OT - Ancient Baghdad puzzle

[QuikSand]

Okay, this one isn't the standard QuikSand puzzle - no real math or anything, just something to try and "noodle."

- - -

Back in about the 10th century there was a doctor who was summoned to Baghdad because of his excellent reputation. After consultation with the Sultan, his first task in the city was to go from neighborhood to neighborhood, hanging up pieces of raw meat by strings all over town. Why did he do this?

[cuervo72]

My first thought is maybe he was trying to attract something to the meat; birds, bugs, rodents? If the latter, maybe to attract them to it but have it out of reach. Then you kill the rodents. Well, maybe that would make sense during the middle ages for the plague (or maybe it doesn't make much sense), but this is BC. Hmm....

[QuikSand]

Please accept my apologies... the date should not be B.C., but A.D. Yes, we're talking about the middle ages... not the bronze age. I am fixing it above... sorry 'bout that.

[albionmoonlight]

Then is the vermin thing correct?

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by albionmoonlight
Then is the vermin thing correct?

No, sorry. The goal is not to kill rats or other pests.

[Coffee Warlord]

He wanted to show the populace what good meat looked like, and what bad meat looked like.

"Eat this when it looks like what it looks like now, not what it looks like in 3 days."

[Coffee Warlord]

Dola!

OR!

Some bacteria that grew on the meat after a few days was possessed of some medicinal quality that cured the populace.

[albionmoonlight]

Some ideas:

The "raw meat on strings" are really dead humans who crossed the Sultan hung by the neck, perhaps to warn the people about crossing the Sultan (though why he would call a doctor to do this makes no sense).

Buliding on Coffee's first suggestion: Perhaps it was a meat from an animal that was now considered inedible (either for religious reasons, i.e. pig, or for health reasons) and was hung to show the people what the forbidden meat looked like.

[Franklinnoble]

I can only imagine this task would attract insects and generate a foul stench. To what end, I have no idea.

[QuikSand]

Okay... some guidance.

The meat was placed around town not to attract the attention of people, but of other things (you've got the general idea there).

But the ultimate purpose of this tactic has not yet been uncovered with the guesses so far.

[Coffee Warlord]

How about this?

The peoples regular food supplies were becoming infected with vermin/insects/whatever.

The meat (likely second rate shit that no self respecting Arab would touch - we're talking about a culture that was WAY more advanced and civilized than europe at that time) was hung to keep the nasties off of the 'good stuff'.

[Franklinnoble]

What's confounding me is that a "doctor" did it. What medicinal purpose could be served in attracting insects?

[Butter]

Wow, I looked up the answer to this on Google. Good one.

[dacman]

I don't think anyone's going to guess this one without knowing the story or googling it.

[cuervo72]

Does it involve the gods? Or demonic birds, that swooped from the sky and pecked peoples' giant freak heads?

[VPI97]

Cool question QS, but damn near impossible to guess.

[Coffee Warlord]

Yeah, I just looked it up myself. Nice one.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by VPI97
Cool question QS, but damn near impossible to guess.

Hmmm... when I first heard this, with a group of people, we got it pretty quickly. I was the one who got the answer, but it was with the suportof other people's comments, who steered us toward the "attracting pests" angle.


Anyway - for those still mulling it over and resisting the web search... here's another nudge:

The point was indeed to put out the meat and attract the various bacteria that would cause it to spoil or rot... the doctor knew that this would happen, and that was (in essence) the point. His ultimate goal, however, was not to change anything per se, but to learn something from the process.

[Franklinnoble]

I caved and googled it... very clever... never would have guessed otherwise.

[cuervo72]

Was he trying to see in what environments the meat would spoil and which they wouldn't, or what the rates of spoiling were? Could this be a) to find a place to store meat (no... :) ), or to find where a particular ailment may be originating?

[Bee]

I looked it up too. I'd have never gotten it otherwise. :D

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by cuervo72
Was he trying to see ... what the rates of spoiling were?

Very good. Now, just one more step... why do this?

[Butter]

(Sorry, QS, I seem to have started a trend. :( )

[albionmoonlight]

Originally posted by QuikSand
Very good. Now, just one more step... why do this?

To see in what areas it spoiled faster (shade, sun, etc.)?

[Franklinnoble]

I'm sure many offended Persians were bringing the matter of spoiled, rotting meat being strung about their neighborhoods before their local homeowners associations.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by albionmoonlight
To see in what areas it spoiled faster (shade, sun, etc.)?

Actually (hint), the reverse -- to see in what area it spoiled most slowly.

[Fonzie]

Hmmm...did they want to determine the best location for a landfill?

[Bee]

Trying to figure out where the best hiding place would be when they played hide and seek with Fritz.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by Fonzie
Hmmm...did they want to determine the best location for a landfill?

No... they are looking for the area where the meat spoils most slowly. So, rather than looking to site a landfill... they are looking to site a...

[Fonzie]

Food storage facility?

[KevinNU7]

I tried googling it but I can't seem to get it, DAMN YOU GOOGLE AND YOU EVIL WAYS!!!!

[albionmoonlight]

Based on those hints, I'll have to say smokehouse/food wherehouse.

[Fonzie]

Perhaps a Sizzlers?

[Bee]

Originally posted by albionmoonlight
Based on those hints, I'll have to say whorehouse.

:eek:

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by QuikSand
No... they are looking for the area where the meat spoils most slowly. So, rather than looking to site a landfill... they are looking to site a...

Well, let me expand a little... just based on what we already have.

Spoiling meat isn't the point in itself, it's the fact that meat spoils because of bacteria (as you pointed out in this thread, and I have confirmed as important). So, it stands to follow that the places where the meat spoils most slowly are the areas where there are the fewest bacteria in the ambient air. The doctor isn't interested in spoiling meat, he's interested in bacteria.

[lurker]

Would the area with the least bacteria be the best place for a hospital?

[KWhit]

The Sultan wanted to know where to build his burial chamber so he wouldn't decompose so fast?

[Coffee Warlord]

Ding ding ding. We have a winner.

Not saying who. :)

[Fonzie]

Was the Sultan looking for the cleanest location to build a new palace?

[Fonzie]

Originally posted by Coffee Warlord
Ding ding ding. We have a winner.

Not saying who. :)

It was my Sizzlers, guess, wasn't it?

[Coffee Warlord]

Close. It was actually for a Red Lobster, but I'd consider it close. :)

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by lurker
Would the area with the least bacteria be the best place for a hospital?

That's the answer we're looking for. The doctor, known as Rhazes, was brought in by the Sultan to help build a hospital. His understanding of infections and airborne contaminants was ahead of its time... and this stund (likely apocryphal) is now used as evidence of his forward thinking. He was also supposed to have done pioneering work in understanding the nature of infectious diseases like smallpox.

[Buccaneer]

But I don't follow the logic. Why would there be a place of less airborne diseases? Wouldn't any such pests eventually find there way to all of the meats thus rendering any spatial connectiveness irrelevant? Seems to me the goal, if you knew of airborne diseases, would be to prevent them from getting in the hospital - regardless of where it would be located.

[Franklinnoble]

Originally posted by Buccaneer
But I don't follow the logic.

Don't argue with 10th century Persian logic.

Oh, wait... I forgot... you're the old guy. Were you there at the time? Please enlighten us... ;)

[Chief Rum]

Also, can someone please dispel me from my notion that the concept of microscopic germ carriers wasn't established until much later? I may be falling into the age-old assumption of the "first European to think of something was the first man to think of something" bias, but I thought the concept of miscroscopic germ carriers like bacteria wasn't even considered a possibility until the 1600s.

If that is in fact not a faulty assumption, on what basis was this doctor choosing to dot his? Had it already been noted that sick people and dead meat tended to do badly in the same areas as each other? Or did this doctor actually have a concept of microscopic germ carriers long before I even thought humanity considered the possibility?

CR

[Coffee Warlord]

Well, you gotta figure.

The Arabic lands never went through the Dark Ages. They were the most culturally and scientifically advanced area for quite some time after the Roman Empire fell. A LOT of things Europe 'discovered' was in practice for a long while out in the desert.

I can't say for certain, but I'd say it stands to reason that the Arabs had at least a theory on microscopic disease type deals around that time.

Failing that, there's always the genius theory. There were likely a lot of folks with very advanced ideas that never really got credited, due to whatever state of affairs existed when/wherever. This doctor may have just been a few hundred years ahead of his time, and while his results were stellar, noone could really buy into the theories he was offering.

[cuervo72]

I caved and searched for this, the document I found stated that soon after this, Bagdad had on the order of 60 hospitals or so.

Muslim nations were quite advanced - until fundamentalism became prevalent.

[Chief Rum]

I'm still not quite buying that 10th century Muslims, or even their most intelligent members, actually believed that something they couldn't see was the cause of disease and infection. To my knowledge, this sort of theory of disease (they didn't have anything at the time to confirm it) wasn't suggested for centuries, and wasn't even accepted the world over until sometime in the 19th century, I believe. And I believe that went for everyone, be they Arabic, Chinese, or European.

I do think it is quite probable that the symptoms of disease could be seen quite clearly as happening more or less frequently in different areas. That would be quite logical and well within the grasp of even European medieval culture, much less the more advanced Arabic society of the time.

It would be interesting if this doctor actually did have a personal theory of disease which involved "invisible" germ-carrying life. It is quite possible that a great thinker or healer of the time might come up with something like this, but not ever really call attention to it (maybe because of fear of being ridiculed?).

Chief Rum

[Fonzie]

Originally posted by Chief Rum
I do think it is quite probable that the symptoms of disease could be seen quite clearly as happening more or less frequently in different areas. That would be quite logical and well within the grasp of even European medieval culture, much less the more advanced Arabic society of the time.

I suspect this, or something quite like it, is probably what was behind this puzzle/story. An astute observer who roams good-sized population centers working with sick people, as this doctor would have done, could probably notice an association between regions with high insect populations and regions with frequent or rapid disease outbreaks. He wouldn't need a theory to explain how this association worked, he'd only need to note that it existed.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by Chief Rum
I'm still not quite buying that 10th century Muslims, or even their most intelligent members, actually believed that something they couldn't see was the cause of disease and infection.

I cannot really dispute your claim/hypotyhesis... but in my mind, it may not be too far-fetched if there was someone at that time whose ideas went only as far as those in your first sentence from above (quoted). Not necessarily any real understanding of microorganisms, but some general sense that there was some common link between disease and spoilage... or that there was some ambient presence that caused both things, in some way.

In theory, there could be a whole range of theories that are totally wrong that would still correspond fine with the exercise described in the puzzle. A misguided genius might theorize that there are certain "holy lands" that the gods smile upon more than others, and that it's this holiness that makes for a suitable location for the healing arts (and is also somehow connected to freshness in foods). He might not realize at all that the immediacy of human waste or standing water or other potential hazards had anything to do with it-- but even with all that misguided thinking, he might have reached a completely logical "trial" for the location of a hospital.


As for Bucc's practical complaint - I have no idea if there's any truth to it at all. It stands to reason, in my mind, that there may well be examples of areas that would be higher in contaminants than others-- like I mention above, adjacent obvious sources of potential problems might be one reason, maybe things like exposure to sunlight woudl be others, I don't know. In a culture that doesn't understand even the basic principles of hygiene and health, it's hard to imagine what kinnd of egregious "mistakes" might be made in terms or modern public health (with water supply, food care, etc.). I certainly lack any technical knowledge to rule out your theory that this would be a non-factor... but so, too, would the "reasonable" puzzle participant, then... rendering the puzzle fine for all intents and purposes in my mind.

[Emmett13]

He hung up the meat, the doctor waited by it. Whoever tried to steal it was executed... Or not that doctor thing is screwing me up

[Nyarlahotep]

Originally posted by Chief Rum
I'm still not quite buying that 10th century Muslims, or even their most intelligent members, actually believed that something they couldn't see was the cause of disease and infection. To my knowledge, this sort of theory of disease (they didn't have anything at the time to confirm it) wasn't suggested for centuries, and wasn't even accepted the world over until sometime in the 19th century, I believe. And I believe that went for everyone, be they Arabic, Chinese, or European.

I do think it is quite probable that the symptoms of disease could be seen quite clearly as happening more or less frequently in different areas. That would be quite logical and well within the grasp of even European medieval culture, much less the more advanced Arabic society of the time.

It would be interesting if this doctor actually did have a personal theory of disease which involved "invisible" germ-carrying life. It is quite possible that a great thinker or healer of the time might come up with something like this, but not ever really call attention to it (maybe because of fear of being ridiculed?).

Chief Rum


The Greeks didn't have anything to confirm the existence of atoms in the 5th century BC, however this did not stop them from theorizing that matter was made of them. 10th and 11th centuries were times of great advance by Muslims. They were in fact hundreds of years ahead of their European counterparts. They required physicians to pass a test and pharmacists to be liscensed. In fact the doctor who performed the experiment in this thread wrote many books, some of which were in use in Europe until the 16th century. He did in fact associate diseases with human contamination and contagion, although it was several hundred years before Ibn Khatima stated that man is surrounded by minute bodies which enter the human system and cause disease. It was a few hundred more before Anton van Leeuwenhoek saw bacteria and a couple hundred after that when Louis Pasteur came up with his germ theory.

[Chief Rum]

So in other words I was right. :)

He saw the symptoms, but didn't necessarily attribute it to disease-causing microorganisms. He merely saw that sickness in humans seemed to be exacerbated in certain situations. This made a lot more sense to me.

CR