OT - Hold 'em hand review

[QuikSand]

I don't have the patience to get into a thread detailing recent poker play - but I do have a particular hand that I would like to share - for those here who have gotten into playing hold 'em.


My stay at the Borgata is almost over - Mrs. Q and I have checked out of our room, and our car is packed. We are at the poker room for one last jaunt before heading out. I have been playing $3-6 for about an hour, and am abourt even - but do not like my table for variosu reasons. I decide to switch.

I move to the $2-4 table where Mrs. Q is playing, and buy in. I get a nice, strong straight draw with my very first hand to get ahead, and then go back to my tight play and stay around $30 ahead for the next hour or so.

I'm the small blind, and I am dealt pocket queens. I raise pre-flop, and get four callers. (This was a fairly tight table for $2-4, it seemed)

The flop comes Js - 5s - 3s, and I obviously have to think about the flush. I decide that while the bets are low, this is the good time to find out if anyone has already landed the flush. I bet to lead the round.

Two players drop out, and then the last to see my bet quickly decides to raise. This is a player who has seen a lot of flops, and has had a knack for hitting the best pair and picking up a fair number of posts with that. However, he's basically a calling station, so with the raise I have to put him on a made flush at this point.

The twist? One of my queens is, of course, the spade. So, while my pairs are what got me in, I still have a draw to the flush, and a potentially decent one as well.

I hem and haw a bit, and call the bet.

The turn brings 7s, and I have my flush made as well, though only with a Q - there are two more single cards out there that beat me.

I check to the raiser, and he bets $4.


...what should I do from here?

[Fritz]

get your free Gin Tonic

[Logan]

Re-raise.

[QuikSand]

The theory of the reraise is that I'm representing that I have the ace of spades-- and this would be totally consistent with many of the hands that I could have raised pre-flop (aces, AK, or AQ all fit). If he then reraises me... I put him on the nut flush, and get out.

[digamma]

I think this is a gut play where a call or a raise could be correct.

[digamma]

Dola.

If you simply call and then check and call again on the river, then (if he has the nut flush) you are still out the same 8 bucks that you put out for your raise on the turn.

[primelord]

I agree with digamma's call here. My first instinct was to say you should raise. For the reason you stated. If he has the Ace he will re-raise and you can muck your cards. If he doesn't re-raise then he may be sitting on the King, but with one card to beat you it's probably worth the extra bet.

However I started thinking that in those situations I would normally call with the Ace. Figuring my opponent wouldn't put me on an Ace since I didn't re-raise. And there is little harm in letting you see the river since it's unlikely even in the small blind that you would have played the low spades that could make the straight flush. Especially since if you were going to play them it would have probably been Ax and I have the Ace. So by not re-raising it would probably trap you for another bet on the river.

So with all that being said digamma's approach has less risk and as he said allows you to see the river for the same 8 bucks it would have cost you if he re-raised.

[QuikSand]

By the way, my usage of "nut" here has been loose... while it's technically possible that two low spades make the straight flush, I believe I am correct in practically ruling that out as a possibility, and focusing instead on the single spades that can complete the four-flush on the board.

[QuikSand]

Well... for what it's worth, I limped home. I decided that the even bigger weakness with the reraise was that I wouldn't see his cards. So, I called his bet, did the same on the river for the same $8.

Got to see his As - 9s, and lost the pot.

I chewed myself out over that hand for the next hour or so... but did so knowing that I was beaten all the way. I'm still not sure how wise it was to call his flush in the first place, but I think I did the right thing down the stretch, at least.

[primelord]

Originally posted by QuikSand
By the way, my usage of "but" here has been loose... while it's technically possible that two low spades make the straight flush, I believe I am correct in practically ruling that out as a possibility, and focusing instead on the single spades that can complete the four-flush on the board.

I would agree with that. I would think the only two low cards you could possibly put him on for the straight flush would be A2 or A4 and since the Ace alone beats you there is no reason to consider it.

[Logan]

I still stand by my decision (well, if I was in your shoes) to re-raise him in that situation. If he didn't have As or Ks, he's clearly going to fold (unless he's just a crazy bastard). And if he did have one of those golden cards, he's going to re-raise (unless he had Ks and he thought you had As, but lets not worry about that until below...), and you're going to muck 'em.

Maybe you would have been better off raising after the turn, not checking. If you, acting first, raises, he (lets forget he has As for a second and think strategy) will probably put you on As, and wouldn't call or re-raise a made hand.

If he has As and you raised after the flop, he would certainly re-raise. He shouldn't slow-play his made hand and call, because if you were holding a pair, lets say, JJ, it would be a huge risk for an extra $4 to allow the board to pair up and lose his Ace-high flush to a Boat. So when he re-raises the turn, you fold, and you save a few bucks on the river.

However, I'm sure there are plenty of people that will tell you that with the flop all spades, you should've folded if you weren't holding AsXs, KsXs, QsXs. I think in your situation you were right to stay in it, but after thinking it over, I probably would've raised after the flop (Don't you wish you had time to think a little, take a three hour nap, and then think some more at the card table? :))

[Vegas Vic]

In this situation, I would raise the turn (folding to a re-raise), and check down the river.

[Franklinnoble]

I have no idea how to play this game, or what any of you are talking about.

That said, I agree with Fritz.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by Vegas Vic
In this situation, I would raise the turn (folding to a re-raise), and check down the river.

The more I have thought about it, the more I like that play. I don't know if my decision to limp onward was due to weak will or just weak reasoning...

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by QuikSand
The more I have thought about it, the more I like that play. I don't know if my decision to limp onward was due to weak will or just weak reasoning...

I don't know if you address it in another thread but how was the Borgata? I was at Bally's last weekend, and saw the pretty lights but didn't make it over there :).

[QuikSand]

The Borgata is very nice, far and away the best spot in AC. I can't imagine spending much of any time in any other hotel in AC now, unless it's for a special poker event or something. Far superior accommodations, food, and ambiance altogether.

[QuikSand]

So this evening, I played in a hold 'em tournament. Did okay - played a bit too tight, though, and after being the chip leader as my first table broke down, I got nibbled away as we were down to two tables, and settled for something like 7th place (with four positions being paid).

Found a completely wild no-limit game afterwards, though -- my $50 buy-in turned variously into $140, then $30, then back up around $200, and then to about $140 again. At the end of the night, I'm big blind and have queens down. After two callers (of $2 bets) I raise $10. One player reraises me $50. He has bled something like $400 in this game already, by my count - so I fugre he may just be on tilt - and my queens are too good to let go. I reraise him $50, and put him all in. We turn - my queens are met by his AsQs - so we're pretty close to a toss-up. The flop comes... with three spades. Unbelievable. So, I end up pretty much busted on the night, even after playing fairly well (I think - I'm still on the learning curve with no-limit play).

That might have been the most fun I have had at a poker table, though - we must have had 25 pots get over $100 in a nominally $2-$4 game... and even though hardly any of us knew one another, there seemed to be pretty good chemistry all around.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally posted by QuikSand
We turn - my queens are met by his AsQs - so we're pretty close to a toss-up.

Actually, you're a 2 to 1 favorite going into the flop, so I would classify this one as a bad beat.

AQs vs. QQ (http://twodimes.net/h/?z=43062)

[QuikSand]

Actually, I mis-typed... he had AKs to my queens. My error here, but I do think that puts us pretty close to even.

[MJ4H]

yes a pocket pair is about 51-52% favorite over suited AK. Still basically a coin flip.

[Ufer]

fwiw, I think you should fold (or maybe call). Remember, you were up against 4 callers pre-flop, so this is like the classic "Let's Make a Deal" puzzle where you should always trade for the unknown door. Meaning, if any one of the four callers had the As, you were in trouble with that flop.

Except for varying your play so you won't be readable or to create table image, why raise? Think about his possible hands:

1. He has you beat with an As or Ks: Unless you think a raise will force him to fold the Ks (not likely), what good is your raise? for you will have lost just as much $ even when you muck his re-raise as with 2 calls, as you say yourself.

2. You have him beat -- he has a lower flush or trips or 2 pair: probably he was testing to see if you had a flush and will fold if you raise, so you gain zero, whereas if you call, you may win one more bet on the river. I know you said he was a calling station but, unless he's a fish, will he really call a re-raise with that board and no As, Ks or Qs?

[thirdandlong]

regarding the original question. I would have bet the turn, instead of checking. Of course I probably would have also called the raise instead of folding as was suggested above. THen called to the finish and lost. My friend and coworker, says he would have raised until he was out of money in your situation. hehe I get to play poker with him tonight! ;)

[QuikSand]

Okay - new hand. This morning, playing at a $50 NL hold em table. I am sitting about $90, the other two relevant player each have around $40.

I call with Ad6d in middle position, and get to see the flop for only the $1 blind amount.

Flop comes 7d-9d-Jd, laid out just like that (so any dummy, even me, can see the SF gaps perfectly clearly). Weird spot - my ace-flush is made, but I'm not coujnting money yet. #1 bets $9, to my surprise. #4 calls, to my even greater surprise. I have little choice but to put both buys on made flushes (possibly a made straight) and while my A probably rules, there's the matter of the Td8d out there.

Question #1 - what do I do here?

I'll go on with the narrative, because it gets even stickier. I contemplate raising these guys with my ace straight, but decide that my bigger upside is just to limp onward, hope they keep betting, and just play into me. I put in my $9, and we go to the turn...

8d

Okay, we now have four to the SF on the board. #1 very quickly posts a $10 bet, and #4 folds (probably tossing his straight, in my judgement).

So, here I sit. I haven't been playing long enough to really have any feel for #1, so I'm working without any real read here. He's bet, and I have the clear second-best card. The Td beats me with the straight flush, and my A is in the dubious position of being second best - strong enough to lose a big pot.

It's $10 to call, he's got $20 or so behind it in his stack. I have plenty to put him all in if I want to (and keep playing if I lose)-- it's just a matter of temperament.

Question #2 - what do I do here?

[Buccaneer]

It's not a lot of money and he's only got a couple more bets before all-in. My guess he has a K-high flush.

[Ufer]

This is a tougher situation. There is a real possibility of the straight flush here and a bad beat. A good number of players would play Kd-10d or Qd-10d that way, and a bad player might play 10d-xd that way.

I agree with Buccaneer: he probably has Kd or Qd and you were smart to only call on the flop and now maybe can bust him.

Whether to call or raise is the choice. If you raise and he has you beat, obviously a bad choice.

If you raise and he has Kd or Qd, a good player will probably fold since your Ad or 10d beats him. But you don't know him. A wild player or one who can't lay down a flush could be busted.

Another way to think it: there is $40 in the pot. Lets assume he'll put in his last $20, so you will have to put in $30 more to win $60 for 2 to1 odds (or possibly 5 to 2 odds if he only bets $10 more). If you put him at less than 65% chance of having the 10d, you will be getting the best of it.

[QuikSand]

Well, your analysis coincided with mine here... I didn't see much upside to pressing the issue, and instead called his bets -- both on the turn and the river (which was of no consequence to the four-flush hand).

We get to the showdown, and he reveals that he was playing the Kd-5d, and loses to my Ad. Good pot.

[QuikSand]

Next setup... this is pretty fun.

Playing at another no-limit hold' em table. I have about $40 in my stack, have only played a short while (so I don't have much feel for the players).

I am the small blind, and am dealt pocket sevens. I call the big blind, and five players go to the flop.

I get my set, as the flop comes 5-7-Q (suits inconsequential).

I check, thinking I have a shot to get a good payout here, and wanting the pot to get fatter before I move. Player two past the big blind goes all-in, for his entire stack of about $70. Two other players predictably fold, and it's my action.


Do I go all in, and risk about $40 more on this hand?

I think this is an easier decision... though Mrs. Q disagreed with me. But I'll be interested to see if you join with me here.

[cuervo72]

Hmm, this is almost like a situational tutorial :) Well I'm a novice, not having really played but just watched. My inclination would be that he is trying to scare everyone off, but that's just me. The only things it looks like you need to worry about is him having pocket Q's. Would he go all in on a straight draw, with a 6 and 4 or 8? I don't know about that. In theory, I think I'd call (though I'm sure I'd chicken out in reality).

[Bee]

I'd think the odds of him having pocket Q's would be pretty slim considering there's one on the board. He's more likely to have pocket K's or A's. I'd call, but that's probably the wrong play. :D

[cuervo72]

Wouldn't they be the same odds as QS having pocket 7's with one on the board :)

[albionmoonlight]

What would make him go all in? Pocket queens certainly. Pocket kings and aces, possibly. Pocket fives, probably not.

But, if he had pocket kings or aces, he might have raised pre-flop.

I think that I would fold on the theory that he has pocket queens.

(But what do I know, having lost ~$10 over the course of the weekend at partypoker playing $.5/$1? I still have a lot of learning to do.)

[cuervo72]

With pocket Q's wouldn't he want to at least raise pre-flop to cut down the risk in that many players seeing the flop? :confused:

[TredWel]

Well, you only have one hand to worry about - the pocket ladies. If he's got a straight draw, he's the underdog here.

So let's look at his play. Early position, he limps in. It's very likely that if he has queens, he would raise - so I'd be inclined not to place him on the queens. It's possible that he intends to limp-reraise, but you don't see that play as often with queens as you do with kings and aces.

Now that we've flopped Q-7-5, for all intents and purposes garbage, he pushes all in. He should never have pocket queens for this move. The odds that someone has a second-best hand here are minimal. This hand screams to be slowplayed. A straight draw is unlikely and must be chanced. Let someone get a second best hand on the turn or river, and let them bet into you.

So, my reaction? Highly unlikely that you're staring at pocket queens, unless being played by a rank newbie. And, since he's got a reasonably good stack, odds are he knows what he's doing. Look for AQ or KQ, or on the outside, something like Q5s.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by TredWel
Well, you only have one hand to worry about - the pocket ladies. If he's got a straight draw, he's the underdog here.

So let's look at his play. Early position, he limps in. It's very likely that if he has queens, he would raise - so I'd be inclined not to place him on the queens. It's possible that he intends to limp-reraise, but you don't see that play as often with queens as you do with kings and aces.

Now that we've flopped Q-7-5, for all intents and purposes garbage, he pushes all in. He should never have pocket queens for this move. The odds that someone has a second-best hand here are minimal. This hand screams to be slowplayed. A straight draw is unlikely and must be chanced. Let someone get a second best hand on the turn or river, and let them bet into you.

So, my reaction? Highly unlikely that you're staring at pocket queens, unless being played by a rank newbie. And, since he's got a reasonably good stack, odds are he knows what he's doing. Look for AQ or KQ, or on the outside, something like Q5s.

This is exactly my thinking. I push all in, fully expecting to be the favorite.

Regrettably, on Party Poker, they don't allow for any "drma" when revealing in this situation... we're heads up and all in, but they just show the cards quickly, then reveal the down cards at the same time the money moves to the winner.

It's more dramatic to reveal the cards first, then watch the table unfold. So, just for you...

I reveal my set of sevens, which are now up against his predictable AsQs. I don't know the exact magnitude of my advantage, but I know it's mine.

Turn brings him a junk spade - to go with one other already on the table. Now he has a flush draw in addition to a Q as a possible out.

River comes as the king of spades. He fills out his improbable flush, and takes home the ~$90 pot.

Bad beat, eh?

[TredWel]

Originally posted by QuikSand
I reveal my set of sevens, which are now up against his predictable AsQs. I don't know the exact magnitude of my advantage, but I know it's mine.

After the flop, you were a 94.75% favorite.

The spade on the turn takes you down to "only" a 81.82% favorite.

Tough beat, but you're going to lose that hand 5.25% of the time. That's poker.

[Ufer]

Bad beat but well played. Checking on the flop suckered him into the wrong play (though not a bad play).

I was watching the WSOP on ESPN, and some guy pulled a 4.5% draw to knock Phil Hellmuth out of the tourney.

[Rich1033]

Sorry to threadjack, but I just found myself in an interesting situation during my first session on partypoker.com.

Now Im playing at the .50/1 tables, so the play is of course very loose. Im dealt pocket aces. Im happy and am just thinking of a way to get the most money into the pot. Then the flop coes 3-3-4. I get a little nervous, but raise. Four players stay in for the next card, which turns out to be a 4. Now Im very concerned about losing more money so I just call. The last card is a queen and makes no impact. I stay in and call the bets.

Now I ended up winning the hand, but Im curious if more experienced player would consider folding their pocket aces with 2 possibilities for 3 of a kind sitting on the table?

Im proud of my overall play. In the beginning I lost about $22 right away. However after I figured out a strategy and settled down, I got back to even for the day.