Reports of AI issues re: Madden 2004

[MizzouRah]

Bill Abner has pointed out on operations sports that the CPU AI in Madden 2004 (he has the pc version) is point blank: terrible.

Basically, starting lower rated rookies over higher rated veterans, missing players at positions, drafting a QB for your first pick when you have a young good QB already, and the list goes on.

I am going to check this out tonight when I get home, this would flat out ruin solo play for me.

Anyone here confirm this? I'm hoping the ps2 version as different AI code? :confused:


Todd

[MizzouRah]

dola,

Here's (http://forums.operationsports.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=551410&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1) the link to the thread. Normally, I don't think twice about claims like this, but Bill is credible.


Todd

[Balldog]

I'll have to check this out tonight on XBOX.

[TLK]

Originally posted by MizzouRah


Basically, starting lower rated rookies over higher rated veterans, missing players at positions, drafting a QB for your first pick when you have a young good QB already, and the list goes on.


Todd

I've seen the lower rated players, but there usually rookies, that need playing time to improve. The QB thing is not unheard of in the NFL. Look at the Lions who have McMahon and then drafted Harrington (poor example, but it happens).

I've played a couple games and simmed through a season and no major complaints yet.....

[Philliesfan980]

I'd like to see a little more on this subject, but so far it doesn't look good. I haven't even really started to get into this game, just got it the other day, but now I don't even really want to.

[MizzouRah]

Originally posted by TheLionKing
I've seen the lower rated players, but there usually rookies, that need playing time to improve. The QB thing is not unheard of in the NFL. Look at the Lions who have McMahon and then drafted Harrington (poor example, but it happens).

I've played a couple games and simmed through a season and no major complaints yet.....


Some oddities are understandable, heck I question ootp's lineups on a daily basis, but Bill cited some serious AI mishaps that need some checking into. A team had 0 RT (or RG? I don't remember exactly) and drafted a QB? Recievers with a 70 ovr playing over someone with an 86 ovr? Crazy stuff... again this was the pc version, so I want to see if it's like that with the ps2, gc, or xbox versions...

Glad all seems normal to you.. or at least close..


Todd

[j51]

From what I've noticed the Trade AI is not bad. A team like the Cowboys will value a QB moreso than a team like the Eagles or Falcons. However the depth chart AI is, well.. stupid.

[sabotai]

Depth chart AI is something that's always been terrible in Madden. I guess I've grown used to stupid team management by the AI.

"A team had 0 RT (or RG? I don't remember exactly) and drafted a QB? "

Did that team have 2 really good LTs (or LGs)?

[Philliesfan980]

I can't believe that this thread isn't getting more replys. We were all hoping that this year's Madden would be like a Mini FOF with great graphics. So much for that huh?

[MizzouRah]

Originally posted by Philliesfan980
I can't believe that this thread isn't getting more replys. We were all hoping that this year's Madden would be like a Mini FOF with great graphics. So much for that huh?

When I get back from my daughter's 2nd grade meet the teacher night, I'm going to check out some of this. Bill has the pc game, maybe it's not as bad in the ps2 version. I know the pc version gets less attention than the console games.

Here are a few examples from Bill:

I scanned a few more teams. Remember this is the start of 2004:

Bears (starter listed first)

QB
Grossman - 77
Stewart - 81

G
Bowden - 70
Villarial - 77

LE
Haynes 75
Daniels 82

Bengals

WR
Washington 76
Warrick 82

G
Odwyer 68
Carter 74

Bills

LE
Kelsay 69
Denny 77

Broncos

QB
Rookie 79
Plummer 84

DE
Davis 66
Berry 74

I'm willing to bet every team is like the above. Not good. I have not seen a star player demoted, but guys in the mid 80s are not safe. And no, you cannot reorder CPU teams.


OK is this overreacting or a serious problem? I'm simming a few seasons to test the stat engine and I notice that Philly has no right guard in the depth chart. None. No one is injured, so that wasn't it. They have 2 left guards on the roster, but the RG spot is blank. 'OK let's see if the AI fixes this via FA or the draft.' Well, Philly didn't select one OL in the draft and signed a backup RT. No guards. Now I dunno about you guys, but to me that spells disaster if you expect the AI to behave in a semi rational manner.

Or how about this? The AI takes the Cleveland Browns and starts Holcomb (no issue there, I think he should start, too). Holcomb has a good year with an 85 QB eff. rating. The next year? The Browns use their first rnd pick to take a QB, with Couch and Holcomb already there, they put Couch at the #3 QB spot (with his 7+mil in cap hit) and BENCH Holcomb (who is now an 86 rated QB) to start this kid fresh out of Miss St. Holcomb goes back to carrying a clipboard and Couch is the most expensive 3rd string QB in the history of the NFL. It just seems like it shouldn't quite be like this. Maybe I'm being too critical, but this irks me to no end.


He said he happens mostly with QB's and Wideouts.


Todd

[MizzouRah]

x2dola,

It only seems to happen AFTER the first season. I'll have to sim a year and see what happens...


Todd

[FBPro]

I have not played enough Madden to know but I know that in some games a player will "decline" kinda "behind the scenes", in other words it isn't that you see the change in the ratings but in the performance. Could that be the case here? Just curious and really have no idea.

[Philliesfan980]

Sim 10 years and just look at the depth chart then. Very curious to hear the results.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally posted by MizzouRah
Some oddities are understandable, heck I question ootp's lineups on a daily basis, but Bill cited some serious AI mishaps that need some checking into. A team had 0 RT (or RG? I don't remember exactly) and drafted a QB? Recievers with a 70 ovr playing over someone with an 86 ovr? Crazy stuff... again this was the pc version, so I want to see if it's like that with the ps2, gc, or xbox versions...

Glad all seems normal to you.. or at least close..


Todd

maybe they didn't enter their serial number correctly???

oh wait, wrong football game.
:D

[Bee]

Originally posted by Philliesfan980
I can't believe that this thread isn't getting more replys. We were all hoping that this year's Madden would be like a Mini FOF with great graphics. So much for that huh?

Actually there's been quite a few problems with FOF handling roster management so maybe they followed Jim's lead a little too close. :D

[Draft Dodger]

Originally posted by Bee
Actually there's been quite a few problems with FOF handling roster management so maybe they followed Jim's lead a little too close. :D

well, if you ask Mr Skippy...

[GrantDawg]

His examples are exactly like what usually happens when you ask the CPU to set your lineup. If I were the Bears, and Grossman were really that close to Stewart, I'd start him. :)

I think the bigger problem is with progression. Especially with receivers and QB. If a QB or receiver isn't starting, they drop off like rocks. There are plenty of guys in the league who didn't break out until their 5-6th year. The defense rotates more, and has a lower threashhold for progressing, so they all seem fine. But about 5 years in, there are hardly any good WR in the league.

[Eilim]

No hard evidence as of yet, as I'm still focusing on my own "in game" playing skills, but I had noticed similar to the problems mentioned atleast with wide receivers when I quickly glanced at some rosters. Atleast from what little looking I did it seems Madden is placing alot of value on youth. At first I figured it was just over-compensation for past versions where you could strip teams of future hall of famers while saddling them with over-priced fading stars.

Until I get deeper into my franchise (which will be a while with me playing every game) I can't really tell yet if its going to be an ugly flaw/bug or just smart moves on the part of the AI on account of the new player progression routines and "packages" system.

[TroyF]

Originally posted by Ronnie Dobbs2
I mean, all the specific examples you quoted above to me look like they could be an extremely good AI. The AI knows it has to get the young guys some playing time to develop, and it's taking that into account. None of the ratings differences are too great IMO (maybe with the Bills). The fact that Denver drafted a QB with an 84 Plummer already on deck is a little worrying though.

Huh? There is no way Cleveland drafting a QB, starting him over Holcomb and having Couch be a 7 million dollar emergancy is good AI. In fact, it is REALLY bad AI.

I've thought the 2K/ESPN series has been better anyway. I almost got sucked into buying madden again this year so I could import some draft classes. . . whew.

TroyF

[GrantDawg]

Here is another oddity. Every O-lineman that made the pro bowl played on the rightside of the ball. Hmmmmmmm.....

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by TroyF

I've thought the 2K/ESPN series has been better anyway. I almost got sucked into buying madden again this year so I could import some draft classes. . . whew.

TroyF

That thing was a complete piece of crap last year. Maybe they will improve it this year, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Balldog]

Is he checking the lineups during the season or during preseason?

[MizzouRah]

Here's some more:

Bears sign an 87 rated Kerry Collins to a 3 year expensive deal and have an 80 rated Kordell Stewart, yet start 73 rated Rex Grossman. Grossman never threw a pass in 2003 and Collins threw for 15 TDs and 10 INT with a 78.1 QB rating and 56% accuracy.

Brunell (86 OVR) get benched in favor of Leftwich (78 OVR). Brunell had 60% pass completion, and a 76.5 QB rating. Lety stunk it up in relief in 2003, 43.9 QB rating.

Running backs -

No major issues.

WR -

Panthers start rookie Soloman Engram (75 OVR) and move Muhammad (86 OVR) to #2 WR. Muhammad coming off a 86 rec., 1077 yd year, with 12.5 per catch and 8 TDs!

Pats David Patten (82 OVR) get moved to #3 behind 79 and 77 rated recievers. Patten coming off a 76 catch, 915 yard, 12 YPC, 8 td season. Both guys above him have less numbers COMBINED. Here is the kicker. 90 rated Troy Brown who had a 101 rec, 1507 yard, 14.9 YPC, 11 TD season gets moved to #4 WR! WTF?

That's enough for now. The Pats WR situation shows no rational whatsoever

[MizzouRah]

Originally posted by Balldog
Is he checking the lineups during the season or during preseason?

During the season.


Todd

[Philliesfan980]

Mizzourah;

Balldog asks an important question, are these lineups for the preseason or the regular season? It might make a difference.

[MizzouRah]

I don't know if it's becuase I grew up with Madden, but I couldn't get into NFL 2k3 at all. Maybe 2k4 will be better, I hope so. I'm not throwing Madden out the door, however. I play all my games as well and will continue to monitor this.

There are some damn good players in FA, which I would like to sign, but I will see if the cpu teams go after them once preseason is over.


Todd

[Noble_Platypus]

I think Madden sucks anyway. Every madden I have owned offers no challenge. I throw for a ton of yards every game, even if I force myself to try and have a ground game. Its way easy to throw against the computer, so I held little hope that the AI for everything else would be anything but subpar.

[Buccaneer]

Didn't the developers know that the PC has a real CPU and therefore could do AI? I can accept a lot of things in gaming but the one thing that I find intolerable is the dumbing down of the PC port from a console and not taking advantage of real PC power by cutting corners or eliminating functionalities (or AI). :(

[MizzouRah]

Originally posted by Buccaneer
Didn't the developers know that the PC has a real CPU and therefore could do AI? I can accept a lot of things in gaming but the one thing that I find intolerable is the dumbing down of the PC port from a console and not taking advantage of real PC power by cutting corners or eliminating functionalities (or AI). :(

Unfortunetly, those days are gone. To big companies (at least sports), the pc is a distant memory. Text based sims are the only way to go for the pc, and that's a shame.

Companies go where the money is.. and that's in console gaming.

:(


Todd

[TroyF]

Originally posted by GrantDawg
That thing was a complete piece of crap last year. Maybe they will improve it this year, but I'm not holding my breath.

To each his own. I thought 2K3 was one of the best games I've ever played. No "mario" running through the line. A running game which actually felt like a REAL NFL running game. No catch up AI.

My only hope is that with the first person mode, they don't screw up the rest of the game.

One quick note: Most reviewers felt NFL2K3 was right on par with Madden. Sports Gaming Network gave Madden a 90, NFL2K3 an 87. All in all, if you go to GameRankings.com, you'll find NFL2K3 beat Madden in the average review score (90-88%) and the average user voting score (8.4-7.9) It isn't nearly as one sided as many Madden-ites want to make it out.

TroyF

[sabotai]

We shouldn't forget that maybe EA decided not to finish the AI for the PC version so they could just fix it in a patch. (Or maybe they just ran out of time.)

Are all these problems so far only showing up in the PC version?

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by TroyF
To each his own. I thought 2K3 was one of the best games I've ever played. No "mario" running through the line. A running game which actually felt like a REAL NFL running game. No catch up AI.

My only hope is that with the first person mode, they don't screw up the rest of the game.

One quick note: Most reviewers felt NFL2K3 was right on par with Madden. Sports Gaming Network gave Madden a 90, NFL2K3 an 87. All in all, if you go to GameRankings.com, you'll find NFL2K3 beat Madden in the average review score (90-88%) and the average user voting score (8.4-7.9) It isn't nearly as one sided as many Madden-ites want to make it out.

TroyF

Good for the reviewers. I [layed both games, and NFL2K3 wasn't even in the same ballpark. Not to mention all the annoying interface problems that made the game so aggrevating you wanted to through it out the window.

I'm not a "Madden-ite." I would be the first one to cheer if NFL2k4 is a much better game than Madden. They just have to prove it first.

[TroyF]

Originally posted by GrantDawg
Good for the reviewers. I [layed both games, and NFL2K3 wasn't even in the same ballpark. Not to mention all the annoying interface problems that made the game so aggrevating you wanted to through it out the window.

I'm not a "Madden-ite." I would be the first one to cheer if NFL2k4 is a much better game than Madden. They just have to prove it first.

We have different preferences I guess. I felt the complete opposite as to which was in the ball park of the other one. I will give you the interface. It was horrible. (Though I LOVED the way the play calling was set up, I've heard that is changed and I'm dissapointed there)

TroyF

[Maple Leafs]

Originally posted by j51
From what I've noticed the Trade AI is not bad. A team like the Cowboys will value a QB moreso than a team like the Eagles or Falcons. However the depth chart AI is, well.. stupid. I'll go one better, it's very good. From playing around with it, teams not only factor in their own needs but also thier revised needs based on what they're getting.

Example: with the 49ers, I offer Hearst to some team. They rate him a "B" on the trade screen. I decide to find out what they value Barlow, so I add him to the deal. He's also a "B", but Hearst drops to a "C'. Huh? But it makes sense... if they're getting Barlow, why would they want Hearst?

Haven't seen these other AI issues yet, but also haven't made it out of year one preseason yet.