Computer Science Industry?

[MikeVic]

Anyone know what the status is of the industry? I'm asking because I signed up for a Co-op program in my University, and got accepted (I'm in 3rd year Computer Science right now). However, we didn't get enough positions offered that wanted co-op students. In the past, it seems like around 45-50 student got hired in their first work term... but now, we MIGHT get 35-40, and that's not enough for everyone accepted into Co-op to get hired.

Is this how the industry currently is? Or is the real-life industry better? Worse?

Thanks!

[wbonnell]

It has been severely depressed overly the last 2 years especially in high-tech cities such as Austin (where I live). However, I understand it is starting to show signs of life again. Unfortunately, with off-shore outsourcing and cautious staffing models, the trend seems to be to hire programmers as contractors. While this isn't necessarily bad if you're young and flexible, it is troubling for the industry at large. It implies that the the programmer is a commodity.

As for salaries, well, they've come way down. 3 years ago, a computer science student fresh out of a top-tier school (such as UT) could earn as much as 70-80k/year to start. That's probably more in line with what an experienced programmer is making today (although those fortunate enough to stay with the same company are probably pushing close to 100k). I'd say you'd could expect something in the range of 60k/year or $35 per hour.

By the way, don't forget these salaries are relative. Austin is just about at the national average.

[MikeVic]

I live in Canada.. go to the University of Manitoba to be exact. :) Those salaries seem high. :)

[wbonnell]

I bet! I know many Canadian programmers working in the states because they want to earn a higher salary. However, software engineering salaries here are shrinking rapidly. We can't compete with, say, Indian programming shops.

[sterlingice]

I'm hoping, for my own sake, things improve when all the people who rushed to the industry run away now that it's not the big paycheck it once was. Unfortunately, I see a lot of jobs staffed out as suddenly someone making $80K a year in the US is replaced by two people making $10K a year in India or another developing market.

SI

[thesloppy]

i'll echo what wbonnel said about contracting being the current modus operandi in the CS industry. Lots of employers got scared by the dot-bust, and hiring contractors as opposed to full-time employers reduces a lot of risks for them. The upside of a contracting gig is that you can usually pull in at least 50% more than you would vs. salary, but are often left with weak or non-existant benefits.

The dynamics of the supply and demand in the CS job market have definitely shifted in the past couple years. 3-4 years ago a degree was n't necesarily required to get a good job, and though it still isn't a strict necessity, the glut of quality workers out there has made it much more important. Likewise, with so many quality perspective employees out there, employers seem to be getting a lot pickier about job-experience with whatever specific tools/languages/roles they are hiring for. My only advice to you would be to make sure you finish your degree, and use your co-op/intern time to get some skills and experience with skills that will translate well into the pending job hunt...ie don't get stuck debugging twenty year old COBOL code. If possible, make sure you get some time in a sizable development/IS team, so that you can get familiar with the processes that are essential to working in that type of environment, yet aren't tought in school. Watch 'Office Space' at lest ten times.

Be prepared to weigh your career vs. your lifestyle. While the larger tech meccas will always have the potential for building a good career, a lot of places that were considered emerging markets just a few years ago have completely dried up. You may have to move, work long/odd hours, or just plain work a job that sucks to get the job you want.

I wouldn't say things are bleak in the CS industry, but the power has definitely shifted to the employer, and you can't just walk in off the street and get $100K for spelling PHP.

[Tekneek]

Offshoring is only going to be expanded, at least for the near term. The current trend has at least 75% of the CURRENT US-based IT jobs going offshore. This does not include the ones that have already left. I would consider it a bad idea to get into this industry now, at least specializing in it. I don't know anyone working in the IT world that is not hoping they will somehow manage to just ride this out, or stay in their current positions long enough to finish their BA/MBA degrees and move into management (management seems to be the one area that corporations are least interested in offshoring, imagine that!).

Don't do it as a major. Don't do it thinking it will actually be a career. Wait and see what happens around 2007 and later before making that kind of decision. By then, we will know a lot more about this.

Besides, the offshore crap may slow down. The truth is starting to come out of India. Seems when singing the praises of everyone over there with degrees, they neglected to find out how many of them got real degrees or went through diploma mills.

[Yossarian]

I'm a recent graduate of Computer Science from Strathclyde Uni in Glasgow Scotland.

I can't believe that your saying CS grads were pulling in 70k$ straight out uni.

I started at £20k and I'm now on £22500 which is about $37K


I am also doing a freelance job for a californian based company on the side. (sorry guys!)


They pay me $35 / hr - which to me is a lot of money. How cheap is that for them? am I cheap as chips so to speak?

[wbonnell]

Originally posted by thesloppy
Watch 'Office Space' at lest ten times.

Ain't that the truth! I tell my wife that this is a portrayal of *my* life. She's never worked in a cube farm, so this is as close as she'll ever get.

As an aside, some friends and I recently saw Mike Judge reading what appeared to be a screenplay at an Austin (Judge's hometown and filming location of OFfice Space) hamburger joint, Hutt's Hamburgers.

[Tekneek]

Originally posted by Yossarian

They pay me $35 / hr - which to me is a lot of money. How cheap is that for them? am I cheap as chips so to speak?

I think they could have found somebody here in the US that would have worked for that. Of course, I don't know the details on the project, so maybe you *are* undercutting us. ;)

[Tekneek]

Originally posted by wbonnell
Ain't that the truth! I tell my wife that this is a portrayal of *my* life. She's never worked in a cube farm, so this is as close as she'll ever get.


When that first came out, we laughed at it but the company we worked for (my wife and I have worked for the same company for almost 5 years) was nothing like that (except for the cubes). We recently watched it again, and the company is now exactly like that. The company changed when the entreprenuers left and the corporate stuffed shirts took over the reins. Now this company does every stereotypical corporate thing I've been able to come up with.

[Glengoyne]

I'd say the starting salary of 70k is pretty high. You might get that working for some government type position, but we usually start folks fresh from college at around 40k. Now granted that is in the booming metropolis that is Fresno, but I know a couple of guys who just started in the silicon valley that were both under 50.

As for the offshore trend, It is happening, but I don't think it will be as pervasive as some predict. I mean I worked for a company that did it, and it just went badly for them. I worked for them as an employee, they laid me off, they paid me my annual salary as a bonus to stay on 3 more months until they could phase me out. They then hired me as a contractor at $100/hr for two years, because the indian contractors they brought in to replace me billing $45/hr were absolutely worthless. Now granted these were indian programmers that some company considered qualified enough to actually ship them here to the U.S., so I don't know how they compare to the stockpiles they keep back home. This is not to say that all Indian programmers are incompetent, possibly the single most talented programmer/database guy I have ever worked with was formerly an Indian contractor. He was certainly a cut well above most of the Indian contractors I have worked with.

In any case You probably won't get a big payday, but I don't think the industry is dying.

[Primal]

I agree with Glengoyne. I've been in companies that sent a development project to India. A lot more time was spent "managing" the project then 1st anticipated. It still took a program manager and a few coders to make sure everything was right.

I think you can look at it as the redundant stuff will be sent over seas but unless a company sets up their own shop over there, you'll still see the majority of the management and analysis handled here. With that said if anyone is entering the IT field, I think they should have a solid understanding of UML.

[Ryan S]

Originally posted by Yossarian
I'm a recent graduate of Computer Science from Strathclyde Uni in Glasgow Scotland.

I can't believe that your saying CS grads were pulling in 70k$ straight out uni.

I find that across the board Americans are paid higher salaries than the British. And they pay much, much, much less in tax.

[MikeVic]

Mixed reactions... well, I am planning on finishing my Major in CS in two years tops.. I am also getting a minor in Business/Management. Everyone wants to get hired for this Co-op term, since they all feel like it would be near impossible to get started after you graduate with no job experience.

I am taking a Database course, so I have seen a little bit of UML.. mostly ER and EER models, though...

I hope to specialize in Software Engineering, which I valued above getting an Honours in CS.. would you think that's the right choice? I don't want to get a masters or doctorate in CS, so I chose not to get an Honours in CS.

Thanks for everyone's input!

[Glengoyne]

I wouldn't sweat it. It's not like any of that stuff is gonna help you in the real world.:D

[Yossarian]

Originally posted by Ryan S
I find that across the board Americans are paid higher salaries than the British. And they pay much, much, much less in tax.

Thats probably very true - but its obviously a bit more complicated with regard to tax and stuff because we all get free health and dental care over here....

What I thought was that programmers / contracters were much more expensive US style which would explain me getting such a large freelance project - after all, wouldn't you rather employ someone local?

i'm not complaining. suits me, i love this work and getting paid above my day-job salary suits me even better.

[Ryan S]

Originally posted by Yossarian
Thats probably very true - but its obviously a bit more complicated with regard to tax and stuff because we all get free health and dental care over here....

I have private health insurance, but sadly there are no tax deductions for that. :(

[Radii]

Originally posted by Glengoyne
I'd say the starting salary of 70k is pretty high. You might get that working for some government type position, but we usually start folks fresh from college at around 40k. Now granted that is in the booming metropolis that is Fresno, but I know a couple of guys who just started in the silicon valley that were both under 50.


A very good friend of mine graduated with excellent grades and a year+ of work experience through co-op work from Georgia Tech in 1998, I don't think it could get much better than that for someone. He started at ~45K at Nortel. They did give him raises very liberally when he proved that he was as good as his grades/diploma showed him to be, but still was making only 50-53K or so after a year I think... very, very good, but yeah, I think 70K was a bit of an over-estimation for coming out of college even when times were very very good, unless you were in San Fran maybe and they knew you were going to pay 2 grand a month in rent.

[wbonnell]

Originally posted by Radii
A very good friend of mine graduated with excellent grades and a year+ of work experience through co-op work from Georgia Tech in 1998, I don't think it could get much better than that for someone. He started at ~45K at Nortel. They did give him raises very liberally when he proved that he was as good as his grades/diploma showed him to be, but still was making only 50-53K or so after a year I think... very, very good, but yeah, I think 70K was a bit of an over-estimation for coming out of college even when times were very very good, unless you were in San Fran maybe and they knew you were going to pay 2 grand a month in rent.

Well, here in Austin, that was that kind of salary that startups like Trilogy were paying. Of course, they also demanded 60+ hours of work a week!

Now that the economy has cooled off, we're paying entry level computer science majors mid to upper 50s.

[Radii]

Originally posted by wbonnell
Well, here in Austin, that was that kind of salary that startups like Trilogy were paying. Of course, they also demanded 60+ hours of work a week!


I could have worked 60+ hours a week for 70 grand when I was 21. I wonder if startups here in Atlanta were doing that too. I dropped out of Ga Tech myself, so I stayed at the place I was working at for a number of years, until I felt confidant enough in my experience that my lack of a degree wouldn't matter, before I went looking for a new job.

[MikeVic]

Well, this sure sucks.. 3 job positions were cancelled, which adds to the already low positions that were available.. and I aplied for 16 of the positions.. only 6 left that haven't given out interviews and guess what... I still haven't been offered an interview. :( Everyone I know has gotten at least one.

This really sucks.. hopefully watching Office Space for the first time will cheer me up...

[judicial clerk]

[ This really sucks.. hopefully watching Office Space for the first time will cheer me up...]

umm...riiiight.

[MikeVic]

Originally posted by judicial clerk
[ This really sucks.. hopefully watching Office Space for the first time will cheer me up...]

umm...riiiight.

Since I've never seen it before.. and I think almost everyone on this board thinks it's a good movie... saw the first 3 minutes, and thought it was funny already. :)

Unless I had to have worked in a cubicle environment to find it funny?

[mtaystl03]

Hey Mike, dont give up on football just because you got hurt one year. You will be back. I mean, shit, Reeves is trying to rush you back to save his job. Computer Science will be there for you after your playing days are over.