Inside The Park Info [Archive] - Front Office Football Central

lynchjm24

08-24-2003, 09:38 PM

Originally posted by JonInMiddleGA
It's not just you lynchjim, it's not just you.

If you really want to get annoyed with this hokey piece of crap read this.

http://www.donnacom.com/ootpideas.html

All these terrific OOTP ideas that will be put off for years while this thing (ITP) is developed. I can't even put into words how amazed I am that this thing is even being produced and that there are people who actually think it's a good idea.

I know I have different tastes then many, but the overall goal of the game is to see what the price of your rookie card is someday?

:confused:

mckerney

08-24-2003, 10:05 PM

Originally posted by lynchjm24
I'm sure I'm in the minority, but this sounds like a big waste of time. The whole concept behind it is just lame.

I'd have to agree with you. The method of development is standard for any RPG it seems, you learn as time goes on and you gain experience, but you also increase skills from books and buying items. That's fine with me for an RPG, though not for a sports game. I don't really like the idea of buying shoes that make you more able to steal bases, gloves that make you better at catching, or learning to control your fastball from just reading a book. To me using a magic bat that makes you better at hitting is cheating (Fuck you Roy Hobbs!).

mckerney

08-24-2003, 10:07 PM

Dola: And since when do professional atheletes buy their own equipment?

Ksyrup

08-24-2003, 10:12 PM

Inside the park...outside my interest.

Killebrew

08-24-2003, 11:32 PM

I'm very interested in buying the game, but only if it includes both spell-casting and highly accurate historical play. http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/images/smilies/steering.gif

Shkspr

08-24-2003, 11:35 PM

I wanna play a dwarf. Think of all the free passes you'd get. But you'd always get pinch-run for.

CamEdwards

08-24-2003, 11:46 PM

the idea seemed very cool to me, until I started reading some of the specifics. It's a shame, really. I was looking forward to this game until I learned how it will actually play out.

TroyF

08-25-2003, 12:35 AM

Didn't pay attention to this until now. I gave the thread about 45 seconds of my time. That's 45 seconds more than I'll be playing the game.

TroyF

Honolulu Blue

08-25-2003, 02:52 AM

I've been tracking this game for a long time. I was excited about the game a year ago, and I'm still excited about it. The fact that Markus and ITP obviously have their tongues planted in their cheeks does not lessen the appeal for me.

Schmidty

08-25-2003, 03:06 AM

Regardless of what all the curmudgeons say, I think this game sounds fun. Sometimes good old brain dead entertainment is the best kind.......as long as it doesn't cost more than $25.00 or so.

FBPro

08-25-2003, 03:09 AM

Simple solution.....

Sounds like a good/fun/interesting game to you = purchase it.
Doesn't sound like a good/fun.......yada, yada, yada = don't.

:)

mckerney

08-25-2003, 03:29 AM

Originally posted by Schmidty
Regardless of what all the curmudgeons say, I think this game sounds fun. Sometimes good old brain dead entertainment is the best kind.......as long as it doesn't cost more than $25.00 or so.

Since when am I a curmudgeon? :confused:

Schmidty

08-25-2003, 04:22 AM

Originally posted by mckerney
Since when am I a curmudgeon? :confused:

Don't worry, champ. I think you're swell. :p

daedalus

08-25-2003, 04:55 AM

Originally posted by lynchjm24
If you really want to get annoyed with this hokey piece of crap read this.

http://www.donnacom.com/ootpideas.html

All these terrific OOTP ideas that will be put off for years while this thing (ITP) is developed. I can't even put into words how amazed I am that this thing is even being produced and that there are people who actually think it's a good idea.

I know I have different tastes then many, but the overall goal of the game is to see what the price of your rookie card is someday?

:confused:I'm not sure what Markus' decision to develop a game has anything to do with how someone's ideas on what they'd like to see changed in OOTP. Maybe I can see it if that was Markus' outline on the changes he intends to make to the OOTP serie once he's done with ITP. But it's not.

I'm also not sure why it's amazing that this game is being developed. You don't like it, peachy. Don't play it, don't follow it. I don't see how that makes it a bad game or a bad idea just because it isn't your cup of Earl Grey. I mean, I suppose I'm having a tough time seeing myself being pissed that Carmack is wasting his time with those damn useless FPS engines when he could make a killer sports simulation. It just seems . . . odd to me.

lynchjm24

08-25-2003, 06:21 AM

Originally posted by daedalus
I'm not sure what Markus' decision to develop a game has anything to do with how someone's ideas on what they'd like to see changed in OOTP. Maybe I can see it if that was Markus' outline on the changes he intends to make to the OOTP serie once he's done with ITP. But it's not.

I'm also not sure why it's amazing that this game is being developed. You don't like it, peachy. Don't play it, don't follow it. I don't see how that makes it a bad game or a bad idea just because it isn't your cup of Earl Grey. I mean, I suppose I'm having a tough time seeing myself being pissed that Carmack is wasting his time with those damn useless FPS engines when he could make a killer sports simulation. It just seems . . . odd to me.

It has nothing to do with the actual ideas - it has to do with where the programming resources are being spent.

Yes, I find it amazing that someone who has taken OOTP to where it is would then program a game where you buy magic shoes, wonderboy bats and books about throwing spitters. While I'm sure that there will be current OOTP fans attracted to this game, most of the OOTP community looks for the game in the future to become more realistic. They want things like 40-man rosters, waiver systems, scheduled doubleheaders. They just don't seem to me like the type of crowd that is going to be interested in this game.

Of course I may be wrong, but the game just feels so painfully lame. I haven't followed it to this point, and past this thread I won't follow it. I sure as hell won't play it. I'm not sure why voicing this opinion is so distasteful to you. I would guess that had ITP been presented this way originially, the amount of negative feedback would have killed it in the beginning.

Ben E Lou

08-25-2003, 06:29 AM

Originally posted by lynchjm24
It has nothing to do with the actual ideas - it has to do with where the programming resources are being spent.Maybe Jim had an idea of the horrible direction this game was headed and that the programming resources were being spent outside the interest of true sports text sims fans and decided to develop Front Office Baseball??? (hopeful thinking....)

Bee

08-25-2003, 06:43 AM

I think it will be an interesting twist. I'll try the demo (assuming there will be one) and decide if I want the game then.

As far as everyone who's upset about the programmers spending time one developing this...it's their call and they will either suffer or benefit from it financially. The idea seems pretty original to me and going in an original direction may help the company breakout of the small fanbase clique they currently have and get some mainstream attention.

I wish the guys the best of luck with the game and look forward to trying out the demo.

Ksyrup

08-25-2003, 07:48 AM

I heard that in the demo, you're missing your arms and legs. So, you basically get one flyball in the kisser, and that's the extent of it.

GrantDawg

08-25-2003, 07:56 AM

Originally posted by CamEdwards
the idea seemed very cool to me, until I started reading some of the specifics. It's a shame, really. I was looking forward to this game until I learned how it will actually play out.

Ditto.

sterlingice

08-25-2003, 08:09 AM

Originally posted by mckerney
Since when am I a curmudgeon? :confused:

Doesn't Andrkl;ahdf;aiwenbfiuahsdfklhasdhf have that title locked up?

SI

Buccaneer

08-25-2003, 08:36 AM

Originally posted by SkyDog
Maybe Jim had an idea of the horrible direction this game was headed and that the programming resources were being spent outside the interest of true sports text sims fans and decided to develop Front Office Baseball??? (hopeful thinking....)

Like programming a couple of "true" football text sims without a decent AI, without customization for rosters and leagues, without multiple human players, without expansion teams, without custom scheduling, etc.? Yep, a true sports text sims that only a few hardcore gamers would want to play. As long as you get what you want, right?

Is that curmudgeonly enough? (hanging on to my title...)

:D

Ben E Lou

08-25-2003, 08:48 AM

Originally posted by Buccaneer
Like programming a couple of "true" football text sims without a decent AI, without customization for rosters and leagues, without multiple human players, without expansion teams, without custom scheduling, etc.? Yep, a true sports text sims that only a few hardcore gamers would want to play. As long as you get what you want, right?

Is that curmudgeonly enough? (hanging on to my title...)

:D 1. AI is decent, could be better, but is decent.
2. I don't care about customization of rosters and leagues.
3. I don't care about multiplayer.
4. I don't care about custom scheduling.
5. Yep. I'm not interested in playing a game that someone else wants to play. Shocker of shockers, I want to play a game that interests me.

Bee

08-25-2003, 08:54 AM

Gotta agree with SkyDog on number 1. While there are some glaring weaknesses with the AI that I think could be fixed, the overall AI in FOF is better than most text sims out there.

I also don't care about multi-player and the customization aspects would be a nice addition but aren't a game killer for me.

Ksyrup

08-25-2003, 08:58 AM

I'd be thrilled to get a baseball game designed by Jim. I'm sure it would be a significant improvement over OOTP in certain areas.

Would I like the best of both worlds and have a combo of the best points of both games? Sure. But I'll take what I can get.

Bee

08-25-2003, 09:00 AM

I can't think of a game I'd less rather it be than baseball. :(

cuervo72

08-25-2003, 09:03 AM

Originally posted by SkyDog
1. AI is decent, could be better, but is decent.
2. I don't care about customization of rosters and leagues.
3. I don't care about multiplayer.
4. I don't care about custom scheduling.
5. Yep. I'm not interested in playing a game that someone else wants to play. Shocker of shockers, I want to play a game that interests me.

1. Well, I haven't played it enough to thrash (i.e. beat unmercifully) the AI, so I'm content with this one for the time being.
2. I would very much like more league customization. The ability to change divisional formats, add/subtract teams, reassign the teams to different cities (rather than just renaming cities where the current teams are based). I think it would also be nice if cities/nicknames weren't universal, but specific to a career.
3. I don't care much about multiplayer either. As long as the computer can trade and draft I'm fine.
4. Custom scheduling would be essential for certain parts of #2.
5. Jim couldn't have said that any better himself... :)

Ksyrup

08-25-2003, 09:05 AM

Speaking of which...Jim...if you are out there...didn't you mention that you might be providing some info on the new game soon? Any time table on that "announcement?"

Fritz

08-25-2003, 09:06 AM

Originally posted by FBPro
Simple solution.....

Sounds like a good/fun/interesting game to you = purchase it.
Doesn't sound like a good/fun.......yada, yada, yada = don't.

In other obvious news:

Sun rises in the morning, sets in the evening.
Boys have a penis, Girls have a vagina.
BOB HOPE IS DEAD!!!!!!!!!!

Butter

08-25-2003, 09:17 AM

Originally posted by Fritz
BOB HOPE IS DEAD!!!!!!!!!!

WHAT?!?!? He had so much life ahead of him!

Oh, sorry. I thought you said "Tom Hanks". I thought Bob Hope died right after his "Spies Like Us" cameo.

KWhit

08-25-2003, 09:44 AM

Right now I have no desire to play ITP. We'll see how it turns out, but from what I've heard it will not be my style.

heybrad

08-25-2003, 10:08 AM

Originally posted by Bee
Gotta agree with SkyDog on number 1. While there are some glaring weaknesses with the AI that I think could be fixed, the overall AI in FOF is better than most text sims out there.
Its always baffled me how people say the AI is good and yet just about every dynasty on here starts out with all the restrictions, and I mean HUGE restrictions, that they have to put on themselves to make the game competitive.

Fritz

08-25-2003, 10:15 AM

hey brad....

CamEdwards

08-25-2003, 10:20 AM

Originally posted by Bee
I can't think of a game I'd less rather it be than baseball. :(

This sentence my brain hurt it made mine.

Bee

08-25-2003, 10:25 AM

Originally posted by heybrad
Its always baffled me how people say the AI is good and yet just about every dynasty on here starts out with all the restrictions, and I mean HUGE restrictions, that they have to put on themselves to make the game competitive.

I think the majority of house rules address 1 or 2 glaring weaknesses in the AI (specifically roster management). The draft AI is pretty solid now and the trade AI isn't that bad either compared to other games out there. I think free agency problems are attributable to the poor roster management.

As far as the game being competitive, what single player text sim is? CM4 is probably the best and I see all the time about players moving a Conference team to the EPL in approximately 10 years. While the .400 Studio games have mulitplayer, for those of us who like single player games there's no challenge from their AI.

Also, most people posting dynasties here are veteran FOF gamers. I've seen quite a few posts from newer players that they don't play with house rules and feel the game is challenging for them.

Like I said, I think there are a couple glaring weaknesses in the AI of FOF but overall it's better than most other text sims out there. CM4 is probably the best IMO. After that, I can't think of any other text sims that I'd put the "overall" single player AI ahead of FOF.

Bee

08-25-2003, 10:25 AM

Originally posted by CamEdwards
This sentence my brain hurt it made mine.

You shoulda tried writing it. :D

mckerney

08-25-2003, 07:09 PM

Originally posted by FBPro
Simple solution.....

Sounds like a good/fun/interesting game to you = purchase it.
Doesn't sound like a good/fun.......yada, yada, yada = don't.

:)

So what you're saying is, "Only fan boys need apply [post]"

Buccaneer

08-25-2003, 07:40 PM

Originally posted by SkyDog
1. AI is decent, could be better, but is decent.

Decent is putting it politely, esp. in regards to roster management.

[/b]2. I don't care about customization of rosters and leagues.
3. I don't care about multiplayer.
4. I don't care about custom scheduling.
5. Yep. I'm not interested in playing a game that someone else wants to play. Shocker of shockers, I want to play a game that interests me. [/B]

That is an awfully selfish view. I would love to have a game that can be enjoyed by me and enjoyed by many others (of those that would be interested in playing) on different levels, esp. in playing against real people and in playing historical settings (as oppose to playing like its 2003 every single season). If you are so in love with playing something so static, why aren't you raving about Diamond Minds? It seems like all you want is a poor-man's version of DM.

Imo, there is no way Jim can match the fun of playing OOTP with FOB. A baseball version of FOF would have limited appeal without the ability to play online leagues and to customize for those that doesn't think there was baseball before 2003. That is why I am really hoping for a Horse Racing sim.

Ben E Lou

08-25-2003, 09:07 PM

Originally posted by Buccaneer
That is an awfully selfish view. I would love to have a game that can be enjoyed by me and enjoyed by many others (of those that would be interested in playing) on different levels, esp. in playing against real people and in playing historical settings (as oppose to playing like its 2003 every single season). If you are so in love with playing something so static, why aren't you raving about Diamond Minds? It seems like all you want is a poor-man's version of DM.Sure it is selfish. I play text sims for my enjoyment, not someone else's. If most non multi-players are honest, they'll say the same thing.

As far as Diamond Mind, not interested. I want a career sim, not a single season sim. I played my share of Strat-O-Matic baseball back in the days when there were no career sims, and I it always left me longing for a career sim. I want to start with fictional players, and draft new fictional guys and watch them develop. I don't care about playing any other way.

kcchief19

08-25-2003, 09:33 PM

In the debate over the OOTP AI versus FOF AI, I believe the true difference is that in FOF you can accumulate the most talented team and usually win while in OOTP you can accumulate the most talented team and not always win. I'm not convinced that difference is due to a superior AI, but rather than the performance of players in OOTP have a much wider range of possible performance, whereas players in FOF will generally play more to their ratings. Frankly, I think the best answer is somewhere in between.

That being said, here is the shocker for those out there that think I'm an unabashed OOTP/400 basher: I wish Markus the best of luck and say bully to him on his game. If he's making a game that he will enjoy playing, I'm sure that it will be a success. For those of you who measure success merely the number of zeroes after the one, it might not be that great, but if Markus makes a game he enjoys and others do to, who cares?

If there is a demo for the game, I'm sure I will try it. If I like it, I'll buy it. That being said, this game was originally slated to come out a year ago. Granted, that's preferable to the TDCB release schedule but ...

AZSpeechCoach

08-25-2003, 09:50 PM

I imagine groupies in ITP will be handled thusly:

Groupie: Hey baby, looking for a good time?

You buy the antibiotic bat to prevent VD.

Groupie: Ready?

You: I put on my robe and wizard hat.

mckerney

08-25-2003, 10:19 PM

Originally posted by AZSpeechCoach
I imagine groupies in ITP will be handled thusly:

Groupie: Hey baby, looking for a good time?

You buy the antibiotic bat to prevent VD.

Groupie: Ready?

You: I put on my robe and wizard hat.

"Sure, they say I'm a decent defensive catcher, but I'm more interested at how you handle balls."

Buccaneer

08-25-2003, 10:35 PM

Originally posted by kcchief19
In the debate over the OOTP AI versus FOF AI, I believe the true difference is that in FOF you can accumulate the most talented team and usually win while in OOTP you can accumulate the most talented team and not always win. I'm not convinced that difference is due to a superior AI, but rather than the performance of players in OOTP have a much wider range of possible performance, whereas players in FOF will generally play more to their ratings. Frankly, I think the best answer is somewhere in between.

That being said, here is the shocker for those out there that think I'm an unabashed OOTP/400 basher: I wish Markus the best of luck and say bully to him on his game. If he's making a game that he will enjoy playing, I'm sure that it will be a success. For those of you who measure success merely the number of zeroes after the one, it might not be that great, but if Markus makes a game he enjoys and others do to, who cares?

If there is a demo for the game, I'm sure I will try it. If I like it, I'll buy it. That being said, this game was originally slated to come out a year ago. Granted, that's preferable to the TDCB release schedule but ...

That is surprising coming from you, Matt. :) But I think you fall into the same trap as I when trying to compare baseball to football. Because of the variability in baseball, you can hide more of the AI and still have it competitive (paraphrasing from QS).

To me, FOF's failings (besides its static mode) is lack of ability for the AI to evaluate and value (price) players adequately. This hurts the competitiveness of the game in two ways: 1) the AI overpays bad talent and throws out good talent (thus creating a team that can't match yours) and 2) makes very good talent available to you, esp. at an undervalued price. All of the significant house rules for FOF come from trying limit taking advantage of acquiring very good players at value prices through trading, drafting and free agency.

OOTP seems to do the same thing but because it's baseball, it is probably a little less obvious. Plus, with the cap in football/FOF and having to implement house rules for caps in baseball/OOTP, that creates a whole different set of dynamics.

Buccaneer

08-25-2003, 10:50 PM

Originally posted by SkyDog
Sure it is selfish. I play text sims for my enjoyment, not someone else's. If most non multi-players are honest, they'll say the same thing.

You are wrong, sir. For me (and others from reading various posts), there is great fun in reading OOTP dynasties ranging from CR's modern Angels, to your modern fictional Braves/Expos career, to HB's alternate history, to my 1960's Cardinals/1970;s Reds/1940-50's BoSox, to various Dead Ball era careers at OOTPdev, to following the Japanese Baseball League (as an outsider) as well as FOBL's massive league, to various other Manager Mode careers that have twists to them, and to other mix and matches of league structures (from 12 to 36 modern/fictional/historical teams) with fictional/historical/modern players in eras ranging from 19th century to well into the future. All we get here is the same FOF dynasties with the same house rules over and over (except for 3ric's quasi-historical attempt).

Ben E Lou

08-26-2003, 05:03 AM

Originally posted by Buccaneer
You are wrong, sir. For me (and others from reading various posts), there is great fun in reading OOTP dynasties ranging from CR's modern Angels, to your modern fictional Braves/Expos career, to HB's alternate history, to my 1960's Cardinals/1970;s Reds/1940-50's BoSox, to various Dead Ball era careers at OOTPdev, to following the Japanese Baseball League (as an outsider) as well as FOBL's massive league, to various other Manager Mode careers that have twists to them, and to other mix and matches of league structures (from 12 to 36 modern/fictional/historical teams) with fictional/historical/modern players in eras ranging from 19th century to well into the future. All we get here is the same FOF dynasties with the same house rules over and over (except for 3ric's quasi-historical attempt). Yes, there is ADDED fun in reading dynasties. However, the game isn't fun if you don't enjoy it personally. I've never read a CM dynasty, for example, other than when I was trying to get into the game.

Samdari

08-26-2003, 07:36 AM

Originally posted by SkyDog
3. I don't care about multiplayer.
I hear this a lot around here. I agree to an extent - at least I do not want to see OOTP style sacrificing of the single player experience in favor of multiplayer. But come on, multiplayer FOF in the FOFC league would be the mother of all online leagues. We could almost have euro soccer style tiered leagues, with promotion and relegation, interest would be through the roof, and you'd be playing with more than just random internet strangers, you be playing against your imaginary internet friends.

Bee

08-26-2003, 07:39 AM

Samdari....

will you be my imaginary internet friend?

Fritz

08-26-2003, 07:44 AM

Originally posted by Samdari
interest would be through the roof

for at least 3 WEEKS

Ben E Lou

08-26-2003, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by Samdari
I hear this a lot around here. I agree to an extent - at least I do not want to see OOTP style sacrificing of the single player experience in favor of multiplayer. But come on, multiplayer FOF in the FOFC league would be the mother of all online leagues. We could almost have euro soccer style tiered leagues, with promotion and relegation, interest would be through the roof, and you'd be playing with more than just random internet strangers, you be playing against your imaginary internet friends. I know there'd be interest for some, but I doubt I'd even seriously consider playing in an online FOF league. By nature, things would move too slowly for my tastes.