Defensive Coaches

[damnMikeBrown]

Anybody know what their effect is? Is it a baseline number, or is it dependent upon your team?

For example, does it always bump up the defense 1-2 levels

or

Does it give a bump of, say, 20% of your defensive level?


For that matter, are offensive coaches the same way? Baseline increases, or a % of your rating.

[Havok]

I think its around 2 levels. So, if you have a "neither attacking or defending" coach and you get excellent/excellent/excellent defensive ratings. Then with a defensive coach you'll probally Outstanding/ Outstanding/ Outstanding.

But you'll lose around 1 1/2 levels of offense aswell. But i could be wrong, DK would be a good person to ask about this since he's had a defensive coach and a "Niether attacking nor defending coach". But he doesn't post here much anymore :(

Maybe you could PM him......

[NAIWF]

Defensive coaches provide about double the benefits of an offensive one from what I've seen. I have the best defenders in my series, and about the 3rd best goalie. Even with that, and a 4-5-1, I've routinely seen other guys put up better defensive ratings simply because of their coach. Very lame.

[damnMikeBrown]

Yup..was curious. I run 3 solid defenders, and a very talented keeper with a defensive coach. Last week I put up an extra-terrestrial rating..that running a 3-5-2. Just curious, when I hire my new coach, what the difference would be if I went for an offensive one.

I know the rule of thumb is 2 levels or so, but what if that's just "newbie reckoning". It could be just a commong perception. Most new teams can throw up an excellent/solid defense, so a 20% jump would look like 1.5-2 levels. Note: I'm pulling the 20% out of thin air. Then again, it could just be a flat 1.5-2 levels, and I'm over thinking it.

[NAIWF]

From my week 3 game this season...

My team
-Right Defense: Formidable (9)
-Central Defense: Formidable (9)
-Left Defense: Excellent (8)

Ross' Roughriders
-Right Defense: Formidable (9)
-Central Defense: Formidable (9)
-Left Defense: Formidable (9)

Comments

I don't understand how I have the 4 best defenders in the league, yet I'm putting up lower defensive stats than just about anyone else... They seem to have overrated the defensive coaches. How else can 3 men and a goalie totalling 9 stars outrate my 4 men, goalie and 16 stars?

PS. The experience totals were equal more or less. And even with an extra 8 weeks of training, my defense has only improved a total of 5 levels across the back. My next coach will certainly be a defensive one as I'll be a 13/14 across the boards instead of 10's like now.

[damnMikeBrown]

Well, keeper is primary in every defensive rating. If his defenders were all inad. types and his keeper was Excellent/Formid, he maybe could have pulled that. He'd still be relatively low on the * total that way too.

[Blade6119]

I have 3 passable defenders, but an oustanding gk and i put up a couple(maybe3-4) levels above that...but i also have a defensive coach...

[Vince]

Yeah, offensive coaches tend to put a huge damper on defensive ratings...

I've got a Solid keeper in Solid form (mid Solid on the keeper, high Solid on the form), two Solid D wingbacks and an Excellent D Central Defender, and I get Passable/Solid D ratings...go figure.

[FrogMan]

Originally posted by Vince
Yeah, offensive coaches tend to put a huge damper on defensive ratings...

I've got a Solid keeper in Solid form (mid Solid on the keeper, high Solid on the form), two Solid D wingbacks and an Excellent D Central Defender, and I get Passable/Solid D ratings...go figure.

Wow, Vince, this is pretty low. I also have an offensive coach, a mid solid keeper in passable form (value at around 400k), one passable wingback on defensive with a passable central defender on one side and a solid wingback on defensive on the other side (the weak side) and I usually get excellent accross de board...

I also get some help from one inner midfield with inadequate defending that I usually play defensive on the weak side.

Are you playing your wingbacks defensive or getting some help from your midfield? Maybe that could help your defensive ratings...

FM

[FrogMan]

dola, you know I didn't really it's pretty low, but that I would expect higher with 4 solids in the backfield... ;)

FM

[NAIWF]

Just to be more thorough, the Roughriders goalie was a high passable/low solid for that game based on value, so my goalie had him beat as well.

I don't think anyone in my series has an excellent+ keeper and yet I see teams with 3 solid defenders and pass/solid goalies beat my 4 excellents and mid solid goalie in the ratings. They all have defensive coaches, which leads me to think the defensive bonus from a coach is at least double that of the offensive one.

[daedalus]

Originally posted by Vince
Yeah, offensive coaches tend to put a huge damper on defensive ratings...

I've got a Solid keeper in Solid form (mid Solid on the keeper, high Solid on the form), two Solid D wingbacks and an Excellent D Central Defender, and I get Passable/Solid D ratings...go figure.As Frogger said, that's insanely low. Your wingbacks have put up 1-2 stars the last two games. Is this a problem with forms? Solids should not be putting up 1-2 stars in decent form. I have lesser defenders than you do (generally, a solid and two passables) and generally get better defensive ratings than that.

[lytic]

well it's been stated, but I thought I would say it again: Defensive Coaches have become more influencial to the ratings.
Why? Before this, everyone wanted an offensive Coach since offensive ratings seem to mean more. In the offseason of 16 and 17, they decreased the ratings of attacks, but I don't think it did much. We all also know that defense isn't what wins games in hattrick. So by making defensive coaches better, it makes people want one, and helps against the fact that defensive ratings does mean much half of the time.

[damnMikeBrown]

No kidding it doesn't mean much. World class defense against you...3 "experience" event goals, and a 4th experience chance. It'd seem that not only is midfield, and attack more important than defence, but even experience should valued over it as well :(

[Havok]

I think defensive coachs really shine when training scoring in a 3-4-3.

Check out Panthers team or Indy Racing. They have very very balanced ratings.

[lytic]

It wasn't 3 experiece goals... you had 2 misunderstandings between the keeper and the defenders, 1 poor defending, and 1 were my guys flat out beat you.
You as a keeper trainer should counter balance (like myself) and go for an offensive coach.

[damnMikeBrown]

Don't correct my mistakes! Don't make me shift my anger at my defenders on to your Cow Wall! I'm perfectly comfortable clinging to the apparently mistaken belief that I was horribly wronged by my low experience defenders.

Threadjacking my own thread. Thought you were going to mots that game? Change your mind, or just trying to pshych me out?

Back to the topic.

The reason I was curious if it was a flat increase, or a % increase is because I'm a keeper trainer.
If it's a flat increase, it decreases proportionally, and is "worth less" the better my keepers get.
If it is a %, then it is "worth more" as the training progressess.

[-Panther]

I've got 2 solids and a mid-high passable for defenders and a mid passable keeper and my defensive coach gets me formidable-outstanding defense ratings.

I think the balanced coach will be good once more people try one.

I personally think keeper/defender trainers should use offensive coach
PM/winger trainers should use balanced coach
scoring trainers should use defensive coach

as for me, that gives the best balance to the team. I also think more balanced teams will start beating unbalanced awesome attatck/crap D or awesome D/ crap attack once tactics kick in and people get used to them

[lytic]

I believe it's a flat rate, mike.

Who says I didn't MOTS? Didn't you see my midfield from the week before? My TS is spent!

[Vince]

Well, now that I think about it, Alfred Poe is in Wretched form (bleh). Putting in Palmbratt (inad in weak form) got me an Excellent defense on the 'Strong' side (Solid D - Empty - Excellent D - Inadequate D), but only an inadequate on the other side (still low in my opinion :(). Other than Poe (who sat today), my D and keeper are in decent if not great (Keeper in high solid form) form.

EDIT: I'm curious about my coach, however. He's supposed to be an offensive coach, but my four 2.5 star offensive players combined with a midfield sporting Weak-Inad-Passable passing only put up Solids across today. I'm wondering if I'm just getting screwed in the ratings, or what.

[daedalus]

You might consider playing your wingbacks defensive unless you have one with really good winger skill.

What winger skill and passing level do your wingers have? What instructions do you use across the midfield? What scoring level do your strikers feature?

[Vince]

Wingers -

Esteban Jose Pinilla (Offensive)-
Winger = Passable
Passing = Inadequate
Experience = Poor

Tuncer Kuscu (Offensive)-
Winger = Solid
Passing = Weak
Experience = Weak

Midfield Orders are all normal (passing ratings = Weak, Inadequate, Passable)

Strikers (both normal)-

Giel Rijnders -
Scoring = Passable
Passing = Solid
Experience = Weak

Chad Cahill -
Scoring = Passable
Passing = Passable
Experience = Wretched

[daedalus]

Just my opinions . . .Originally posted by Vince
Esteban Jose Pinilla (Offensive)-
Winger = Passable
Passing = Inadequate
Experience = PoorYou need a major upgrade here. He isn't really going to provide you with very much offense from that wing. Unless he's one of them crazy toward-middle/possession type of winger.Tuncer Kuscu (Offensive)-
Winger = Solid
Passing = Weak
Experience = WeakThe solid winger skill and weak experience are pretty good, the weak passing leaves a fair bit to be desired. To maximize one of your wing offense, I'd put him on the same side as your passable passing inner midfielder. Then look at which side your opponent typically leave weaker and switch them to the side to take advantage of it.Midfield Orders are all normal (passing ratings = Weak, Inadequate, Passable)Unless one of those inner midfielders are the defensive type that you want to preserve their defense, I'd suggest putting them on offensive to give your offense a boost.Giel Rijnders -
Scoring = Passable
Passing = Solid
Experience = Weak

Chad Cahill -
Scoring = Passable
Passing = Passable
Experience = WretchedThe forward tandem are pretty solid. Rijnders' weak experience should give him a nice boost. As a pair, they should offer you a pretty useful central attack. The only thing to remember is that they won't add a lot to the wing offense with both featuring passable scoring. One possible solution might be to eventually look for a solid/inadequate or excellent/weak to replace Cahill with to give a small boost to the wing offense.

[Vince]

Thanks for the analysis Daed. The only things I'd mention...

Pinilla also has Inadequate Playmaking (so probably contributing a little to the midfield) and puts up 3 stars in good form, 2.5 in Weak-Inadequate-Passable form.

Cahill (Passable/Passable Forward) also has Solid Set Pieces...the only real reason I haven't replaced him.

My major beef here is that with 10+ stars (I know stars are evil...but you see my point) out of my 'offensive' positions, shouldn't I be getting better than Solid ratings, ESPECIALLY with an offensive minded coach 'boosting' my ratings?

[daedalus]

Originally posted by Vince
Pinilla also has Inadequate Playmaking (so probably contributing a little to the midfield) and puts up 3 stars in good form, 2.5 in Weak-Inadequate-Passable form.Yeah, in which case, he may be worth it. Just make sure he has sufficient stamina to take advantage of the playmaking. As I said, if he's one of those possession-type of winger than it threw what I said out of the window. Hee hee. :)Cahill (Passable/Passable Forward) also has Solid Set Pieces...the only real reason I haven't replaced him.Then he's probably worth it. You have a decent shot at snagging a long shot event out of him. It's not that a passable/passable is something to sneeze at (he'd immediately go to the top of the striker chart on my roster).My major beef here is that with 10+ stars (I know stars are evil...but you see my point) out of my 'offensive' positions, shouldn't I be getting better than Solid ratings, ESPECIALLY with an offensive minded coach 'boosting' my ratings?I'm not of the school of "stars are evil". I find over-reliance on stars ("I have this many stars, I should be Joe Blow") to be a mistake. But it's a good way to measure what kind of contribution a particular player may be giving your team.

Given that your coach is an offensive-minded coach, it probably means he's dragging passables into solids. Why are you getting passables?

If you look at how offenses are considered:

Attack Centre
Scoring forwards (Cahill and Rijnders are both passable)
Passing forwards (Cahill's and Rijnders' above average passing really helps here)
Passing Inner midfielders (Weak, Inadequate, and Passable, all on Normal so no bonus)

Here, Cahill's and Rijnders' relatively low scoring skills are augmented by their good passing skills. Rijnders also has the benefit of a bonus from his weak experience. Not getting a lot of help from the inner midfielders, though. Assuming you can afford the loss of defense, setting some (particularly the Inadequate and the Passable) to offensive may give you a decent boost (and certainly a boost to their star!).

Attack Left wing
Winger Left winger (Pinilla's passable, playing offensive probably gives him an effective solid)
Scoring forwards (Cahill and Rijnders are both passable)
Passing left winger (Inadequate from Pinilla)
Passing left inner midfielder (No idea which of the ratings belongs to Areggo)
Winger left wing back (Don't know what Palmbratt's winger rating is)

Here, Pinilla's and Rijnders' experience boosts aside, there are a few passables (Pinilla's winger can probably be counted as an effective solid with the offensive instruction) and below which might explain why the left wing offense is a passable (before coach bonus).

[Vince]

Hmmm...well with "Attack on wings" and two new wingers in, I got Excellent wing attacks. Here's the difference in players and orders:

Wingers:
Lucas Turpin
Solid Form
Passable Winger
Inadequate PM
Poor Passing
Quick
Put up 2.5 Stars with "Offensive" order

Charles Blum
Passable Form
Solid Winger
Weak PM
Poor Passing
Technical
Put up 2.5 Stars with "Offensive" order

Both are recent youth pulls, and have Disastrous Experience.
We also had two IMs play Offensive, with Poor and Weak passing.

[daedalus]

Nice attacks! Attacking on Wing doesn't give your wing offense a boost, it just directs your offense toward the wings instead (in situations where they may have been in the middle).

Playing your inner midfielders offensive (boost to inner midfielders' passing) along with your wingers (boost to wingers' winger skill) definitely helped there. Turpin's form may have helped a bit as well. But excellent attacks are darn good results. And Havok would tell you about the fun of having a quick winger. Congratulations. :)

The only to worry about playing these two together is weather. If it's going to be rainy, you'll have problem with both (more so with Blum) so you might need to keep another on hand.

Maybe you can see how it turns out with Pinilla and Kuscu this weekend with your inner midfielders on offensive since you have 2 pretty good passers there.

[Vince]

Yeah, I realized after I had posted that the 'Attack on Wings' had no effect upon my ratings, just that more of my attacks would be rolled agaisnt their Wing defense (which, ironically enough, worked perfectly because his defense sucked on the wings...since it was a friendly, I hadn't checked on that at all).

I'm wondering how much of an effect the Winger's playmaking has on midfield. I don't know that I'll be willing to risk the loss in midfield to play it (Blum) in a league game.

[daedalus]

Unless you play defenders with offensive instructions, then wingers' contribution to your midfield is the only contribution you'll get besides the inner midfielders. So, it's going to be worth at least some (and having ANY is obviously better than none) so having either Pinilla or Turpin in the game will probably be of help. Just have to make sure they have sufficient stamina to actually make use of their playmaking skill. Another big thing about Turpin, too, is his specialty which is great on the wing. With the season coming to a close (I don't know your league situation), you might be better try testing either Turpin or Blum with the starting inner midfield in the offseason to see what kind of results you'll get.

[thealmighty]

Ever since I got an offensive minded coach, I have been giving up goals out the ass. I think I will change in the offseason.

[Easy Mac]

I love my defensive coach, at least ratings wise. I routinely pull outstandings and occasionally a brilliant (or formidable with injury) because of him. I think he may have hurt my offensive ratings, however.

[lytic]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
I love my defensive coach, at least ratings wise. I routinely pull outstandings and occasionally a brilliant (or formidable with injury) because of him. I think he may have hurt my offensive ratings, however.

You've Dungyzed your offense!

[Blade6119]

i pull 3 brilliants with my def. coach...and still solids and passables up front..