Beautiful use of a Safety

[Bonegavel]

That was brilliant. Good call by the NE staff. Be nice to see this when digging through the game logs of FOF.

[TroyF]

Denver, the anti-KC.

I swear, this team just finds a way to lose football games. Between getting screwed on bad calls and making horrible decisions at the end of a game, they've blown 3 football games they should have won this year.

Tonight? Trevor Pryce is held on three consecutive plays, including the screen and the TD pass to win the game. Deltha O'Neal decides to not bother catching the free kick, Shanahan is a dickhead with the play calling, Lepsis makes a false start, and O'Neal makes a wonderful coverage error to lose the game.

I've never been more disgusted with this team.

TroyF

[TLK]

I can not believe the ending of that game. Oh well, two fantasy leagues.... two losses this week....

[FrogMan]

TroyF, don't be so bitter, but how many penalties did the Pats end up having? You sure they were all good calls? That one on Matt Light was atrocious, he was induced...

Anyway, great win for the Pats, couldn't be happier! :)

FM

[sabotai]

Troy,

Haha, welcome to my world! :)

[Sublime]

WOO HOO Pats!!! 7-2....

[TroyF]

Originally posted by FrogMan
TroyF, don't be so bitter, but how many penalties did the Pats end up having? You sure they were all good calls? That one on Matt Light was atrocious, he was induced...

Anyway, great win for the Pats, couldn't be happier! :)

FM

The call on Light was horrific as well. The non holding calls had a direct impact on the game.

I don't want this to turn into a ref debate. Denver lost the game. It's just frustrating to watch the combination of idiotic plays and bad officiating cost them games.

TroyF

[TroyF]

Originally posted by Ronnie Dobbs2
So, this seems like a good place to ask:

Where does the term "safety" come from? Is it derived from how it was used tonight, as in it's more safe to give the 2 than risk the blocked punt? Doubt it, but it does make sense.

I don't know. I looked it up, but the earliest origin I can find has college football increasing the points awarded for a safety from 1 point to 2. That occured in 1884.

TroyF

[Glengoyne]

Originally posted by Ronnie Dobbs2
So, this seems like a good place to ask:

Where does the term "safety" come from? Is it derived from how it was used tonight, as in it's more safe to give the 2 than risk the blocked punt? Doubt it, but it does make sense.

Boy that is a great question.

As Madden and Michaels were talking about getting to the 5 to make sure the punter had room, I started thinking about the ramifications of a safety. I said to my wife "You know, I think they should take the safety." As I was explaining the sacrifice of points for field position to her, Michaels brought it up, and then they snapped the ball. It was one of those rare moments when I thought to myself "wow, that guy REALLY put two and two together there, and made a really tough call". I mean it is a perfect call now, with 20/20 hindsight. If things hadn't gone their way, folks would have been questioning the call. I mean this the kind of thing Jim Fossel would never do.

[BishopMVP]

There were other missed holding calls. On one of the punt returns a Patriot broke through and was tackled from behind-no call. Also the spot on the punt downed at the 1 was terrible, it was clearly touched at about the 4.

Either way, ugly game by the Pats and I'm just glad they won.

[alterra]

Goddam but I love Tom Brady.

[Francis_Cole]

great call... they did the same a few years ago I think

[cthomer5000]

The safety could not have worked out any better. You have the Broncos completely mishandle the free kick, go 3 and out (ending with a pass), and then all kinds of penalties to let you waltz down the field for the game winning score.

Since he bailed on my Jets I've been a skeptic, but tonight was the game that convinced me of Bellichek's above-average coaching ability. The man is among the best in the league.

[cthomer5000]

Originally posted by BishopMVP
There were other missed holding calls. On one of the punt returns a Patriot broke through and was tackled from behind-no call.

Good, I wasn't the only one who saw that. It was on the last punt by the Broncos. The guy had a clear shot at a block, and just got tackled by the upback. A surprising no-call.

[Butter]

Originally posted by cthomer5000
Since he bailed on my Jets I've been a skeptic, but tonight was the game that convinced me of Bellichek's above-average coaching ability. The man is among the best in the league.

I was thinking that too after seeing the safety. Sure, if Denver runs out the clock they still win, but how much field position did that gain them? 30-50 yards worth? I was watching the game with the sound off (and playing XBox at the same time), and the thought never even crossed my mind.

I was also considering the call to go for the FG and the win in the Super Bowl a couple of years back. As an Ohio sports fan, I never did like Belichick much as the Browns coach, but he is proving himself more than worthy to be named among the elite.

[TroyF]

Originally posted by Butter_of_69
I was thinking that too after seeing the safety. Sure, if Denver runs out the clock they still win, but how much field position did that gain them? 30-50 yards worth? I was watching the game with the sound off (and playing XBox at the same time), and the thought never even crossed my mind.

I was also considering the call to go for the FG and the win in the Super Bowl a couple of years back. As an Ohio sports fan, I never did like Belichick much as the Browns coach, but he is proving himself more than worthy to be named among the elite.

OK, I'm getting sick of seeing this. The call was a great call, but it wasn't some brilliant stroke of genius. The announcers thought about calling it before the play happened. This is the senial John Madden we are talking about here. I thought the same thing. Taking the safety was the smartest thing to do there. They'd had a punt return go for a TD on them earlier in the quarter.

As for the field position gain, that fell to ONE MAN. Deltha O'Neal MUST catch that punt. He has to do it. He catches it and Denver is between the 40 and 50 yard line. That puts the Patriots deep in their own territory even if they force the punt.

The call was a good call. Not the call of the year, not the gutsiest call ever. It was just good football sense.

Bill deserves the coach of the year award right now. (you can make an arguement for Parcells) He's did an incredible job all year and deserves all the accolades he can get. That doesn't mean every decision he makes is so brilliant nobody else would have thought of it or did it.

TroyF

[Butter]

Hey, no need to be an ass just because your team lost, man. Nobody said he was the best coach of all time, but he is one of the best in the league right now.

[TroyF]

Originally posted by Butter_of_69
Hey, no need to be an ass just because your team lost, man. Nobody said he was the best coach of all time, but he is one of the best in the league right now.

I'm not being an ass. I said it was a good call. It just wasn't the greatest call in the history of the game like some people are making it out to be. John Clayton says it was the call of the year. It wasn't. It was a good call that a good coach makes.

If anything, I'm more pissed off about the fact I think it's actually taking away from him. He did a wonderful coaching job THE ENTIRE GAME.

People making this call out to be better than what it was are missing the point. I'd say 75% of the coaches in the league make the same call if they are in that situation. (punt returned for a TD earlier in the game, down one, all time outs left) Maybe more.

75% of the coaches in the league DO NOT go 7-2 with this Patriot team.

TroyF

[Butter]

I said it was a good call. You quote me and say "I'm sick of seeing this... it was a good call, but not a genius call!!!"

I ask you where did I say anything but it's a very good call and Belichick is a good coach?

[cthomer5000]

Originally posted by Butter_of_69
I said it was a good call. You quote me and say "I'm sick of seeing this... it was a good call, but not a genius call!!!"

I ask you where did I say anything but it's a very good call and Belichick is a good coach?

And I also said "tonight's game" convinced me. I also believe Troy is overreacting here. I guess Danny Kannell can make anyone cranky.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Belichick is a a disciple of Big Bill. He has been involved in coaching in the NFL I think over half his life. I would question nothing he does because he has most likely seen it before. I do wonder if he was trailing by 2 points instead of 1, what he would have done... oh to have a time machine.

[cthomer5000]

Originally posted by HornedFrog Purple
Belichick is a a disciple of Big Bill. He has been involved in coaching in the NFL I think over half his life. I would question nothing he does because he has most likely seen it before. I do wonder if he was trailing by 2 points instead of 1, what he would have done... oh to have a time machine.

I would say no, but I also think he would have played the whole series differently. Once I saw them take the safety, I decided that Bellicheck had most likely called nothing but passes for a specific reason: if they didn't move the ball, they'd kill very little time before taking the safety and kicking off.

If they were down by 2, he probably would have made a greater effort to get off the 1 yard line.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Well sure I agree what I mean is lets suppose he calls different plays, they don't execute and still gets to the same exact spot for 4th down. Does he punt getting say 45-50 yards of field position on a good punt or does he decide to trail by 4 and take the free kick?

Remember he still has to get it outside the 5 yard line anyways if the fear of a block is in his mind.

That is why I wouldn't want to be a head coach.

By the way, the snap was golden hitting the upright heh.

[Eilim]

When that ball bounced back into the field from the upright I almost went into a panic. I immediately starting running back into my memory for any similar situations or past references to "field of play", etc, that I might have come across in my following of football, worried that some obscure rule somewhere made that a live ball.

I think one of the announcers brought it up, but why didn't they just snap it to the punter and have him step back out of the endzone?

[RPI-Fan]

It's harder to hit the punter than it is to put it away from him.

If you snap it low to the punter, and the ball takes a funny bounce, then what??

Snapping it through the endzone avoids any possible problems.

[RPI-Fan]

Well sure I agree what I mean is lets suppose he calls different plays, they don't execute and still gets to the same exact spot for 4th down. Does he punt getting say 45-50 yards of field position on a good punt or does he decide to trail by 4 and take the free kick?

Well, they would have a very good shot at recovering (~50%) an onside kick off of a free kick. So he would still have that in the back of his mind. But I still think they'd kick it away, if down by four. You put a lot more pressure on your offense when they HAVE to get a TD.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Yeah but you had to know someone in the ABC truck was starting to dig around in a rulebook, they already had the crazy Simeon Rice penalty and some other things this year heh.

[Eilim]

Ok, that makes sense. Where I had never seen that situation before (bouncing a snap off the upright..) and had a near panic attack wondering if it was a dead ball or not I just couldn't figure out why the hell they didn't just snap it to him. At the time I was dead sure the Patrtiots coaching staff just enjoys giving me ulcers. :rolleyes:

[RPI-Fan]

Yea', it was awkward. But I'd seen passes go off goalposts that were called dead, so I pretty much assumed that would be the case here. I'm sure Bellicheck was 100% sure of the rule, too. (Or if not, he had someone who was tell him that) Otherwise he would have just snapped it to the punter.

[mckerney]

Originally posted by Eilim
Ok, that makes sense. Where I had never seen that situation before (bouncing a snap off the upright..) and had a near panic attack wondering if it was a dead ball or not I just couldn't figure out why the hell they didn't just snap it to him. At the time I was dead sure the Patrtiots coaching staff just enjoys giving me ulcers. :rolleyes:

I remember a play that was a similar situation of 'is the upright in play' from a few years ago. In the Metrodome the team playing against the Vikes tried a long field goal at the end of the half. The Vikes sent Robert Tate back to return it in case it was short, and Tate caught the ball off the crossbar and ran it the length of the field into the endzone, before finding out that the ref had called it a dead ball.

[FrogMan]

Originally posted by Eilim
Ok, that makes sense. Where I had never seen that situation before (bouncing a snap off the upright..) and had a near panic attack wondering if it was a dead ball or not I just couldn't figure out why the hell they didn't just snap it to him. At the time I was dead sure the Patrtiots coaching staff just enjoys giving me ulcers. :rolleyes:

And that near panic attack got a bit stronger with seeing Ken Walters, the punter, waving his arms trying to convince himself that the ball wasn't in play... :)

FM

[SunDancer]

What happen with the safety, I missed it.

[Glengoyne]

I used to be in the Belichick will only find success hanging on Parcel's coat tails camp. The superbowl year, started me down the road of thinking he was more than servicable as a coach. Last year, eventhough they didn't make the playoffs, I continued to warm to him. This year has been great. I don't think he would or should get coach of the Year over Parcells, but he is certainly making his mark as a top coach in the league.

I started this thread to bash Shanahan, but only ended up praising Belichick. Am I the only one that thinks Shanahan is completely overrated? I mean he rode Terrel Davis to the promised land, didn't he? When Shanahan was in San Francisco, everyone lauded praise on him for his offensive genius. I was sitting there watching Jerry Rice catch about 3 balls a season over his shoulder, thinking about what Young and Rice could have been doing if Shanahan were somewhere else.


edit: I intended to segue into the Shanahan bashing by pointing out that he was thoroughly out coached last night. Portis had to have been averaging around 5 yards a carry in the fourth quarter, but when they needed to get first downs and run the clock they didn't cash in with Portis.

[FrogMan]

Originally posted by SunDancer
What happen with the safety, I missed it.

With a little over 3 minutes to go, down by 1, and pinned on their 1 yard line, the Pats tried 3 quick passes, all incomplete. 4th and 10 on the 1, a little less than 3 minutes to go, 3 time outs left, instead of trying to punt from the one (punter only 9 yards behind the snapper) the center snapped the ball over the punter's head, right on the crossbar for a safety.

Now down by 3 with still their three T/O, they free kicked over Deltha O'Neil's head and he recovers it at Denver's 15, they go 3 and out and punt. Pats used 2 T/O there. Pats take it over and drive it down for a touchdown and the win...

FM

[Passacaglia]

Wait, a safety was made two points in 1884? Wasn't that before a touchdown was increased from one point?

[cthomer5000]

Originally posted by FrogMan
With a little over 3 minutes to go, down by 1, and pinned on their 1 yard line, the Pats tried 3 quick passes, all incomplete. 4th and 10 on the 1, a little less than 3 minutes to go, 3 time outs left, instead of trying to punt from the one (punter only 9 yards behind the snapper) the center snapped the ball over the punter's head, right on the crossbar for a safety.


Technically, it hit the "upright" (side poles) not the "crossbar" (bottom), but that's not really the point. Things got a tad confusing because the ball hit the post directly and stayed in bounds, falling into the middle of the endzone. The punter didn't even seem to care, and just casually waved his hands as if to say the play was over. For a second, I admit I didn't know what the rule was.

Apparently the rule is common sense based, since the ball obviously would have gone out of bounds without the bar in its way.

[FrogMan]

Originally posted by cthomer5000
Technically, it hit the "upright" (side poles) not the "crossbar" (bottom), but that's not really the point.

Yeah, sorry, brain fart on my end. The French part of my brain took over for a second here ;)

FM

[TroyF]

Originally posted by Glengoyne
I used to be in the Belichick will only find success hanging on Parcel's coat tails camp. The superbowl year, started me down the road of thinking he was more than servicable as a coach. Last year, eventhough they didn't make the playoffs, I continued to warm to him. This year has been great. I don't think he would or should get coach of the Year over Parcells, but he is certainly making his mark as a top coach in the league.

I started this thread to bash Shanahan, but only ended up praising Belichick. Am I the only one that thinks Shanahan is completely overrated? I mean he rode Terrel Davis to the promised land, didn't he? When Shanahan was in San Francisco, everyone lauded praise on him for his offensive genius. I was sitting there watching Jerry Rice catch about 3 balls a season over his shoulder, thinking about what Young and Rice could have been doing if Shanahan were somewhere else.


edit: I intended to segue into the Shanahan bashing by pointing out that he was thoroughly out coached last night. Portis had to have been averaging around 5 yards a carry in the fourth quarter, but when they needed to get first downs and run the clock they didn't cash in with Portis.

I think Shanny is very overrated as a head coach. . . BUT he gave us Bronco fans 2 Super Bowl titles. That carries a lot of weight. (if you don't think so, see how many losing seasons in a row Bellichek would have to have to be fired in NE)

His offense is great IF all the parts are in place. Unlike some coaches, when he has a great offense in place, he doesn't screw it up with screwball calls. He stays balanced and keeps the chains moving. He's a mixed bag when it comes to making adjustments on the fly.

The problem comes when one of the pieces isn't in place. The Broncos are either REALLY good on offense or REALLY bad. There is rarely a game where they are just average. He tends to get too conservative when he has a chance to step on the throat of a team early in the fourth. (on 4th and 3 at the 32 the Broncos should have went for it last night. . . both times)

His late game management with a lead is about as bad as any coach in the league. His late game management when trailing in a close game is about as good as anyone in the league.

His scripted plays are the best in the game. I don't think anyone scripts those first 15 better than Shanahan.

The other thing I don't like about him is the lack of "guts" in off season moves. He does what is expected almost every time. This years draft was a perfect example. This team needs a "playmaker" on defense. Wilson, Pryce and the CB's are solid, but they don't force enough turnovers. There isn't enough game changing plays. We haven't had a "franchise" QB here sinse Elway left. Denver knew there was nothing there with the late 1rst round pick this year. Instead of drafting a tackle, they should have packaged a few picks and went for the Vikings pick.

We didn't need Daryl Gardener this year. The DT's were already decent. We should have saved that money and instead blew it on a slightly above average player.

All in all, I'm not a huge Shanahan fan. I'm not a Bill B. fan either when there is talent there. I think Billick and Belichick both coach better when things appear to be stacked against them. They do a good job with smoke and mirrors.

Last years Pats team was more talented than either the Super Bowl team or this years version. No way they should have ended up out of the playoffs.

So. . . to finalize: I'll take Shanny if there is a ton of talent. I'll take Belichick if I have to win with smoke and mirrors. I'll take Vermeil if I don't mind waiting three years. I'll take Gruden if I have a team that needs an emotional leader. I'll take Dan Reeves or Marty Schottenheimer if someone holds a gun to my head and threatens my life.

TroyF

[Kodos]

I remember when Billick was tagged as an offensive guru years back. I hope that the years of offensive ineptness in Baltimore have erased that, even if Jamal Lewis is having a good year as a running back. Billick the offensive genuis didn't seem to know what he had with Priest Holmes.

[BishopMVP]

Originally posted by TroyF
Last years Pats team was more talented than either the Super Bowl team or this years version.

:confused:

I agree with most of what you said, but I think you're mistaken here.

Between 2001 and 2002, they added Jimmy Hitchcock (released 2/3 the way through the season), Donald Hayes (since released), Deion Branch (hit the wall 5 games in) and Daniel Graham (contributed nothing last year) and lost Terry Glenn (more talented a receiver than any on the team) and Drew Bledsoe (not significant since he wasn't starting).

Then between last year and this year, ignoring the Colvin and Washington acquisitions because they haven't played much, they replaced Lawyer Milloy and Tebucky Jones with Rodney Harrison and Eugene Wilson (ignoring salary-cap benefits, a wash IMO) and added contributors Ty Warren, Dan Koppen, Dan Klecko, Bethel Johnson and Asante Samuel.

Basically, I agree they should have made the playoffs last year, but I think the Super Bowl and last year were basically the same team, with this years version having more depth.

[HornedFrog Purple]

What is funny is I heard a snippet just a few minutes ago and Belichick said he faced a similar situation a couple of years ago and it backfired when the other team (think he said the Broncos)took the freekick back to the house.

That is the way the NFL is... one day you're a guru then the next you are drawn and quartered unless your name is offensive coordinator Bruce Coslet in which case you are shredded and fed to hungry rats to start with.

[TroyF]

Originally posted by HornedFrog Purple
What is funny is I heard a snippet just a few minutes ago and Belichick said he faced a similar situation a couple of years ago and it backfired when the other team (think he said the Broncos)took the freekick back to the house.

That is the way the NFL is... one day you're a guru then the next you are drawn and quartered unless your name is offensive coordinator Bruce Coslet in which case you are shredded and fed to hungry rats to start with.

Yep, I may have came off too strong, but I just don't think it was a brilliant decision by any means. It was a fairly easy one. The thing that made it great was Deltha O'Neal making the cardinal rule mistake. He had to catch that free kick. I'm not talking about athletic ability here, it was a complete and total mental breakdown. Something that never should have happened and something Belichick could have never imagined in his best case scenario.

If O'Neal played for Parcells, he'd be cut this week, salary cap be damned. (note: unless you didn't know, Bill HATES punt returners that do not catch the ball outside of the ten yard line. If you can't do that, not only will you not be a punt returner on the team, you probably won't be on the team)

TroyF

[gstelmack]

You guys are missing the best part of this game:

In my Yahoo Fantasy League, I was down 62 points heading into that game: I was around 32, my opponent around 94. My highest score all season was last week at 80-something points. Before going further, I should point out that my opponent has the most points in the league, but is mired at 4-5 because he always hits the hot team.

My team consists solely of Pats, Panthers, and Bucs, since I figured I'd pick a team consisting of players I could actually root for. Being a Pats fan by birth and Panthers/Bucs by moves, I still had Brady, Faulk, Branch, Graham, Vinatieri, Bruschi, and Poole left to play.

Final scores:

Brady - 20.95
Branch - 12.00
Faulk - 3.66
Graham - 7.95
Vinatieri - 14.00 (2 long FGs for the extra points)
Bruschi - 1.50
Poole - 2.00

I ended up winning by .04 points thanks to the Pats last night...

[FrogMan]

Originally posted by gstelmack
I ended up winning by .04 points thanks to the Pats last night...

BY 0.04!!! :eek: ouch!

FM

[WussGawd]

Originally posted by Glengoyne
Boy that is a great question.

As Madden and Michaels were talking about getting to the 5 to make sure the punter had room, I started thinking about the ramifications of a safety. I said to my wife "You know, I think they should take the safety." As I was explaining the sacrifice of points for field position to her, Michaels brought it up, and then they snapped the ball. It was one of those rare moments when I thought to myself "wow, that guy REALLY put two and two together there, and made a really tough call". I mean it is a perfect call now, with 20/20 hindsight. If things hadn't gone their way, folks would have been questioning the call. I mean this the kind of thing Jim Fossel would never do.

Last night's game is not the first time I've seen a coach in a similar situation make this call, though it's been a few years. I seem to recall a similar move in a playoff game back in the 80's, but can't remember the teams.

OTOH, I'm not sure it's nearly the "gutsy call" that the media is making it out to be. I file it more in the "no brainer" category. Really, other than second guessing by stupid print journalists, and even stupider Sports Talk morning hosts, what is the difference between losing by 1 vs. losing by 3?

It would have been even more of a no-brainer if Elam had been there to convert the short field into a 50 yard FG or thereabouts (that is, if New England got the kick off in the first place).

[Glengoyne]

I would have to say that Tough call is maybe a bit much, but it certainly was a very good decision, made in difficult circumstances. I know that is what coaches are paid to do, but they so often overlook options that many of us regard as obvious. I mean when they snapped the ball over the punter's head, I actually cheered.

[TroyF]

I love Bill Simmons. Whenever It seems like I fly off the deep end for a few moments, he follows me down the same path. A couple of months ago it was McNair. Now it's the safety call:

I'm afraid to mention anything about the Pats. Terrified, even. But a few things surprised me about Belichick's safety call in Denver. For one thing, with three minutes to play, it was the only move -- you give up the deuce, gain 30 yards of kicking position, and you still need your field goal. So why did I realize this immediately, and yet Madden never mentioned it once, and Michaels brought up the possibility just as they were about to snap the ball? Really? They're paid to do this, and I'm sitting on my sofa next to the Dooze -- who was chewing her paw at the time -- and the word "safety" entered my mind 30 seconds before them? How does this make sense?

(Wait... don't answer that.)

Second, why is everyone treating this "safety" decision like Belichick unveiled a new formula for nuclear fusion? It was his only move! You had to do it! Have we really reached the point where any intelligent, thoughful coaching decision has to be celebrated? Are things THAT bad?

(Wait... don't answer that.)

And third, in that same spot, given the same options, Grady Little would have punted out of his own end zone. Let there be no doubt. No, I'm not still bitter or anything.

Good job Bill. :)

TroyF

[Travis]

I'd be curious to see the reaction to a lot of you watching a CFL game, where safeties and single points are conceded on a more regular basis, ditto for running back missed field goals.

We must have some absolutely brilliant tacticians up here ;)