Ping-Any Lawyers

[MrBug708]

Anyone a lawyer? I'm hinking of law school and would like some advice. PM me if you are:D

[Franklinnoble]

My brother is in law school.

It's expensive. Very expensive. Better hope you can become a great attorney; otherwise you're looking at a lifetime of school loans to pay off.

[MrBug708]

Seeing as how I wont have any of the 4 year school payments to make, I should do alright

[MrBug708]

FWIW, my major is Hospitality Management. The niche is smaller

[sabotai]

Saying law school is very expensive is quite an understatement. It's not just very expensive, it's incredibly expensive (of course, like all things, it does depend on where you go). A year in law school could cost more than all 4 years of "regular" college combined.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Bug,

You PM box is full. I am lawyer. Graduated from law school in 2000. Feel free to PM me. I'd be happy to offer any insight/answer questions.

H_B

[daedalus]

In addition to H_B, I believe Ksyrup and John Galt are also lawyers. You might try PM'ing them, in case they miss this thread.

[albionmoonlight]

I just graduated law school not too long ago--feel free to PM me with questions.

[MrBug708]

Ok, I cleared it out

[John Galt]

I'm a lawyer too. PM me if you have general questions. Also, if you want to give me a little of your background, I could offer a little more specific info.

[albionmoonlight]

I sent this in PM, but figure why not share it with the world--

General advice--

1.) Nail the LSAT. Right or wrong, law schools put way too much emphasis on this little number when deciding who to admit. This is not like a PhD program where they are looking for the right "fit." If your GPA and LSAT are high enough, they will accept you.

2.) $$ is an issue. I went to UNC, which is one of the cheapest law schools around (though it is getting more expensive for out of state people). More doors will be open to you with a diploma from a decent state law school and little debt than will be open to you with a Harvard diploma and massive debt. (Harvard may get you more places, but you will only be able to afford to go to a large law firm). Don't discount scholarships, either (see, nailing the LSAT, supra).

3.) A law degree is still a pretty flexible degree. There will be a lot of people in your 1L class who focus in on going to a big law firm because that is the "thing to do." Give yourself more credit than that, among solo practice, mid-sized practice, big firm practice, federal government work, state government work, academic work, consulting work, municipal work, legislative work, etc., there are plenty of niches into which to fall. Don't pigeon hole too early (see also--keep yourself out of debt, supra).

4.) Don't go to a bottom barrel law school. If you bomb the LSAT and can only get into schools that are in the bottom 25% of the schools in the country, save your money. There is a minimum level of presteige that your law school needs to have. It is much less than the Yalies would have you believe, but more than Topekia State Law College has (which is a law school so bad that I just made it up).

5.) Join Law Review. It helps.

6.) Remember, there are not too many lawyers out there. There are too many bad lawyers out there. If you are good at what you do, there is a place for you.

[Sidhe]

Figures a lawyer would quote Derrida..

:p

My wife is a lawyer and she did quite well. The trick is in going to a good school and getting good grades. Which is quite a trick..

If you don't already have a job lined up, you have to have a lot of confidence in your ability to get the grades. From what I saw, it took a lot of work. It helps if you don't mind working hard.

If you do mind working hard, go to grad school in English instead!!

[kserra]

Good to see so many law men here on the boards. I just left teaching after four years and plan on starting law school next year.

My question is how many older (28 years old) students were at your schools?

I was a history/government teacher and loved it, but wanted to become more involved in improving schools at the micro level...I always preached to my students to act on their dreams, and finally, after six years of muddling, I hope I'm finally following that advice.

Any other tips or bits of wisdom to pass on? Honolulu Blue...I'm assuming you are in Michigan? I taught in Farmington Hills and live in Brighton.

Money's a big issue with school...with a baby on the way, I don't want to go into 6-figure debt...any good scholarship websites you know of?

Are there jobs that an interested future lawyer can get without becoming a paralegal?

Kevin

[albionmoonlight]

Because UNC was so affordable in-state, there were a lot of "second carrer" students there. Some of my friends who went to other top 25 schools said that the student body tended to be a bit more homogenous age wise (everyone just out of college or only a year or two removed).

I wish that I had waited a few years before going back. I think that those with 5+ Post college years under their belt had an easier time adjusting to law school.

If you are serious about it, look into good, affordable state schools (in-state tuition rate), and possibly move there for a year or six months before you apply. It will be much easier to get in state tuition if you have been living and working there for a year before you apply (again, check with the various schools to see their policy). If 6 months wait will save you $10,000 a year for three years, it is probably worth it.

UNC has a cool scholarship program called the Chancellor's Scholars program. That is the only one about which I know. You may just want to go to each law school web page and see what they say about it.

[Butter]

Originally posted by Honolulu_Blue
I am lawyer.

Me John, big tree.

[judicial clerk]

What an exciting decision!

here are my random thoughts:

-Don't go to law school if you are not ready to work hard. You need to devote the next 3 or 4 years to school in order to get the most out of it and have the best opportunities when school is done.

-If you can get into an Ivy League caliber school then go for it and don't let the cost hold you back. Otherwise, go to a school with lower tuition (preferably a state school). Aside from the fifty best schools and the fifty worst schools, I don't think it matters very muchwhere you graduate from.

-Learn about what attorneys do all day before you make the investment in law school.

-Learn about billable hours before you invest in law school or choose a job. In my opinion it is the worst part of the job and it might not be for you.

-If you just want the money, be a dentist.

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by kserra
My question is how many older (28 years old) students were at your schools?

There were quite a few older students. Just in my class, we had a doctor who was near 40 and decided he didn't like where the profession was going, and figured he would do better as an attorney with an MD; a retired airline pilot who was in his 50's; and an older woman - a Cowboys fan (I say that only because she always wore the same Cowboys jacket and constantly talked about how great they were) - who was the biggest bitch any of us ever met, and who went to jail after attempting to hire a hitman to take out a secretary who saw her steal an exam during our second year. Oh, and she figured that while the guy was at it, he should take out her husband, since he'd get half of her earning once she became an attorney. But I digress.

The thing about law school is that you don't have to have a degree in anything specific to go - besides those of us with Poli Sci and Business degrees, there were quite a few art/english/music major types. So, if you are planning to go to law school, it is imperative that you have some basic knowledge and familiarity with courts, statutes, and caselaw before you go, for a couple of reasons:

1. At least where I went, grading was done on a curve, meaning that a certain % of the class had to make above an 80 and a certain % had to make below an 80. You can separate yourself from the bottom of the class just by learning things that you might otherwise take for granted, since, quite literally, some people come to law school without an ounce of knowledge about the legal system. And unless you're extremely bright, picking that information up while coping with what you are being bombarded with on a daily basis in class, is next to impossible.

2. It's extremely important to do well during your first year. In fact, that's almost all that matters. If you do well, and you make law review - either by grades or by "writing on" - you've essentially guaranteed yourself interviews for summer jobs with the best firms. The rest of us got the scraps.

Personally, I did OK (pretty much hovered above 80's in every class, but nothing above 85), until the second semester of my second year, and for the last half of my law school career, I did very well. But it didn't matter, because the best firms had already taken the "cream of the crop" and weren't interested in the rest of us.

Luckily, I went to law school in Tallahassee and had numerous opportunities with government agencies. I took a job with the Department of Insurance (with whom I had clerked for 2 years), put in 5 years, stood out (which isn't that difficult to do in a state job, sad to say), and ended up with a good firm making the kind of money I could only dream of with the state.

And money's another thing. Things have changed since I graduated in 1996, but my starting salary with the state was $25K! For an attorney! I had $50K in law school loans, and was barely making enough to pay for rent, a car, and my loans. Even outside of the government, I remember friends not getting the great private firm offers they were expecting. The top got $60K with bonus, but most were in the $30K-$40K range. Not bad, but not great, either.

My roommate had an interview with a particular firm and received an offer, along with a copy of an article about how first-year attorneys don't make quite as much as they would expect. So, he turned them down and included a copy of an article about Shaq's recent deal with the Orlando Magic for $126M. that was one of the boldest,most insane-but-hilarious things I've ever seen anyone do. Seven years later, he owns his own firm on South Beach and will probably sell it and retire within the next 5-10 years. Having the flexibility to either work for someone, or for yourself, is nice. My dad runs a manufacturing warehouse and has been shit on at nearly every job he's had, and he says that the most valuable thing I have as an attorney is the ability to hang a shingle if I don't want to continue working for someone.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally posted by Butter_of_69
Me John, big tree.

35-21.

Now go away. :D

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally posted by kserra
Good to see so many law men here on the boards. I just left teaching after four years and plan on starting law school next year.

My question is how many older (28 years old) students were at your schools?

I was a history/government teacher and loved it, but wanted to become more involved in improving schools at the micro level...I always preached to my students to act on their dreams, and finally, after six years of muddling, I hope I'm finally following that advice.

Any other tips or bits of wisdom to pass on? Honolulu Blue...I'm assuming you are in Michigan? I taught in Farmington Hills and live in Brighton.

Money's a big issue with school...with a baby on the way, I don't want to go into 6-figure debt...any good scholarship websites you know of?

Are there jobs that an interested future lawyer can get without becoming a paralegal?

Kevin

Kevin,

I am from right around there. I grew up in Bloomfield. Went to Lahser. My grandma has lived in Brighton forever. I've been visiting there for almost 30 years now.

If you plan to stay in Michigan I would seriously consider Wayne State. It is infinitely cheaper than larger schools (see: Michigan) and has a great reputation in-State. It has a lot of ties to firms and organizations in Detroit. If you want to work outside of Detroit or Michigan, I would look elsewhere. Wayne State isn't that well-known.

I am not sure how expensive Wayne State is, but I came out of Michigan with around $100,000 worth of loans. It's oppressive.

There were quite a few older students in my class. There were all sorts. I think it helps to be honest.

I have to echo what Ksyrup said about the 1st year. It's all that matters. Do well your first year you can:

1) Get on Law Review.

2) Get a great job between your 2nd and 3rd years. Many firms and other organizations interview for these positions very early into your 2nd year of law school, or even before. All they have to go on is your 1st year grades.

3) Clerkships. There used to be a time limit as to when judges could start looking for applicants. This has pretty much gone out the window because of rampant cheating. So again, most judges will be looking to fill clerkships before 2nd year grades are out.

Those three things will set you up incredibly well for your future.

[MrBug708]

What would be a good LSAT score?

[Robbiero67]

Quick question for all you law students/lawyers/law aficionados:

I majored in political science for my undergrad degree and have a decent-good amount of general knowledge of the U.S. legal system. Hopefully, this knowledge will help at least slightly when I begin law school this next fall. Just curious to see if any of you have any suggestions of general reading materials in mind that might also assist in acclimating me to this new challenge? I'm pretty nervous and was just wondering what helped to prepare all of you who attended law school.

[John Galt]

Originally posted by Honolulu_Blue

3) Clerkships. There used to be a time limit as to when judges could start looking for applicants. This has pretty much gone out the window because of rampant cheating. So again, most judges will be looking to fill clerkships before 2nd year grades are out.


I will try to make time to comment on the rest of the thread later, but I thought I'd correct this. In fact, this is no longer the case. There was a moratorium this year that 99% of federal judges followed that prevented hiring before the 3L Fall.

[Butter]

Originally posted by Honolulu_Blue
35-21.

Now go away. :D

Oh yeah... well....

um....

the Jerk store called and they're running out of you!

(BURN!)

[Grid Iron]

Originally posted by Robbiero67
Just curious to see if any of you have any suggestions of general reading materials in mind that might also assist in acclimating me to this new challenge?

If you want to read materials before going to law school you'll be well served by reading books on how to take law school exams and the format for legal writing. Legal writing can be quite different than what you're used to.

[Ufer]

Originally posted by Honolulu_Blue
Kevin,
If you plan to stay in Michigan I would seriously consider Wayne State. It is infinitely cheaper than larger schools (see: Michigan) and has a great reputation in-State. It has a lot of ties to firms and organizations in Detroit. If you want to work outside of Detroit or Michigan, I would look elsewhere. Wayne State isn't that well-known.


This is an important point. There are the great national schools -- Harvard, Yale, Stanford, U-M -- without question, go to the best school if you can get in. There are some excellent regional schools, but pick the region you want to live in. If you want to live in LA, USC is very very strong and Loyola is very good, but don't take your Loyola JD to Boston and in NYC, they still think of OJ when they think of USC. Just a few examples of excellent regional schools:

NY area - Fordham
Midwest - Wash U of St. Louis
New England - Boston U
Northern Cal - Hastings
Chicago area - Notre Dame

Some lower level schools are fine, but (as others here have said) do watch the cost. You don't have to work-up M&A transactions at Skadden Arps to be a good lawyer who provides valuable services.

[sjshaw]

I graduated USC law school in 1997 and will be happy to answer any questions.

The only unsolicited advice I will give is: don't believe the hype about how hard law school is. Med school is hard. Law school is cake.

[-Mojo Jojo-]

Lots of future law students here... I'm throwing in my hat for next fall as well after a few years as a software engineer. Maybe we'll run into each other. Contemplated going after the big patent law money, but I think I would be bored to tears. I'll probably still drift towards the IP field though...

[MrBug708]

FOFC Attorney's at Law

[Easy Mac]

I'm taking a few years off before going to law school. $30K in normal school loans takes precedence over having another 70K coming out of law school.

I'll pick it up later when I have a bit saved up.

[ISiddiqui]

What would be a good LSAT score?

160 is pretty damned good. 158+ is something to shoot for if you want in the top 50 law schools.

I'm a 2L at Emory Law School (28th in US News this year). I can tell you that it IS expensive. I'm taking loans and I'll have $130,000+ when I graduate. Yeah... that bad. See if you can get into a really good public law school. That should save some cash.

To get into a good law school, do well on the LSAT first of all. I just bought a LSAT book (with tests) and just went to town and worked all the way through the book, timing myself and doing some practice tests that way. I'm not sure how much the LSAT classes help, but getting Kaplan book or something is very recommended.

Secondly, do well in GPA (of course). Don't slack off and try to work hard, especially in your 1st semester of senior year undergrad. Combine that with some activities and it should be all good.

Combine those two and look for schools in your LSAT/GPA range. Decide if you want to stay where you are or want to work anywhere. If you want to stay, look for decent regional schools. If you want to go all over or, at least, not where you went to school, you need a national school, which tend to be higher ranked and more expensive. The regional schools, while not ranked as high by US News, are just as good and much cheaper.

[John Galt]

LSAT is the key. When I was taking practice tests (on my own - no prep course), I scored everywhere from a 159 to a 180 (which I was thrilled by until I took the next test and got the 159). When I finally took the test, I got a great score and got into a top law school as a result. This, despite having a mediocre 3.3 GPA at an average state school for undergrad (albeit with a lot of extra activity stuff - primarily explaining my lower GPA). Talking to legal assistants at the firm here, I here that things have gotten even more competitive in the last couple years, so an LSAT score makes all the difference. Frankly, I think the test is way too overvalued, but it determines most of the admission decision.

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by Grid Iron
If you want to read materials before going to law school you'll be well served by reading books on how to take law school exams and the format for legal writing. Legal writing can be quite different than what you're used to.

Here's a laundry list of stuff off the top of my head, some applicable for when you get there, but still...


1. Learn the court system for the state you're in. Know the difference between County, Circuit, appellate courts, etc.

2. Be familiar with the statutory schemes of the state you're in. Understand how to look up statutes. I guess this might be different now with the prevalence of the internet, but when I was in law school, books were still the main resource and knowing how to find stuff in what volume was half the battle. Familiarizing yourself with some online legal resource pages is probably a good idea as well.

3. Learn how to read a case - i.e., learn how to read a case without having to actually read a case. That first assignment in law school, trying to figure out what the case was about, the pertinent facts, the pertinent law, and the reasoning, took about 3 hours per case. By 2nd year, I didn't even have to read the case to get most of the information I needed.

4. This applies for when you get to law school, but see the forrest, not the trees. When reading a case, try to understand what the general concept to be derived is, and don't get bogged down in the facts. Remind yourself of the chapter topic the case is applicable to, and force yourself to see what the case provides that furthers your knowledge of that topic.

5. Be prepared to speak in class. Most law school professors use the "socratic method," in which they call on you and you are required to answer a slew of questions about a particular case. As luck would have it, I was the first person in my first-year contracts class to get called on. I had read the case - some 1800's case on consideration or something like that - and thought I was prepared for the basic questions about the case. The first question was, "What is a non-suit?" Basically, it's some 19th century term that's no longer used. I had no clue, so I said, as straight-faced as I could, "The opposite of a suit." Not a great start, but I was able to answer the other questions and saved myself from absolute and total embarrassment.

6. Get an idea of what your first year subjects are - criminal law, con law, civil procedure, contracts, torts, property, etc. I don't think you need to study them in-depth, but at least understand basic elements so that you start on a different level of knowledge than some of your classmates.

7. Read books about how to take a law school exam. The majority of them are basically issue-spotting.

8. Answer the question "Who owns the moon?"

That was the entirety of my first year property exam. Bastard.

9. Prepare for the fact that in most classes, your end of the year exam will count 100% of your grade. Focus on building an outline for each class as you go, so that you don't have to do it all in the 2 weeks before exams.

10. Get in with a close circle of friends and study together. It amazes me what I did during that first semester. About 7 of us would get together on Friday nights, order pizza, and discuss our classes, try to figure out what certain cases meant, and help each other understand what in the hell we were learning. And, talk about the hot chicks at the law school, of course.

11. Find a 2L or 3L with a kick-ass outline for each of your classes. It helps to understand while the classes are going, and gives you more time to study instead of having to put together the outline. I've found that it didn't matter whether I wrote a 100 page outline from scratch or read one prepared by someone else - I still learned it the same.

[yabanci]

too many lawyers here and not enough accident victims

[Robbiero67]

5. Be prepared to speak in class. Most law school professors use the "socratic method," in which they call on you and you are required to answer a slew of questions about a particular case. As luck would have it, I was the first person in my first-year contracts class to get called on. I had read the case - some 1800's case on consideration or something like that - and thought I was prepared for the basic questions about the case. The first question was, "What is a non-suit?" Basically, it's some 19th century term that's no longer used. I had no clue, so I said, as straight-faced as I could, "The opposite of a suit." Not a great start, but I was able to answer the other questions and saved myself from absolute and total embarrassment.

This sounds like the beginning of The Paper Chase :) ... Thanks very much for the advice, I appreciate it.

[MrBug708]

This is a lot of good info guys, thanks a lot

[judicial clerk]

What kind of law do you guys practice?

[Craptacular]

Thanks for giving me such an easy way to add to my hit list. Keep 'em coming! :D

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally posted by Craptacular
Thanks for giving me such an easy way to add to my hit list. Keep 'em coming! :D

Bring it on, Cheesehead. :D

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally posted by judicial clerk
What kind of law do you guys practice?

I practice U.S. antitrust/EC competition law.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally posted by Butter_of_69
Oh yeah... well....

um....

the Jerk store called and they're running out of you!

(BURN!)

Jerk store... I have no comeback for Jerk store.

I admit. I have been BURNED!

[John Galt]

Originally posted by judicial clerk
What kind of law do you guys practice?

I'm a litigator who mostly does securities work, some antitrust, and a bit of international arbitration.

Where are you clerking (assuming your name is accurate)?

[sjshaw]

Originally posted by judicial clerk
What kind of law do you guys practice?

Intellectual property.

[Hawglaw]

Originally posted by judicial clerk
What kind of law do you guys practice?

I practice Labor and Employment Law on the management side.

I probably did it differently than most. I chose to go the cheap route and went to a mid tier state school. I got out with only 10K in debt. However, I worked hard and got a job in another state, with a really good salary, at a firm where my fellow associates have 100K+ in debt. So, I basically ended up with the best of both worlds.

You really have to ask yourself whether you want to do this. I know way to many people that borrowed A LOT of money and ended up hating their firm jobs. Now, they are really struggling to pay back those loans. Just be careful...

[judicial clerk]

I am no longer a clerk. (aaah, those clerk days. I had no idea what a vacation it was being a clerk until I moved to private practice.) I clerked in Oregon Circuit Court (state trial court level).

[judicial clerk]

I am no longer a clerk. (aaah, those clerk days. I had no idea what a vacation it was being a clerk until I moved to private practice.) I clerked in Oregon Circuit Court (state trial court level).

[judicial clerk]

dola...

now I practice mostly commercial litigation and transactional work. I either write the contract or litigate over its breach.

[digamma]

Bug,

I'm an attorney in Los Angeles, and can give you a bit of the lay of the land in the city.

[kserra]

Thanks for all the info...this thread has been quite informative.

Now that we know what type of law many of you practice...if you could do it over again, what area would you focus on and why? Are there any "booming" fields or "wilting" specialties?

I THINK I'm interested in contracts and mediation...but that's just coming from a former history teacher who will know 1000 times more about law following the first day of class...

Kevin

[Ksyrup]

I practice state administrative law (mostly insurance, but other licensed professionals/entities as well) and related corporate law issues. No court time at all, a bit of administrative hearing-related "court" time, but not much.