Ichiro or Matsui?

[Fujiko]

I lke Ichiro!

[KevinNU7]

So I open this thread and see this quote at the top of the screen:

How dare you ask me to choose between the two. It's like giving me the choice between Parker Posey or Sue Bird. Can't I just have both and explore the differences in each?

-TroyF

[Senator]

I prefer these guys:


Masaichi Kaneda: Probably the greatest pitcher in Japanese history, Kaneda won 400 games and struck out 4,490 batters in his career despite pitching for the perennially bad Swallows. He lost 23 games by 1-0 scores.


Sadaharu Oh: Said to have the power of Hank Aaron and the eye of Ted Williams, Oh hit a record 868 home runs during his career. The left-handed hitting Oh had a distinctive stance, lifting his right leg as if he were a dog at a fire hydrant, but the style worked for him. He hit between 40-55 home runs every year but one from 1962-1976, and that in a 130-game season. Oh honed his stroke by swinging a sword at a piece of paper suspended from the ceiling by a string. He went on to manage after he retired as a player.


Eiji Sawamura: The right-hander nearly beat a traveling all-star team in 1935, consecutively striking out four future Hall-of-Famers Charlie Gehringer, Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig and Jimmie Foxx. Three decades before Masanori Murakami, Sawamura had a chance to pitch in the majors when he toured the U.S. with a Japanese team that year but decided against it, telling one magazine, "My problem is I hate America and I cannot make myself like Americans." Sawamura stayed in Japan where he won 33 games one season. He was killed during World War II when a torpedo sank his ship.

[Glengoyne]

Any body else put up good numbers in international Tripple A?

[John Galt]

Matsui is a below average OF who plays ok defense. Ichiro is a good (and sometimes great) OF who plays gold glove defense. And I'm a Yankee fan.

[CentralMassHokie]

Matsui is a below average OF who plays ok defense

I think rating Matsui's defense as "OK" is overrating him. Matsui's a poor defensive outfielder (little range, an average inaccurate arm, poor fundamentals) with moderate speed, and a bat that would be good for a CF, but is below average for a corner OF. He's also rather slow. A lot of his value comes from his marginally above average power and ability to take a walk now and again.

Ichiro, who I am not a large fan of, has good to great range in RF. He's got a strong accurate arm. Offensively, he's good, but below average for a corner OF. Ichiro loses some of his lustre when you realize he has no power and never takes a walk. His speed and contact hitting have allowed him to compensate for that, but as seen at the tail end of the past 2 seasons, his legs can only carry him so far. His lack of plate discipline is likely to cause his career to burn out faster than most would expect.

Still, today, I take Ichiro, no questions asked. I think Matsui-like players are a dime a dozen.

[QuikSand]

Welcome to the board, Fujiko.

I think Ichiro possesses such a rich set of skills that there aren't too many players I'd take ahead of him, period. An "impact" leadoff hitter has tremendous value in baseball, and he's the single guy I'd want atop my lineup in baseball today.

I like Matsui as a player, and he is certainly valuable. But I think his skills are more replaceable in the baseball universe.

So Ichiro, pretty easily.

[alterra]

Matsui is by far the best Yankee defensive outfielder.

[Senator]

I agree with our computer generated FOFC - bot.

[John Galt]

Originally posted by alterra
Matsui is by far the best Yankee defensive outfielder.

Huh? Williams has certainly faded, but is still an adequate CF. Garcia, Rivera, and Dellucci are all decent at RF (with varying strengths and weaknesses). Even if Matsui is the best defensive Yankee OF (a questionable proposition), it is certainly not "by far."

[astralhaze]

Player Team Bat Field Pitch Sum WS POS POSRANK
I Suzuki SEA 18.89 4.16 0.00 23.05 23 OF 5
H Matsui NYY 16.40 2.49 0.00 18.89 19 OF 13


I'll take Ichiro

[Glengoyne]

Originally posted by John Galt
Huh? Williams has certainly faded, but is still an adequate CF. Garcia, Rivera, and Dellucci are all decent at RF (with varying strengths and weaknesses). Even if Matsui is the best defensive Yankee OF (a questionable proposition), it is certainly not "by far."


I think you are looking at Williams through Rose colored glasses. I think he is barely passable as a fielder on a Yankee caliber team.

In response to the original question, I would say Matsui. I don't know if he is the best OF the Yankees have, as I agree with you that each of the other three you mentioned are pretty decent fielders.

[Daimyo]

Ichiro.

[John Galt]

Originally posted by Glengoyne
I think you are looking at Williams through Rose colored glasses. I think he is barely passable as a fielder on a Yankee caliber team.

In response to the original question, I would say Matsui. I don't know if he is the best OF the Yankees have, as I agree with you that each of the other three you mentioned are pretty decent fielders.

I don't think it is rose colored to say he has "certainly faded." I'm pretty realistic that his gold glove days are passed and this is probably his last year at CF, but he was "passable" which is all that I was arguing.

As for your choice of Matsui, his OPS was .788 - the same as Ichiro (exactly). Ichiro plays in a pitcher's park, steals a ton of bases (and I normally think SB's aren't valuable), and plays superb defense. I just don't know why anyone would want Matsui - a power hitter with no power. Embarrasinly, Ichiro has a higher SLG than Matsui in a pitcher's park.

[astralhaze]

Well, Matsui was 13'th in AL OF's in Win Shares so he must be doing something right.

[Glengoyne]

Well, I must admit, I like Ichiro as well. A month ago I wouldn't have given Matsui a second thought in response to this question. After watching him in the post season however, I am left with this intangible impression that he is "Clutch", and want to give him the nod.

[sterlingice]

Originally posted by astralhaze

Player Team Bat Field Pitch Sum WS POS POSRANK
I Suzuki SEA 18.89 4.16 0.00 23.05 23 OF 5
H Matsui NYY 16.40 2.49 0.00 18.89 19 OF 13


I'll take Ichiro

Wow! I didn't realize their win shares were that close. Also, I didn't realize end of year win shares were posted yet. *heads over to Baseball Prospectus*

SI

[HornedFrog Purple]

I would take Ichiro. His style of play as a leadoff hitter is slowly being outlawed by players. Everyone wants to be a power hitter now even if they have no power. Ichiro is special, mainly because I think he was not brought up in a USA minor league system.

[John Galt]

Matsui's WS are in large part to the fact that he didn't get hurt, didn't get benched, was put in a nice part of a great lineup even though his performance didn't justify it, and played for the Yankees. WS do remove a lot of team bias, but not all especially given that Matsui often batted between and around Giambi, Posada, Mondesi (when he was really hot at the beginning of the year), and Williams. That makes life a little easier and inflates his value.

[astralhaze]

Originally posted by sterlingice
Wow! I didn't realize their win shares were that close. Also, I didn't realize end of year win shares were posted yet. *heads over to Baseball Prospectus*

SI

I don't know about BP, but you can get them here (http://www.baseballgraphs.com/winshares/) during the season. They are updated every day.

[korme]

Originally posted by Senator
I prefer these guys:


Masaichi Kaneda: Probably the greatest pitcher in Japanese history, Kaneda won 400 games and struck out 4,490 batters in his career despite pitching for the perennially bad Swallows. He lost 23 games by 1-0 scores.


Sadaharu Oh: Said to have the power of Hank Aaron and the eye of Ted Williams, Oh hit a record 868 home runs during his career. The left-handed hitting Oh had a distinctive stance, lifting his right leg as if he were a dog at a fire hydrant, but the style worked for him. He hit between 40-55 home runs every year but one from 1962-1976, and that in a 130-game season. Oh honed his stroke by swinging a sword at a piece of paper suspended from the ceiling by a string. He went on to manage after he retired as a player.


Eiji Sawamura: The right-hander nearly beat a traveling all-star team in 1935, consecutively striking out four future Hall-of-Famers Charlie Gehringer, Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig and Jimmie Foxx. Three decades before Masanori Murakami, Sawamura had a chance to pitch in the majors when he toured the U.S. with a Japanese team that year but decided against it, telling one magazine, "My problem is I hate America and I cannot make myself like Americans." Sawamura stayed in Japan where he won 33 games one season. He was killed during World War II when a torpedo sank his ship.

Sen, you aren't the only one to have an impressive knowledge of the NPB stars. The JBL is based on this and our awards are named after them (Oh-->, Swamura-->Cy Young, Nomo-->Rookie, etc). Our logo is in fact the unique swing of Sada Oh. What he could have done in the majors we will never know.

Good writeup.

[daedalus]

What is "win share"? I think, as of right now, Ichiro's production (offensively and defensively) is superior. The only thing is I think there's a chance Matsui will improve his numbers as he gets more familiar with the major next year, where I think we've seen pretty much what Ichiro can do. It might be a closer comparison, then.

[Marmel]

I think Takashi Hiroshi (http://www.jbl.ootp-leagues.com/jbl_exports/p236.html) is the greatest Japanese player of all time. Just scroll down that page and look at his stats!

175-45 record as a starter
1.69 career ERA
7 No Hitters and 2 Perfect Games

[astralhaze]

Originally posted by daedalus
What is "win share"? I think, as of right now, Ichiro's production (offensively and defensively) is superior. The only thing is I think there's a chance Matsui will improve his numbers as he gets more familiar with the major next year, where I think we've seen pretty much what Ichiro can do. It might be a closer comparison, then.

Link (http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/neyer_rob/42798.html)

"For the rest of you, Win Shares are thirds of a win created. If, for example, the Expos win 100 games this season, there will be 300 Win Shares to be spread around among the players. Essentially, what Bill James has done is invent a method to distribute those Win Shares (and, by extension, those 100 wins)."

[MikeVic]

Wow. Nice to read about these Japanese stars in Japan.. anyone got any more info.?

[daedalus]

Thanks, astral. :)

[dawgfan]

Originally posted by daedalus
I think, as of right now, Ichiro's production (offensively and defensively) is superior. The only thing is I think there's a chance Matsui will improve his numbers as he gets more familiar with the major next year, where I think we've seen pretty much what Ichiro can do. It might be a closer comparison, then.

One of the intriguing things about Ichiro is that I don't think we've seen all he can do. If you've ever watched him in BP, he's actually got tremendous power for a little guy. I know, I know, it's just BP, but all the guys on the Mariners are convinced he could crank 30+ homers in a season if he tried. The question is how much that would impact his batting average. I doubt we'll see him change his approach anytime soon, as it's been successful for him, but I wonder if in another 7+ years or so when his speed begins to fade if he'll start swinging for the fences.

[John Galt]

Originally posted by dawgfan
One of the intriguing things about Ichiro is that I don't think we've seen all he can do. If you've ever watched him in BP, he's actually got tremendous power for a little guy. I know, I know, it's just BP, but all the guys on the Mariners are convinced he could crank 30+ homers in a season if he tried. The question is how much that would impact his batting average. I doubt we'll see him change his approach anytime soon, as it's been successful for him, but I wonder if in another 7+ years or so when his speed begins to fade if he'll start swinging for the fences.

I'm always suspect of reports like that. It's like Chucky Daly and everyone of Rodman's teammates used to say how he could shoot the lights out during practice - he just didn't do it during games. Yeah right. Ichiro is a good player, but look at his build and tell me you think he has 30+ homer power.

[oykib]

Ichiro does have good power. He hit nineteen homeruns in his best season in Japan. Green Stadium, where he played, is not particularly a homerun park.

I think Matsui, having seen him play, has altered his swing to become Paul O'Neill. I'd rather he went back to his old swing with the giant hole in it. He'd only bat .270. But I'd rather have that than .290 if I got the forty homers that he's capable of.

I think the post-season has shown us what he's capable power-wise. There have been a number of situations that he's cheated on a particular pitch. When he does, he uses his old swing. That's what's produced all the doubles and homers these playoffs.

Perhaps, having done a good job this season, he'll go back to his old hitting style. Maybe thaving the pressure off a little will allow him to do that.

As for Ichiro. I think that he has had a better major-league carrer by far. But I'd take Matsui going forward. I don't think Ichiro will get any better. I think is likely Matsui will get better, and possible that he'll get much better.

[oykib]

By the way, Shigeo Nagashima is the the most loved and respected Japanese ballplayer of all-time. By far.

That may have something to do with the fact that he was the Derek Jeter of the great Yomiuri Giants teams of his era in addition to being an all-time great.

Oh may suffer from the fact that he is really Taiwanese, rather than pure Japanese. It's an unsaid fact, that everyone knows, that the reason he isn't the Giants' manager is his heritage. Instead he is the manager of the Daiei Hawks.

The Giants' manager who replaced Nagashima, Tatsunori Hara, stepped down after two seasons after finishing fifth in the Central League and, even worse, losing the pennant to the Hanshin Tigers, the Chicago Cubs of the CL and Yomiuri's biggest rival.

Perhaps, being in the straights that they are, the Giants may decide to offer Oh the job anyway.

Personally, I am not a big fan of Oh. I support the Kintetsu Osaka Buffaloes, whomTuffy Rhodes plays for, in the Pacific League. But mainly, I don't think the shennanigans that he's been involved in to protect his single-season home run record are very sportsmanlike.

For those who don't know, in the prior two seasons his record has been tied twice by players in the Pacific league. In Japanese baseball, there are only six teams per league and they play a 140 game schedule. There is no interleague play. So you play each team 28 times. If the opposing manager wants to pitch around you, he can pretty effectively cut you out of two or three home runs at least.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Everybody except Rey Ordoñez has 30+ home run power these days. :p

[TroyF]

Originally posted by John Galt
I'm always suspect of reports like that. It's like Chucky Daly and everyone of Rodman's teammates used to say how he could shoot the lights out during practice - he just didn't do it during games. Yeah right. Ichiro is a good player, but look at his build and tell me you think he has 30+ homer power.

The interesting thing is that in college (albeit a small college) Rodman really could shoot lights out. He was a scoring machine in college.

Not saying that would have ever translated into the NBA, but I think had he wanted to have had one, he could have had a very solid all around game instead of just being a rebound guy. Another side note: He's one of the smartest NBA players I've ever seen.

On the topic at hand. . . Ichiro, and it isn't close.

TroyF

[tucker342]

Easily Ichiro.

[dawgfan]

Originally posted by Ronnie Dobbs2
Quick on-topic question.

Why do we refer to "Ichiro Suzuki" as Ichiro and "Hideki Matsui" as Matsui? Which is the surname? And why isn't it consistent?

Just something I've wondered.

The explanation I've heard is since Suzuki is such a common surname in Japan, and Ichiro became so famous, he elected to have his first name placed on his jersey. He just continued that when he joined the M's.

[dawgfan]

Originally posted by John Galt
I'm always suspect of reports like that. It's like Chucky Daly and everyone of Rodman's teammates used to say how he could shoot the lights out during practice - he just didn't do it during games. Yeah right. Ichiro is a good player, but look at his build and tell me you think he has 30+ homer power.

I've seen him in BP, and he can hit the windows of the Hit It Here Cafe in Safeco Field. If you know Safeco, you know that's a good shot - 450+ feet.

You don't have to be a monster to hit with power - you need a quick bat, and strong wrists are more important than brute strength. Hank Aaron was not a huge man, but he had very strong wrists and a quick bat.

I think Ichiro could hit with power if he so desired, but he's been so successful with his slap and run style that I'm sure he's reluctant to mess with a good thing. No doubt by hitting for more power he'd strike out more and hit for a lower average; who knows if he'd hit enough dingers to make up for the lost singles.

[JeeberD]

Originally posted by TroyF
The interesting thing is that in college (albeit a small college) Rodman really could shoot lights out. He was a scoring machine in college.

Not saying that would have ever translated into the NBA, but I think had he wanted to have had one, he could have had a very solid all around game instead of just being a rebound guy. Another side note: He's one of the smartest NBA players I've ever seen.


Rodman also had some decent scoring numbers early in his career compared to the rest of his career. In 87-88, his second season) he scored 11.6ppg with a 56.1FG%, the next season 9.0ppg with a 59.5FG%, and the season after that he scored 8.8ppg with a 58.1FG%. His scoring remained fairly consistanct until he was traded to San Anonio, but his FG% went into a constant state of flux in his fifth season, when coincidently enough, his rebounding numbers began to go through the roof...

Like Troy stated, I'm sure that if he had concentrated on more than just his rebounding numbers he would have had much better all around stats...

Dennis Rodman career stats (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/dennis_rodman/index.html?nav=page)

[daedalus]

Early in his career, he was also a really good defenders (he was one of the few people I saw who could legitimately shut down Magic without the bullshit). Later on, it was all reputations and a lot of thugging.