post, and didn't feel he was trying to pirate anything.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by Draft Dodger
maybe it's unfair to ban someone else without warning...especially when we are talking about an episode where some people might argue as to whether it really was piracy or not.I agree that some people might argue it. Know that if it had been someone who had earned the benefit of the doubt, they would have been given it in this situation. Most of the time it is much more cut and dried. ("d00dz, I need a registration code 4 TCY! Can u help me out.")

[Draft Dodger]

Originally posted by SkyDog
...and with regards to Skippy, here's a (perhaps) little-known fact: a large number (maybe even a majority) of suspensions at FOFC have been the result of a thread that the suspendee neither started, nor was the thread about the suspendee. Typically someone jumps in over-agressively, won't drop it, and goes over the line.

hmmmm....

subtle.
:)

well, I think I've said all I need to say here.

[mrskippy]

So if I buy the guy the game for the friend, you'll unban the other friend and help them right?

Oh wait, I can't buy the guy the game because Jim won't let me buy the second copy or buy a copy for someone else. :D

Seriously though, the guy owns a legit copy of the game. Most software pirates don't. Usually they already have a pirated copy. Had this guy owned an already pirated game, I could justify banning. But he already owns a legit copy and he was simply trying to see if he could do something before buying a second copy. Seems OK to me, given that the game does allow for a trial and that Jim doesn't allow refunds.

[Buzzbee]

Hey Skippy, do you have me on ignore? I agree with you, but you agreed with me before I agreed with you.

My 1st post (4th post in the thread) said:

Originally posted by Buzzbee
I can think of a few things that might be causing the problems, but I'm not going to share them with you. If both of you plan to play the game, then both of you should buy the game.

It seems innocent enough. You paid for the game and want to go head to head against a buddy. So just install it on his PC and away you go. Hell, I'd be tempted to do the same. However, both of you really should purchase the game.

I'm not trying to be a jerk. Just being honest.

And my 2nd post (8th in the thread):

Originally posted by Buzzbee
Just because you CAN, doesn't mean that you SHOULD. Yes, there are probably a lot of people who have done it. That doesn't make it right, or make it ok for you to do it. I guess its just that I consider it to be stealing, or software piracy. Your buddy is using a copy of the game that he didn't pay for. I have a problem with that (not a problem with you, though).


And my 6th post (after being sidetracked a little):

Originally posted by Buzzbee
Dola -

My next suggestion would be:

Once your buddy buys the game, contact Jim or Ethan at Solecismic and I'm confident they'd be happy to 'splain how to share your saved games without issue.

So, I didn't put it quite as eloquently as you, or in one post, but I think it's pretty straightforward.

For the ONE time that we actually agree, please give me a "little" bit of credit. ;)

[hollmt]

ill probably get banned again for this...but oh well.
this is andallthatjazz, and i had to find an old id that i had and lost the password.

nobody has been a jerk to me, rather you have explained what my friend and i already assumed when we were having these problems last night.

neither of us were trying to pirate anything, rather trying to figure out how to operate what we wanted done before he bought the new game.

i realize piracy is illegal and understand the consequences. we in no way were trying to rip off jim, and in no way was i asking for any help from any of you in software piracy help as i was accused of. i was simply asking for help in that problem from my original post..which happened to be related to the licensing issue...my fault!!!!

again, thanks for the help or confirmation of what we already assumed was the problem from those that helped. also, thanks for the support some of you have given..i in no way want you banned for defending me or my friend as that sometimes seems to be the issue at these boards. i would probably recommend not defending me.

[Buzzbee]

Dola - To SkyDog:

I am the one who originally called him out. So I obviously am against him installing it on a buddy's computer. However, I strongly disagree with such a quick ban.

BY ALL MEANS, if he had come here like most do and post the ol'

"Hey, I lost my registration number. Anybody got one I can have?"

then absolutely ban him without a second thought.

BUt Jazz has a legal copy of the game and wasn't trying to bum a number. Yes, what he was doing was wrong and I don't condone it (obviously). I can understand your point about not wanting his email address to be available, but still feel you pulled the plug too quickly.

If I recall, Jazz had 20 or so posts. He may have lurked here since the dawn of time. Then again, he may not have and may not be aware of your policy. I think a strong warning would have been appropriate.

I know you are the mod and what you say goes, but I did want to share my feelings so that perhaps the future might lead to a little less pressure on the trigger. Also to toss in my support for sending Jazz an email explaining why he was banned and offering him a conditional return to the board.

[DolphinFan1]

Originally posted by mrskippy
So if I buy the guy the game for the friend, you'll unban the other friend and help them right?

Oh wait, I can't buy the guy the game because Jim won't let me buy the second copy or buy a copy for someone else. :D

.

Right on mrskippy.

[mrskippy]

Hey Buzzbee ... yeah, right on. You get credit too.

My posts were aimed at SD, who should've given the warning, said the same stuff you and I said, than moved on.

If ATJ continued to ask for help, than ban him. Otherwise, let him get the game.

From the appearance of things, SD actually deleted ATJ's account.

My feeling about FOFC is that even though this isn't the official forum by any means, it is the closest associated forum to the game. As such, what happens here is an important reflection onto the game and potential customers.

[Marmel]

I think that banning was bullshit.

Skydog, of course, could do whatever he wants. I think there is a fine line between a Warez guy coming around looking for ID's or help ripping a copy, but this was a different situation.

Oh well.

[clintl]

That was a terrible decision, SkyDog, and it's a terrible policy, too. Issue a warning first. If the person persists, then ban him. The members on this board have shown repeatedly that they won't tolerate someone here to pirate the game, so it's extremely unlikely they will get what they're looking for here, anyway. And nobody who isn't a regular is going to know the policy, so it has zero deterrent value.

[CrashDavisSports]

The guy from Ohio that the original poster was talking about his friend.

Please read for full story......


http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12742

[CrashDavisSports]

I guess all I wanted to say was, we were not trying to steal anything, just test to see if something works ahead of time before I pay cash for something (AGAIN) and find out it doesn't do what I want it to.

In no way were we going to keep it liek that. I am a previous owner of FOF 2, and lost my copy due to a computer virus, and didn't get another download or license, so in essence, I got screwed. I think I deserved the right to see if transferring saves through email was going to work between me and my friend, before I get screwed out of more money by Solecismic Software.

I have no problem paying top dollar for games that work, and provide service to them. Solecismic never proved to me they provide service, so I wanted to make sure it worked, before they screw me again.

[Schmidty]

Originally posted by CrashDavisSports
I guess all I wanted to say was, we were not trying to steal anything, just test to see if something works ahead of time before I pay cash for something (AGAIN) and find out it doesn't do what I want it to.


Although I don't agree with the banning, the excuse you gave above is a poor one. If you wanted to see if you liked the game, there is a demo readily available at www.solecismic.com . That would have been a much better way to go about things.

[Solecismic]

Dolphin,

I've had a few people try and become resellers, and because of the way the license is handled, I don't issue multiple licenses without knowing each recipient.

In all of the other gift cases, the customer has read the policy, emailed me beforehand, and everything has gone very smoothly.

The copy protection is something I whipped up, and is by no means as sophisticated as what Softwrap or eLicense use. One person publishing a serial number on the net could cause serious damage. I know I lose a couple of sales here and there by insisting on knowing the name of each recipient, but given that 40% of all entertainment software in America alone is pirated, it seems like a wise decision.

Ideally, I'd like to have resellers, but that's more easily said than done. I naively released FOF1 with only a speck of protection, and it was cracked and advertised within weeks.


Now that downloadable, eLicense-style software is more accepted, I'll likely release future games in that manner unless I can find a publisher. I've been quite happy with how eLicense has worked for TCY customers since November of 2001. It offers a flexibility I can't offer on my own.


Someone mentioned the FOF2 licensing problem. Again, please email support at elicense.com if Digital River gave you the shaft. They will help you.

In the meantime, I'm proud to announce that skippy has just been named my director of customer relations.

jazz, I don't think you should have been banned. I believe SkyDog has done a good job moderating the forum, however, and I know that if this is discussed in an open and calm manner, the policy will probably change to reflect cases like this.

[mrskippy]

Someone post the contact information for ViaTech. What CrashDavisSports lost was his eLicense. I believe they can help him. If not, well, hopefully there is some recourse.

As for the demo, doubtful it'd let him test out the quasi-multiplayer thing he was doing, sending league files back and fourth. The demo is too limited and what Jim needs to do is use ViaTech's demo wrap, that would make it impossible to hack but allow you to get full use of the game.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally posted by Solecismic
In the meantime, I'm proud to announce that skippy has just been named my director of customer relations.


wasn't it more lucrative to just let EA bury FOF for you?

:D

[mrskippy]

Jim,

Glad to hear future releases will go eLicense. Remember eLicense isn't Digital River.

For the record, everytime I've had a computer problem, I've usually got a response from ViaTech within hours, sometimes at odd times of the day and night.

Heck, they give me the order information for games I forgot I'd purchased. :D Amazing!!! Really, they're a great company. With the ability to wrap demo software, you can experience more of the game in a fair amount of time before you buy.

As for Digital River. I still deal with them everytime I buy a new version of Norton Internet Security/Antivirus. I always opt for ESD. The one time I had a problem was when I bought through Amazon, rather than Symantec. But even in that case Amazon was more than helpful.

I recently had to reinstall my Norton because it started making my computer TOO secure and made things like RealPlayer stop running. The fine folks at Digital River found my order and had me up and running in minutes.

Of course, I still like my idea of the Solecismic Store Gift Certifacte.

[mrskippy]

Originally posted by Draft Dodger
wasn't it more lucrative to just let EA bury FOF for you?

:D

Heck, what Jim needed to do was go kick Larry Probst in the balls for how EA treated him.

Put FOF on the shelf at EB and watch it fly from the shelves. I don't know how many owner mode rocks threads I've seen across the Internet the past two days in regards to Madden.

Amazing to think that FOF was once supposed to be bundled with Madden. Now it is part of Madden, except Jim gets no credit.

Bastards!!!

[CrashDavisSports]

That is exactly what I was saying Skippy. I had played the demo, no problem there. It was just the transferring of league files online. That is the only thing I wanted to test.

I didn't give any kind of poor excuse, I gave an honest excuse.

Solecismic, if Digital River was the one screwing me, then I appologize for my remarks.

I have no idea how to retrieve the old version now. New company, no records, obviously no disk since it was an online thing, which there is no longer any support for.

I am just out a game. Way it goes. All I wanted to do was test the online transfer feature before I bought again.

I know how hard it is to run a small business, i have been doing it for 5 years, and people steal my content on my website for theirs all the time. So I understand where you are coming from.

All I am saying, we were not trying to screw anyone, just test the online feature first. I would have bought the game. Second, my friend should not have been banned, he wasn't asking for someone to help him pirate a game, just information on why something wasn't or wouldn't work.

We figured it was a copyright lock in the game, which is fine. I just needed to know that so we didn't have to go any further.

PS...If I buy this game, is my money back guaranteed IF the online feature doesn't work? Or am I just screwed out of my money? I have no interest of playing it by myself.

[sabotai]

"PS...If I buy this game, is my money back guaranteed IF the online feature doesn't work? Or am I just screwed out of my money? I have no interest of playing it by myself."

The game was never really intended to this sort of thing. So I wouldn't call it a "feature" and there's no guarentee that you'll get it working all of the time.

[Solecismic]

Digital River sold FOF2 through download. They licensed the eLicense technology from ViaTech, then decided not to support old licenses once their initial agreement with EA was over.

ViaTech, when they heard about this, decided to take over that support. After all, it is their technology, and once they had a customer support staff in place, they felt it was in their best interest to keep people happy about it.

I believe if you email them with your name and address, and perhaps the email you used when ordering the game, they can still help you out. The download for the game is around somewhere - I don't have it because it was an EA product.

There is no online feature in FOF4. You can share universe folders, and there's a note in the FAQ on how to avoid that corrupting an installation. The key is not overwriting the universe folder itself, just replace its contents. And always send data files in binary format. I don't normally make guarantees because of the demo, but this seems like a case where an exception is warranted. Just give Ethan a chance to provide customer service first - maybe have your friend create a backup universe directory in his installation and practice moving the files back and forth.


Skippy - is FOF really in Madden now? How in the world could they pull that off - our data formats are like apples and oranges? I have discussed new options, including gift certificates, with ViaTech. I hope to make some changes along this road in the future, because they're constantly coming up with interesting new features.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally posted by Solecismic

Skippy - is FOF really in Madden now? How in the world could they pull that off - our data formats are like apples and oranges?

Skippy is full of it.

[mckerney]

Originally posted by Solecismic
Skippy - is FOF really in Madden now? How in the world could they pull that off - our data formats are like apples and oranges? I have discussed new options, including gift certificates, with ViaTech. I hope to make some changes along this road in the future, because they're constantly coming up with interesting new features.

I wouldn't say FOF is in Madden, but that they borrowed pretty much most of the owner mode. The City data is practically the same, contracts system in a stripped down version of FOF. Setting ticket prices is very similar, and stadium construction is kind of. While they did add some of their own things, though the owner mode definately has a FOF feel to it.

[CrashDavisSports]

Email I used to order t he game?

There is no way that was years ago! Plus, the reason I don't have it to start with is because of a virus. Everything got wiped out.

I am just out a game. Way it goes. Maybe your next version of FOF (5), you can make a feature that allows people to transfer files online to play together on the game for those (that both own the game) so one guy can be the offensive coach and then the other the defensive coach.

Create some kind of online back and forth feature so you don't have to pack and go zip files to transfer data. Pain in the buttocks.

Thanks for the input though.

[The Afoci]

I know it don't matter, but I would have banned him too. I would ban him again for using a second account to come back on. I would probably ban CrashDavisSports too. He gives me a funny feeling. I would probably clear a few others out too, just to keep people on edge.

But the excuse is retard, there is a demo for the product. The guy claims anger at the company for screwing him before, so now this time he is going to just test it first, then see if it is okay to buy. Yep, and I was going to return the lunchables after I looked them over real good. To me it seems simple. Kid A likes the game. Kid B had bought the game felt screwed by it. Kid A says hey I think I can install it on yours too. Kid B says great. They try it, its screwed up, they come for help, everything backfires. They think of an excuse that has no logic. Yep, I bought this Honda once and it was a lemon, so I went to the dealership to steal/I mean test one and was going to return/buy once I made my decision on how good it is. That would probably be okay for other computer games too. Just take them off the self and try them, hell why not. It isn't like Jim is trying to make any money at all, all he wants to do is please some dumbass who is trying to steal his work.

I think I would also ban that...

[mrskippy]

I'm not saying FOF has been copied exactly to Madden. But the whole element of building your stadium, setting ticket prices, and stuff like that seems like it came straight out of FOF. And like mckerney said, the city data too. Just seems fishy, given FOF's one-time relationship with Madden and how the whole concept has evolved the past two or three versions of the game.

Crash -- You just need your name, address, phone number you had when you bought the game. I've changed e-mail, forgot what I used, etc. and they were more than willing to help. Downloading might be a problem, might not. I'm sure someone out there has the file posted, since you needed the license for that file to work anyway.

Jim -- Hope you can work magic with ViaTech. These guys are great and I'm a staunch supporter of the ESD concept. So much easier than dealing with a boxed game or the mail. So long as it's supported, which ViaTech does a great job of, I'm all for it.

Afoci -- I think we established they couldn't do the file transfer thing with the demo, due to its limitations. Give the guy the benefit of the doubt he was going to buy it and go from there. Sounds like Jim is willing to make an exception for a refund too. Let's give everyone a second chance and not create any division.

That would probably be okay for other computer games too. Just take them off the self and try them, hell why not. It isn't like Jim is trying to make any money at all, all he wants to do is please some dumbass who is trying to steal his work.

The GameStop family (GameStop, Software Etc., Funcoland, Babbage's) used to (they still might) return any opened game within seven days of purchase for a total refudn -- no questions asked. I don't think they do for PC games anymore, but they do for consoles. Even with PC games, they only let you do it once or twice and than they start raising red flags. They understand some games may not work, do what people were hoping, or just plain suck.

Fry's used to be the same way. They had a no questions asked return policy on everything, including PC games. If the game was too easy and you beat it too fast, they'd let you return it. But they only allowed you to do it once or twice before catching on.

To this day, many software companies have a return policy (including EA) on their products. If you don't like it you can send it to the software company, with the receipt, for a complete refund -- no questions asked (or at least a simple what didn't you like?).

The local GameCrazy (the one's inside Hollywood Video) will let you playtest any game they carry before you buy it.

[korme]

Unfortunately, the name thirdandlong seems to not have been banned, but deleted, so you can't recover his name. Too bad, I think it was too quick to jump the gun like that.

[thirdandlong]

Originally posted by Shorty3281
Unfortunately, the name thirdandlong seems to not have been banned, but deleted, so you can't recover his name. Too bad, I think it was too quick to jump the gun like that.

My name has been What'd?

Oh and while I think the ban was laid down prematurely, seemingly a concensus opinion, I dont' think this Crash Davis Fellow is helping any.

[mrskippy]

I think he meant allthatjazz

I don't think the Crash Davis guy is hurting the cause. He does bring up some valid points. He and all that jazz are sincere. They're not trying to rip Jim off. And I think that is the key.

ATJ owns FOF 4 and Crash owns FOF 2 (though he is having trouble with license restoration). The fact that they've purchased the games is a sign they aren't into software piracy or are trying to get a freebie.

Crash needs someone to restore his old license right away. It's only right. He is a customer. And that wouldn't sit well with me either.

Than Crash needs to buy FOF 4. But like Crash, if I was having a hard time getting support for a game I already owned (FOF 2) why would I want to go out and get support for a new version of that game from the same maker?

I think the ban was premature. Let's try to make things right SkyDog, not screw people over. Otherwise, I wouldn't blame either of them if they told Jim to screw off and went to buy TPF from Arlie.

Like I said, this board, how people are treated, etc. are a reflection on Solecismic, even if this isn't an official board or under his control. It is the primary discussion community for the game, the key place to get support from fellow FOFers, etc.

If I were banned forever, it wouldn't matter to me, because I'd still buy Jim's games and always will as long as he makes them. Though I'd be upset about not having a place to go for help, information, etc. And I wouldn't have a place to find out about the game, since Jim doesn't have a newsletter (hint, hint) or other way to announce his products -- I seldom visit Solecismic.com.

[korme]

thirdandlong got me mixed with allthatjazz. SPACE YOUR WORDS PEOPLE. :)

[mckerney]

Dont worry Shorty, it was just a physical error, not a mistake. That means you're STILL UNDEFEATED!!!!!!111

[Bee]

Originally posted by mrskippy
As for the demo, doubtful it'd let him test out the quasi-multiplayer thing he was doing, sending league files back and fourth. The demo is too limited and what Jim needs to do is use ViaTech's demo wrap, that would make it impossible to hack but allow you to get full use of the game.

It's not up to the customer to determine what the demo allows and what it doesn't. To me that's not a reasonable excuse for stealing the game and to be completely honest, I have serious doubts this was a factor to begin with since the "testing issue" only came out after they got slammed for stealing the game.

I think SkyDog should ban both of them and all their various log-in names if for nothing else than having us go through all these piracy arguments again.

[thirdandlong]

Originally posted by Bee
It's not up to the customer to determine what the demo allows and what it doesn't.

This is true....however I dont' think these two guys were trying to actually play the game without paying for it. Even in the first post to this thread the guy said they were testing the file transfer procedures. I don't believe they stole anything. Well they certainly didnt successfully steal anything. I don't think you can even say they tried to steal the game. I have owned written and sold software before. If one of my ex-customers had done what atj did, I would have absolutely zero trouble with it. If you scroll up a bit you would see that Jim himself didn't really have a problem with what they did.

When these guys were informed that their testing was being defeated with copy protection they didn't respond with "OK well can anyone give me a valid serial#?". Skydog didn't give them the chance to really go either way with it. A guy with a valid copy of the game was summarily banned for piracy. The premature banning spawned a good amount of bad feelings, and likely cost Solecismic a sale. I think SkyDog owes Jim $40.

[mrskippy]

Again, both of these guys own a copy of FOF. It's just that one owns FOF 2 and the other FOF 4. I don't think they were trying to be deceptive.

They weren't asking for a serial number, just why something doesn't work. And the question itself was legitimate, because I'm sure many of us would like to be able to send league files back and forth.

I think for jumping the gun, SkyDog owes CrashDavisSports a copy of FOF 4 and both he and allthatjazz an apology. He also owes it to allthatjazz to reinstate his account.

And someone from Viatech help Crash get his FOF 2 working.

[The Afoci]

SkyDog don't owe him nothing. For that I want a sandwich.

[Bee]

Just to clarify, here's his first post about the subject:


hey, anyone who can help would be much appreciated.
my friend and i are trying to play the same game of fof4.
after i create a game and universe, i try to send the file to him, but it wont let me just send the UNIVERSE folder. instead i have to send each extension by itself, which as of now is only 4, but eventually will be much larger. im doing something wrong i know, but dont know what. we both are running the C patch, and i would assume i could send him the universe so he can control his part of the game, then he would save, and send me the updated uiniverse and id do my part, and back and forth.

help me please! how do i do this?



There's no mention of testing to see if this is possible or to decide if his friend will purchase the game. He just says he and his friend are trying to play the game. That story only unfolded after he/they received criticism for having an illegal copy on one of the computers.

As far as Jim's opinion. I believe on the first page he said he considered this an example as stealing and above he said he didn't think the poster should have been banned. I don't think that really constitutes "Jim himself not really have a problem with what they did".

And SkyDog owing Jim $40...if we are counting up unrealized sales because of actions on this board or comments about the game I'd say there's quite a few posters on the board that would owe Jim money. We've been pretty critical of his games (which I don't think is a bad thing when it's constructive) and I'm sure there have been numerous people who have looked at the board and decided not to buy the game. :D

But in the end I think he should have been banned because his user name wasn't capitalized and was multiple words without spaces. Very annoying. ;)

[Marmel]

Almost as annoying as three letter names that refer to an insect.

[SplitPersonality1]

But not nearly as annoying as a certain Syracuse fan whose screen-name rhymes with Barbell. :)