GroupThink 3 - Sizing up the Kitty Hawk Flyers [Archive]

Bee

08-23-2003, 09:32 AM

Kitty Hawk Flyers Defensive Line

Scout Overview:
Martin, Cedric 78 LDE 10 50 64 3 yrs. 2018
Bush, Bruce 91 LDE 2 19 42 3 yrs. 2019
Hurtado, Kyle 72 LDE 2 14 37 1 yr. 2019
Shields, Walt 95 LDT 2 23 37 --- 2019
Littlejohn, Jack 77 RDT 2 35 43 4 yrs. 2019
Davison, Frank 94 RDT 3 24 38 1 yr. 2018
Ramsey, Todd 71 RDT 4 14 19 1 yr. 2017
Emerson, Geoff 76 RDE 2 25 36 --- 2019

Chemistry:
Martin, Cedric 78 LDE Content Taurus Defensive Front Leader
Bush, Bruce 91 LDE Content Scorpio
Hurtado, Kyle 72 LDE Content Gemini
Shields, Walt 95 LDT Content Aries
Littlejohn, Jack 77 RDT Content Leo
Davison, Frank 94 RDT Content Sagittarius
Ramsey, Todd 71 RDT Content Pisces Strong Affinity
Emerson, Geoff 76 RDE Content Pisces Affinity

Contract Info:
Martin, Cedric 78 LDE 2018 2022 10 $14,290,000 $11,100,000
Bush, Bruce 91 LDE 2019 2022 2 $1,500,000 $830,000
Hurtado, Kyle 72 LDE 2019 2020 2 $990,000 $860,000
Shields, Walt 95 LDT 2019 ---- 2 $0 $0
Littlejohn, Jack 77 RDT 2019 2023 2 $2,480,000 $1,440,000
Davison, Frank 94 RDT 2018 2020 3 $1,120,000 $1,070,000
Ramsey, Todd 71 RDT 2017 2020 4 $3,150,000 $2,290,000
Emerson, Geoff 76 RDE 2019 ---- 2 $0 $0

Cedric Martin:

Was a 1st team all-pro in 2017 when he started 15 games and had 14.5 sacks. Martin joined Kitty Hawk after his all-pro season and has been fighting injuries all his career. Martin is the defensive front leader, idolized by the fans (94) with a strong personality(79) and very high leadership(84) skills. Despite only being with us for 2 seasons, Martin is very loyal (93) to the team. Over the last two seasons Martin has only been able to play 11 games for us, but in those 11 games he has come up with 8.5 sacks. Martin can also play the run well and will help in that aspect of the game as well. He's a solid all-around DE. When
healthy he's by far the best Defensive lineman we have and he appears to be healthy going into this season. While his salary is very high, I'm hoping his loyalty to the team and his recent injury problems will lead him to accept a new contract that will benefit both the team and himself.

Bruce Bush:
Bruce was a 3rd round pick last year that ended up starting 12 games for us because of Martin's injury. He was able to come up with 4 sacks for the year. While not popular with the fans (18), he is a very intelligent player (94) with some leadership skills (66). He could care less who he plays for (loyalty=12) or if the team wins (6). Because of his starting last season and his carefree attitude towards the team, he may want a big increase in salary. While a worthy backup that I'd like to keep around, he's not worth starting money at this point in his career.

Kyle Hurtado:
Kyle was a 5th round pick last year that started 1 game and played in 13 games. He was able to come up with 5.5 sacks. A relative unknown to the fans (17), Kyle is also an intelligent player (85). Not the leader (36) that Bush seems to be in the locker room, he seems content with his place on the team. Hurtado was actually more productive last year than Bush despite not appearing to have the same amount of skill. Because of his production, he might be worth holding onto for a season if Bush wants a starter's contract.

Walt Shields:
Walt Shields was brought in last season as an Unrestricted Rookie Free Agent (URFA). He's a strong pass rusher, but needs to work on his technique. He started all 16 games last year and ended up with 2.5 sacks and 24 tackles/13 assists. Not a team leader (23) nor popular with the fans (18), Walt could be a good backup if he's willing to resign with the team for a reasonable salary. He might be wanting bigger money considering he started 16 games last year, in which case he really isn't worth keeping.

Jack Littlejohn:
Jack Littlejohn was the 2nd round pick last year and is our best DT. He started all 16 games along side Walt Shields and ended up with 1.0 sack and 35 tackles/14 assists. He's got good leadership skills (77) and would possibly take over for Martin as the Defensive Front Leader if Martin were to depart. The fans don't seem to know much about Littlejohn (pop=13) and that may be a good thing. Littlejohn has absolutely no loyalty to the team (0) and really wants to play for a winning team (95). I'd like to keep Littlejohn on board, but considering all the factors (16 starts, 0 loyalty, 95 winning team), that may prove expensive to do.

Frank Davison:
A 6th round pick in 2018 out of West Virginia, Frank came in and started for us his rookie season. Sadly, Frank wasn't productive with only 1/2 a sack and 24 tackles/8 assists. Last year he backed up Shields and Littlejohn and got into 14 games for very short periods. Frank only played in 81 plays from scrimmage all year. He had O sacks, 0 tackles and 3 assists. Frank may be worth keeping as a backup, especially if Shields and Littlejohn want too much money to stay with the team.

Todd Ramsey:
Ramsey was a 2nd round pick in 2017 and just has never lived up to those expectations. He hasn't seen any action since his rookie season. While Ramsey gets along very well with Cedric Martin, I just don't see any reason to keep him on the team. While there will be a salary cap hit with his release, I think the money we save will be better spent somewhere else.

Geoff Emerson:
The URFA from West Virginia, Emerson started all 16 games last season from the Right End position. He was able to get 4 sacks and 32 tackles / 9 assists in his rookie campaign. Geoff got along well with Cedric Martin and teaming them up on the ends may help both players. He's not a team leader (15) and is a quite guy (personality = 7) who follows the lead of Martin. For a first year player, Emerson has developed some loyalty to the team (56), which may allow us to sign him to a reasonable deal during free agency although his desire to play for a winning team (94) may work against us. I'd like to keep Emerson as a potential starter or at least as a backup.

QuikSand

08-23-2003, 12:31 PM

So, perhaps we make a serious effort to retain Cedric Martin, secure him as our position leader and best lineman. We see what Bush wants, but expect to see him go. Then, we'll field offers to Hurtado, Littlejohn, and Emerson in an effort to start off with a little depth. Assuming we get three guys for around 10% of the salary cap, I think that sounds pretty reasonable to me.

Swaggs

08-23-2003, 01:45 PM

I will get a scouting report of the O-line sometime tonight or tomorrow night.

Bee

08-23-2003, 06:40 PM

Originally posted by QuikSand
So, perhaps we make a serious effort to retain Cedric Martin, secure him as our position leader and best lineman. We see what Bush wants, but expect to see him go. Then, we'll field offers to Hurtado, Littlejohn, and Emerson in an effort to start off with a little depth. Assuming we get three guys for around 10% of the salary cap, I think that sounds pretty reasonable to me.

That sounds like a plan to me. It is kind of hard to make recommendations without moving forward a little and being able to see what the salary requests are going to be though.

I'm kind of curious to see how Emerson would play alongside Martin since they have a affinity working. Last season Emerson outperformed his ratings, but that happens sometimes without an affinity. If he can do it again this season, I'd be more apt to attribute it to team chemistry.

I'd also like to see us bring in a solid DT to shore up the run D in the middle (depending on the Def. Coordinator's plans and other needs of course).

TredWel

08-24-2003, 09:27 AM

Keeping an eye towards finances, here's a list of four possible candidates for our head coaching vacancy.

Dixon Rivers - A very young (36) rookie head coach, he's the cheapest passable option there is. Not much for developing positions (except for RB, LB, and the secondary), but has good coaching skills. Good at Young Talent, Offensive Playcalling, and Avoiding Injury, and Very Good at Defensive Playcalling. A good coach of Veterans, he'd be a steal at $3,440,000.

Russell Andersen - Reaching coaching middle age at the age of 56, Russell is a well-rounded rookie coach. Average in most respects, but very good at developing Recieveres and Kickers, and Good at developing the secondary. His coaching sklls are also well rounded, and he's is rated good at Motivation, Discipline, and Avoid Injury. He's not much more than Rivers, only $3,850,000, and would be a good coach no matter the philosophy.

Juan Stone - Possibly the best development coach out there in our price range. He's at least Good in all categories of player development, save the secondary. He's also just Average with young talent. His coaching skills, however, leave much to be desired. He's 58, has no experience, and is asking $4,570,000.

Billy Dayton - Probably as high as we can afford to go. He's 59, and has two seasons under his belt as coach of the Ocean City Thrashers, garnering a 16-16 record over those two seasons with no playoff appearances. He's at least average in every respect. His standout qualities at development include Very Good at Running Back and Good at Secondary, alongside a Good Young Talent rating. He also has Good Motivational skills and Offensive Playcalling skills, and is Very Good at injury avoidance. He's only asking $4,810,000, but I could see us having competition at that level if we decide to bid on him.

QuikSand

08-24-2003, 03:16 PM

Based on that (I haven't really looked yet) my inclination would be to go young and cheap, and approach Dixon Rivers first. Good playcalling skills and at least "good" in avoiding injuries sounds fine to me.

Bee

08-24-2003, 04:26 PM

I would think cheap would be the primary concern considering the financial house rules. We still want the best coach we can get for the money, but we definitely want to spend the least amount we have to I would think.

Fritz

08-24-2003, 08:26 PM

Our players are professionals, they will develop themselves in their off time. We need a guy who knows how to use a playbook!

Fritz

08-24-2003, 08:28 PM

Athens (45ish miles east of atlanta) is a little further from OBX than Philly.

albionmoonlight

08-24-2003, 09:29 PM

Our team has linebackers, though you would not know it to look at the roster (or, I imagine, if you had watched them play over the last few seasons).

There are no affinities or conflicts with the defensive front leader.

DENNIS BAXTER, SLB--Taurus
BYRON BRITO, SLB--Sagittarius
*GINO DERN, MLB--Virgo
*LELAND GEORGE, MLB--Aquarius
**VINNY RUITER, MLB--Taurus
ROGER FRANCIS, WLB--Aries

*=UFA
**=RFA
_____________________________________

DENNIS BAXTER--A fourth round draft choice from Northwestern entering his third year in the league and the final year of his contract. In that time, he has 1 start, 30 tackles, and one sack. Our scout rates his current-future potential as 19-36. Not much more to say about him.

BYRON BRITO--A third round draft choice from USC also entering his third year in the league and the final year of his contract. In that time he has 6 starts, 31 tackles, and one sack. Our scout says 22-39. He is the best of our linebackers. By default, I would be interested in offering him a contract and seeing if he gives us a reasonable offer.

GINO DERN--This 6th round WSU cougar is a UFA who has spent his 8 year career with the Flyers. In that time, he has been a stalwart in the middle, starting 105 games and racking up over 550 tackles. Our scout rates him as a 36-36. Has very limited upside, but has big heart. I'd like to keep him around, at least while we are rebuilding.

LELAND GEORGE--This former first round pick from Miss. St. has managed to start ZERO games for Kitty Hawk in his six year career, giving us great return on our investment. Our scout say 25-31. I say, time for us to part ways.

VINNY RUIETER--We picked him up off the street last year from Wisconsin. He made two tackles for us, for which we are grateful. Our scout says 17-33. I say, we can get another and better street FA and do not need to resign him.

ROGER FRANCIS--A fifth year player from the mountains of West Carolina. Has started 49 games for us and seems to have a problem staying healthy for a 16 game season. Our scout says 35-35. I think that he will ask for too much to stay on the team, but if he asks for a decent contract, then maybe. We can go toward the future without him if need be.

Swaggs

08-24-2003, 10:34 PM

<pre>
Player # Pos Exp Current Estimate Future Estimate Cntrct OnTeam
Andrews, Willie 65 LT 11 64 64 4 yrs. 2018
Grandon, Don 67 LT 5 36 50 1 yr. 2016
Lash, Randy 62 LG 17 76 76 1 yr. 2018
Foley, Les 60 LG 9 37 37 3 yrs. 2012
Winters, R.J. 54 C 13 79 79 --- 2012
Perry, Lewis 57 C 2 23 47 1 yr. 2019
McCord, Alonzo 73 RG 6 51 51 3 yrs. 2015
Peterson, Rufus 68 RG 2 25 42 1 yr. 2019
Zorich, Mark 74 RT 5 33 33 2 yrs. 2016
Coffey, Darren 63 RT 2 15 36 --- 2019

___________________________________________

Player # Pos Playing Time Sign Chemistry

Andrews, Willie 65 LT Content Capricorn Affinity
Grandon, Don 67 LT Disgruntled Taurus Conflict
Lash, Randy 62 LG Content Leo
Foley, Les 60 LG Unhappy Virgo
Winters, R.J. 54 C Content Libra Offensive Line Lead
Perry, Lewis 57 C Content Virgo
McCord, Alonzo 73 RG Content Gemini
Peterson, Rufus 68 RG Content Pisces
Zorich, Mark 74 RT Content Virgo
Coffey, Darren 63 RT Content Aries

___________________________________________

Player # Pos OnTm EndCnt Exp Cap Cost Save if Rlse

Andrews, Willie 65 LT 2018 2023 11 $10,460,000 $7,160,000
Grandon, Don 67 LT 2016 2020 5 $4,750,000 $3,710,000
Lash, Randy 62 LG 2018 2020 17 $10,300,000 $6,600,000
Foley, Les 60 LG 2012 2022 9 $8,220,000 $6,460,000
Winters, R.J. 54 C 2012 UFA 13 $0 $0
Perry, Lewis 57 C 2019 2020 2 $1,060,000 $830,000
McCord, Alonzo 73 RG 2015 2022 6 $6,880,000 $3,350,000
Peterson, Rufus 68 RG 2019 2020 2 $860,000 $860,000
Zorich, Mark 74 RT 2016 2021 5 $1,280,000 $1,280,000
Coffey, Darren 63 RT 2019 ---- 2 $0 $0

___________________________________________

Player # Pos HT WT Exp Birthdate College

Andrews, Willie 65 LT 6-4 280 11 01/02/1988 Illinois
Grandon, Don 67 LT 6-0 303 5 05/08/1993 Iowa
Lash, Randy 62 LG 6-8 323 17 08/20/1982 Georgia Tech
Foley, Les 60 LG 6-2 295 9 09/20/1990 Colorado
Winters, R.J. 54 C 6-2 282 13 10/21/1985 Stanford
Perry, Lewis 57 C 6-1 268 2 09/02/1995 Temple
McCord, Alonzo 73 RG 6-2 296 6 06/03/1992 UNLV
Peterson, Rufus 68 RG 6-1 298 2 02/19/1995 Texas Tech
Zorich, Mark 74 RT 6-5 300 5 09/17/1993 Georgia
Coffey, Darren 63 RT 6-5 306 2 04/12/1996 Texas A&M

</pre>

Swaggs

08-24-2003, 10:48 PM

Centers
R.J. Winters: Winters is our offensive line leader at this point of his career and has not missed a game since he joined the Flyers 8 seasons ago. He has two big things working against him right now, in that he is an attractive unrestricted free agent and he will turn 35 years old this season. Our scouts still think he can perform at a high level, and I am inclined to agree. I think he can still play at a solid level for 2-3 more seasons. I strongly recommend that we attempt to resign him, based on the fact that he is very talented, a team leader, the fans love him, and we do not have anyone (in-house) that can step in and contribute at the center position.

Perry Lewis: We drafted Lewis, in the fourth round, out of Temple three seasons ago. He has developed into a nice reserve player for us, particularly as a run blocker. However, he is a big liability against the pass and I do not ever see him developing into more than a backup Center and/or Guard. He is a nice utility lineman for us. In my opinion, he is coming to a make or break point in his career as a Flyer. He is solid enough talent-wise, but this is his last season under contract (he will become a RFA) and he may become too expensive for the role he fills. Still, he will be a useful member of our team in 2020.

Swaggs

08-24-2003, 11:10 PM

Guards:

Randy Lash: The 38-year old (yes, 38-years old) left guard is still among the biggest (6-8/323 lbs) and most talented players in the league, particularly at run blocking. He is a four-time all league performer, but has had problems staying healthy--he has not played in all 16 games in a season since 2012. He will easily be the starter at LG for us in 2020. He will become a free agent following this season, however, so we may want to audition some new blood at guard during the preseason. That way, he will be protected and rested, and we can have an idea of who his replacement candidates might be should he retire or leave via free agency following this season. He is idolized by fans, so expect to see plenty of #62 jerseys in the stands.

Les Foley: Once among the most promising young linemen in the NFL, Foley has fallen upon hard times following (presumably) and injury two seasons ago. He is still a strong run blocker, but is a complete liability versus any type of quality pass rusher. Foley loves Kitty Hawk and his been with us since we selcted him in the first round 8 seasons ago, however, he carries a huge salary cap figure and no longer has the talent to start. To top it off, he has become increasingly unhappy at his inability to break back into the starting lineup. His cap figure is $8.22M. I strongly recommend releasing him, creating $6,46M in cap space for us this season. I would much rather see that money going toward C R.J. Winters than for a backup guard.

Alonzo McCord: McCord has been with us since being selected in the first round in 2015. He is a solid, but unspectacular starter. He is very strong versus the pass rush, but sub-par vs the run. We should not run over him often, only to keep defenses honest. He might be better suited at LG, but he is pencilled in at RG for now. Depending on our offensive schemes, we may want to swap he and Lash to get strong protection on our QBs blindside while running more to our right. Barring injury, he should be a member of the Flyers for several years into the future.

Rufus Peterson: Peterson was a nice suprise for us as a 7th rounder last season. He is not talented enough to be a quality starter, but he has enough balance versus the pass and run to be an adequate fill in, if need be. His price is very affordable ($860K) and he should be a strong contributor on special teams and as a backup.

Swaggs

08-24-2003, 11:41 PM

Tackles:

Willie Andrews: Andrews is an interesting player. He has very good, almost excellent, talent, but seems almost indifferent as to the success of the team. Almost as if he is going through the motions. We signed him to an enormous deal two years ago, and it may become an albatross in future years (it increases from roughly $10.5M to roughly $16.5M over the next four years), due to his somewhat advanced age of 32. Hopefully he can remain a solid contributor over the course of the contract. Andrews is a very good overall player, very consistent and pretty durable. He should start for us at LT and do a nice job. He is very close friends with center R.J. Winters, so not signing Winters could adversely affect his play.

Dan Grandon: Grandon is a guy that we will need to keep a very close eye on this preseason. He is a very enigmatic player. Obviously he is talented, as we took him in the first round in 2016. However, he is not a very good pass blocker, but he is such a strong run blocker, it is hard to keep him off the field. That said, he has never been able to win a starting job in his four seasons here. His talent, potential, contract, and the fact that the alternatives are not great, indicate that he should be our starter at RT (provided we plan to run off tackle often). However, he and R.J. Winters absolutely hate one another. At last season's camp, they had to be pulled off of one another after he criticized Winters in the newspapers. However, part of the problem is that Gandon is a very strong leader himself and may be resentful that he has not been able to establish himself and gain his teammates' respect in the way that Winters has. If we are going for peace and harmony and plan to resign Winters, we may consider releasing Grandon and calling his career with the Flyers a bust.

Mark Zorich: Zorich came to us as an undrafted free agent four seasons ago and has started in all four season. He is a decent pass blocker, but does not deserve to start because he simply cannot block NFL lineman on running plays. I would be inclined to keep him around as a backup, so as to keep our cohesion intact, but if he is a starter for us, we are in trouble.

Darren Coffey: Coffey was an undrafted free agent signee last season that made our practice squad and stuck around all season. He is a serviceable fourth tackle, but could just as easily be a camp casualty if we bring in some competition. He is unsigned but I would like to bring him to camp if possible. I am fairly confident he would sign a minimum salary contract.

Swaggs

08-24-2003, 11:53 PM

OL Coach Comments/Questions:

What type of roster space will we dedicate to offensive lineman? The minimum requirements are 2 centers, 3 guards, 3 tackles. My dream scenario would be two centers, four active guards, four active tackles, and one "developmental" inactive lineman.
I strongly recommend releasing OG Lester Foley. We can utilize his cap space much more efficiently.
I strongly recommend that we resign C R.J. Winters. He is our team leader and a strong performer. Losing him will create a big hole to fill and really throw off our line's cohesion.
OG Randy Lash has been a great player for a long time, but I do not think we should pursue an extension with him. He is still talented, but the combination of his age and his potential salary does not make him a good fit for us.
Provided we are able to resign Winters, I would like to see us pursue young, inexpensive, but high potential (re: green bars) backups at guard and tackle. Guys that we can try to develop.
If we have the salary cap room available, I think a strong right tackle would be a very important target for free agency or the early rounds of the draft.
We may also look for a guard and center prospect in the latter rounds of the draft.

Fritz

08-25-2003, 07:16 AM

Originally posted by Swaggs
OL Coach Comments/Questions:

[list]
What type of roster space will we dedicate to offensive lineman? The minimum requirements are 2 centers, 3 guards, 3 tackles. My dream scenario would be two centers, four active guards, four active tackles, and one "developmental" inactive lineman.

What I always seem to do is keep 10 total linemen with 1 reserve active and one inactive. Of course this is felxible as talent and needs dictate.

Originally posted by Swaggs
I strongly recommend that we resign C R.J. Winters. He is our team leader and a strong performer. Losing him will create a big hole to fill and really throw off our line's cohesion.

I concur, however my feeling is that C Perry is good enough to start if winters does not work out.

Originally posted by Swaggs
OG Randy Lash has been a great player for a long time, but I do not think we should pursue an extension with him. He is still talented, but the combination of his age and his potential salary does not make him a good fit for us.

Be a shame to lose him, but if he has to go....

I myself would rather cut RB Farrell and use part of the 8M on a powerhouse like Lash.

--
[putting on crazyman of the FOFC hat]

A team with this much talent would be hard to assemble on my (low talent generating) home PC. Backups like perry and coffee would be startable in a season or two.

Fritz

08-25-2003, 07:49 AM

A starting line - up of the people we have currently under contract

QB: Jon Clayton - Better Accuracy than Ater.

RB: Wes Farrell with Finley coming off the bench and in situations.

FB: (RB) Daniel Finley . Well, we don't have a FB on the roster, but i would probably do this anyway to get him on the field.

TE: Wade Parten, but I would slot Julio Diana as the TE in some (run) formations.

FL: Peter Song. A good young WR. Since are only 2, this was a no brainer.

SE: Robbie Stanford. Since there are only 2 WR, this was a no brainer. I like him anyway as a possesion type.

LT: Willy Andrews.

LG: Randy Lash

C: Lewis Perry

RG: Alonzo McCord

RT: Don Grandon (LT)

----

Actually, I like this group. Our QB situation is not good compared to Louisville and Lake Erie.

Bee

08-25-2003, 07:52 AM

Are we still going with the rule that we have to renegotiate a player's contract if we keep them on the roster?

QuikSand

08-25-2003, 08:39 AM

Originally posted by Bee
Are we still going with the rule that we have to renegotiate a player's contract if we keep them on the roster?

Yes, we will keep that rule, I think. (I haven't heard any contrary views on that)

albionmoonlight

08-25-2003, 09:24 AM

I think that we need to pick up at least one solid OLB in FA or the draft. We don't have anyone of real note at that position.

QuikSand

08-25-2003, 09:55 AM

I have moved forward with hiring Dixon Rivers as our coach, and decided to stand pat with out current lead scout.

In your game, you may move ahead to the FA period - for purposes of seeing how much our current players are going to demand in a new contract. That might be helpful in seeing where we're going with our roster.

QuikSand

08-25-2003, 10:39 AM

Hoping this might help, rather than have everyone simming ahead... let me know if anyone needs to know about other players I omitted...

Contract demands for current “key” players:
(showing total cap cost in each year of demand)

QB Clayton – 3.6,3.7,3.7
QB Ater – 3.6, 3.6, 4.3, 5.2
QB Gray – 1.1

RB Farrell – 13.1, 10.3
RB Finley – 8.5, 9.6, 10.9, 12.1

FB Rice – 1.6, 1.6
FB Ackerman – 1.3, 1.3

TE Diana – 2.9, 2.3
TE Parten – 3.1, 3.2, 3.2
TE Wester – 2.3, 2.7

WR Song – 8.3, 9.4, 10.8, 12.2, 13.6
WR Ramsey – 5.6, 6.6, 7.8
WR Stanford – 5.8, 6.9, 8.4, 9.8

T Andrews – 13.8, 15.5, 17.6, 19.7
T Grandon – 3.2, 2.5, 3.0
G Lash – 13.0, 9.5
C Perry – 960, 910
C Winters – 9.4, 9.7, 10.0
G McCord – 7.6, 6.5, 7.4, 6.6, 7.6
G Peterson – 730, 910
T Zorich – 2.3, 2.8, 3.4, 3.9, 4.5, 5.1

DE Martin – 8.1, 8.9, 9.9
DE Bush – 3.7, 4.3, 5.1
DE Hurtado – 3.1, 3.7, 4.5
DT Littlehjohn – 3.7, 4.3, 4.9, 5.6
DT Davidson – 2.3, 2.7, 3.3
DE Emerson – 3.6

LB Brito – 2.8, 2.7
LB Dern – 3.3
LB George – 2.4, 2.8, 3.4
LB Ruiter – 730
LB Francis – 4.0, 4.7, 5.1, 6.0, 6.9

CB Fuller – 9.3, 9.6, 9.9
CB Sims – 9.5, 11.1, 13.1, 15.1, 17.2
CB Bordano – 5.7, 6.6, 6.6
CB Cranga – 930, 1.1
CB Foster – 10.0, 10.3
S Blades – 9.9, 11.5, 13.6
S Rodenhauser – 910, 1.1
S Fyie – 8.7, 10.0, 11.7, 11.5, 13.2
S Reynolds – 3.4, 2.3

Fritz

08-25-2003, 10:43 AM

Looking at our QB situation relative to the division, we are going to be in a little bit of a talent hole unless we make a move in FA.

The best QBs in FA are older, but there are some short term solutions out there.

A few guys that I like who are not great, but are yonger (and cheaper):

Charlie LeGrand-
6 years of service, still developing. We can make him am 85 passer rating QB, which is enough to win.

Darren Fenno-
6 years of service with 4 as the Starting QB for NV. He looks accurate, but I think he may be fragile.

AJ Frueler-
5 Years of Service, started 16 games last year for SAC with a 86.2 passer rating. Still developing and is a good long term prospect. Interception prone, but I like him the best of the FAs. Not sure if his chemestry will mix. This would be who I lobby for.

Zach O'Neill-
5 years of service, starting 16 games for TB. Poor passer rating. No better than what we have.

ADDED:

Ellis Comeaux-
6 years of service, started a few games here and there. Very bright (16 formations) and can pull off a safe short game.

Fritz

08-25-2003, 10:48 AM

Of all the guys on our roster, I see us being able to afford letting go of RB Farrell the easiest. He has a high salary, only 1 year on his current contract, is older, and we have a replacement available.

I suggest to the team that we let him go elsewhere.

Bee

08-25-2003, 10:54 AM

Contract Info:
Martin, Cedric 78 LDE 2018 2022 10 $14,290,000 $11,100,000
Bush, Bruce 91 LDE 2019 2022 2 $1,500,000 $830,000
Hurtado, Kyle 72 LDE 2019 2020 2 $990,000 $860,000
Shields, Walt 95 LDT 2019 ---- 2 $0 $0
Littlejohn, Jack 77 RDT 2019 2023 2 $2,480,000 $1,440,000
Davison, Frank 94 RDT 2018 2020 3 $1,120,000 $1,070,000
Ramsey, Todd 71 RDT 2017 2020 4 $3,150,000 $2,290,000
Emerson, Geoff 76 RDE 2019 ---- 2 $0 $0

DE Martin – 8.1, 8.9, 9.9
DE Bush – 3.7, 4.3, 5.1
DE Hurtado – 3.1, 3.7, 4.5
DT Littlehjohn – 3.7, 4.3, 4.9, 5.6
DT Davidson – 2.3, 2.7, 3.3
DE Emerson – 3.6

So Martin is willing to take a major pay cut, which is good news.

It looks like we will be able to retain all the players mentioned before without any significant increases in salary. I thought we might be able to retain Hurtado for cheap, but his request is a little too much IMO.

Fritz

08-25-2003, 10:55 AM

List of O squad guys under contract I think we should NOT bring back:

QB Steve Ater
RB Farrell
RB Alfred Rogero
G Les Foley
RT Mark Zorich

Fritz

08-25-2003, 11:02 AM

TEs

Julio Diana - Blocking End, $4,690,000, 2 yrs.
We could let him go or keep him. A little overpriced unless we start him, which we could. (Recievers Leader)

Wade Patten - Receiving End, $10,010,000, 3 yrs.
We could let him go or keep him. Overpriced unless we start him, which we could and I would in Diana is let go.

Kim Wester - Receiving End, $5,030,000, 2 yrs.
We could let him go or keep him. A little overpriced unless we start him, which we could. Better blocker than Patten.

Any of these guys could start, and all of them could get the axe. I would suggest keeping 2, Diana and Wester. The third TE would probably be a low cost scrub.

albionmoonlight

08-25-2003, 11:12 AM

I'd Keep LB Brito for the sake of keeping around one of the old guys. I think that we can let the rest of the LBs go and either use the money elsewhere or pick up one good guy and some minsal guys.

Fritz

08-25-2003, 11:15 AM

The problem with WR Song

wants $40,490,000, 5 yrs. If we move him he will count 2 mil vs this years cap and 11 mil vs next years.

(if I understand the resign to keep system we are using).

QuikSand

08-25-2003, 11:42 AM

Okay, off the top of my head, the game requires that we have active:

3 QB
3 RB
3 FB/TE
4 WR
8 OL
1 P
1 K
6 DL
6 LB
4 CB
3 S
= 42 players

(please correct me if I’m wrong)

That leaves a total of 11 more slots on the final team.

I’m hearing so far that we want 2-3 extra OL, maybe a third TE… I’m afraid we’ll run out of slots before long. I think it would be wise if our coordinators gave us some sense of their general tendencies at each position group (how many guys would you be likely to keep on the tam at each position).

In addition, since we are without a special teams coordinator, I will press that we will want at least one guy with measurable PR and KR skill on the team. So, we may have to factor those guys in at the WR or DB slots, too.

Fritz

08-25-2003, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by QuikSand

2 FB
2 TE
= 43 players

I think it would be wise if our coordinators gave us some sense of their general tendencies at each position group (how many guys would you be likely to keep on the tam at each position).

This is what I like:
4 QB (1 res)
4 RB (1 res)
2 FB
2 TE
1 FB/TE (could be res)
4 WR (somethimes 5)
3 T
3 G
2 C
1 T, 1G (could be Res, could slip a C in there)

I keep the 4th QB on the roster because it always seems like one is down.

In addition, since we are without a special teams coordinator, I will press that we will want at least one guy with measurable PR and KR skill on the team. So, we may have to factor those guys in at the WR or DB slots, too.

I never let a starter WR/RB play KR/PR, unless I have an all scrub team. The #3 and lower WR can, as can the #2 RB and lower. Very often I find one rookie free agent RB with PR and one with KR. These are often the #2 & #3 RB. Getting one with both but poor RB skills is fine if we slot him #3. The #4 WR can be mostly a STer.

albionmoonlight

08-25-2003, 12:02 PM

I actually prefer a 3-4 to a 4-3, so I would like, at some point to bring in more LBs. However, I also want to play the hand that we are given, so I think that a 4-3 makes sense for at least next season.

I am also a fan of O-Line depth, so I would like some cushion there.

I would also like 4 DEs.

Once (if) we begin running the 3-4, I would like 7-8 LBs, but 6 is fine if we are running the 4-3.

I've never been a fan of the third TE. If it comes down to a choice between TE and an extra WR, I would go with the extra WR--especially if he can return kicks and punts.

I can live with 4 Cornerbacks, but I would like 4 safeties.

I know that these are pretty general statements, but, as (assumed) coordinator, I am more interested in playing with what we have then in building the team.

More concrete--here is my perfect 53:

3 QB
3 RB
4 FB/TE
7 WR
10 OL
1 P
1 K
7 DL
8 LB
5 CB
4 S

QuikSand

08-25-2003, 12:03 PM

Is it 2 TE and 2 FB? I cannot remember, honestly. I tend to carry 2 of each, and don't recall if that's surplus.

albionmoonlight

08-25-2003, 12:04 PM

Good point about the #4 QB, Fritz. I think that we should have one, too.

Fritz

08-25-2003, 12:11 PM

7 WR?

They will never play. Better to keep an extra TE on the roster so you don't have to go into midseason FA to find a sub.

QuikSand

08-25-2003, 12:35 PM

So, maybe we're looking something like this:

3 QB + 1
3 RB + 1
4 FB/TE + 1
4 WR + 1
8 OL +2
1 P
1 K
6 DL +2
6 LB +1
4 CB
3 S +1
= 43 + 10 players

QuikSand

08-25-2003, 12:47 PM

I thought that we could use this selection as a tool for preliminary roster decisions...

Contract demands for current “key” players:
(showing total cap cost in each year of demand)

QB Clayton – 3.6,3.7,3.7
CUT QB Ater – 3.6, 3.6, 4.3, 5.2
QB Gray – 1.1

CUT RB Farrell – 13.1, 10.3
SIGN RB Finley – 8.5, 9.6, 10.9, 12.1

FB Rice – 1.6, 1.6
FB Ackerman – 1.3, 1.3

SIGN TE Diana – 2.9, 2.3
TE Parten – 3.1, 3.2, 3.2
TE Wester – 2.3, 2.7

SIGN WR Song – 8.3, 9.4, 10.8, 12.2, 13.6
CUT WR Ramsey – 5.6, 6.6, 7.8
WR Stanford – 5.8, 6.9, 8.4, 9.8

T Andrews – 13.8, 15.5, 17.6, 19.7
T Grandon – 3.2, 2.5, 3.0
G Lash – 13.0, 9.5
C Perry – 960, 910
SIGN C Winters – 9.4, 9.7, 10.0
G McCord – 7.6, 6.5, 7.4, 6.6, 7.6
G Peterson – 730, 910
T Zorich – 2.3, 2.8, 3.4, 3.9, 4.5, 5.1

SIGN DE Martin – 8.1, 8.9, 9.9
CUT DE Bush – 3.7, 4.3, 5.1
CUT DE Hurtado – 3.1, 3.7, 4.5
SIGN DT Littlehjohn – 3.7, 4.3, 4.9, 5.6
SIGN DT Davidson – 2.3, 2.7, 3.3
DT Shields - 2.9, 3.4
SIGN DE Emerson – 3.6

SIGN LB Brito – 2.8, 2.7
CUT LB Dern – 3.3
CUT LB George – 2.4, 2.8, 3.4
CUT LB Ruiter – 730
CUT LB Francis – 4.0, 4.7, 5.1, 6.0, 6.9

CB Fuller – 9.3, 9.6, 9.9
CB Sims – 9.5, 11.1, 13.1, 15.1, 17.2
CB Bordano – 5.7, 6.6, 6.6
CB Cranga – 930, 1.1
CB Foster – 10.0, 10.3
S Blades – 9.9, 11.5, 13.6
S Rodenhauser – 910, 1.1
S Fyie – 8.7, 10.0, 11.7, 11.5, 13.2
S Reynolds – 3.4, 2.3

So far, that gives us 8 players for about $40 million this year. We are going to be taking cap hits this year and next - which will have to factor into our salcap decision-making as well.

We have expensive players at OL and DB to consider... and I haven't filled in anything at the QB position, either.

edit - adding WR Song to our signees pushes us to about $50m spent for this year...

Fritz

08-25-2003, 12:54 PM

Cut Song? I think that is a mistake. He will probably never play to the value of his contract, but I can't see taking an 11M hit on a 2nd year guy who could be very productive. I reccomend that we keep him.

albionmoonlight

08-25-2003, 01:06 PM

I like that roster setup.

In terms of actual players, that looks good right now. I'll have to be home with the files before I can really get into the #s.

Bee

08-25-2003, 01:09 PM

Quiksand,

What kind of contract was DT Walt Shields wanting to resign? If it's cheap, it might be worth doing just to keep some stability on the D-line.

QuikSand

08-25-2003, 01:11 PM

All things equal (absent a defined philosophy for coverage schemes), I think the DBs most worthy of a new contract would be:

CB Edgar Bordano - young, but already solid across the board, and willing to sign for less than the established veterans - upside makes him a very good player

S Louie Reynolds - veteran playmaker (ballhawk) at safety, has been reserve but could be starter, good in run support

It apears that KH picked up a couple of FA veterans post-camp to start for one year at CB - thus the two quality guys who are looking for new deals this year.

If we kept Boprdano and Reynolds, there is some possibility that Bordano remains the secondary leader. He's rated 62 in leadership - but right now is FAR behind several guys that I doubt we'll resign. If we manage the position carefully, Bordano could be our guy on a long term deal and the positional leader to boot.

Thos two would cost us something like $10 million this year - and we'd certainly have to spend some money to land another starting-caliber corner, at least.

QuikSand

08-25-2003, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by Bee
Quiksand,

What kind of contract was DT Walt Shields wanting to resign? If it's cheap, it might be worth doing just to keep some stability on the D-line.

He wants 2.9, 3.4 - pretty steep for stability without talent.

Bee

08-25-2003, 01:13 PM

Originally posted by QuikSand
He wants 2.9, 3.4 - pretty steep for stability without talent.

Yep....I was hoping for something around $1 Mil.

Fritz

08-25-2003, 01:36 PM

We can cut all of the TE if need be, or go with TE Wester. There MUST be minsal guys in FA who could do just a well talent wise.

Bee

08-25-2003, 01:40 PM

I wouldn't mind taking a look at free agency before we decide for sure about resigning DE Emerson.

QuikSand

08-25-2003, 01:42 PM

If we re-sign TE Diana, he's practically a lock to be our receivers leader, meaning he has to start. There's also a benefit that he is a Taurus - same as DE Cedric Martin, our presumed defensive front leader.

That means that from those two position groups, we've only knocked off one sign for potential QBs (Libra). There;'s only one Libra among the current crop of FA QBs (Sam Cline) so that's some help, I think.

QuikSand

08-25-2003, 01:43 PM

Originally posted by Bee
I wouldn't mind taking a look at free agency before we decide for sure about resigning DE Emerson.

I am awaiting the TCY file that will enable us to move forward in earnest. But if you want to advance that far in your game to set a sense of what will be out there in free agency, that's fine (and within our rules).

QuikSand

08-25-2003, 01:47 PM

Copying this from the previous page for simplicity's sake:

Contract demands for current “key” players:
(showing total cap cost in each year of demand)

QB Clayton – 3.6,3.7,3.7
CUT QB Ater – 3.6, 3.6, 4.3, 5.2
QB Gray – 1.1

CUT RB Farrell – 13.1, 10.3
SIGN RB Finley – 8.5, 9.6, 10.9, 12.1

FB Rice – 1.6, 1.6
FB Ackerman – 1.3, 1.3

SIGN TE Diana – 2.9, 2.3
TE Parten – 3.1, 3.2, 3.2
TE Wester – 2.3, 2.7

SIGN WR Song – 8.3, 9.4, 10.8, 12.2, 13.6
CUT WR Ramsey – 5.6, 6.6, 7.8
WR Stanford – 5.8, 6.9, 8.4, 9.8

T Andrews – 13.8, 15.5, 17.6, 19.7
T Grandon – 3.2, 2.5, 3.0
G Lash – 13.0, 9.5
SIGN C Perry – 960, 910
SIGN C Winters – 9.4, 9.7, 10.0
G McCord – 7.6, 6.5, 7.4, 6.6, 7.6
SIGN G Peterson – 730, 910
T Zorich – 2.3, 2.8, 3.4, 3.9, 4.5, 5.1
SIGN T Coffey - 730

SIGN DE Martin – 8.1, 8.9, 9.9
CUT DE Bush – 3.7, 4.3, 5.1
CUT DE Hurtado – 3.1, 3.7, 4.5
SIGN DT Littlehjohn – 3.7, 4.3, 4.9, 5.6
SIGN DT Davidson – 2.3, 2.7, 3.3
DT Shields - 2.9, 3.4
SIGN DE Emerson – 3.6

SIGN LB Brito – 2.8, 2.7
CUT LB Dern – 3.3
CUT LB George – 2.4, 2.8, 3.4
CUT LB Ruiter – 730
CUT LB Francis – 4.0, 4.7, 5.1, 6.0, 6.9

CB Fuller – 9.3, 9.6, 9.9
CB Sims – 9.5, 11.1, 13.1, 15.1, 17.2
CB Bordano – 5.7, 6.6, 6.6
CB Cranga – 930, 1.1
CB Foster – 10.0, 10.3
S Blades – 9.9, 11.5, 13.6
S Rodenhauser – 910, 1.1
S Fyie – 8.7, 10.0, 11.7, 11.5, 13.2
S Reynolds – 3.4, 2.3

12 players tagged to sign, about $52m

Fritz

08-25-2003, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by QuikSand
Copying this from the previous page for simplicity's sake:
9 players tagged to sign, about $50m

but how much to cut....

QuikSand

08-25-2003, 01:55 PM

I'm sure that we'll end up with a cap hit of something like $20m or so this year... but I also suspect that it won't matter. I don't think we're going to completely fill the roster with expensive free agents this season -- we neesd to try to get the books back into the black, and there will only be so many good fits among the free agent ranks. I'm guessing it will take us 2-3 seasons before we approach the salary cap.

Fritz

08-25-2003, 02:03 PM

dola

LT Don Grandon looks like a value at $7,690,000, 3 yrs. He does have a conflict with ther proposed leader (Winters).

C Lewis Perry is pretty good at $1,640,000, 2 yrs. (no bonus) With the exception of the leadership aspect, he could start and save us a ton of cap space this year.

RG Rufus Peterson would be worth the $1,640,000, 2 yrs. (no bonus)

take these three along with and Finley, Song, and Stafford and you have a "legacy" squad with a cost of 27.1 Mil.

Bee

08-25-2003, 02:04 PM

I didn't think we could have a conflict going into the season?

QuikSand

08-25-2003, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by Fritz
Looking at our QB situation relative to the division, we are going to be in a little bit of a talent hole unless we make a move in FA.

The best QBs in FA are older, but there are some short term solutions out there.

A few guys that I like who are not great, but are yonger (and cheaper):

Charlie LeGrand-
6 years of service, still developing. We can make him am 85 passer rating QB, which is enough to win.

Darren Fenno-
6 years of service with 4 as the Starting QB for NV. He looks accurate, but I think he may be fragile.

AJ Frueler-
5 Years of Service, started 16 games last year for SAC with a 86.2 passer rating. Still developing and is a good long term prospect. Interception prone, but I like him the best of the FAs. Not sure if his chemestry will mix. This would be who I lobby for.

Zach O'Neill-
5 years of service, starting 16 games for TB. Poor passer rating. No better than what we have.

ADDED:

Ellis Comeaux-
6 years of service, started a few games here and there. Very bright (16 formations) and can pull off a safe short game.

Some chemistry thoughts here:

Freuler is a Virgo, which conflicts with Gemini
Comeaux is a Gemini, which conflicts with Virgo
LeGrand is a Leo, which conflicts with Capricorn
Fenno is also a Leo.

QuikSand

08-25-2003, 02:09 PM

Originally posted by Bee
I didn't think we could have a conflict going into the season?

Fritz is backhandedly suggesting that we release our big money starting C who is also the position leader, and instead go with the cheaper backup there. That would allos us to sign the T who has the conflict with the current leader.

QuikSand

08-25-2003, 02:10 PM

The four affinity groups are:
Aries, Gemini, Scorpio
Sagittarius, Leo, Virgo
Pisces, Taurus, Cancer
Aquarius, Libra, Capricorn

And the six pairs of opposed signs are:
Aries - Aquarius
Taurus - Libra
Gemini - Virgo
Scorpio - Pisces
Capricorn - Leo
Cancer - Sagittarius

Fritz

08-25-2003, 02:11 PM

Originally posted by QuikSand
I'm sure that we'll end up with a cap hit of something like $20m or so this year... but I also suspect that it won't matter.

what about the hit for the year after this?

If we cut
QB Clayton 4.9M
LT Andrews 9.9M
LG Foley 3.5M
RG McCord 3.3M

QuikSand

08-25-2003, 02:14 PM

I'm thinking we'll probably need to re-sign Clayton, but will release the other three... plus RB Finlay will take us for another $10m or so... ouch.

Or, perhaps the specter of that much cap punishment next season forces our hand to keep on a few of thee guys we otherwise wouldn't.

My inclination is to clean out, and build around "our guys" but maybe that won't be the smartest thing to do in every case.

Fritz

08-25-2003, 02:24 PM

attached is the FA list with signs (xls 98). It is set up for filtering, which should help.

Fritz

08-25-2003, 03:02 PM

A proposal:

We are going to be in cap hell for two season, so there is no way we can get both sides of the ball right. It seems logical that we will be more competative if we focus on one side of the ball. Since we are shy a decent QB, I think that def should get first priority when it comes to funding (and thus player retention).

Cut everybody from the O and go with scrubs if need be but let us give albionmoonlight all the tools we can to do well (or hang himself).

QuikSand

08-25-2003, 03:36 PM

While the tank-the-offense is not a ridiculous proposal, are we perhaps overstating the cap issues a bit much?

I'm used to playing variants on the empty cupboard idea, and routinely field teams with 25-50% of the cap space still available. Even if we end up absorbing $20 this year and $30m next year in cap hits - I'm not sure that's all that big a deal. Yes, it keeps us two or three quality players short of where we could have been... but it's not like we won't have anything at all to work with.

I think we can field a decent, probably shallow, team for two seasons with the cap problems we face by using lots of marginal fill-ins and "good chemistry" guys on the roster. That means not overpaying for tons of mediocre players... but instead accepting that some of our guys are going to be very low on the talent scale. We pick up ten guys who won't ever be in demand, and they can becoem anchors for our future plans with cohesion and team chemistry, because they should never demand big money from us.

Bee

08-25-2003, 04:30 PM

Originally posted by QuikSand
I am awaiting the TCY file that will enable us to move forward in earnest. But if you want to advance that far in your game to set a sense of what will be out there in free agency, that's fine (and within our rules).

After taking a peek, I say we resign Emerson. There were a couple players that were slightly better for about the same salary, but I like the fact that Emerson has the affinity with our Defensive Front Leader and I'd like to see how that plays out over another season.

Fritz

08-25-2003, 05:03 PM

Originally posted by QuikSand
While the tank-the-offense is not a ridiculous proposal, are we perhaps overstating the cap issues a bit much?

I don't think we should tank at all, but istead of holes on both sides of the ball I think we can field one very solid unit while going through cap jail, and then build the other. What I am suggesting is that we avoid is making heavy commitments on both sides of the ball, while not getting anything right.

Swaggs

08-25-2003, 11:38 PM

Originally posted by Fritz
what about the hit for the year after this?

If we cut
LT Andrews 9.9M
LG Foley 3.5M
RG McCord 3.3M

Are we considering not resigning Winters and releasing these three?

Andrews I can live without, due to his cap value. But I think it would be crazy to release him this early in his contract. It makes no sense and is not very realistic.

Foley, we need to dump immediately.

McCord is affordable, assists in our cohesion, and is a solid starter.

Perhaps I misunderstood our goals, but aren't we going for cohesion and team leadership? Making these moves completely obliterates most of the talent we have on the OL, erases our cohesion (almost completely), and dumps our leader on his butt. What is the purpose?

Fritz

08-26-2003, 06:40 AM

Originally posted by Swaggs
Are we considering not resigning Winters and releasing these three?

...

Perhaps I misunderstood our goals, but aren't we going for cohesion and team leadership? Making these moves completely obliterates most of the talent we have on the OL, erases our cohesion (almost completely), and dumps our leader on his butt. What is the purpose?

Swaggs,

The only person who has seriously talked about not picking Winters back up is me. I think the rest of GT3 is fine with keeping him on.

QuikSand

08-26-2003, 08:17 AM

Originally posted by Swaggs
Perhaps I misunderstood our goals, but aren't we going for cohesion and team leadership? Making these moves completely obliterates most of the talent we have on the OL, erases our cohesion (almost completely), and dumps our leader on his butt. What is the purpose?

I guess there are different ways to try to build cohesion (which I didn't envision as a big part of this, but definitely has become on). One is to retain all the leaders on the current team as best we can. The other is to get players we want, and to keep them around.

I guess it's a matter of whether your goal is to max out cohesion in 2020 or in, say, 2025 or 2030.

In my mind, I'm just afraid that we're getting to the point of having too many conflicting goals. OL is a perfect case in point - we have several high-quality players there. If we want to focus on cohesion, then we want to keep guys like C WInters and T Andrews.

But at the same time, we say we're trying to build team chemistry, and have adopted a rule of no tam conflicts. These two players have a conflict. What to do?

My thinking has always been that we want to basically be starting over here - that's the genesis of the "new contracts" rule -- I didn't want us to benefit from anything the previous KH regime put into place.

So, my vision has basically been we build this team under tight financial rules that will require us to conserev money, use a lot of marginal players, and resort to spending real time with the game plan and team chemistry in order to be good (because we won't be able to get a huge advantage in talent over other teams).

If we build a good chemistry team up, then we'll want to keep those guys around - meaning more and more cohesion ought to be an obvious by-product, but not necessarily our first consideration.

Anyway - it's not just my vision that counts here, but that's what I have been thinking all along. If we collectively want to embrace a different philosophy and do more with immediate cohesion, that's certainly okay by me.

QuikSand

08-26-2003, 08:30 AM

Originally posted by Fritz
The only person who has seriously talked about not picking Winters back up is me. I think the rest of GT3 is fine with keeping him on.

Actually, Fritz - I think your idea of keeping our LT instead, and going with the backup instead of C Winters is a pretty good one. It doesn't seem to be consensus (and I haven't reflected it on the SIGN/CUT list), but I personally would favor it.

QuikSand

08-26-2003, 08:35 AM

Open question to current participants:

The steam seems to have died out on the TCY side of this. Do we want to just go forward using any old TCY draft file?

How important would it be to you all to see the TCY side of things? (To have the saved game, and be able to review player stats, etc)

I would like to get this moving forward before we just die on the vine here - this seems to be the bext hurdle to get past.

In fact - if nobody cares, we don't even have to use TCY files at all. Initially, that was one of my germ ideas, but it may not be all that meaningful after all.

Bee

08-26-2003, 09:07 AM

Originally posted by QuikSand
Actually, Fritz - I think your idea of keeping our LT instead, and going with the backup instead of C Winters is a pretty good one. It doesn't seem to be consensus (and I haven't reflected it on the SIGN/CUT list), but I personally would favor it.

I don't care what you guys do with the o-line, just give my guys some bodies to go up against in practice. :D

Swaggs

08-26-2003, 09:07 AM

I'm fine with dropping the TCY element altogether and going with FOF4-generated drafts. I have no strong feelings either way, but perhaps the TCY aspect is something we could add if we get enough steam going.

primelord

08-26-2003, 09:08 AM

Just an FYI guys I am going to have to pull out of this. (Not that I have been of any help yet anyway) But time constraints are going to be more than I expected and rather than take a role and then not have enough time to fill it I will just bow out now. I'll be reading though and if I get more time int he future and there is a place for me to jump in I will. Thanks.

Bee

08-26-2003, 09:16 AM

Originally posted by QuikSand
Open question to current participants:

The steam seems to have died out on the TCY side of this. Do we want to just go forward using any old TCY draft file?

How important would it be to you all to see the TCY side of things? (To have the saved game, and be able to review player stats, etc)

I would like to get this moving forward before we just die on the vine here - this seems to be the bext hurdle to get past.

In fact - if nobody cares, we don't even have to use TCY files at all. Initially, that was one of my germ ideas, but it may not be all that meaningful after all.

I don't see a benefit to using TCY files without there being either house rules involving TCY or some link to TCY. The TCY end of things don't seem to be moving so I say we move ahead with just using game generated draft files.

To be honest, I'm a little concerned with the lack of interest we are getting with the FOF Groupthink. I'm not sure if we'll be able to generate enough interest to actually keep this end of things going. :(

albionmoonlight

08-26-2003, 09:22 AM

I have no interest in the TCY side of it. I think that we should not spread ourselves too thin. It's not like we have a waiting list of 30 people wanting to join GT3.

I want to maximize cohesion in 2025 or 2030 rather than now.

I would rather be really really bad now, but keep a few players and some cap room with which to build in the future.

I thought that C Winters and T Andrews had an affinity? What am I missing?

QuikSand

08-26-2003, 10:47 AM

Originally posted by albionmoonlight
I thought that C Winters and T Andrews had an affinity? What am I missing?

They have a conflict, Winters is the position leader and they have crossed signs. So, under our current rules, they cannot both stay (assuming Winters remains the leader, which seems likely).

albionmoonlight

08-26-2003, 10:59 AM

Oh. Tough call. Winters is cheaper, but Andrews is younger. I think that I would keep Andrews because he will be around long enough to groom someone under him.

However, Winters has been with us for eight years, and if he can still play at a high level for 2-3 years, that may be all we need from him.

I'm fine with whatever way the team decides to go.

VPI97

08-26-2003, 11:09 AM

Originally posted by QuikSand
Open question to current participants:

The steam seems to have died out on the TCY side of this. Do we want to just go forward using any old TCY draft file? QS, Here are the files from my TCY dynasty that you asked for.

2019 Draft File (http://www.nbalive-asl.com/temp/2019_Draft_File.zip)

Saved Game - End of 2019 Season (http://www.nbalive-asl.com/temp/End_of_2019_Season.zip)

QuikSand

08-26-2003, 11:16 AM

Fellow GroupThinkers, I have used the TCY draft file to advance us into the free agemcy period. And now, we can start the process of makign decisions about where we're going to go - both within our current rosters, with available free agent players, and with potential rookies (though recall, we lack a first round pick this year).

File #1 of 2 attached

QuikSand

08-26-2003, 11:17 AM

File #2 of 2 attached

QuikSand

08-26-2003, 11:22 AM

Well, among those who are involved so far... does anyone want to sign up to become head of rookie scouting? Swaggs, Bee - as far as I'm concerned that job is available if either of you want it.

Swaggs

08-26-2003, 11:26 AM

Originally posted by QuikSand
They have a conflict, Winters is the position leader and they have crossed signs. So, under our current rules, they cannot both stay (assuming Winters remains the leader, which seems likely).

Quik, I think you are confusing Andrews (who is a much better player but has a massive contract) with Grandon (a bit above average) in their relationships with Winters. Andrews has an "affinity" for Winters, while Grandon has a "conflict" with Winters.

See my notes on the two players:

Tackles:

Willie Andrews: Andrews is an interesting player. He has very good, almost excellent, talent, but seems almost indifferent as to the success of the team. Almost as if he is going through the motions. We signed him to an enormous deal two years ago, and it may become an albatross in future years (it increases from roughly $10.5M to roughly $16.5M over the next four years), due to his somewhat advanced age of 32. Hopefully he can remain a solid contributor over the course of the contract. Andrews is a very good overall player, very consistent and pretty durable. He should start for us at LT and do a nice job. He is very close friends with center R.J. Winters, so not signing Winters could adversely affect his play.

Dan Grandon: Grandon is a guy that we will need to keep a very close eye on this preseason. He is a very enigmatic player. Obviously he is talented, as we took him in the first round in 2016. However, he is not a very good pass blocker, but he is such a strong run blocker, it is hard to keep him off the field. That said, he has never been able to win a starting job in his four seasons here. His talent, potential, contract, and the fact that the alternatives are not great, indicate that he should be our starter at RT (provided we plan to run off tackle often). However, he and R.J. Winters absolutely hate one another. At last season's camp, they had to be pulled off of one another after he criticized Winters in the newspapers. However, part of the problem is that Gandon is a very strong leader himself and may be resentful that he has not been able to establish himself and gain his teammates' respect in the way that Winters has. If we are going for peace and harmony and plan to resign Winters, we may consider releasing Grandon and calling his career with the Flyers a bust.

QuikSand

08-26-2003, 11:28 AM

Okay, here is a tentaive list of CUTS - I'm offering this up for genral consumption before I move ahead with them. Please voice any objections.

This doesn't necessarily mean these are the only cuts, but this will give us a clearer sense of our immediate financials once we execute... er, effect these moves.

- - -

RB Farrell
S Fyie
G Lash
G Foley
G McCord
QB Ater
RB Rogero
WR Stanford
LB Francis
K McDaniel
TE Parten
TE Wester
P Phillips
T Zorich
LB Baxter
DE Hurtado
CB Cranga
DE Bush

QuikSand

08-26-2003, 11:29 AM

Originally posted by Swaggs
Quik, I think you are confusing Andrews (who is a much better player but has a massive contract) with Grandon (a bit above average) in their relationships with Winters. Andrews has an "affinity" for Winters, while Grandon has a "conflict" with Winters.

You're absolutely right. Sorry about that.

QuikSand

08-26-2003, 11:31 AM

So, on the OL - does that mean that we are probably looking at either keeping both starters (at LT and C) or going with both backups? (Since the backup KLT conflicts with the starting C)

Bee

08-26-2003, 11:34 AM

Originally posted by QuikSand
Well, among those who are involved so far... does anyone want to sign up to become head of rookie scouting? Swaggs, Bee - as far as I'm concerned that job is available if either of you want it.

No thanks. I'm way to unreliable for any position of responsibility. :D

QuikSand

08-26-2003, 11:38 AM

Continuing my work on the secondary - here's a free agent I'd like to target, assuming this fits with our overall resource plan. CB Joseph Henderson is a 6th year player, who started last season for Pensacola and posted 6 interceptions. His coverage skills are improving, and we could lock him up for around $5m a year, I suspect. He's a Leo, which works fine with the other two DBs we have tagged to re-sign, so we wouldn't anticipate conflicts (although the position leader role is unsettled).

Bee

08-26-2003, 11:41 AM

Originally posted by QuikSand
So, on the OL - does that mean that we are probably looking at either keeping both starters (at LT and C) or going with both backups? (Since the backup KLT conflicts with the starting C)

Is there any reason not to keep the starters?

Fritz

08-26-2003, 11:42 AM

attached is an expanded spreadsheet that combines most of the FA information found on the various tabs. If you know how to filter and sort it can be of some help.

I work in access, so if you would like my simple DB just ask.

What good is it?

With this I have found a LT, Timothy John in FA. He has 6 years under his belt, is scouted as a 31 current, 51 potential, and has a leadership of 100 (and a loyalty of 90). He will be cheap to pick up.

He is good enough (not great) to start, although with lowish endurance, can cement his role as a leader early, and remain the leader for as long as he is with the team. I would consider him a real asset under our structure.

With this tool I can also tell that 3 other FA OLs track well for us. (8 years or less service, 40 or better future, afinity)

LT JR Blair (Libra) 47/47
LG Hauserman 29/41
C Bucky Farr 42/42

Also, the two best QBs for this LT leader would be

Hutchins, Chuck
Sparks, Heath

both decent looking and affordable.

this is fun

Neat Stuff

QuikSand

08-26-2003, 11:45 AM

alb, there are two stud OLBs in this free agent class, Odegard and Kasica. Are you inclined to pursue one of those guys? It looks like it would take a full $10 million or so to get them. I agree with you that this is a serious need position for us, but that is a lot to spend.

From my years with Lake Erie, I can put in a good word for Leroy Peterson, who is a pass rush specialist, but doesn't have nagligible skills elsewhere. Dig back a few years to see that he put in a pretty solid full time season with Nashua. He can be had pretty cheaply, it would appear.

If our focus is run support, we coudl look to J.J. Mills, who would also come cheaply. He won't help in getting after the QB, but if we need an extra hand in stopping the running game, Mills ought to help - he has a career 15.9 TkPct.

QuikSand

08-26-2003, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by Bee
Is there any reason not to keep the starters?

Money - both guys earn a fortune. But I still think it's a viable option.

Bee

08-26-2003, 11:49 AM

Anyone else feel like Fritz just modernized free agency scouting?

I feel obsolete. ;)

QuikSand

08-26-2003, 11:54 AM

Originally posted by Fritz
With this I have found a LT, Timothy John in FA. He has 6 years under his belt, is scouted as a 31 current, 51 potential, and has a leadership of 100 (and a loyalty of 90). He will be cheap to pick up.

He is good enough (not great) to start, although with lowish endurance, can cement his role as a leader early, and remain the leader for as long as he is with the team. I would consider him a real asset under our structure.

As an Aquarius, assuming he became our OL leader, he would necessitate that we dump RT Coffey, who is currently on our "sign" list. Just an observation - I see Coffey as a very easily replaceable player.

albionmoonlight

08-26-2003, 11:57 AM

I would be for keeping both OL starters. They are both older, so they will not be around for long. My thinking is that they will be going gently into that good night right about the time that we could use their cap room (and it lets us groom a young OL under them in the interim).

I don't think that I should be downloading these files at work, so I will have to wait until tonight to look at the FA situation.

LB is our biggest need on D, so if we can find a stud there, I would be inclined to go for him (it would be the biggest upgrade available). I would like at least one LB to be a stud.

I can give more input when I look at the files.

QuikSand

08-26-2003, 11:58 AM

So, it seems like we have some big decisions to make on the OL. Swaggs has given us an excellent scouting report on the lay of the land - but we have to decide how much we want to invest in this area for the short term (as our top two players are both expensive, long-term veterans).

Seems to me the options are something like:

- Re-sign both C Winters and T Andrews, invest in their affinity and get what we can out of them both for the next few years

- Re-sign C Winters and perhaps go with the free agent T Johns, as suggested above by Fritz's "tool"

- Let C Winters go, and instead go with our current backup LT Grandon, who may become the position leader, and probably stick with curretn backup C Perry as our much cheaper starter

- Essentially abandon the offense entirely for the next year or two, and try focus nearly all our resources on the defense (still on the table, though hasn't really been "seconded")

This seems like a good area to focus our first collective decision, which involves all the components of hat we've been trying to incorporate in this challenge. Am I missing viable options here?

What say you all?

Bee

08-26-2003, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by QuikSand
as suggested above by Fritz's "tool"

What say you all?

I say we appoint Fritz's "tool" scouting director. :D

Swaggs

08-26-2003, 12:09 PM

An idea, that I think would be both helpful and fun, would be for one of us (presumably QS), that would hold the title of GM, and would act as the overall administrator of the team, which is what he is more or less doing now, anyway. Perhaps the GM should set some yearly and long range goals (on field success, financial success, etc.) and remind ourselves of them prior to each season.

I am fine with building for the future (and hopefully didn't sound too abrasive in some of my posts), but I hate to think we will not ttry to field a competitive team each year. That said, I just want to make sure I am on the same page and in-line with the rest of the franchise, be it trying to win at any costs (boo!) or trying out some new spins like the cohesion/leadership/handicapped finances angle.

Fritz

08-26-2003, 12:10 PM

Originally posted by Bee
I say we appoint Fritz's "tool" scouting director.

If I get a chance (I am in the middle of losing my job) I will webify my scouting data.

A note on the data: The scouting is just the overall scout number, which is very suspect. Because of this you still need to lay the ole eyeball down, but it does let you filter.

Swaggs

08-26-2003, 12:15 PM

Originally posted by QuikSand

- Re-sign both C Winters and T Andrews, invest in their affinity and get what we can out of them both for the next few years

Just so we are clear, T Andrews is in the eary stages of a mammoth contract given to him by the previous ownership group. He is still owed $13.2M in signing bonuses over the next four seasons, so I think we would be better off in letting him play this season (with a cap hit of roughly $10.5M) than to release him and pay $6.6M this season and $6.6M next for him not to play for us. After this season, releasing Andrews and his signing bonus (factored with his increasing base salary) would be a little more palatable.

QuikSand

08-26-2003, 12:17 PM

Originally posted by Swaggs
An idea, that I think would be both helpful and fun, would be for one of us (presumably QS), that would hold the title of GM, and would act as the overall administrator of the team, which is what he is more or less doing now, anyway. Perhaps the GM should set some yearly and long range goals (on field success, financial success, etc.) and remind ourselves of them prior to each season.

Gee, and I have a backup screen name that woud be just dandy for such a role...

Fritz

08-26-2003, 12:17 PM

A very good point swaggs.

Fritz

08-26-2003, 12:22 PM

More on Swaggs excvellent point about our LT.

he is a Capricorn. The list of OL and QB I provided above work well for establishing affinity.

C Winters fits in the band as well, although he will probably remain the leader even with the LT mentioned above on the roster.

QuikSand

08-26-2003, 12:32 PM

Originally posted by Swaggs
Just so we are clear, T Andrews is in the eary stages of a mammoth contract given to him by the previous ownership group. He is still owed $13.2M in signing bonuses over the next four seasons, so I think we would be better off in letting him play this season (with a cap hit of roughly $10.5M) than to release him and pay $6.6M this season and $6.6M next for him not to play for us. After this season, releasing Andrews and his signing bonus (factored with his increasing base salary) would be a little more palatable.

Well, yes and no, I think.

If we are sticking with our rule that any player we keep must receive a new contract, then that means retaining LT Andrews requires giving him a new contract right away. That will give him an additional $15 million in signing bonus that will carry out through the next four seasons.

With that, if we then decided to cut him next season, we'd not only be up against the $3.3 + $6.6m from his current contract's signing bonus, but we'd also face another $3.8 + $5.7m from the new one he'd receive this season.

So, if my math is correct (using his current demands), then here are the cut scenarios:

Cut him in 2020 (now) - eat $3.3 in 2020, $9.9 in 2021
Cut him in 2021 - eat $7.1m in 2021, $12.3m in 2022

It just seems to me that our choices are either to commit to him long term (at least through the four year contract) or else let him go now and eat his current bonus. I don't think re-signing him and then cutting him next year is viable.

My inclination is to re-up with both Winters and Andrews, make our investment there, and go on with that.

QuikSand

08-26-2003, 12:44 PM

Originally posted by QuikSand
If we are sticking with our rule that any player we keep must receive a new contract...

Or, pehraps we ought to waive this rule in such a case (a player who already is heavily burdened by a fairly new, heavily bonus-laden contract).

Fritz

08-26-2003, 12:46 PM

FWIW, RB Finley is a Libra and would fit with the line we are building.

Our selection of supporting RB that would allow Finley to become the leader is very poor.

FB Rondell Kilowoski (Aquarius) would be a good fit for a backfield leadership role. The FB has 11 years of service with 3 "All League" awards. He has a leadership of 80 and is idolized by fans. This is guy is strictly a 2 down blocking back.

Bee

08-26-2003, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by QuikSand
Or, pehraps we ought to waive this rule in such a case (a player who already is heavily burdened by a fairly new, heavily bonus-laden contract).

I say we keep the rule "as is".

QuikSand

08-26-2003, 12:56 PM

Getting a little adrift, but I can't help myself. We definitely ought to have a strong look at WR Kenneth Carr. He's not a ratings standout, but he has been very productive the last few years. In 2017, he started 16 games and caught 81 passes for 1,346 yards and 12 TDs. He followed that up in 2018 with 70-936, 5 TD for a less potent Fort Worth offense. Manhattan used him as a backup last season, but he has shown he can be productive.

Plus - two bonuses here:

- If TE Diana is going to be our position leader, Carr will have an affinity with him (Pisces-Taurus). it's possible that Carr could become the position leader, but that should work out okay, too.

- Carr is also a solid kick returner, so he would help fill that role as well - which might help us conserve roster spots for specialists.

Fritz

08-26-2003, 12:58 PM

As much as I would like to, keeping SE Stanford (L 87, Virgo) and FL Song (L 62, Gemini) just will not work out. Virgos and Gemini fight.

We could bring in a Cancer, Sagittarius, Scorpio, or Pisces TE with a high (88 +) leadership rating and hope he takes over. This would make the two WR nuetral.

edit after Quiks post.

Diana will be overshadowed by Stanford if the SE gets much starting time (I think). I like the player, but stanford might be a chemistry headache.

QuikSand

08-26-2003, 12:59 PM

Originally posted by QuikSand
Okay, here is a tentaive list of CUTS - I'm offering this up for genral consumption before I move ahead with them. Please voice any objections.

This doesn't necessarily mean these are the only cuts, but this will give us a clearer sense of our immediate financials once we execute... er, effect these moves.

- - -

RB Farrell
S Fyie
G Lash
G Foley
G McCord
QB Ater
RB Rogero
WR Stanford
LB Francis
K McDaniel
TE Parten
TE Wester
P Phillips
T Zorich
LB Baxter
DE Hurtado
CB Cranga
DE Bush

Any objection to the cuts on this list? Going ahead with them might give us a slightly clearer financial picture...

Fritz

08-26-2003, 01:02 PM

1 vote for go for it

Bee

08-26-2003, 01:06 PM

Originally posted by Fritz
go for it
ditto

albionmoonlight

08-26-2003, 01:06 PM

2 votes

Swaggs

08-26-2003, 01:12 PM

Lash and McCord looked like our starters at Guard.

If everyone else is for this move, I'm okay with it.

QuikSand

08-26-2003, 01:15 PM

Here's our updated roster review - followng our first wave of "cleaning house."

Front Office Football: The Fourth Edition
Kitty Hawk Flyers Roster, Contract View

Player # Pos OnTm EndCnt Exp Cap Cost Save if Rlse
Clayton, Jon 14 QB 2017 2022 4 $5,680,000 $3,190,000
Gray, Ray 11 QB 2019 ---- 4 $0 $0
Finley, Daniel 20 RB 2018 2023* 3 $5,830,000 $2,570,000
McGinnis, K.C. 47 RB 2017 UFA 6 $0 $0
Rice, Joey 24 FB 2019 UFA 8 $0 $0
Ackerman, Byron 40 FB 2015 UFA 6 $0 $0
Diana, Julio 80 TE 2019 2020 12 $2,350,000 $1,800,000
Song, Peter 84 FL 2019 2024* 2 $4,990,000 $2,240,000
Ramsey, Howie 89 FL 2019 UFA 8 $0 $0
Boroniec, Al 87 FL 2019 ---- 2 $0 $0
Chapman, Doug 86 SE 2018 ---- 3 $0 $0
Andrews, Willie 65 LT 2018 2023 11 $10,460,000 $7,160,000
Grandon, Don 67 LT 2016 2020 5 $4,750,000 $3,710,000
Perry, Lewis 57 C 2019 2020 2 $1,060,000 $830,000
Winters, R.J. 54 C 2012 UFA 13 $0 $0
Peterson, Rufus 68 RG 2019 2020 2 $860,000 $860,000
Coffey, Darren 63 RT 2019 ---- 2 $0 $0
Martin, Cedric 78 LDE 2018 2022 10 $14,290,000 $11,100,000
Shields, Walt 95 LDT 2019 ---- 2 $0 $0
Ramsey, Todd 71 RDT 2017 2020 4 $3,150,000 $2,290,000
Littlejohn, Jack 77 RDT 2019 2023 2 $2,480,000 $1,440,000
Davison, Frank 94 RDT 2018 2020 3 $1,120,000 $1,070,000
Emerson, Geoff 76 RDE 2019 ---- 2 $0 $0
Brito, Byron 58 SLB 2018 2020 3 $1,720,000 $1,130,000
Dern, Gino 55 MLB 2014 UFA 9 $0 $0
George, Leland 56 MLB 2014 UFA 7 $0 $0
Ruiter, Vinny 59 MLB 2019 ---- 2 $0 $0
Fuller, Bernard 32 LCB 2019 UFA 10 $0 $0
Sims, Teddy 26 LCB 2019 UFA 8 $0 $0
Bordano, Edgar 29 RCB 2018 2021 3 $3,060,000 $2,040,000
Foster, Johnny 28 RCB 2019 UFA 13 $0 $0
Blades, Jermaine 37 SS 2019 UFA 7 $0 $0
Rodenhauser, Andre 48 SS 2018 ---- 3 $0 $0
Reynolds, Louie 30 FS 2018 2020 11 $4,130,000 $3,100,000

$$ - player is in starting lineup, ## - player is inactive.

Players Under Contract: 15
On Active Roster: 15

Salary Cap: $169,300,000
Cap Room: $86,070,000
Maximum for New Player: $79,350,000
Cap Room Lost (to old contracts): $17,300,000

Cap Room Lost Next Year (to old contracts): $12,940,000
Cap Room Required Next Year: $66,680,000

On an unrelate dnote, this is the first time that my print-to-file function worked properly... I wonder if the latest Windows Service Pack might have fixed my first-character truncation problem? Anyway, hooray!

Fritz

08-26-2003, 01:22 PM

can we resign some guys that we know are keepers?

QuikSand

08-26-2003, 01:26 PM

Originally posted by Swaggs
Lash and McCord looked like our starters at Guard.

Re-signing those two, along with the emerging plan to retain Winters and Andrews at C and LT, would mean we'd have $44 million locked up in four guys on our offensive line, even before we filled in the remaining 4-6 positions. I just don't think that's workable without this turning into some sort of "gimmick" team.

We're still going to be heavily invested in our offensive line, but releasing those two frees up opportunity for us to build our good chemistry around Winters and Andrews.

Fritz

08-26-2003, 01:32 PM

If we are picking Winters up we need to move LT Grandon (conflict)

QuikSand

08-26-2003, 01:38 PM

Okay, I have worked out new deals with most of the players that we seem to have agreed are “keepers.” I tagged the remaining ones with a question mark – those are the players we still have to decide about.

Front Office Football: The Fourth Edition
Kitty Hawk Flyers Roster, Contract View

Player # Pos OnTm EndCnt Exp Cap Cost Save if Rlse
Clayton, Jon 14 QB 2017 2022 4 $3,580,000 $1,090,000
Gray, Ray 11 QB 2019 ---- 4 $0 $0
Finley, Daniel 20 RB 2018 2023 3 $8,260,000 $4,000,000
McGinnis, K.C. 47 RB 2017 UFA 6 $0 $0
Rice, Joey 24 FB 2019 UFA 8 $0 $0
Ackerman, Byron 40 FB 2015 UFA 6 $0 $0
Diana, Julio 80 TE 2019 2021 12 $2,800,000 $1,800,000
Song, Peter 84 FL 2019 2024 2 $7,750,000 $4,000,000
Ramsey, Howie 89 FL 2019 UFA 8 $0 $0
Boroniec, Al 87 FL 2019 ---- 2 $0 $0
Chapman, Doug 86 SE 2018 ---- 3 $0 $0
Andrews, Willie ? 65 LT 2018 2023 11 $10,460,000 $7,160,000
Grandon, Don ? 67 LT 2016 2020 5 $4,750,000 $3,710,000
Perry, Lewis 57 C 2019 2021 2 $960,000 $730,000
Winters, R.J. ? 54 C 2012 UFA 13 $0 $0
Peterson, Rufus 68 RG 2019 2021 2 $730,000 $730,000
Coffey, Darren 63 RT 2019 2020 2 $730,000 $730,000
Martin, Cedric 78 LDE 2018 2022 10 $8,350,000 $3,500,000
Shields, Walt 95 LDT 2019 ---- 2 $0 $0
Littlejohn, Jack 77 RDT 2019 2023 2 $3,790,000 $2,200,000
Ramsey, Todd 71 RDT 2017 2020 4 $3,150,000 $2,290,000
Davison, Frank 94 RDT 2018 2022 3 $2,340,000 $1,750,000
Emerson, Geoff 76 RDE 2019 2020 2 $3,550,000 $2,920,000
Brito, Byron 58 SLB 2018 2021 3 $2,780,000 $1,690,000
Dern, Gino 55 MLB 2014 UFA 9 $0 $0
George, Leland 56 MLB 2014 UFA 7 $0 $0
Ruiter, Vinny 59 MLB 2019 ---- 2 $0 $0
Fuller, Bernard 32 LCB 2019 UFA 10 $0 $0
Sims, Teddy 26 LCB 2019 UFA 8 $0 $0
Bordano, Edgar 29 RCB 2018 2022 3 $5,020,000 $3,000,000
Foster, Johnny 28 RCB 2019 UFA 13 $0 $0
Blades, Jermaine 37 SS 2019 UFA 7 $0 $0
Rodenhauser, Andre 48 SS 2018 ---- 3 $0 $0
Reynolds, Louie 30 FS 2018 2022 11 $3,190,000 $1,800,000

Players Under Contract: 17
On Active Roster: 17

Salary Cap: $169,300,000
Cap Room: $79,810,000
Maximum for New Player: $73,090,000
Cap Room Lost (to old contracts): $17,300,000

Cap Room Lost Next Year (to old contracts): $12,940,000
Cap Room Required Next Year: $75,540,000

VPI97

08-26-2003, 01:41 PM

Originally posted by QuikSand
I wonder if the latest Windows Service Pack might have fixed my first-character truncation problem? Anyway, hooray! If you're on Windows 2000, you are correct. Service Pack 4 addressed this long-time problem.

Fritz

08-26-2003, 01:48 PM

other than winters, who among our players without a contract are we going to work on keeping?

QuikSand

08-26-2003, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by Fritz
other than winters, who among our players without a contract are we going to work on keeping?

I don't see anyone else on that list who I think we plan to keep. It's conceivable that one or two become late fill-ins if we have no other options, but I think it's really just Winters.

We put in a big offer to Winters to lock him up, and assuming we get him done, we let go T Grandon, as required. Then, I'll re-do our del with T Andrews, and we'll be all set to focus on outside players. (Net additional cost for this year - something like $10 million, I guess)

Swaggs

08-26-2003, 02:18 PM

I am willing to work with whoever. I do not mind lobbying for high draft picks at OL if we do decide to completely rebuild the entire offense.

On a side note, what would type of duties would come with being head of rookie scouting? It sounds fun, but I would obviously have a tough time doing reports on the hundreds and hundreds of players availalbe? Curious on how it was handled in the past. In our short-lived OOTP Groupthink, we turned over the file to the head of scouting to execute it. I don't think that wold be as fun here, because the NFL draft is so much more exciting and has such an immediate impact on the team.

On yet another side note, are we good with the number of participants we have right now in the groupthink, or should we (perhaps actively) recruit a few more players to fill roles? I think it would be fun to have the roles branch out. For example the QB, Backs, OL, and Receivers coaches would all report to the OC, while the OC, DC, scouts, etc. would report back to the GM. Thoughts?

QuikSand

08-26-2003, 02:19 PM

At the moment, I have entered the following free agent bids:

FB Rondell Kowalkoski - 2yrs, $3.6m
C R.J. Winters - 3yrs, $30m
T Timothy Johns - 2yrs, $2.78m
CB Joseph Henderson - 3yrs, $15m

We definitely need to shore up the LB position, so we will await some input from albionmoonlight there. Past that, I'm open to whatever we decide to do.

We will need a positional leader in the secondary,and from the looks of it, it will have to be our remaining starter at safety. (It's a little uncertain who might be the leader among our current group)

Past that - we certainly want to invest a few bucks into a starting QB, also. Clayton is a fringe guy, probably a #2 at best -- it would be wise to at least bring in a journeyman who can sling it for a season or two.

I've pointed out one receiver I like - that's another position where we have a lot of filling in to do, as well.

QuikSand

08-26-2003, 02:23 PM

Originally posted by Swaggs
On a side note, what would type of duties would come with being head of rookie scouting? It sounds fun, but I would obviously have a tough time doing reports on the hundreds and hundreds of players availalbe? Curious on how it was handled in the past. In our short-lived OOTP Groupthink, we turned over the file to the head of scouting to execute it. I don't think that wold be as fun here, because the NFL draft is so much more exciting and has such an immediate impact on the team.

I think the lead scout just becomes the final decision-maker on our drafting decisions. Back in the original GT, Daimyo served this role pretty well. He got he game files, simmed up to our pick, posted the results to that point (sometimes with an updated game file) and then the rest of the participants openly debated whom to select. It remains an open, participatory process -- much of which would be done by consensus. But there needs to be one person in charge, and that would be our director of scouting.

In that version of GT we had specific people tabbed as heads of veteran scouting - but that seems to work better as a community exercise, whether by position or just generally. I guess it then becomes th GM's role to decide where we invest our resources in that stage.

QuikSand

08-26-2003, 02:31 PM

SS Ricky Hawkins is an age-old veteran, who might be a perfect fit for our secondary. A 10th year veteran with a leadership rating of 82, he'd surely become our positional leader. He would have a natural affinity with our two recently re-signed DBs Bordano and Reynolds, and would be okay with the CB we are pursuing.

He wants about $4m a year - a little bit steep, but he's a pretty good fit, and certainly good enough to start for us.

Fritz

08-26-2003, 03:17 PM

QB Chuck Hutchens
QB Heath Sparks

Are both high on my list of FA's for us. Please give them some consideration. We need two, and both of these can be had at an afordable price.

Hutchens - former first rounder who has been overlooked. Still developing after 7 season with no starts. good understanding of many plays (15) A steal

Sparks - a 5'9" former first rounder. Fairly good at everything, excels at timing passes. Four year starter with TB before riding the bench last season for TIJ. Moderate playbook (12) guy.

Both fit with the chemestry we are working towards with the backs and the runners. Will not conflict with TE Diana's bunch.

QuikSand

08-26-2003, 03:31 PM

Okay, let's have a look at our position leader situation - just to separate out where we'll be in terms of QB conflicts:

Projected position leaders (tentative):
Backs - FB Kowalkowski, Aquarius
Receivers - TE Diana, Taurus
O Line - C Winters, Libra
Def Front - DE Martin, Taurus
Secondary - S Ricky Hawkins, Cancer

That puts all our leaders into two groups:
Pisces-Taurus-Cancer
Aquarius-Libra-Capricorn

Meaning that we have six signs that would build at least two affinities with positional leaders.

However, when we look at the opposing signs, we see that Libra and Taurus are opposed signs within our pairing -- meaning that none of our QBs can come from either sign (following our strict rule against conflicts).

So, the ideal signs for our QBs (assuming these position leaders) would be:

Capricorn
Pisces
Aquarius
Cancer

I have put in qualifying, multi-year offers to QB Hutchens (Capricorn) and QB Sparks (Aquarius), consistent with our overall model. I think Hutchens, despite not having thrown a pass in the league, is a guy worth getting a bit excited about.

Our current QB Jon Clayton will be neutral with each of our projected position leaders.

QuikSand

08-26-2003, 03:54 PM

Just to help out albionmoonlight a little, as he evaluates the LB position:

At the LB position, assuming that DE Martin remains our leader for the defensive front, we'd get chemistry bonuses from players who are Taurus, Pisces, or Cancer. We cannot acquire players who are Libra at these positions.

Leroy Peterson is a pass-rushing specialist who gav me some effective playing time in Lake Erie. He actually did pretty well in full time duty a few seasons ago with Nashua (66+29 tackles). He could probably be helpful in the DE rotation as well, as a situational pass rusher. He's looking for less than $2.5m a year. He's an Aquarius - which would be neutral with our position leader.

J.J. Mills is a serious run stopper, with a career TkPct of about 15.9 (pretty good). He actually got to the QB early in his career, but his forte is obviously against the run. He's seeking about $2.5m a year. He's a Pisces - which would create an affinity with Martin, the position leader.

The two towering studs available at OLB Odegard (Taurus) and Kasica (Aquarius) would both be fine with regard to chemistry, if you fell strongly that we need to pursue one of them. It looks like it will take over $10m a season to land either one, and either one might assume the position leadership role from DE Martin, as they both have leadership ratings in the 70s.

Buzzbee

08-26-2003, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by Swaggs
On yet another side note, are we good with the number of participants we have right now in the groupthink, or should we (perhaps actively) recruit a few more players to fill roles? I think it would be fun to have the roles branch out. For example the QB, Backs, OL, and Receivers coaches would all report to the OC, while the OC, DC, scouts, etc. would report back to the GM. Thoughts?

I'm interested in participating, although in a minor role. I usually have an hour or so in the mornings while my daughter gets ready for school that I could devote to such an endeavor. I would apply for the Director of Rookie Scouting position, but feel my resume is woefully inadequate. I'm not as in depth as you guys where FOF is concerned. I could sim TCY seasons to generate draft files if needed.

I haven't downloaded the files to view the players but based on the comments here, I'll share a few thoughts.

My philosophy has always been to have a solid, well rounded (no pun intended) offensive line. With a good, balanced OL you can turn an average running game into a good running game. Same with an average passing game. Time in the pocket helps the QB complete passes and keeps you from going backwards from sacks. So, I think keeping Winters is the more attractive of the options. Yes, he is pricey, but the price on the OL might allow you to get a solid, inexpensive FB and develop a bruising running game. Also, you MIGHT get a trade offer which would allow you to dump some of his salary. Not to mention you might get a draft pick or marginal player in return, as opposed to cutting him, in which case you'd get nothing.

QuikSand

08-26-2003, 08:21 PM

Buzzbee, please do go ahead and download the files, and pick up from there. We'll find a role for you, I'm sure - managing a position, or whatever.

albionmoonlight

08-26-2003, 09:53 PM

Odegard and Kasica are too old to get the kind of money they demand. If they were 6 year players around whom we could build a defense for the next seven years, then OK. As it is, I think that we will put down a lot of money for these guys, only to have them decline just as we are stepping it up as a team. (I know this is the opposite argument that I am using when I say keep the old OL guys, but 1.)There are more OL spots than LB spots, so I think that it is important on the OL to keep some guys around while we rebuild. 2.) OL is more important to the team than LB. 3.) I have an illogical attachment to older players who are on our team already)

I like both Peterson and Mills as good, low cost upgrades to what we have. I would like up to persue them both.

If we want to put big $$ into LB (and I do), I want to go after stud Russell Daniels, a 6th year low leadership Tarus who plays ILB. Perhaps he and Peterson and not Mills?

QuikSand

08-27-2003, 07:44 AM

ANother guy we can consider, although more for a short term role, would be MLB Trevor Hylton. He's a 12th year guy, but is still playing very well. He has a big, obvious void in his skill set - but it's man coverage, which I don't think LBs do very much of in most schemes. Look past that, and you see a staller run stopper, with star quality skills elsewhere.

Again, I have some experience with this player - he gave use a few very solid seasons in Lake Erie. He could certainly earn his keep as a starter for us for a couple years, perhaps bridging the gap until we find an anchor "LB of the future" type.

QuikSand

08-27-2003, 07:56 AM

So, how close are we to having a sufficient plan to allow us to move ahead into free agency? I think this first year, with such huge open spaces on the roster, we won't follow what will become our "house rules" on free agent timing - we'll just pursue players as best we can. In future seasons, we'll follow some kind of restrictions regarting when we can make offers.

Where are we? My best sense right now:

QB – We have one guy signed and two offers in. If we lock up all three, we’ll be pretty well set.

RB – We have one guy signed, and no offers. Is this a position we want to fill via the draft and rookies?

FB – One offer in for a starter/leader. Fill in with a rookie afterwards?

TE – One guy signed, fill in with rookies afterwards?

WR – We have one guy signed, and I have put in an offer for WR Kenneth Carr to be a starter at SE. There are plenty of decent players out there who would also make sense… do we want one or two more veterans?

OL – Assuming we get Winters, re-sign Andrews, and dump Grandon -- we’ll have 5 guys signed. Fritz has recommended a few signees… how many veteran guys do we want to pursue?

P & K – Nobody on the roster yet, we’ll plan to grab undrafted rookies of late-stage free agents

DL – We return 5 guys on new contracts, so we probably cannot afford to invest in veterans here – we’ll fill in with rookies (or take a look in late free agency)

LB – One guy signed, and offers in on three starting-caliber veterans – we should fill in with rookies (assuming we get all three guys we are pursuing)

DB – Two guys signed, two offers in give us our four starters – we can fill in with a late FA and a few rookies

- - -

My sense is that we need to have a plan at WR before we go too far ahead, and maybe at RB (if we want to pursue any veteran players there). Also, I need some more guidance on the OL.

QuikSand

08-27-2003, 08:01 AM

Money-wise, here are the FA offers I currently have outstanding:
(just showing approximate cap values for this year)

1.3 QB Hutchins
2.8 QB Sparks
1.8 FB Kowalkowski
2.7 WR Carr
0.9 WR Mathews
10.0 C Winters
1.2 G Hauserman
1.4 T Johns
12.3 LB Daniels
2.3 LB Peterson
2.4 LB Mills
5.0 CB Henderson
4.0 S Hawkins
- - - -
48 million in offers

edited to add G Hauserman, WR Mathews

Bee

08-27-2003, 08:03 AM

Ramsey, Todd 71 RDT 2017 2020 4 $3,150,000 $2,290,000

Did we resign Ramsey? I had thought he was being cut.

Fritz

08-27-2003, 08:08 AM

OLB that may be worth looking at

OLB (http://www.buffworks.com/bw/fof/fatool/default.asp?selLeadUD=%3E%3D&selExpUD=%3C%3D&selCEUD=%3E%3D&selFutureUD=%3E%3D&selPos=OLB&selSign=G3&selLead=0&selExp=9&selCE=0&selFuture=0&selSort1=Pos&selSort2=Player&Submit=Submit+Query)

ILB that may be worth looking at

ILB (http://www.buffworks.com/bw/fof/fatool/default.asp?selLeadUD=%3E%3D&selExpUD=%3C%3D&selCEUD=%3E%3D&selFutureUD=%3E%3D&selPos=ILB&selSign=G3&selLead=0&selExp=9&selCE=0&selFuture=0&selSort1=Pos&selSort2=Player&Submit=Submit+Query)

Both of these groups have an affinty with DE Martin (Taurus) and have 9 or fewer years.

QuikSand

08-27-2003, 08:13 AM

Originally posted by Bee

Ramsey, Todd 71 RDT 2017 2020 4 $3,150,000 $2,290,000

Did we resign Ramsey? I had thought he was being cut.

Hmmm. Actually, he ought to have been labeled with a question mark - he has not yet been re-signed. If we did, he would become a $1.9m player this year, and $1.1m for next year.

I guess he might be last-minute decision for us... he has great chemistry with Martin, and might actually be worth something there despite his very meager talents.

Sorry for the oversight...

QuikSand

08-27-2003, 08:26 AM

How about as a nickel back we grab CB Andre Ensley? He's a 5th year player, pretty good skill in man coverage (44/66), and was a full-time starter last season for Cheyenne. Not a star (and not good in run support) but he would probably sign fairly cheaply (under $4m a year) and would have an affinity with our presumptive secondary leader S Hawkins.

Hugh Cobb is a chaeper alternative, pretty good hitter, decent all-around cover man, and looking for a modest minsal contract. He would be neutral with our leadership on chemistry, but at $1.3m, he'd be a value acquisition.

Fritz

08-27-2003, 08:29 AM

QB – I would to see us get a fourth. He could be a rookie of little value as his role is to keep the the "3 QB" requirement from busting us when an injury happens. Might take a flyer on a longshot to develop with this guy.

RB – We can use this to provide depth at KR. I would to see us add one that would not make us cry if our guy goes out, or a pass chatching type. 3 more needed please (we need to take care to avoid super high leadership guys)

FB – A pass catching rook would be my first want, but a blocker will do. If we can find a talent with a high leadership in the right sign would could start developing a replacement for our veteran FB.

TE – I would prefer a blocker.

WR – I think we need one guy who can start in a pinch, one young guy to develop, and a reserve. somewhere in there we can have STers

A guy like FL Barnhardt could do (1,000,000/1)

FL Julio Matthews would be a total steal (950,000/1)

OL – If we can make one side of the line solid (T,G,C) then we can get a running game going. The other side can be prospects if needed. Swaggs will certainly lobby for early picks, and I am on board with that if we don't bypass a better talent to do so.

- - -

My sense is that we need to have a plan at WR before we go too far ahead, and maybe at RB (if we want to pursue any veteran players there). Also, I need some more guidance on the OL.

I am not a fan of veteran RBs. They are often not much better than rookie RBs, and they cost a lot more.

Fritz

08-27-2003, 08:30 AM

dola

Quik

FL Julio Matthews (950,000/1) is WAY up on my want list.

QuikSand

08-27-2003, 08:31 AM

Other possible WR targets who would work well with our presumed positional leader:

SE Omar Freeney - 6th year, asking for 2.7m - has two 1,000-yd seasons under his belt, 16.0 yds/rec career - bit playmaker type

FL Julio Matthews - 3rd year, asking 910K - won't catch many passes, but has pretty sure hands and can make some plays

QuikSand

08-27-2003, 08:33 AM

Good timing, Fritz... I like him, too.

He is, however, rated pretty low in "route running" - which I find very frequently correlates to "how many passes get thrown his way." I like him as a value pick-up, but we can't expect him to ever be more than a marginal contributor at WR, even if he got pressed into starting duty (we'd just see more passes going to other guys).

Bee

08-27-2003, 08:35 AM

Originally posted by QuikSand
Hmmm. Actually, he ought to have been labeled with a question mark - he has not yet been re-signed. If we did, he would become a $1.9m player this year, and $1.1m for next year.

I guess he might be last-minute decision for us... he has great chemistry with Martin, and might actually be worth something there despite his very meager talents.

Sorry for the oversight...

ahh...ok.

I'm still inclined to cut him loose. If I remember correctly, not only did he not have any talent but he didn't have much potential either. I'd rather see us bring in a URFA who at least has some potential to break out. Perhaps we can make that call after the draft and we've had a look at the URFAs unless we need the salary cap before then.

QuikSand

08-27-2003, 08:36 AM

We have a 2yr offer in to WR Julio Matthews, added to the list above.

QuikSand

08-27-2003, 08:43 AM

Fritz, if RB O.J. Falk had return skills, I'd think he could be a very, very useful role player for us - great on 3rd down in particular. He's neutral on chemistry, though - so probably not worth a $3-4m investment.

From the "veterans" at RB, the best fit I can find might be RB Norm Ebeling, who is seeking only 910,000. No playing experience, but has a little bit of talent, and as a Libra he would mesh with our FB leader. No star by any stretch, but not much more costly than a rookie. One year deal, perhaps?

QuikSand

08-27-2003, 08:46 AM

I don't know if we want to make this much investment, but FB Hardy Wolf looks like the kind of player you're talking about, Fritz. Great route running skills, still a decnt blocker, but not a guy to carry the ball for us. Would have affinity for our FB position leader, but would not challenge for the leadership role. He wants $1.3m and up... could be.

Fritz

08-27-2003, 08:51 AM

RB Irving McCallister (730,000/1) would be worth a look

Fritz

08-27-2003, 08:54 AM

Originally posted by QuikSand
I don't know if we want to make this much investment, but FB Hardy Wolf looks like the kind of player you're talking about, Fritz. Great route running skills, still a decnt blocker, but not a guy to carry the ball for us. Would have affinity for our FB position leader, but would not challenge for the leadership role. He wants $1.3m and up... could be.

He would ok, and could step in to start if needed, but I wish he were fresher.

We could go with him and still pick up a rook FB later as the 3rd FB/TE if a good one falls to us.

QuikSand

08-27-2003, 09:05 AM

Originally posted by Fritz
RB Irving McCallister (730,000/1) would be worth a look

We certainly wouldn't want McAllister to sneak into the leadership position, though... he has a 94 rating in leadership. With a couple years' playing time, we could have a disaster on our hands if we had to start this clown.

Fritz

08-27-2003, 09:08 AM

With a better look at Wolf I like his skill set a lot. He would be a good guy to sub in obvious passing down as he can give some pass protection as well as move to the flat as an outlet.

He has some ST skills (not sure how that ranking translates) but will not be the ace of the squad.

I do worry about the 8 drops he recorded last season.

---
My flavor of FOF works to have an absolute stud at FB because the position can have an impact on both the run and the pass and can be had relatively cheap.

Fritz

08-27-2003, 09:10 AM

Originally posted by QuikSand
We certainly wouldn't want McAllister to sneak into the leadership position, though... he has a 94 rating in leadership. With a couple years' playing time, we could have a disaster on our hands if we had to start this clown.

whoa. good catch!

(heh, he looks about like the starters that are generated on my home PC)

QuikSand

08-27-2003, 09:11 AM

Trying to loo at special teams a bit more, LB Ty Davidson looks like a good investment. He is a ST demon (45/60), would have affinity with our defensive front leader, and is seeking only a minsal deal of $1.2 million. He even could put in some time at LB if need be - he'd be a solid #5 guy or so.

And while he wouldnt' add to team chemistry, TE Bernard Wayne might be a real FA steal. He's already a standout blocker, and has serious potential otherwise. Plus, he'd be a star on special teams. Asking only $910K, he'd be a great addition, if we're willing to forgo an opportunity for an affinity there.

QuikSand

08-27-2003, 09:13 AM

Money-wise, here are the FA offers we currently have outstanding:
(just showing approximate cap values for this year)

1.3 QB Hutchins
2.8 QB Sparks
1.8 FB Kowalkowski
1.3 FB Wolf
0.9 TE Wayne
2.7 WR Carr
0.9 WR Mathews
10.0 C Winters
1.2 G Hauserman
1.4 T Johns
12.3 LB Daniels
2.3 LB Peterson
2.4 LB Mills
1.2 LB Davidson
5.0 CB Henderson
4.0 S Hawkins
- - - -
51 million in offers

(updated from previous page - I'm adding offers as we lock them down)

Fritz

08-27-2003, 09:15 AM

RB Eric Shannon could be a guy to look at. Short term. No affinity, but he is not going to clash.

Fritz

08-27-2003, 09:18 AM

I like TE Bernard Wayne a lot. At worst he is the guy you want at TE3 in a goal line formation and could H-Back (sub for FB).

QuikSand

08-27-2003, 09:19 AM

I'm a little wary of turning this into a two-man show... but with 15 offers on the table at this point, I'm tempted to go adead with at least the first few rounds of free agency.

That way, we would probably find out what's going to happen with C Winters, and get our OL plan in order. We'd also (probably) lock up most of the other players we are pursuing, except maybe LB Daniels, who might initiate a dogfight.

I'll wait for some more general input... but since we are now focusing mostly on "marginal" players, it might make sense to go through a few FA stages and let the initial dust settle a bit. Then, I could send out updated game files, and we'd all have a better sense of where we are, what we still need, and who's left out there.

Plus, we are making a lot of presumptions based on team leader roles that are not at all solid. Once we see some player movement (and hopefully lock down the new acquisitions that we expect to become our team leaders) then we can make slightly firmer plans with our surrounding players (with a bit less risk there).

So... I'll await more general input on the first wave of free agency moves, but I feel like the next major step is to let 'em rip.

Fritz

08-27-2003, 09:27 AM

Originally posted by QuikSand
I'm a little wary of turning this into a two-man show...

A good thing to be wary of. My primary citisism of GT1 was that pace of the game got to be brisk, which excluded people (sometimes me) who could not hover on the computer all day.

albionmoonlight

08-27-2003, 09:45 AM

Based on that awesome list to which Fritz linked, I think that we should also keep Desmond Shon in mind if one of the three to which we have offers out falls through. He is young and provides good value for what he is asking.

Fritz

08-27-2003, 09:54 AM

Originally posted by albionmoonlight
Based on that awesome list to which Fritz linked, I think that we should also keep Desmond Shon in mind if one of the three to which we have offers out falls through. He is young and provides good value for what he is asking.

he does look nice.

Buzzbee

08-27-2003, 10:01 AM

Originally posted by Fritz
he does look nice.

And he's not bad at football either. :D

Fritz

08-27-2003, 10:13 AM

CBs for us to look at (http://www.buffworks.com/bw/fof/fatool/default.asp?selLeadUD=%3E%3D&selExpUD=%3C%3D&selCEUD=%3E%3D&selFutureUD=%3E%3D&selPos=CB&selSign=G4&selLead=0&selExp=8&selCE=0&selFuture=0&selSort1=future&selSort2=Player&Submit=Submit+Query)

S for us to look at (http://www.buffworks.com/bw/fof/fatool/default.asp?selLeadUD=%3E%3D&selExpUD=%3C%3D&selCEUD=%3E%3D&selFutureUD=%3E%3D&selPos=S&selSign=G4&selLead=0&selExp=8&selCE=0&selFuture=0&selSort1=future&selSort2=Player&Submit=Submit+Query)

Buzzbee

08-27-2003, 10:34 AM

It looks like larrymacg421 has started a thread regarding a TCY GroupThink. Five or six people have expressed interest so far. Is there still interest in an "interleague" game? Or should we keep the senior circuit and the junior circuit separate?

QS - did we decide the "farm system" link was simply not workable for the goals you guys have set? If this is something that is still intriguing, then let me know so that I can convey that to the TCY GT3. Or are there other "links" that you can think of? Otherwise it may end up being two separate GT's (which may be better anyway).

QuikSand

08-27-2003, 10:36 AM

My response from the TCY thread:

Originally posted by QuikSand
I'm certainly open to something like this... but as I have expressed in previous threads, I am wary. In every version of the TCY-FOF linked games so far, it has been practically impossible for the TCY team to have much of any influence over what players or even positions become strong pro prospects. You can recruit great players at, say, RB-- and have then develop into monster college players. But the process of converting all the many star colleg RBs into a reasonable class of pro prospects invaraibly means that many of those quality guys become bums in the eyes of pro scouts -- and you (the TCY managers) won't have any real control over that.

So, I'd hate to have the TCY team build its entire philosophy on generating pro players... and make sacrifices along those lins, only to find that it's pure folly to do so.

My thinking would be that the pro/FOF side could commit to using players from the TCY team to the fullest extent possible under our rules. (We're playing to maximize team chemistry, and to eliminate team conflicts - so those matters might interfere) But we'd definitely make every effort to draft and sign players who were under the TCY team's tutelage, and keep them around whether as roster fillers or in major roles.

Buzzbee

08-27-2003, 10:56 AM

Thanks QS. I hadn't checked the other thread since I posted. I tend to agree with you. As much as I'd like to see a combined TCY/FOF GroupThink, I just don't think there is a fun, viable way to link the two.

I'd also like to keep my hat in the ring here. No offense to the TCY'ers, but I think this GT has a better opportunity for a long flight.

Fritz

08-27-2003, 11:10 AM

Buzzbee -

I have a job suggestion that you may like that I (and perhaps albionmoonlight) would find of great use.

I think we could use someone to scout the opposing team and report on their strength, weakness, and tendencies.

If this is too much, you could do just one side of the ball.

just a thought anyway.

Fritz

08-27-2003, 11:18 AM

Thoughts from the OC:

Our playbook will be built primarily on the formations common to the Starting and Backup QB. If we get both Sparks and Hutchens (oh, I hope) we will have two players with a broad playbook.

Unless something happens in Training camp, our book would be made up of 12 common formations:

I Normal
Pro Normal
Pro 2 TE
Pro WR moves to slot
Weak 2TE
Weak 3WR
Strong Normal
Single Back Normal
Single Back 3 WR
Single Back 4 WR
Spread 5 WR
Goaline 3TE

QB Clayton knows 11 of these.

Buzzbee

08-27-2003, 11:19 AM

Don't know if anybody is interested, but I took Fritz's expanded spreadsheet and did a little manipulation to identify potential "value" players. Basically, I took the Annual and divided it by the Current. I then sorted them in ascending order. This will theoretically list the players with the cheapest salary per "point" of current talent.

Of course this assumes a perfect scout, which isn't realistic, but thought I might offer it as another way to view the players.

Fritz

08-27-2003, 11:23 AM

Thoughts from the OC:

Another thing I would like to do is be consistant with slotting. As injuries mount in FOF the AI will slide people all over.

In general, if a player goes out I do not want to resuffle everybody. My suggestion is that we plug his hole with a backup unless there is an obvious reason to shift another player into his role and backfill the shifted player.

This may also help us develop a connection with our fake players.

Buzzbee

08-27-2003, 11:23 AM

Originally posted by Fritz
Buzzbee -

I have a job suggestion that you may like that I (and perhaps albionmoonlight) would find of great use.

I think we could use someone to scout the opposing team and report on their strength, weakness, and tendencies.

If this is too much, you could do just one side of the ball.

just a thought anyway.

I accept. I was actually looking at this role in the TCY GT with envy (since digamma beat me to it).

Fritz

08-27-2003, 11:25 AM

Originally posted by Buzzbee
Don't know if anybody is interested, but I took Fritz's expanded spreadsheet and did a little manipulation to identify potential "value" players. Basically, I took the Annual and divided it by the Current. I then sorted them in ascending order. This will theoretically list the players with the cheapest salary per "point" of current talent.

Of course this assumes a perfect scout, which isn't realistic, but thought I might offer it as another way to view the players.

hey Buzzbee

look at the last col on http://www.buffworks.com/bw/fof/fatool/ after you run a query.

great minds and all that

Buzzbee

08-27-2003, 11:30 AM

Originally posted by Fritz
hey Buzzbee

look at the last col on http://www.buffworks.com/bw/fof/fatool/ after you run a query.

great minds and all that

Great minds DO think alike. So, what happened to ours?

I hadn't looked at your links before I DL'ed the spreadsheet. Was trying to work my way throught the thread to get up to speed.

QuikSand

08-27-2003, 11:47 AM

Buzzbee, once the FA process and raft are over, maybe we could do a standing scouting report on our division rivals? We'll play them twice a season, obviously, but I suspect that might help the immersion factor regardless.

QuikSand

08-27-2003, 11:54 AM

I'm thinking that we might need to bolster the defensive line a bit more - we have quantity, but not really much quality there.

DT Ellis Peters looks like the prototypical journeyman DT, pretty decent against both the run and the bass, but not the star-quality guy who gets the fat contracts. Given full time duty (which he might merit on our team) he would probably post something like 35+15 tackles, 2-4 sacks, and be a decent starter for us. He'd have an affinity with D leader Martin, and he's asking for a contract of less than $3m a year. I'm putting in an offer for him - it just seems like too good a fit to pass up.

If that doesn't work out, perhasp we pursue a guy like DT Toby Carlson, who would also have an affinity and could start at least in running situations.

Then there's an open question of how much money would we want to spend? I say this because DE Todd Biegen looks like a serious sack man (30 sacks in the last two seasons!) and he's only asking for a deal in the $8m/yr range. He's a 5th year player who would mesh well with Martin but not challenge his leadership position. He's got an 8.1 career PRPct, which is tremendous. This guy could be an impact player for us, if we were to land him. It would, however, be another fat contract at an area where we already have a fair contingent.

Tossing that out... Bee has looked closely at the DL already, so I'd be inclined to defer to him on a big ticket guy like Biegen.

Past Biegen, though, I don't find anyone else who makes much sense among the affinity-inclined free agents.

Buzzbee

08-27-2003, 12:00 PM

Can do. If there are any specific areas or bits of information the OC/DC need, let me know.

I envision my reports as giving strengths/weaknesses, key players, offensive tendencies (rush happy vs. pass happy vs. balanced), position group breakdowns, etc.

QuikSand

08-27-2003, 12:00 PM

Money-wise, here are the FA offers we currently have outstanding:
(just showing approximate cap values for this year)

1.3 QB Hutchins
2.8 QB Sparks
1.8 FB Kowalkowski
1.3 FB Wolf
0.9 TE Wayne
2.7 WR Carr
0.9 WR Mathews
10.0 C Winters
1.2 G Hauserman
1.4 T Johns
2.2 DT Peters
7.5 DE Biegen
12.3 LB Daniels
2.3 LB Peterson
2.4 LB Mills
1.2 LB Davidson
5.0 CB Henderson
4.0 S Hawkins
- - - -
60 million in offers

updated from above - I'm adding offers as we lock them down...

Bee

08-27-2003, 12:05 PM

If we have the money, I'd be thrilled to add Biegen and Peters. That would pretty much give us a top notch D-line with Martin and Biegen at the ends and Peters and Littlejohn at the tackles. I do have some concerns about Martin and potential injuries, so that makes signing Biegen an even better idea in my book.

Bee

08-27-2003, 12:07 PM

Originally posted by QuikSand
DT Ellis Peters looks like the prototypical journeyman DT, pretty decent against both the run and the bass

That should also help alot in practice considering Fritz is the OC and you never know when he'll pull a fish out of some strange place. :D

QuikSand

08-27-2003, 12:16 PM

Originally posted by Bee
If we have the money, I'd be thrilled to add Biegen and Peters. That would pretty much give us a top notch D-line with Martin and Biegen at the ends and Peters and Littlejohn at the tackles. I do have some concerns about Martin and potential injuries, so that makes signing Biegen an even better idea in my book.

If we successfully sign Biegen, we may need to cut one of our moderately pricey returnees on the DL to help offset the cost. I'm thinking that Geoff Emerson would be the target, in that case -- he would save us $2.9m by his release (even though we'd eat some $600k in cap cost).

Bee

08-27-2003, 12:19 PM

Originally posted by QuikSand
If we successfully sign Biegen, we may need to cut one of our moderately pricey returnees on the DL to help offset the cost. I'm thinking that Geoff Emerson would be the target, in that case -- he would save us $2.9m by his release (even though we'd eat some $600k in cap cost).

That's fine with me. There was something about Emerson I liked, but Biegen is a significant upgrade.

QuikSand

08-27-2003, 12:29 PM

Okay, I put in an offer for Biegen for 4yrs, $30m (with a voidable year) - if he takes that deal, great. If not, I think we won't be able to afford to get into a bidding war for him, unless we lose out on LB Daniels.

That pushes our total initial FA offers to about $60 million - and we supposedly have $73 million to spend. I think that we're in a good place to go ahead with the first round of free agency... I'll advance it a few weeks, let the initial bids settle in, and then I'll post a new set of game files to get everyone caught up.

QuikSand

08-27-2003, 12:44 PM

2020 Free Agency

Our Flyers are trying to be very active in the free agent market, as we are seeking to replace quite a lot of faces from the squad that had posted consecutive 6-win seasons.

Our top re-signing target is C R.J. Winters, and we’re going to have some competition for him. I boost our offer to 3yrs, $32m – which makes ours the best offer in terms of $/yr, even though there are a few 4yr deals out there for him as well. I still think we will be able to retain him.

In a bit of a surprise, DE Todd Biegen immediately accepts a “lowball” offer that candidly I didn’t think would work. So, that brings aboard an immediate starter for us at DE, where he will team up with Cedric Martin to lead our pass rush. Veteran safety Ricky Hawkins has also inked a deal with us, where we expect him to drop right into our secondary and assume a leadership role.

R. J. Winters mulls over our revised offer, and after week two he accepts. So, our first-choice OL strategy is complete. We release T Don Grandon to avoid the personality conflict there, and we re-up with LT Willie Andrews.

MLB Russell Daniels is also impressed with our plans and our offer, and he joins the roster after week two. We’ll be looking to him for 100+ tackles as he mans the middle of our defensive front.

We’re into week six, and have only two reluctant signees, WR Kenneth Carr and CB Joseph Henderson. Neither have other offers on the table from other teams – so I still like our chances. It takes until week 10, but we lock up both players.

And so, halfway through the FA process, we had across-the-board success with our target players (which I didn’t think was too likely, even in this game). So, here is a quick roster update of where we stand right now:

Front Office Football: The Fourth Edition
Kitty Hawk Flyers Roster, Contract View

Player # Pos OnTm EndCnt Exp Cap Cost Save if Rlse
Clayton, Jon 14 QB 2017 2022 4 $3,580,000 $1,090,000
Sparks, Heath 18 QB 2020 2021 6 $2,850,000 $2,220,000
Hutchins, Chuck 17 QB 2020 2021 7 $1,280,000 $1,280,000
Finley, Daniel 20 RB 2018 2023 3 $8,260,000 $4,000,000
Kowalski, Rondell 36 FB 2020 2021 11 $1,800,000 $1,800,000
Wolf, Hardy 31 FB 2020 2022 7 $1,280,000 $1,280,000
Diana, Julio 80 TE 2019 2021 12 $2,800,000 $1,800,000
Wayne, Bernard 82 TE 2020 2021 3 $910,000 $910,000
Song, Peter 84 FL 2019 2024 2 $7,750,000 $4,000,000
Matthews, Julio 88 FL 2020 2021 3 $910,000 $910,000
Carr, Kenneth 81 SE 2020 2022 8 $2,400,000 $1,800,000
Andrews, Willie 65 LT 2018 2023 11 $13,000,000 $6,700,000
Johns, Timothy 61 LT 2020 2021 6 $1,280,000 $1,280,000
Hausermann, Dave 72 LG 2020 2021 5 $1,280,000 $1,280,000
Winters, R.J. 54 C 2012 2022 13 $10,660,000 $8,000,000
Perry, Lewis 57 C 2019 2021 2 $960,000 $730,000
Peterson, Rufus 68 RG 2019 2021 2 $730,000 $730,000
Coffey, Darren 63 RT 2019 2020 2 $730,000 $730,000
Martin, Cedric 78 LDE 2018 2022 10 $8,350,000 $3,500,000
Peters, Ellis 70 LDT 2020 2022 7 $2,500,000 $1,800,000
Littlejohn, Jack 77 RDT 2019 2023 2 $3,790,000 $2,200,000
Ramsey, Todd 71 RDT 2017 2020 4 $3,150,000 $2,290,000
Davison, Frank 94 RDT 2018 2022 3 $2,340,000 $1,750,000
Biegen, Todd 73 RDE 2020 2023* 5 $7,500,000 $6,000,000
Emerson, Geoff 76 RDE 2019 2020 2 $3,550,000 $2,920,000
Brito, Byron 58 SLB 2018 2021 3 $2,780,000 $1,690,000
Peterson, Leroy 92 SLB 2020 2021 8 $2,200,000 $1,560,000
Daniels, Russell 96 MLB 2020 2023 6 $12,750,000 $10,000,000
Mills, J.J. 50 WLB 2020 2021 8 $2,350,000 $1,700,000
Davidson, Ty 51 WLB 2020 2021 3 $1,200,000 $1,200,000
Bordano, Edgar 29 RCB 2018 2022 3 $5,020,000 $3,000,000
Henderson, Joseph 42 RCB 2020 2022 5 $3,470,000 $2,370,000
Hawkins, Ricky 33 SS 2020 2022 10 $4,000,000 $3,000,000
Reynolds, Louie 30 FS 2018 2022 11 $3,190,000 $1,800,000

Players Under Contract: 34
On Active Roster: 34

Salary Cap: $169,300,000
Cap Room: $20,360,000
Maximum for New Player: $13,640,000
Cap Room Lost (to old contracts): $18,340,000

Cap Room Lost Next Year (to old contracts): $12,940,000
Cap Room Required Next Year: $140,380,000

I have taken the liberty of deleting players who have yet to sign elsewhere, but we do not plan to return. I still have DE Geoff Emerson on the roster, even though he’s been tagged as the first to go if we are in a salary pinch.

QuikSand

08-27-2003, 12:46 PM

Just to get everyone up to speed, and so you can see the players in a more easily aligned fashion - here's a file update.

File #1 of 2 attached

QuikSand

08-27-2003, 12:47 PM

File #2 of 2 attached

QuikSand

08-27-2003, 12:52 PM

MLB Demsond Shon remains available, and looks like an obvious bargain. We need another ILB anyway - he only wants $2.1 for this year - I think albionmoonlight gets this guy. We'll put in a bid.

(actually, I just missed him first time around, or we'd probably have him already)

QuikSand

08-27-2003, 12:57 PM

From what I can see, we have our entire (potential) starting lineup in place now. There are a couple of places where we might yet upgrade (guard, perhaps?) but overall, we have a good stock to work with. We have yet to obtain a kicker or punter... maybe I'll get on that soon.

We remain thin at the skill positions (which can be tough to fill via free agency anyway) - so I'll look for input from Fritz or anyone else on specific targets at RB and/or WR. (I've already posted a WR that I like, but I'll await some confirmation before we pony up)

albionmoonlight

08-27-2003, 01:06 PM

Good call with the bid on Shon. And a thanks again to Fritz for making him so easy to find with that list.

Fritz

08-27-2003, 01:06 PM

if we can take 1 more vet (and he has not been picked up) I would look at SE Corwin Rheams. He will be affordable and effective. A solid #3 while we develop Matthews.

Who did you like Quik?

I don't think much of the RBs we have to pick from. Rookies would be as good I think.

QuikSand

08-27-2003, 02:20 PM

The guy who caught my eye was:

SE Omar Freeney - 6th year, asking for 2.7m - has two 1,000-yd seasons under his belt, 16.0 yds/rec career - big playmaker type

edit: ...but it apperas he has headed to Tijuana.

I'm cool with Rheames, who is fine.

SE Walt Pritchett is older and slightly more expensive - but has pretty good kick return skills.

SE Everett Mayes is another pretty cheap option for a couple of years.

QuikSand

08-27-2003, 02:46 PM

As we fill in our remaining positions at RB, WR and DB, we need to keep in mind that the current team has only one player with any skill in returning kicks (WR Carr) and nobody who can return punts. I think it would be wise to acquire someone for each role along the way, even if it means a non-affinity reserve player.

Bee

08-27-2003, 03:39 PM

Originally posted by QuikSand

I still have DE Geoff Emerson on the roster, even though he’s been tagged as the first to go if we are in a salary pinch.

Either him or Ramsey (or if necessary both).

Fritz

08-27-2003, 03:44 PM

Originally posted by QuikSand
As we fill in our remaining positions at RB, WR and DB, we need to keep in mind that the current team has only one player with any skill in returning kicks (WR Carr) and nobody who can return punts. I think it would be wise to acquire someone for each role along the way, even if it means a non-affinity reserve player.

My feeling was the reserve RBs could be used like this. The #3 guy never touches the rock anyway.

QuikSand

08-27-2003, 03:59 PM

There are a few marginal returners in the rookie RB crop, but unfortunately, it seems like return skills have been randomized right along with everything else - the high quality backs have good return ability, and the bums have nothing or close to it.

Much more variability among the receivers.. there are at least a few guys like Luke Whalen (stud punt returner, marginal wideout) and Rich Stablein (good at both KR and PR, looks so-so as a receiver) who can help fill out a roster nicely.

At DB, there is a correlation too, but we could target CB Drew Shannon or CB Orlando Dole with an appopriate pick and get a 4th CB and solid return man. CB Wally Farrell is pure punt returner, but looks very good at that. CB Donnell Castillo is a two-way return threat, and probably a low-round pick. Fewer guys to see at safety - maybe Alvin Beecher as a kickoff returner, and plenty of guys with very modest talent there.

I suspect we can get our return men in the draft (or even afterwards) but we ought to keep this in mind as we get into those middle rounds, when the top-tier players are gone and we're looking mostly to fill needs.

QuikSand

08-27-2003, 06:41 PM

My plan will be to run the rest of the FA process tomorrow morning... so if there are any other FA recommendations, please get them in.

Swaggs

08-28-2003, 12:10 AM

Sorry guys. I was going to do some draft scouting, but my computer had some problems tonight and I lost a few hours.

QuikSand

08-28-2003, 06:16 AM

No worries.

I'll be away until late morning today... so until then, if anyone comes along, I'd appreciate some input on one more thing.

My intent has been tp pick up a couple more free agents - right now the MLB and another WR - and then wrap up the FA process.

Then, I would plan to sim the first round+ of the draft, and get it up to our first pick. That makes an assumption that we're not looking to trade up in this draft - which nobody has really talked about.

So - if anyone advocates that we advance in teh draft, either for a particular player or to acquire a particular position (that we believe will be voided by our pick in round two) make yourself known now. Otherwise, my first update later this morning will be to launch us all the way to the first KH draft choice, early in round two. (I think that will cut through a lot of watsed time in scouting... as we'd probably be looking mostly at players we won't get a chance to select)

albionmoonlight

08-28-2003, 09:10 AM

I am OK with not trading up. I, however, have no strong feeling on the issue.

QuikSand

08-28-2003, 11:44 AM

2020 Free Agency, continued

We put in bids for two more key free agents, MLB Desmond Shon (who we project as probably our top backup LB) and WR Corwin Rheams (who probably becomes our #3 receiver target). Both are good fits and good values.

We also make modest offers to two special teamer possibilities – P Lincoln Kinsey and RB Norm Ebeling. Ebeling is something of a security blanket – he signs a one-year non-guaranteed offer, and potentially might take the role as our #3 RB and second choice kick returner (both spots where we are weak). No guarantees that these guys make the roster, but they will be allowed to compete with the incoming rookie class for spots.

After locking up these four, I decide to give us one more “option” player in G Les Otis. The 3rd year pro accepts a modest one year deal, and will compete against rookies for a spot on the final roster – but his signing takes some pressure off us at the G position. Much the same for CB Spencer Drake, whose one year deal give us a third player at CB and another potential for some player chemistry gains, though he too will need to fight for his spot. WR/PR Mercury Kelley is brought in as a tentative competitor for the punt returner job, but his ability to make the final cut will also be very questionable.

That wraps up our participation in the free agent market for veteran players. Here’s our scout’s anaysis of the staff on hand, prior to beginning the rookie draft:

Front Office Football: The Fourth Edition
Kitty Hawk Flyers Roster, Scout Overview

Player # Pos Exp Current Estimate Future Estimate Cntrct OnTeam
Sparks, Heath 18 QB 6 43 43 2 yrs. 2020
Hutchins, Chuck 17 QB 7 37 44 2 yrs. 2020
Clayton, Jon 14 QB 4 24 40 3 yrs. 2017
Finley, Daniel 20 RB 3 55 56 4 yrs. 2018
Ebeling, Norm 44 RB 3 19 27 1 yr. 2020
Wolf, Hardy 31 FB 7 33 33 3 yrs. 2020
Kowalski, Rondell 36 FB 11 30 30 2 yrs. 2020
Diana, Julio 80 TE 12 38 39 2 yrs. 2019
Wayne, Bernard 82 TE 3 22 42 2 yrs. 2020
Song, Peter 84 FL 2 38 55 5 yrs. 2019
Matthews, Julio 88 FL 3 21 37 2 yrs. 2020
Carr, Kenneth 81 SE 8 40 41 3 yrs. 2020
Rheams, Corwin 85 SE 7 34 34 1 yr. 2020
Kelley, Mercury 89 SE 2 13 27 1 yr. 2020
Andrews, Willie 65 LT 11 64 64 4 yrs. 2018
Johns, Timothy 61 LT 6 31 51 2 yrs. 2020
Hausermann, Dave 72 LG 5 28 41 2 yrs. 2020
Winters, R.J. 54 C 13 79 79 3 yrs. 2012
Perry, Lewis 57 C 2 22 43 2 yrs. 2019
Peterson, Rufus 68 RG 2 26 43 2 yrs. 2019
Otis, Les 67 RG 3 22 35 1 yr. 2020
Coffey, Darren 63 RT 2 14 25 1 yr. 2019
Kinsey, Lincoln 4 P 2 37 51 1 yr. 2020
Martin, Cedric 78 LDE 10 51 64 3 yrs. 2018
Peters, Ellis 70 LDT 7 31 36 3 yrs. 2020
Littlejohn, Jack 77 RDT 2 33 43 4 yrs. 2019
Davison, Frank 94 RDT 3 25 37 3 yrs. 2018
Ramsey, Todd 71 RDT 4 13 19 1 yr. 2017
Biegen, Todd 73 RDE 5 50 50 4 yrs. 2020
Emerson, Geoff 76 RDE 2 25 35 1 yr. 2019
Peterson, Leroy 92 SLB 8 24 45 2 yrs. 2020
Brito, Byron 58 SLB 3 22 35 2 yrs. 2018
Daniels, Russell 96 MLB 6 66 66 4 yrs. 2020
Shon, Desmond 52 MLB 8 40 49 2 yrs. 2020
Mills, J.J. 50 WLB 8 42 42 2 yrs. 2020
Davidson, Ty 51 WLB 3 19 33 2 yrs. 2020
Bordano, Edgar 29 RCB 3 41 68 3 yrs. 2018
Henderson, Joseph 42 RCB 5 41 51 3 yrs. 2020
Drake, Spencer 38 RCB 4 19 31 1 yr. 2020
Hawkins, Ricky 33 SS 10 50 50 3 yrs. 2020
Reynolds, Louie 30 FS 11 46 46 3 yrs. 2018

Players Under Contract: 41
On Active Roster: 41

Salary Cap: $169,300,000
Cap Room: $11,720,000
Maximum for New Player: $5,000,000
Cap Room Lost (to old contracts): $18,340,000

Cap Room Lost Next Year (to old contracts): $12,940,000
Cap Room Required Next Year: $142,720,000

And now, we are ready to head into the rookie draft…

QuikSand

08-28-2003, 11:45 AM

2020 Rookie Draft

We sit back, and watch the top picks in the draft drop off the board, awaiting our first selection at #40 overall. Here’s the progression up to us:

1. Niagara Falls - Baylor, Harry, WR, Texas Tech
2. Lake Erie - Russell, Jamal, T, Utah
3. Norfolk - Berry, Brant, RB, Virginia Tech
4. Wheeling - Jackson, Tyrus, T, Ohio State
5. Pensacola - Sualua, Frank, G, Iowa State
6. Tijuana - Porcaro, Adrian, DT, Southern California
7. Hawk Mountain - Rice, Max, DT, Florida
8. Memphis - Hatcher, Les, ILB, Army
9. Providence - Hartman, Grady, RB, Texas Christian
10. Puget Sound - Derr, Randal, CB, Michigan
11. Memphis - Toliver, Paul, DT, Wake Forest
12. Ypsilanti - Hickman, Erik, DE, Wake Forest
13. Death Valley - Jarvis, Gino, DT, Utah
14. Athens - Vreede, Terry, RB, Fresno State
15. Fort Wayne - Buckley, Jerald, S, Stanford
16. Fort Knox - Hagglund, Nick, DT, Virginia Tech
17. Ocean City - Woods, Christian, CB, Utah
18. Thunder Bay - Rangel, Randal, OLB, Kansas State
19. Bermuda - Cramer, Reggie, CB, Southern California
20. Napa Valley - Wheeler, J.C., DE, Penn State
21. Key West - Horner, Terry, QB, Alabama
22. Nashua - Oswalt, Jonathan, RB, Michigan
23. Champaign - Lofton, Emmanuel, OLB, South Florida
24. Cheyenne - McDaniel, Phil, ILB, Tennessee State
25. Sacramento - Fulcher, Lance, QB, Maryland
26. Little Rock - LaGrange, Brandon, T, Notre Dame
27. Mazatlan - Donaldson, J.C., RB, Penn State
28. Texarkana - Bennett, Rickey, WR, Virginia Tech
29. Manhattan - Elmore, Bryan, ILB, Texas Christian
30. Tulsa - Hickman, Willie, ILB, Michigan State
31. Louisville - Richmond, Chris, OLB, Auburn
32. Sault Ste. Marie - Bech, Herb, G, Florida
33. Pensacola - Heilman, Doug, QB, La Salle
34. Thunder Bay - Ahn, Ben, OLB, Nevada
35. Norfolk - Henry, Edwin, CB, Texas Christian
36. Wheeling - Leverson, Ellis, WR, Indiana
37. Pensacola - Callis, Ethan, CB, Wisconsin
38. Tijuana - Buchanan, Gabe, OLB, Kansas
39. Hawk Mountain - Gillespie, Doug, CB, North Carolina

And so we stand for our initial rookie selection. We have assembled an extensive cast of fresh faces, and probably do not have critical needs anywhere – but certainly could stand to make improvements in many areas. So, the floor is open for discussion on the rookie draft, and our tactics—especially with picks #40, 55, and 72.

File update #1 of 2 attached

QuikSand

08-28-2003, 11:46 AM

File update #2 of 2 attached

QuikSand

08-28-2003, 11:55 AM

Some notable/obvious rookie observations:

If we’re looking for a ready-to-play guy who will probably step right in and have a serious impact, we have to consider FB Earnest Rubble. He’s a Libra, and would therefore fit with our current position chemistry in the backfield – and has high enough leadership that he could easily assume the mantle as group leader in time. Our rule requiring that position leaders start nominally makes him a reserve – but Rubble would probably become a major utility weapon for us, with his well-developed and varied skills. Does it make sense to select a FB this high in the draft? That’s probably the open question here – Rubble is a solid prospect, no doubt about that.

WR Robert Sanderson is probably worth a look here in round two, he looks like a solid big-pay man who could also return kicks for us. Not a total package, but certainly the type of WR who makes sense with a second round selection – and might be a good fit for us.

There are several linebackers here – and that position might make sense, too (especially if we intend to move toward the 3-4 in time). I think some input from the DC on what we’ll be looking for would be helpful here – but my instincts might point toward a guy like Ron Coleman, who should become a solid run stopper with good drop-back coverage skills in an underneath zone scheme. Gabe Bernreuter looks like he could become a force in the outside pass rush, but may not have the well-rounded skills of an every-down ‘backer. There are several more to consider here or soon as well.

CB Cornell Ferguson looks like the best cover man and return specialist in the remaining draft – but his man-coverage skills are lacking. Might be a reach this early (but he’ll get taken soon, I suspect), but I’m drooling over putting him back to take punts. He’d also have a positional affinity with S Hawkins, our position leader.

Fritz

08-28-2003, 12:20 PM

Originally posted by QuikSand
If we’re looking for a ready-to-play guy who will probably step right in and have a serious impact, we have to consider FB Earnest Rubble. He’s a Libra, and would therefore fit with our current position chemistry in the backfield – and has high enough leadership that he could easily assume the mantle as group leader in time. Our rule requiring that position leaders start nominally makes him a reserve – but Rubble would probably become a major utility weapon for us, with his well-developed and varied skills. Does it make sense to select a FB this high in the draft? That’s probably the open question here – Rubble is a solid prospect, no doubt about that.

I have no issues with taking a super FB in the early stages. Depending on his skill he can be slotted as the passing back, short back, and in the normal depth charts. I might also slot him as the TE1 or TE2 in some formations to take advantage of his catch skills (unless his drops get to be too high). He could also be slotted as the #2 back and the Pro formation FB.

WR Robert Sanderson is probably worth a look here in round two, he looks like a solid big-pay man who could also return kicks for us. Not a total package, but certainly the type of WR who makes sense with a second round selection – and might be a good fit for us.

I think Logan or Kramer would be as good for us. Will one of them be around in the early 3rd round?

QuikSand

08-28-2003, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by Fritz
I think Logan or Kramer would be as good for us. Will one of them be around in the early 3rd round?

Pretty fair bet that one will, I suspect. They both are excellent punt returners, that much is certain.

I have a rather unsubstantiated faer about guys like Logan, though - in particular because his highest main ratuing, by far, is route running. I interpret this as "he will get lots of passes thrown to him, but he doesn't have great ability otherwise." He's so-so in other key areas (avoiding drops, getting downfield, etc) but I am always wary of guys like this - for that reason. I cannot back that up with any particular evidence, but it just makes sense to me-- I'm not sure that I want to have a lot of passes that otherwise would have gone to our best receivers to instead get thrown to a guy like Logan, who has mediocre overall skills (other than drawing passes his way). Seems like subtraction by addition, if you get my drift.

I'd prefer Kramer of the two, for that reason... but in general would have no problem saiting until round three and seeing if we can get a receiver/returner there.

VPI97

08-28-2003, 12:41 PM

Just thought I'd post this...for the sake of realism.

<table cellspacing=1 border=1><tr><td colspan=4 bgcolor=silver align=center>2019 NCAA All-Senior Team</tr><tr bgcolor=silver align=center width=50><td>Pos</td><td width=100>Player</td><td width=100>Team</td><td width=175>Notes</td></tr><tr><td align=center>QB</td><td>Scott Scott</td><td>Colorado State</td><td colspan=2>pass - 293/460 4105 yds, 39 TD, 21 Int; 2019 Heisman Winner</td></tr><tr><td align=center>HB</td><td>Luke Withers</td><td>Texas A & M</td><td colspan=2>rush - 323 for 1644, 22 TD; rec - 81 for 882, 10 TD; 2-time 1st team All-American</td></tr><tr><td align=center>FB</td><td>Phil Pierce</td><td>Auburn</td><td colspan=2>rush - 37 for 104, 4 TD; rec - 47 for 425, 7 TD; 2nd team All-American</td></tr><tr><td align=center>TE</td><td>Joel Sibley</td><td>Nevada</td><td colspan=2>rec - 35 for 555, 6 TD; 2nd team All-American</td></tr><tr><td align=center>WR</td><td>Robert Sanderson</td><td>Florida</td><td colspan=2>rec - 55 for 865, 15 TD; 1st team All-SEC</td></tr><tr><td align=center>WR</td><td>Sedrick Beckwith</td><td>West Virginia</td><td colspan=2>rec - 59 for 979, 11 TD; 23.9 KR Avg; 1st team All-Big East</td></tr><tr><td align=center>C</td><td>Jake Givens</td><td>Liberty</td><td colspan=2>2 time 1st team All-American; 4 time 1st team All-Southern Conference</td></tr><tr><td align=center>G</td><td>Joey Bradley</td><td>Maryland</td><td colspan=2>1st team All-American</td></tr><tr><td align=center>G</td><td>Ross Vincent</td><td>Auburn</td><td colspan=2>1st team All-American</td></tr><tr><td align=center>T</td><td>Richard Escalante</td><td>Kansas State</td><td colspan=2>1st team All-American</td></tr><tr><td align=center>T</td><td>Josh Marshall</td><td>So. California</td><td colspan=2>2nd team All-American</td></tr><tr><td align=center>P</td><td>Desmond Barham</td><td>Marshall</td><td colspan=2>40.0 punting average; long of 56; 1st team All-American</td></tr><tr><td align=center>K</td><td>Lenny Marvin</td><td>Tennessee</td><td colspan=2>22/27 FG; long of 43; 2nd team All-SEC</td></tr><tr><td align=center>DE</td><td>Glen Montgomery</td><td>Texas Tech</td><td colspan=2>71 tckl, 16.0 sck, 24 TFL; 2 time 1st team All-American; 4 time 1st team All-Big 12</td></tr><tr><td align=center>DE</td><td>Kenyon Villarreal</td><td>Idaho</td><td colspan=2>69 tckl, 21.5 sck, 35 TFL; 1st team All-American</td></tr><tr><td align=center>DT</td><td>Herman Jackson</td><td>Colorado</td><td colspan=2>66 tckl, 8.5 sck, 16 TFL; 1st team All-Big 12</td></tr><tr><td align=center>ILB</td><td>Skip Prescott</td><td>Clemson</td><td colspan=2>143 tckl, 1.0 sck, 25 TFL; 1st team All-American</td></tr><tr><td align=center>ILB</td><td>O.J. Heinlein</td><td>Tulane</td><td colspan=2>100 tckl, 2.0 sck, 18 TFL, 3 int; 2nd team All-American</td></tr><tr><td align=center>OLB</td><td>Phil McDaniel</td><td>Liberty</td><td colspan=2>88 tckl, 1.0 sck, 21 TFL, 2 int; 1st team All-American</td></tr><tr><td align=center>OLB</td><td>Skip May</td><td>Air Force</td><td colspan=2>75 tckl, 15 TFL, 2 int; 2nd team All-American</td></tr><tr><td align=center>CB</td><td>Lionel McCrary</td><td>Colorado State</td><td colspan=2>8 int, 14 defn, 63 tckl; 11.5 PR Avg, 24.0 KR Avg; 1st team All-American</td></tr><tr><td align=center>CB</td><td>Drew Shannon</td><td>Illinois</td><td colspan=2>8 int, 10 defn, 33 tckl; 9.5 PR Avg; 1st team All-American (2017)</td></tr><tr><td align=center>S</td><td>Daryl Bowers</td><td>UCLA</td><td colspan=2>6 int, 14 defn, 93 tckl; 1st team All-American</td></tr><tr><td align=center>S</td><td>Sam Bardon</td><td>West Virginia</td><td colspan=2>4 int, 11 defn, 102 tckl; 8.4 PR Avg; 2nd team All-American</td></tr></table>

QuikSand

08-28-2003, 12:42 PM

Fritz, RB is a key spot still open -- please check out the RBs in the draft, and give a sense ow where you think we'll need to invest to get a guy or two of suitable quality.

Kendrick Washington would probably be a very solid #1 guy, but I don't know if he's a great fit for the system you are putting together (he's quick, with good receiving skills, but not particularly good on third down). If we wanted him, I suspect we'd have to take him here - he won't be around much longer.

How about Michael McIntyre? Seems like a decent fit... and works wit team chemistry. But where do we think he falls in the draft?

Anyway - give that some thought...

Swaggs

08-28-2003, 01:10 PM

what type of coverage scheme are we going with on defense?

QuikSand

08-28-2003, 01:24 PM

Originally posted by Swaggs
what type of coverage scheme are we going with on defense?

Our two current starters at CB have talents that suggest mostly man coverage, or perhaps man/bump-and-run primarily. Bordano, our young and better guy, is probably equally adept at all three types of covrage, but Henderson is rated 49/74 in MTM, 46/50 in BNR, but only 17/19 in zone.

S Louie Reynolds is also lousy in zone coverage, while Hawkins is pretty much level acrodd the board (actually slightly better in zone).

My guess is based on what we have, we ought to play plenty of man, with bump-and-run being our second option. We ought to play fairly little zone, overall - it's just not a good fit with our current staff.

So, potentially attractive CBs like Ferguson and especially Scully are tought to fit into our system - with their lack of man coevrage skills. If we went with either one, and neede dthem to play a lot, I expect we might have to go to a heavy bump-and-run scheme, which might work out just fine -- I have very little experience using that as a primary coverage device.

A guy like CB Brian Shields might make a lot of sense for us... good man coverage skills, decent in bump, and a great punt returner to boot.

albionmoonlight

08-28-2003, 01:26 PM

Originally posted by Swaggs
what type of coverage scheme are we going with on defense?

It will vary depending on what talent we have (at least initally). I will give a more detailed summary when I get home and have a little more time.

Generally, however, I like to blitz/dog much more with LBs than with the secondary.

I plan to base the D based on the LBs. If they can blitz, I will blitz and play man. If they can cover, we will play a lot more zone.

If people can wait until tonight, I will post a bit more in depth with what I want as a defensive scheme in a perfect world.

Fritz

08-28-2003, 01:26 PM

RB Bruce Bruce should get a look.
RB Adrian Kwan is a #2/#3 with reasonble return skills at PR/KR

*****RB Brett Atkins (Taurus) is a guy who I like. Slow, but good for short yardage (elusive/power inside)

RB Rob Strong Speed back who can sub as a wr.

Dud RB who have weak ratings at PR/KR are all over the bottom of the scouting charts.

QuikSand

08-28-2003, 01:48 PM

To help tide us over, as we consider the defense:

Pos Name RunD PRTech PRStr
SLB Peterson 13/33 40/94 49
SLB Brito 15/33 25/50 48
MLB Shon 26/33 45/68 90
MLB Daniels 60 44 87
WLB Mills 84 38 45
WLB Davidson 32/59 16/31 12

QuikSand

08-28-2003, 02:39 PM

At the right time in the draft (I don't know when thet might be) we might want to look at LG Grant Young, who is listed as 2nd best G on the board, and is a Capricorn which works with our current chemistry mix. Slightly pass-inclined, he may be better-suited as a right guard, but I'm guessing he could be a long-time starter for us. (I find that guys with high ratings but low endurance, like this guy, seem to do just fine on the OL)

Fritz

08-28-2003, 03:03 PM

Originally posted by QuikSand
At the right time in the draft (I don't know when thet might be) we might want to look at LG Grant Young, who is listed as 2nd best G on the board, and is a Capricorn which works with our current chemistry mix. Slightly pass-inclined, he may be better-suited as a right guard, but I'm guessing he could be a long-time starter for us. (I find that guys with high ratings but low endurance, like this guy, seem to do just fine on the OL)

as I recall, there were a few good looking guards left in the draft pool. Here is where that zodiac stuff can affect strategy. If you find a talent in a need position with an affinity sign, should he move ahead of more talented, or greater need players?

Bee

08-28-2003, 03:17 PM

Originally posted by Fritz
RB Bruce Bruce should get a look.

I really want this guy!

:D

QuikSand

08-28-2003, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by Bee
I really want this guy! (Bruce Bruce)

Yeah, I figured. Actually, all things considered - if he were to slip a ways (maybe into round three) he would be a great pickup for us, he'd be a very nice versatile #2 RB for us.

But I feared you'd strike up the band for him.

Bee

08-28-2003, 03:48 PM

Yep...kinda wished I were the Runningbacks coach now. I think we'd have our starter for the next 10-12 years. :D

Buzzbee

08-28-2003, 04:18 PM

G'day Bruce!

My $0.02 (being at work and not having the stuff in front of me).

A FB hasn't been taken yet. Is there a reasonable possibility that Ernie Rubble will fall to our next pick? If not, are there other similar FB's that might? From past experience, FB's tend to be cheap, so I question if our *top* pick should be used for a FB when we have other *need* areas. In addition, we would be using a 2nd round pick for someone who (initially/potentially) will be a reserve. Of course, we haven't made a rule against starting a position leader and setting their playing time at 1.

Fritz

08-28-2003, 08:36 PM

Originally posted by Buzzbee
Of course, we haven't made a rule against starting a position leader and setting their playing time at 1.

I think that would be OK. In my view, "starting" someone is as much about prestige as anything else.

Buzzbee

08-29-2003, 07:01 AM

I had a chance to look over the files last night and here are my thoughts.

I would be ok with any of the following:

Ernest Rubble - I think Ernie Rubble has been working at the quarry with Barney and Fred, and is solid. He is clearly head and shoulders above other FB and we don't currently have much talent at that position. He's hard to pass up.

Robert Sanderson - Kenneth Wilson appears to be a better overall receiver, but that's what scares me. He looks a little too even, all the way down. His leadership is also pretty high, which might cause problems. Sanderson has a high Getting Downfield rating which means big Yards After Catch and is a big play receiver. I like that. Our receiver corps is okay at the top, but has no depth. Sanderson has no punt return abilities, but would eventually be a serviceable kick returner.

Mercury Goff - Has a ton of potential in both Man and Zone defenses. A punishing hitter for a guy who is 5'11", 194 lbs. With a high leadership (99) he would be our Secondary leader, which would be a drawback early, but possibly a strength later on (and we could set his playing time to 1 if he starts). One drawback is that he doesn't have much in the way of return skills, which is something we need. He is a Scorpio so no problems with conflict, and affinity with 3rd string QB.

We could use a guard, and there are some quality players there. But I think there is enough depth that we can pick one up in a later round. There are some good cornerbacks as well, but I didn't see any that made my scrotum tingle. Too bad Marcus Scully has 0 for M2M, or he'd be a no brainer.

Just my $0.02.

QuikSand

08-29-2003, 07:59 AM

I'm thinking that with our three top picks, we come away with FB Rubble, a WR, and a LB. My general sense is that the one singular guy from among the three is Rubble, so we probably ought to "reach" a little (I agree that he might fall) and take him now, and then we'll still get somebody at WR and somebody at LB.

And with that, I will be away for a couple of days, so I'll pass the baton to whomever feels ampowered to go onward. We have yet to get meaningful input from alb or Swaggs, so maybe it's just as well. I'll be back online some time on Sunday, and will get caught up then.

Buzzbee

08-29-2003, 08:10 AM

What about defensive backs? We have FS, SS, and 3 RCB. I think that leaves us a little thin there. With LB, we've got 6, 2 each at SLB, MLB, and WLB. Just looking at numbers, not quality.

albionmoonlight

08-29-2003, 09:26 AM

I believe that we should pick FB Rubble with this pick. He can step in and play the "utility back" role as Fritz described above. I think that FOF4's gameplanning really allows one to use a good fullback if one is creatitive enough--I think that it will be fun for the OC to see what he can get out of the guy. Even if he is a bit of a reach, there is no one else on the board screaming to be taken, so I say we go with him.

As far as defensive scheme in general. I plan to use the involved gameplan to the best of my ability--meaning that it is OK to have one dimentional guys (i.e. guys who can only rush the passer, or guys who can only stop the run). I will work the game plan to make sure that everyone is used to the best of his ability--that will be part of the fun for me.

Overall, I would like a scheme where we play a lot of man-to-man and bump-and-run coverage and where we blitz almost exclusively with our linebackers. Additionally, we find the one or two LBs we have who have great blitzing ability, and we blitz with them heavily. We don't worry so much about coming after them with 100 different looks. We just send our same best 5 or 6 blitzing guys after them and see what happens.

That said, I would be happy with waiting a couple of picks and getting Gabe Bernreuter. Even if he cannot do much other than rush the passer, he can still get on the field on third downs as a backup LB or DE and do just that.

Oh--FWIW, whether we orient CB by L/R side of the formation or by best receiver will depend both on our opponent and on our CBs.

QuikSand

08-31-2003, 05:56 PM

Hmmm. This doesn't really bode all that well. I had suspected we'd have rolle into the fifth round by now during my absence, and that I'd have a lot of catching up to do. Instead... nary a fart out of the lot of you fellas. Okay then.

Well, with a few days to provide input on the forthcoming selection, I'll go ahead and move through the first sections of the draft, and we'll see where that leaves us.

QuikSand

08-31-2003, 06:09 PM

2020 Rookie Draft, continued

I have a late change of heart, after getting varied input on our offensive needs, and decide that WR Robert Sanderson, after a standout season in college and clearly showing the best set of on-field skills among te WRs available, is the to pick here. I harken back to many previous FOF drafts watching FBs fall until the middle rounds, and hope/expect to see the same with Rubble.

40. Kitty Hawk - Sanderson, Robert, WR, Florida
41. Providence - Bullock, Curtis, T, Air Force
42. Puget Sound - Goff, Mercury, S, Illinois
43. Memphis - Brennan, Randal, QB, Texas A&M
44. Ypsilanti - Henry, Jerald, T, Michigan
45. Hawk Mountain - Fulton, Tito, QB, Mississippi
46. Athens - Oswalt, Lewis, G, South Florida
47. Fort Wayne - Wilson, Kenneth, WR, Stanford
48. Fort Knox - Kramer, Howie, WR, UCLA
49. Ocean City - Schrempf, Mickey, T, California
50. Lake Erie - Jue, Donny, OLB, Tennessee
51. Bermuda - Goga, Deron, S, Tennessee
52. Napa Valley - Levine, Zack, T, Stanford
53. Key West - Conley, Austin, T, Virginia Tech
54. Nashua - Villarreal, Kenyon, DE, Idaho
55. Kitty Hawk - Rubble, Earnest, FB, Ohio State
56. Sacramento - Young, Grant, G, Texas Christian
57. Sacramento - Farley, Bert, T, Washington State
58. Little Rock - Bernreuter, Gabe, ILB, UCLA
59. Mazatlan - Matthews, Eugene, DE, Illinois
60. Texarkana - Wacholtz, Teddy, ILB, Penn State
61. Manhattan - Vincent, Ross, G, Auburn
62. Tulsa - Washington, Kendrick, RB, Central Florida
63. Louisville - Montgomery, Glen, DE, Texas Tech
64. Sault Ste. Marie - Coleman, Ron, ILB, Wake Forest
65. Niagara Falls - Weaver, Julio, G, Nebraska
66. Thunder Bay - Price, Lenny, G, Oregon
67. Norfolk - Pierson, Grant, ILB, Texas A&M
68. Wheeling - Wooden, Ernie, WR, Utah
69. Pensacola - Scully, Marcus, CB, Texas A&M
70. Tijuana - Ferguson, Cornell, CB, Texas A&M
71. Hawk Mountain - Gay, Tom, S, Illinois

The gambit pays off, and we get the two guys that I really wanted here, albeit in the reverse order than I had expected. With one of the other WRs we liked getting snapped up in round two before our second pick, it looks like this may be been the wise move (I don’t know where Sanderson would have gone). I’ll leave it to the other participants to decide whether there needs to be an inquiry over potential nepotism here.

Regrettably, the wait until the third round has wiped off the top LB pick, Gabe Bernreuter, who went shortly after our late second rounder. So, we have a slate of other players to consider here.

We had considered WR Bennie Logan as a possible pick here, and still have a need at PR, but that might be a bit of a stretch after taking Sanderson in round two. RB Bruce Bruce, despite the kicker name, is actually a very defensible pick here – and has some return skills to go along with pretty solid #2 running abilities.

CB Orlando Chapman may not be a standout in the cover areas we’re looking for, but (as pointed out just above) we are pretty thin at DB, and he would make a pretty passable nickel back, plus a star punt returner. CB Luther Duran might be even more intriguing – and might have more upside in coverage, in addition to great return skills. I had noted CB Brian Shields before as a good fit – and he remains available.

I’ll put thing on hold for right now – but my initial inclination is to look at a CB/returner with this 3rd round pick. I have yet to do a chemistry analysis here – so that could be a deciding factor.

QuikSand

08-31-2003, 06:13 PM

Just in case the files help with scouting - here is an update:

QuikSand

08-31-2003, 06:13 PM

Second updated file here...

thirdandlong

09-01-2003, 01:03 AM

Originally posted by QuikSand
Instead... nary a fart out of the lot of you fellas.

I farted while waiting for you to come back and post.
Twice I think.

Buzzbee

09-01-2003, 09:02 AM

In between painting, putting up a ceiling fan, ripping up carpet, cutting grass, weatherproofing a deck, installing laminate flooring, having sex with my wife and fixing a leaky roof, I'll do my best to review the files and make suggestions. Yes, wifey and I are taking the week off to do some home improvement stuff. I just hope it looks like Trading Spaces instead of Sanford and Son.

Without analyzing the current players available, my first inclination is to go with a CB since we are thin there. However, I haven't looked at the talent available, or other need areas. Hopefully I will have some time around lunch, or later tonight.

albionmoonlight

09-01-2003, 09:34 AM

I don't like Bruce Bruce--at least not with this pick.

The only linebacker worth taking is Perry Groce, but he is much more of a coverage linebacker than a run stopper or a pass rusher, so he does not fit into our scheme as well as I would like.

I vote for Duran here. He has high reds in both kick and punt return, killing both birds with one stone. Also, his greens in coverage ability are more well rounded than Chapman--especially since we are not looking to play a lot of zone.

I vote for CB Duran with this pick.

QuikSand

09-01-2003, 12:56 PM

Just for my/our convenience...

The four affinity groups are:
Aries, Gemini, Scorpio
Sagittarius, Leo, Virgo
Pisces, Taurus, Cancer
Aquarius, Libra, Capricorn

And the six pairs of opposed signs are:
Aries - Aquarius
Taurus - Libra
Gemini - Virgo
Scorpio - Pisces
Capricorn - Leo
Cancer - Sagittarius

QuikSand

09-01-2003, 01:15 PM

I, too, like Luther Duran best for this pick – so with the DC’s blessing, we’ll grab our likely nickelback for the season, and see what’s left for the final three rounds of the draft.

72. Kitty Hawk - Duran, Luther, CB, Louisiana-Lafayette
73. Providence - Gable, Thurman, DT, Oregon State
74. Puget Sound - Bruce, Bruce, RB, Middle Tenn. St.
75. Memphis - Ballard, Devin, G, North Carolina
76. Ypsilanti - Stricklin, Kyle, T, Louisiana State
77. Death Valley - Kirk, Blake, ILB, Maryland
78. Athens - Boyer, Artie, DT, Central Michigan
79. Fort Wayne - Hawkins, J.T., WR, Central Michigan
80. Fort Knox - Logan, Bennie, WR, Washington
81. Tijuana - Weber, Kerry, ILB, Duke
82. Lake Erie - Einard, Bert, S, Rice
83. Bermuda - Groce, Perry, OLB, Texas A&M
84. Napa Valley - Quinn, Bucky, OLB, Virginia Union
85. Sacramento - Money, Jim, OLB, Stanford
86. Nashua - Briggs, Jamie, ILB, Tulane
87. Champaign - Chapman, Orlando, CB, Oklahoma
89. Sacramento - Benton, Darren, WR, Wake Forest
90. Little Rock - McIntyre, Michael, RB, Missouri Southern
91. Norfolk - Ellard, Mercury, T, UNLV
92. Texarkana - Williamson, Lincoln, G, Washington
93. Manhattan - Robbins, Bobby, T, Southern Mississippi
94. Tulsa - Whitlock, Kennedy, T, Utah
95. Louisville - Whited, Michael, S, Miami, Florida
96. Sault Ste. Marie - Hayes, Melvin, OLB, Southern California
97. Niagara Falls - Handel, Nick, WR, Alabama
98. Thunder Bay - Shannon, Michael, ILB, Army
99. Norfolk - Carter, Martin, CB, Michigan State
100. Wheeling - Ulrich, Kennedy, C, Fresno State
101. Pensacola - Rollins, Karl, WR, Rice
102. Thunder Bay - Peterson, Myron, G, Michigan
103. Fort Knox - Whitfield, Harry, C, Wake Forest

I had in the back of my mind that we might grab RB Bruce Bruce next time around, and ad my view set to the RB queue, where he was on top – but alas, he went quickly only a couple picks after ours. So, we shelve that plan – but still might be looking for a backup RB in the coming selections.

With our LB targets all off the board, I’m looking all over to find “value picks” wherever we can. I don’t know where a developmental QB fits into our plans, but Bennie Tittle out of Boston College looks like a pretty solid selection. He’s also an Aquarius, which happens to slot him pretty nicely with our current chemistry planning.

Safety Sammie Hudgins is a ballhawking guy who would give us still more secondary depth – but safety is often an easy spot to fill anyway, so hew may not be a priority here. No affinity prospects there, though.

CB Brian Shields is another CB/return man similar to Luther Duran, but still is value at this point, in my judgement (unless it turns out that guys like him are now too abundant in the TCY files, which I suppose is possible).

CB Orlando McNair is a guy I would switch to safety, and at 206 lbs I’m sure he’d switch over well – and become a top run stuffer and a good affinity addition. I like him.

There are really a number of decent backup-quality LBs out here, as well – enough to make me think it’s not a priority position right away – but it’s certainly an option. Other than the fact that there are ten draftable guys there, I’d say there were ten draftable guys there (if you get my drift).

OC Fritz had previously identified RB Brett Atkins as a target guy, a decent reserve RB and another high affinity guy. Could work here, and fill a pretty obvious team need. There are other RBs I would consider, too—Rodney Hall, Luke Withers—but Atkins is a definite “click.” Adrian Kwan is also available, and was also identified as a possible affinity addition.

Not a lot left at OL or Guard in particular – Anthony Molina and Clarence Banks would be affinity pickups, but not starters. T Andre Hines might be worth a look, but I think post-draft makes more sense that taking him here.

On the DL, there are a few marginal prospects, some of whom would have an affinity – but I have trouble seeing any of them as the most pressing need with this selection.

Any more thoughts?

If it were totally up to me, I think I'd probably go with DB McNair here, and expect to get a RB with the next pick, probably either Kwan or Atkins.

QuikSand

09-01-2003, 08:07 PM

bump for some Tuesday action, hopefully.

Buzzbee

09-01-2003, 10:25 PM

After reviewing the files, my thoughts:

Need positions currently (IMO):

RB (have 2) - Need a solid backup
TE (have 2) - Have starter and possible capable backup. Need depth - required position
DE? (Have 3) - Have 2 quality starters and one serviceable backup. Draft anticipating injuries?
S (have 2) - Solid starting SS, marginal starting FS. No one else.

Based on the above, I would lean toward a safety. Either Sammie Hudgins or Rodney Jefferson. Both are Scorpio, so they'd be conflict neutral.

Of course their are two TE's who are a little intriguing. We need a third TE and Andrew Small and Corey Jospeh are both Taurus like TE Diana, our receivers leader. Neither would threaten to start, but are near the top of the board in future ratings and grade.

CB Brian Shields is out since he is a Saggitarius and would conflict with Secondary leader Hawkins - Cancer. If a CB is our pick, I'd probably also second McNair.

In summary, I like either Hudgins or Jefferson as Safety. If we want to go offensive, either TE Small or Joseph. And if none of those float your boat, McNair.

I'd like to hear what OC Fritz thinks about picking a TE or RB. A TE hasn't been picked recently (at least since our last pick and probably before that). I'm thinking they are beginning to get into the value range for the CPU to start picking. However, we need a backup RB, and the pickings are getting pretty slim (perhaps so much so that it really doesn't matter who or when we take a RB).

Bee

09-02-2003, 07:16 AM

Sorry I wasn't active recently. I had major work around the house to do over Labor Day weekend, which I hope to finish up tonight.

QuikSand

09-02-2003, 07:40 AM

Originally posted by Buzzbee
After reviewing the files, my thoughts:

Need positions currently (IMO):
S (have 2) - Solid starting SS, marginal starting FS. No one else.

Based on the above, I would lean toward a safety. Either Sammie Hudgins or Rodney Jefferson. Both are Scorpio, so they'd be conflict neutral.

...

If a CB is our pick, I'd probably also second McNair.

In summary, I like either Hudgins or Jefferson as Safety. If we want to go offensive, either TE Small or Joseph. And if none of those float your boat, McNair.

While there is admittedly some added risk with my preference, I think McNair will switch over to safety pretty seamlessly, giving us a guy there with excelletn run support and very good interception skills) the two things I mainly look for there). Assuming the switch is prety painless, I think he'd be better than either of the pure safeties available.

Fritz

09-02-2003, 08:34 AM

My list of total positional needs:

QB
2RB
TE
G
T
K
DE
2 MLB
2 CB
2 S
------
Just looking at off:

QB Bennie Tittle (Aquarius) could be a nice project QB. If he holds up at all he could be a starter in 2-4 seasons.

RB Bruce, Withers, Strong (whom I like a lot), and Atkins top my list

TE Freddie Donaldson looks good. I would say that if we dont get him, we should wait until after the draft to look at TE3

G Lincoln Williamson (cancer, but low leadership), Devin Ballard (Pisces, but 73 leadership) would be nice

T Lawrence Farley (Libra) strikes me as a good fit , Grant Murtaugh ( Sagittarius )will be better than advertised.

Fritz

09-02-2003, 08:37 AM

PASSING OUT OF A 2 TE formation:

In a game at home I had a new QB who knew all the 2 TE fromations, 2 strong TEs and crap at WR so I tried to build a pasing game around TEs. TE2 does not seem to see any action.

albionmoonlight

09-02-2003, 09:15 AM

As DC, I also vote for safety depth and will trust QS's experience on drafting McNair and switching him.

However, if we can get a potential starting QB this late (I don't have the files in front of me to check), then I might be tempted to go with Tittle here.

Fritz

09-02-2003, 10:35 AM

If CB is the direction we are going, I can't see why we would look any further than Luther Duran.

QuikSand

09-02-2003, 11:05 AM

Originally posted by Fritz
If CB is the direction we are going, I can't see why we would look any further than Luther Duran.

Please read above... we already drafted Luther Duran, and are another round past that pick. RB Bruce Bruce is also gone already.

QuikSand

09-02-2003, 11:14 AM

I wanted to get both CB McNair and QB Tittle here, and fortunately we area able to get them both with our picks in rounds four and five – see below:

- - -

104. Kitty Hawk - McNair, Orlando, CB, Georgia

105. Providence - Bradley, Joey, G, Maryland
106. Puget Sound - Hudgins, Sammie, S, Pittsburgh
107. Memphis - Jarvis, Corwin, FB, Michigan
108. Ypsilanti - DeWaters, Hardy, FB, Stanford
109. Death Valley - Upshaw, Antoine, G, Akron
110. Athens - Dragonajtys, Scottie, T, Oklahoma
111. Fort Wayne - Rice, Robert, OLB, Iowa State
112. Fort Knox - Jefferson, Rodney, S, Western Michigan
113. Ocean City - Benson, Rex, OLB, Ball State
114. Lake Erie - Erickson, Carlos, K, Miami, Ohio
115. Bermuda - Lyons, Billy Joe, DT, Stanford
116. Napa Valley - Small, Andrew, TE, Michigan
117. Key West - Donaldson, Freddie, TE, Wake Forest
118. Nashua - Whalen, Luke, WR, Auburn
119. Champaign - Cuomo, Jessie, ILB, Virginia Tech
120. Cheyenne - Shields, Brian, CB, Florida
121. Sacramento - McNeil, Derrick, S, Army
122. Little Rock - Vallejo, T.J., WR, Texas A&M
123. Champaign - Goodwin, Herman, ILB, Rice
124. Texarkana - Chitwood, Joe, TE, Texas Tech
125. Manhattan - Mahoney, Nicky, OLB, Ohio State
126. Tulsa - Fletcher, Tommie, CB, Baylor
127. Louisville - Hutton, Jumbo, WR, Arkansas State
128. Providence - Gilmore, Brad, S, Michigan
129. Niagara Falls - Riley, Carlos, S, Texas Christian
130. Thunder Bay - Wertlieb, J.J., CB, Texas A&M
131. Norfolk - Hofmann, Geoff, WR, Missouri
132. Wheeling - Goga, Daryl, CB, Virginia Tech
133. Pensacola - Murtaugh, Grant, T, Arkansas
134. Tijuana - Derricott, Kent, S, Louisville
135. Hawk Mountain - Farmer, Sammie, G, Texas A&M

36. Kitty Hawk - Tittle, Bennie, QB, Boston College

137. Providence - Brautlacht, Glen, G, Louisiana State
138. Puget Sound - Moore, Jake, DT, North Texas
139. Memphis - Henson, Edwin, S, UAB
140. Ypsilanti - Mitchell, Norm, CB, Texas Tech
141. Death Valley - Hewitt, Charles, WR, Wake Forest
142. Athens - Jenkins, Phillip, C, Wisconsin
143. Fort Wayne - Mitchell, Colin, OLB, Colorado
144. Fort Knox - Harrison, Bo, S, California
145. Ocean City - Centeno, Tommy, WR, Baylor
146. Providence - Clement, Korey, WR, Southern California
147. Bermuda - Farley, Lawrence, T, Arkansas
148. Napa Valley - Keyes, Joey, G, Washington State
149. Key West - Lovejoy, Emmanuel, G, Miami, Ohio
150. Nashua - Cardona, Leland, OLB, West Virginia
151. Champaign - Banks, Deon, S, Virginia Tech
152. Cheyenne - Anthony, Malcolm, G, Fresno State
153. Sacramento - Koethe, Deion, DE, Texas Christian
154. Little Rock - Willis, Sedrick, OLB, Edinboro
155. Mazatlan - Rios, Adam, S, Virginia Tech
156. Texarkana - Pence, Wesley, DE, Tennessee
157. Manhattan - Anthony, Sherman, FB, San Jose State
158. Tulsa - Stablein, Rich, WR, Alabama
159. Hawk Mountain - Rivers, Jim, OLB, Louisiana-Lafayette
160. Sault Ste. Marie - Joseph, Cory, TE, Illinois
161. Niagara Falls - Shaw, Desmond, TE, Rice
162. Thunder Bay - Hines, Andre, T, Syracuse
163. Norfolk - Whelan, Corwin, OLB, Cincinnati
164. Wheeling - Meier, Harris, OLB, Missouri
165. Pensacola - Morris, Scott, DE, Northern Illinois
166. Tijuana - Shaw, Ron, WR, Nevada
167. Ypsilanti - Carbajal, Lonnie, DT, Florida State

So, we are up to our selection in round six – with two more rookie to lock up for at least two seasons.

My quick look sees a few guys we have talked about still out there:
RB Adrian Kwan
RB Brett Atkins
LB Damon McPherson
CB Drew Shannon
... and I’m sure there are others.

Get me some feedback, and I will move through the rest of the draft later today, if possible.