.400 Studios flunks again

[44Niners]

So now Basketball is being delayed, and call me crass if you want but I am skeptical about the “death” in the family. The Pre-release happens Wednesday, bugs pile up and all of a sudden we have a death which is causing the delay. Are we really expected to believe that not one single other person in the company could have launched the exact same game that was released on Wednesday?

Now we are being told football will be released at the end of December (a full two-months late) and that some of the ambitious features have been removed. What? Weren’t we just told a month ago that without all the ambitious features the game was incomplete and the delay was need to add them.

In the end, it has been one dishonest thing after another over there. Truly disappointing.

The games (at least feature wise and graphic wise) show so much promise, but they never seem to deliver. No wonder Markus didn’t want anything to do with them anymore.

[TroyF]

I doubt they'd lie about something like that. If they did and it ever got out, they'd be finished as a company.

TroyF

[Schmidty]

I hate to say it, but it really does look suspicious.

[Noop]

I dont know man but Total Pro Basketball is buggy I cant get pasted the draft. Oh well guess I'll never buy anything from them again as I took a leap of faith and fell flat on my face.... now I'm ugly.

:)

noop

[44Niners]

Then why doesn't one of the other folks over there release the game today?

No reason not to.

[Joe Canadian]

Originally posted by 44Niners
So now Basketball is being delayed, and call me crass if you want but I am skeptical about the “death” in the family.

Seriously man... you're a moron.

[sabotai]

Originally posted by TroyF
I doubt they'd lie about something like that. If they did and it ever got out, they'd be finished as a company.

TroyF

I don't know Troy, the government tried to cover up Roswell, the Moon Landing hoax, the fact that the holocaust never happened, the Stone Masons, the Philadelphia Experiment and countless other things. All of them got out and they are stronger than ever.

:D

[44Niners]

Originally posted by Joe Canadian
Seriously man... you're a moron.

Knew it was only a matter of time

[Joe Canadian]

Originally posted by 44Niners
Knew it was only a matter of time

Matter of time for what?... before I said something about such a ludacris statement?

[SlapBone]

Originally posted by Joe Canadian
Seriously man... you're a moron.

And disrespectful to boot. True or not, you always have to give someone the benefit of the doubt when they play the "death in the family" card.

[44Niners]

before the forum board courage showed up.

you have the exact same amount of evidence as I do - None.

So where is the intelligence in choosing one possibility over the other?

[SlapBone]

Originally posted by 44Niners
Then why doesn't one of the other folks over there release the game today?

No reason not to.

/Uses sign language motion with his hands

Because there are some bugs that need to be fixed and this man is the friggin programmer.

[Schmidty]

Originally posted by Joe Canadian
Matter of time for what?... before I said something about such a ludacris statement?

How is it a ludicrous statement? It's his opinion about a company that has a pretty poor track record so far. Cynical? Maybe. Moronic? No.

[CraigSca]

I have no doubts that there was a death in the family, and my condolences go out to Gary and his family. I think you would have to be the lowest of the low to make something like that up, so I'm not even going to go there.

That being said - I'm not sure what the difference is between the pre-release of a game and it's official release 2 days later. The excuses I've heard by some people on the boards (you should expect bugs because you're getting the game early) is a bunch of dreck. From what I've seen on the boards, it's obvious the game wasn't ready, and the timing of their family's misfortune (from a purely business point of view) is extremely untimely (an understatement).

Considering their track record, at BEST I'm taking a wait-n-see approach with any of their games.

[TroyF]

Originally posted by 44Niners
before the forum board courage showed up.

you have the exact same amount of evidence as I do - None.

So where is the intelligence in choosing one possibility over the other?

It's about compassion and giving someone the benefit of the doubt. It's about knowing that you've went through the same thing at some point in your life and knowing that you had to put some commitments on hold to deal with them.

It's about understanding the difference between a buggy game and LIFE.

TroyF

[SlapBone]

Originally posted by TroyF
It's about compassion and giving someone the benefit of the doubt. It's about knowing that you've went through the same thing at some point in your life and knowing that you had to put some commitments on hold to deal with them.

It's about understanding the difference between a buggy game and LIFE.

TroyF

I couldn't have said it better (but I did try).

[CraigSca]

Originally posted by 44Niners
before the forum board courage showed up.

you have the exact same amount of evidence as I do - None.

So where is the intelligence in choosing one possibility over the other?

No intelligence needed - but where's the respect and civility offered toward another human being?!

[Joe Canadian]

Originally posted by Schmidty
How is it a ludicrous statement? It's his opinion about a company that has a pretty poor track record so far. Cynical? Maybe. Moronic? No.

Wasn't talking about his statement regarding the company... I was talking about how he thinks that Gary made up the death in his family to delay the release of the game.

[44Niners]

But again the point is missed. Assuming that it is true there is not one reason that one of the other employees could have fired up the internet store and put the game out there.

If the manager of Wal-Mart dies tomorrow, they don’t close the store – someone else opens it. The suggested reason doesn’t fit the problem and the convenience of a death in the family is that everyone feels the need to “give the benefit of the doubt”

I can’t believe so many of you are ready to buy any excuse without any skepticism. Guess I am just more skeptical then most - especially on the "internet community”

[Coffee Warlord]

Hate the company. Love the company. Who cares.

Do not insult or belittle an employee of a company who has just lost someone close. Unless you walk up to the person who is purpoted to be dead and that person waves and says hello, then keep your mouth shut. To do otherwise just marks you as a complete and utter pile of shit.

[Joe Stallings]

Wow. A few weeks ago, a sim developer plays the "death in the family card" as you call it, right before a release, and is given a tremendous show of support and sympathy from this forum, the .400 forum and other game forums around the Internet.

A similar circumstance happens to one our people (and this *is* Gary Gorski's game, not a team of 10 or more developers) and we get "bugs pile up and all of a sudden we have a death which is causing the delay." This is just sorry, sorry, sorry.

Ben, I'll have to say, the quality of this board has really deteriorated over the past two years. I used to enjoy reading insights about sports games (and other things) here, but this is just another example of vile spewing which has, unfortunately, become all too common at FOFC.

I'll not frequent this community any longer.

Joe Stallings
.400 Software Studios

[TroyF]

Originally posted by 44Niners
But again the point is missed. Assuming that it is true there is not one reason that one of the other employees could have fired up the internet store and put the game out there.

If the manager of Wal-Mart dies tomorrow, they don’t close the store – someone else opens it. The suggested reason doesn’t fit the problem and the convenience of a death in the family is that everyone feels the need to “give the benefit of the doubt”

I can’t believe so many of you are ready to buy any excuse without any skepticism. Guess I am just more skeptical then most - especially on the "internet community”

And I can't believe you are so cynical you would accuse someone you don't know of making something this sad up.

This is a little different than a Wal-Mart. They've already admitted there are major issues in the game that need to be fixed. Why bother releasing a game they know will make people frustrated?

They screwed up again with a pre-release that was buggy. It'll cost them customers. They don't need to lose anymore by having a full release of the game when it isn't playable.

My guess is the game won't be released until the major patch is released with it. A death in the family will delay that patch.

Nobody here is ripping on you for bashing .400 studios. Many people have already raked them over the coals. They have a major PR problem right now that they'll have to address.

Ripping a company and accusing someone of making up the death of a relative are two very different things. It amazes me that you can't see that fact. (or are so cynical and heartless that you don't care about it)

TroyF

[SlapBone]

Originally posted by Joe Stallings
Wow. A few weeks ago, a sim developer plays the "death in the family card" as you call it, right before a release, and is given a tremendous show of support and sympathy from this forum, the .400 forum and other game forums around the Internet.

A similar circumstance happens to one our people (and this *is* Gary Gorski's game, not a team of 10 or more developers) and we get "bugs pile up and all of a sudden we have a death which is causing the delay." This is just sorry, sorry, sorry.

Ben, I'll have to say, the quality of this board has really deteriorated over the past two years. I used to enjoy reading insights about sports games (and other things) here, but this is just another example of vile spewing which has, unfortunately, become all too common at FOFC.

I'll not frequent this community any longer.

Joe Stallings
.400 Software Studios


I used the "death in the family" card reference. It was a really crude way of saying what I meant to say and that is: If someone tells me thay have had a death in the family, I believe them...forever. There is never a reason to question it and it is very cold-hearted and disrespectful to do so.

[Schmidty]

Originally posted by Joe Stallings
Wow. A few weeks ago, a sim developer plays the "death in the family card" as you call it, right before a release, and is given a tremendous show of support and sympathy from this forum, the .400 forum and other game forums around the Internet.

A similar circumstance happens to one our people (and this *is* Gary Gorski's game, not a team of 10 or more developers) and we get "bugs pile up and all of a sudden we have a death which is causing the delay." This is just sorry, sorry, sorry.

Ben, I'll have to say, the quality of this board has really deteriorated over the past two years. I used to enjoy reading insights about sports games (and other things) here, but this is just another example of vile spewing which has, unfortunately, become all too common at FOFC.

I'll not frequent this community any longer.

Joe Stallings
.400 Software Studios

You're right. I feel bad for insinuating what I did, and I apologize. I hope you won't stop visiting this board simply because a couple of people (including me) acted like heartless jackasses.

As I said before, I apologize.

[TroyF]

Originally posted by Joe Stallings
Wow. A few weeks ago, a sim developer plays the "death in the family card" as you call it, right before a release, and is given a tremendous show of support and sympathy from this forum, the .400 forum and other game forums around the Internet.

A similar circumstance happens to one our people (and this *is* Gary Gorski's game, not a team of 10 or more developers) and we get "bugs pile up and all of a sudden we have a death which is causing the delay." This is just sorry, sorry, sorry.

Ben, I'll have to say, the quality of this board has really deteriorated over the past two years. I used to enjoy reading insights about sports games (and other things) here, but this is just another example of vile spewing which has, unfortunately, become all too common at FOFC.

I'll not frequent this community any longer.

Joe Stallings
.400 Software Studios

If you are going to take one persons comments as an indictment of this entire board, I don't want you to bother coming back.

I didn't think it was possible anyone could offend me more in this thread than Niners.

You came pretty close. Someone who has posted a grand total of 250 times on this forum is what you judge all of us on?

Shame on you.

TroyF

[FBPro]

Originally posted by 44Niners
So now Basketball is being delayed, and call me crass if you want but I am skeptical about the “death” in the family. The Pre-release happens Wednesday, bugs pile up and all of a sudden we have a death which is causing the delay. Are we really expected to believe that not one single other person in the company could have launched the exact same game that was released on Wednesday?

Now we are being told football will be released at the end of December (a full two-months late) and that some of the ambitious features have been removed. What? Weren’t we just told a month ago that without all the ambitious features the game was incomplete and the delay was need to add them.

In the end, it has been one dishonest thing after another over there. Truly disappointing.

The games (at least feature wise and graphic wise) show so much promise, but they never seem to deliver. No wonder Markus didn’t want anything to do with them anymore.

:rolleyes:

[kcchief19]

Joe, that's unfortunate. I think that you're involvement here was good for FOFC and it was good for .400. It's regrettable that one or two people making ill-advised and inappropriate remarks have caused you to choose not to frequent FOFC. There are several thound members here and we are talking only about of couple of individuals. Despite our disagreements, I'll hope you reconsider.

That being said, I think you may want to follow a lesson Jim learned several years ago about being involved here too much or posting when you are upset that led to him recruiting Rick as a community liason. There were people here who ganged up terrible on Jim when he reacted to angry or illogical attacks. Look at your post -- you basically accused nearly everyone on this board of vile spewing -- you're wrong. This isn't much different from when Dan from EA accused everyone at FOFC of being pirates -- and I think we all know how well that made him and his company look. I do understand your anger, however. But just as there was no excuse for the comments made by a couple of users above, there was no excuse for attacking the thousand of members of FOFC, many of whom are past, present and future customers.

I hope you rethink this decision because you are a valuable member of FOFC.

[CraigSca]

Originally posted by Joe Stallings
Wow. A few weeks ago, a sim developer plays the "death in the family card" as you call it, right before a release, and is given a tremendous show of support and sympathy from this forum, the .400 forum and other game forums around the Internet.

A similar circumstance happens to one our people (and this *is* Gary Gorski's game, not a team of 10 or more developers) and we get "bugs pile up and all of a sudden we have a death which is causing the delay." This is just sorry, sorry, sorry.

Ben, I'll have to say, the quality of this board has really deteriorated over the past two years. I used to enjoy reading insights about sports games (and other things) here, but this is just another example of vile spewing which has, unfortunately, become all too common at FOFC.

I'll not frequent this community any longer.

Joe Stallings
.400 Software Studios

Given the circumstances and the timing I don't blame you. However, I think you know that the great majority of FOFC'ers do not share that person's opinion. I think it would a loss on both sides if you choose not to come back. In the meantime, I just wanted to reiterate my condolences to Gary and his family.

[sabotai]

Originally posted by 44Niners
If the manager of Wal-Mart dies tomorrow, they don’t close the store – someone else opens it. The suggested reason doesn’t fit the problem and the convenience of a death in the family is that everyone feels the need to “give the benefit of the doubt”

.400 is a small comany, not the #1 Fortune 500 company. I can assure you that if me, my mom or my dad died tomorrow, or anyone other family member who did not work there, my dad's shop would definatly not be open.

[SlapBone]

Originally posted by TroyF
If you are going to take one persons comments as an indictment of this entire board, I don't want you to bother coming back.

I didn't think it was possible anyone could offend me more in this thread than Niners.

You came pretty close. Someone who has posted a grand total of 250 times on this forum is what you judge all of us on?

Shame on you.

TroyF

Sorry Troy, your board owns no moral high-ground in this issue. What the guy said on this board is probably considered slander. I think the best thing would probably be that this thread is deleted and forgotten by everyone.

This is the second day in a row Joe has watched one of the posts on this board get out of hand.

[Schmidty]

Would I look like a pussy if I deleted all of my posts in this thread??

Probably. I really wish I had a filter sometimes.

[Tasan]

Originally posted by Joe Stallings
Wow. A few weeks ago, a sim developer plays the "death in the family card" as you call it, right before a release, and is given a tremendous show of support and sympathy from this forum, the .400 forum and other game forums around the Internet.

A similar circumstance happens to one our people (and this *is* Gary Gorski's game, not a team of 10 or more developers) and we get "bugs pile up and all of a sudden we have a death which is causing the delay." This is just sorry, sorry, sorry.

Ben, I'll have to say, the quality of this board has really deteriorated over the past two years. I used to enjoy reading insights about sports games (and other things) here, but this is just another example of vile spewing which has, unfortunately, become all too common at FOFC.

I'll not frequent this community any longer.

Joe Stallings
.400 Software Studios

I find this funny coming from the guy who runs the .400 boards. I guess over there though, they can censor all they want because its their boards.

Was what was said very tacky and totally uncalled for, yes. Does he have a right to say that, again, as bad as it sounded, yes. We should all band together and call him a jackass for it too, as everything has consequences. But to say that the quality of this board has gone downhill in the last two years, when you run the .400 boards, is a bit hypocritical.

[Ryan S]

Time to close this thread before things really get out of hand.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by Joe Stallings
Ben, I'll have to say, the quality of this board has really deteriorated over the past two years. I used to enjoy reading insights about sports games (and other things) here, but this is just another example of vile spewing which has, unfortunately, become all too common at FOFC.

I'll not frequent this community any longer.

Joe Stallings
.400 Software Studios Joe:

You know I'm a straight shooter. You called me out in public, and I'm going to respond. It is utterly ridiculous to indict me personally, or FOFC as a whole, for a thread in which ONE guy made an utterly classless and tasteless post, and NO ONE agreed with him 100%, as far as I can tell. Sorry that I can't be here 24 hours to babysit, but I can't. If I had been here, the thread would have been closed and 44Niners immediately suspended (which, by the way has happened now that I'm home from the Tucker game. I left the house at 5pm for the game, and just got back.)

What "vile spewing" are you referring to, Joe? You and Arlie have yourself have said how much you appreciate the honest feedback you get at FOFC. If you're going to throw all of that out the window because one guy chose to be an idiot, then you're not nearly as sharp a guy as I had given you credit for being. You need to rethink this one, because you've really missed the boat. Your presence here is valuable, and this place is valuable to you, if you'll use a little more logic and a little less emotion.

--Ben

[MizzouRah]

I was going to reply earlier, but the thread was locked (thank you Ryan), but Ben's post says it all.

I applaud that post, Ben.


Thank you,

Todd

(now I understand why you are a moderator and I'm a member)


Joe, most of us here want you posting here... that's a fact. In fact, I get almost all of my info about .400 studios from people such as Skydog, among others. I sincerely hope Gary is doing ok, him and his family are in my prayers.

[Ben E Lou]

..and by the way, in case anyone is wondering, the first post in this thread was of the rare type that if I had been here at the time, I would have simply deleted it before anyone had seen it. The post remains because it had been up for 5+ hours. It is silly to remove it now.

[Nyarlahotep]

I never thought a post here would upset me, but this one did twice. Even though I am not familiar with who Gary is I would like to offer my condolences to him and his family.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by Nyarlahotep
I never thought a post here would upset me, but this one did twice. Even though I am not familiar with who Gary is I would like to offer my condolences to him and his family. Make no mistake. 44Niners' post is of the uniquely vile type that simply will not be tolerated. He is going to spend Christmas in the penalty box for this one.

[kcchief19]

Originally posted by SlapBone
This is the second day in a row Joe has watched one of the posts on this board get out of hand.
Please.

[Arles]

Well, I am certainly disappointed in the comments by 44Niner and Schmidty on this. I think Joe was a little upset at the lack of respect and decency given to one of our developers. As was I. Still, I don't think both represent the general consensus on this forum.

We are all human beings in this business. I have no problem with criticism on .400 as a business or any of the games we make. But, try and keep things in perspective. Getting a game released a day or two later is no way in the same stratosphere as losing a loved one.

Ben, thanks for cleaning this up and I appreciate the many of the FOFC regulars (TroyF, Joe Canadian, Sabotai and others) that did the right thing and called this unfortunate post for what it was - moronic.

Arlie

[Eaglesfan27]

Not trying to kiss up or anything, but I just have to say I really agree with all of Skydog's posts in this thread. I was very offended by the initial post in this thread, but I was also offended by Joe's reaction. I can understand it as a primal emotional response, but I think if you apply logic to the situation Joe's response doesn't make sense. In any case, I just wanted to say good response Skydog and thanks to all of the moderators who make this board a really cool place to "hang out."

Edited to add: My sincere condolscences go out to Gary and his family and they will be in my prayers tonight.

[Chief Rum]

I feel 44Niners' post was way out of hand and ridiculous, and I am deeply ashamed he posted that here, as I take pride in the general intelligence and integrity of the posters in this community. I won't heap on him, because I feel SkyDog has done everything he can do in this situation and little more needs to be said.

Now, as to Joe's response, that I do need to respond to. That is utterly classless itself. 44Niners' takes the cake, but you, sir, did a fair number here yourself with that one. How dare you indict a whole community for the idiotic and stupid post of just one of its members? When TDCB first came out, I was one of the first to buy. I waited througha ll the problems, because I was confident you guys would make it a good product. I offered my opinions and support at your forums throughout that affair. I felt that there were some bad problems to begin with, but you guys worked very hard to fix that and I appreciated it and helped where I could. I know many other members of this community did the same.

So I have to ask, is this how you treat your customers? Your loyal fans? Take me off your customer list, please. I won't be buying from .400 Software anymore.

Chief Rum

[MrBug708]

I heart everyone

[Chief Rum]

Originally posted by Arles
Well, I am certainly disappointed in the comments by 44Niner and Schmidty on this. I think Joe was a little upset at the lack of respect and decency given to one of our developers. As was I. Still, I don't think both represent the general consensus on this forum.

We are all human beings in this business. I have no problem with criticism on .400 as a business or any of the games we make. But, try and keep things in perspective. Getting a game released a day or two later is no way in the same stratosphere as losing a loved one.

Ben, thanks for cleaning this up and I appreciate the many of the FOFC regulars (TroyF, Joe Canadian, Sabotai and others) that did the right thing and called this unfortunate post for what it was - moronic.

Arlie

dola,

Arlie, I still have high respect for you, sir, and I can't speak for anyone else, but I won't feel right about anything involving your company until Joe himself comes back here and apologizes.

He is the one who did wrong, and he needs to stand up for his own comments here (and take whatever comes with it) or own up for the post he made.

Personally, I would like to skin 44Niners alive. What a fucking moron, pardon my French. But he is gone, so there is only one transgressor left in my mind.

Chief Rum

[The_herd]

I think Joe posted out of anger, at least I hope so, I enjoy having him and the other .400 devs post here. Its good to hear their opinions on a board that isn't there own.

If you read the 1st few posts in this thread and how the thread appeared to be headed I can understand Joe getting pretty pissed, I'm sure Gary is a good friend of his. However, I don't think the way he went about things was the best way of handling it, but I'm sure given proper time to cool off that he'll be back.

I think 44Niners really should think before posting here as well. This is a community that discusses, criticizes, and praises text sims without pulling any punches. But there are things as a human being that you must consider before saying, and in this case posting on an internet forum. To put it bluntly, shit like that will not be tolerated by the people here.

[Joe Stallings]

Guys, I may have overreacted on my statement blanketing the entire FOFC community in the way I did. And I should not have singled out SkyDog as well. He cannot be expected to be on this forum 24/7 and he did do the correct thing when it was brought to his attention.

The main reason for my post was that I was extremely frustrated in this community for not jumping in any sooner. I logged in almost 25 minutes after this post was made and only a very few people had come in the defense of decency on this issue (even though numerous regulars were signed in). Many of the posters to that point were either indifferent (Noop or CraigSca) or going along with this rediculous reasoning (Schmidty).

IMO, if Jim would have been the developer in question and not Gary, there would have been 20 FOFC regulars in 5 minutes after the post calling out 44Niners for an awful post. I would have been in that group of 20 as well as it would be the right thing to do. But, since it was a developer at .400, it seemed that there was less outrage than their should have been.

To me it shouldn't matter if it's Jim, Gary, Arlie, Markus or anyone. If something like this happens where someone loses a loved one, the same standards should be there for everyone from a Human standpoint.

But, again, I did overreact and do not think 44Niners post does repesent the vast majority of FOF community members.

Joe Stallings
.400 Software Studios

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by Joe Stallings
The main reason for my post was that I was extremely frustrated in this community for not jumping in any sooner. I logged in almost 25 minutes after this post was made and only a very few people had come in the defense of decency on this issue (even though numerous regulars were signed in). Many of the posters to that point were either indifferent (Noop or CraigSca) or going along with this rediculous reasoning (Schmidty).

IMO, if Jim would have been the developer in question and not Gary, there would have been 20 FOFC regulars in 5 minutes after the post calling out 44Niners for an awful post. I would have been in that group of 20 as well as it would be the right thing to do. But, since it was a developer at .400, it seemed that there was less outrage than their should have been.In re-reading the thread, I think Joe might just have a valid point here guys.

[Hurst2112]

Very cool for coming back here. Classy as well.

Thank you Joe.

[GoldenEagle]

Joe - I agree 100% with you that in this siutation it does not matter who the developer is.

But I think you have to take into account that this is an FOF board and not a .400 studios board.

[The_herd]

Originally posted by SkyDog
In re-reading the thread, I think Joe might just have a valid point here guys.

I definitely think he has a valid point, but I do believe that as a community, the people here expect threads like that getting deleted before they get out of hand. However, in this case SD wasn't around to swoop in put a stop to this. I can't say for certain, but I do think most of the regular's here deserve the benefit of the doubt.

[Noble_Platypus]

I saw the post after Joe had responded. Had I seen it earlier I would have posted what an asshole 44niners fan is. I havent seen people this wouund up since Darkiller posted all of his anti USA dixie chick mentality thoughts on here awhile ago. Come to think of it, he likes the 49ers too. Maybe there is a pttern here....

[CraigSca]

Just to clarify...

I certainly wasn't indifferent as I did question the guy's humanity and civility. However, I AM very anti-flame war, and based on the individual's original post, I knew that was the direction this thread was quickly leading towards (and justifiably so). Just because I didn't flame the guy, doesn't make me indifferent.

Really, from the many conversations we've had in the past, I considered you a good, straight-up guy. I assumed you thought the same of me, but perhaps I was mistaken.

[The Afoci]

Time for the make-up orgy. Fritz in the middle.

[The Afoci]

Think 44Niners can use the excuse that his grandma died, he was upset as excuse for this?

:rimshot:

I got nothing.

[EagleFan]

My condolences for the loss.

Now, on to the other matters. How can you call out the regulars for not jumping on this thread?

First, it's not 'one of our own' that was jumped on. Not saying that should mean anything, but let's be realistic, it does.

Second, and most importantly, if the thread gets jumped on, all that happens is a flame war breaks out and you'll end up with 3 of 4 people saying things in the heat of the moment that will get them suspended. Especially since there is already a rift between some members of this board and the .400 Fanboys (a distinct classification here, not a general classification). The best thing to do with this type of post is to ignore it and let it drift it's way off page one.

Third, hmm, I had a third point when I thought through this post. Oh well, for right now I'll just use this space to go off the thread topic and say how nice it is to be in first place (sorry Jeeber ;) ).


Now with that said, Joe and Arlie beed to stop posting and get back to TPF. ;) I've sold my soul to FOF2004 but I can find a spare to sell (we Eagles fans have no real soul, so we're told, so it's easy for us to sell them off like there's no tommorrow) if you come up with a winner in TPF.

[GoldenEagle]

I am suprised this thread we repened honestly. I checked the .400 boards and there was no thread pointing them in this direction. I am sure we will have a couple show up here soon. Not that I blame them. I excpect retalition.

[druez]

Sigh, I shouldn't say this but I will. The guy who started this post is really a bit unsympathetic. He mabye me an ass, callow, rude or a 100 different things.

But, all he did was express an opinion. Nothing more he basically just said he didn't believe .400 and said it was suspicious.

Now, I believe Gary and the gang. I see why Joe was very upset at this guy, but should it stop this person from voicing his opinion?

I'm one of those firm believers in freedom of speach and his post wasn't incrediblely vile nor was it completely far fetched. There are people out there who would indeed lie about something like this. NO I DO NOT THINK the .400 boys did, but it is possible that a group of other less scrupulis people would.

Well that is all I have to say on the topic, and I'm truely sorry to Gary and the Gang over at .400.

[Calis]

Good points made by a couple people here.

In all honesty though, don't underestimate the fact that people didn't even look at this thread.

I didn't even look at it until I noticed that it was like, then I had to check. I figured it was another one of "those" threads, after the mini-debacle we had with the .400 HTML thing, so I decided to steer clear. I imagine I wasn't alone.

[Eaglesfan27]

I agree with Calis. Many people may not have read the thread to respond. I think I was logged in here at the time, but I was doing something in another window. I do this frequently, and I imagine many other members here also have FOFC in the background when they are doing other things. By the time I actually read the initial post, the thread was closed. I for one would have decried the initial post in this thread as soon as I saw it regardless of who we are talking about (Joe, Arlie, Markus, Marc, Jim, etc.) These sort of family crisises are the sort of thing that transcends any loyalty to one gaming company or another.

[Dutch]

This thread sucks.

[GoldenEagle]

Originally posted by Dutch
This thread sucks.

You may regret posting this with The Afoci lurking and making sex jokes.

[The Afoci]

Originally posted by GoldenEagle
You may regret posting this with The Afoci lurking and making sex jokes.

Lurking is a casual term. I do have the dignity to not smear the beautiful atrocity that has occured here. At least not with sucking noises. Farting can be erotic, but when it is from your mouth, Rowdy Piper comes to town. Asks for some cash.

[Anthony]

"IMO, if Jim would have been the developer in question and not Gary, there would have been 20 FOFC regulars in 5 minutes after the post calling out 44Niners for an awful post. I would have been in that group of 20 as well as it would be the right thing to do. But, since it was a developer at .400, it seemed that there was less outrage than their should have been."

this is silly. don't be naive man. this is the FOFC board, it's very apparent where our loyalty lies. even if someone were to bash Solecismic we just don't have the blind fan-boys you guys have over at your boards to start up a lynch-mob whenever someone steps out of line (which is why i don't go there).

i also don't think you should be so retarded as to pit your company's track record with that of Solecismic.

jim has earned the benefit of the doubt, your company has repeatedly dropped the ball. there are bound to be doubters, however dumbfounded their conspiracy theories may be.

of course, many of us know that some things are best left unsaid. unfortunately some of us don't. the morons get called out eventually.

[Chief Rum]

Is it an apology when there isn't an actual apology? I suppose this is the best we'll get.

Thanks for at least admitting to overreacting, Joe. For my part, this thread was already closed before I got home and read it. I can't speak for any others here.

I'll be honest, though, I am still very much on the fence with your company right now. I want to buy TPF because I see the potential there, and I believe in supporting text sims. But right now, I feel quite wary of you, and I am not yet sure if I should give my support.

Good luck in the future, and my deepest condolences to Gary for his loss.

CR

[MizzouRah]

I should have chimed in sooner when the post was made, but I figured SD would handle it accordingly... and he did just a tad bit later.

*I* sometimes forget he has a life other than policing goofballs who post without much thought.


Todd

[TroyF]

Joe,

Being the first person who posted in response to the thread, I think you probably deserve to hear some things from me.

1) I knew this was going to start into a flame war. I posted that I didn't agree with the comment and reported the post to the mods. I had zero idea of what the entire situation, other than the mention of the situation by 44Niners in the thread.

2) After reporting it, I came back and saw some more going on and him (and others) acting continuing to hammer home the theme. I was DEEPLY offended at this point. To write a post in anger or make an accusation like that is in very poor taste, but we've all said things we regret or things that didn't come out right. When I saw that this person had time to think about his statements and was now trying to rationalize them, I jumped in and said my peace a couple of times.

3) I had one of those "angry" moments when I read your post. I don't like being compared to someone like 44Niners. I don't like it when my friends (of which there are many on FOFC) are insulted by this comparison. My original post to you in the thread was longer and much along the lines of Chief Rum (ie: I'll never buy a product from your company) I calmed down and was ready to post again when the thread was locked.

To be perfectly honest, I had to read the post 2 times before I realized what it said. I came into the thread expecting to hear a bunch of .400 bashing and I wanted to know what had happened to cause it. I skimmed through the post and shut down the thread. Something bothered me about it and I went back and looked again. I knew at that point it might be a good idea to get flame protective clothing because it was going to be ugly.

I'm sorry for Gary's loss. I wish nothing but the best for .400 studios and understand why you posted what you did. Hope the same thing goes back the other way.

TroyF

[Solecismic]

Originally posted by Joe Stallings
Wow. A few weeks ago, a sim developer plays the "death in the family card" as you call it, right before a release, and is given a tremendous show of support and sympathy from this forum, the .400 forum and other game forums around the Internet.

A similar circumstance happens to one our people (and this *is* Gary Gorski's game, not a team of 10 or more developers) and we get "bugs pile up and all of a sudden we have a death which is causing the delay." This is just sorry, sorry, sorry.

Ben, I'll have to say, the quality of this board has really deteriorated over the past two years. I used to enjoy reading insights about sports games (and other things) here, but this is just another example of vile spewing which has, unfortunately, become all too common at FOFC.

I'll not frequent this community any longer.

Joe Stallings
.400 Software Studios

I can't even begin to tell you how offensive I find these comments.

First of all, I didn't play any cards. I was a couple of days from releasing the game, and people knew that from comments I had made. I had to say something. I posted that I had to leave town because of a family emergency. I released the game a couple of days after I returned.

From the day I left until this moment, I had not made a single public reference as to the nature of the emergency. I do not think comparing the situations is appropriate - both for my sake and for Gary's.

And second, I don't think you understand this forum. It works because it isn't anyone's official outlet, and we have a lot of different opinions here. I left the forum for a long time for reasons actually unrelated to what kcchief mentioned (I don't want to discuss them, but SkyDog's presence is the reason I returned, and I strongly disagree with your calling him out). This is a holiday Friday, and Friday afternoons and evenings, I've found, are always unusually slow here. I think people responded appropriately to a very offensive comment and the right actions have been taken. To indict the community for one dumb and incredibly insensitive comment seems wrong.

Please, just leave me out of your commentary in the future. I don't deserve to have my name brought into this discussion, for any reason.

Gary, if you're reading this mess, please accept my deep sympathies for your loss.

[SCJenkins81]

Joe is right. Come on people stop and think for a minute. 44Niner basically ripped another human being who had just lost a loved one. Losing a loved one is complete misery - and I cannot image what it would be like if Gary, in his grieving, knew that someone was out there accusing him of lying about it just because someone was unsatisfied with the fact that his computer life had been set off course for a few days.

So considering this, I don't blame Joe for reacting with emotion. What do we expect? Is everyone supposed to behave like a robot here? There are some things in life, guys, that are so awful and disgusting, that when they hit home with a decent and upstanding guy like Joe, heck, you're damn right a little emotion is going to come out.

So let's try and remember who the real loser is here. It ain't Joe.

[Mota]

And if you take away all the "death in the family thing", the original poster would probably be whining if it did come out and was buggy. But if it gets pushed back a few days he whines because it's not out. Sounds like he would never be happy, regardless of the result.

If it did get pushed back because of bug fixes, that's great! I don't think anybody wants the fiasco that was TDCB to repeat itself.

And the whole "get someone else to release it" is ridiculous. If Radiohead was in the middle of writing an album and had to get out of town for a bit, would it be okay if the producer and a few record execs finished the recording for them? I don't think so. This is Gary's project, don't hijack it from him, he'll be back in a few days and put the game in our hands in no time. And 44niners will need to find something new to whine about.

[Arles]

Originally posted by Hell Atlantic
"IMO, if Jim would have been the developer in question and not Gary, there would have been 20 FOFC regulars in 5 minutes after the post calling out 44Niners for an awful post. I would have been in that group of 20 as well as it would be the right thing to do. But, since it was a developer at .400, it seemed that there was less outrage than their should have been."

this is silly. don't be naive man. this is the FOFC board, it's very apparent where our loyalty lies. even if someone were to bash Solecismic we just don't have the blind fan-boys you guys have over at your boards to start up a lynch-mob whenever someone steps out of line (which is why i don't go there).

What does this have to do with being a decent human being and not taking pot shots at someone who just lost a loved one.


i also don't think you should be so retarded as to pit your company's track record with that of Solecismic.

jim has earned the benefit of the doubt, your company has repeatedly dropped the ball.

This is an amazing post. To somehow insinuate that the success of some prior game release Gary wasn't even involved with is necessary for Gary to receive the same level of human decency as another person is just stupid.

This is perhaps the biggest fan-boy post I have ever seen in this forum. To somehow say that Jim deserves more human compassion for a tragic loss in his family than Gary because Jim had a better release is unbelievable.

Arlie

[MrBug708]

*wonders when this thread is going to be closed*

It's gonna get ugly me thinks

[TroyF]

Good Lord.

If only there were a button on each person's post where I could reach out and slap the hell out of them.

This just gets sadder and sadder.

TroyF

[SirFozzie]

Originally posted by MrBug708
*wonders when this thread is going to be closed*

It's gonna get ugly me thinks

Going to get ugly?

It's so ugly, it's wrapped around the other side and hit beautiful, and then had enough ugly left over to get back to disgusting.

[Neuqua]

Originally posted by SirFozzie
Going to get ugly?

It's so ugly, it's wrapped around the other side and hit beautiful, and then had enough ugly left over to get back to disgusting.

Foz, are you drunk?

[bbor]

It's a fucking game.

LIFE is more important.

My deepest sympathy to Gary and his family.

[SirFozzie]

Originally posted by Neuqua
Foz, are you drunk?

Just stating facts.. this thing is ugly.

Which is sad, cause I do have a lot of respect for both .400 and Jim.

[WillyWTE]

Originally posted by SirFozzie
Going to get ugly?

It's so ugly, it's wrapped around the other side and hit beautiful, and then had enough ugly left over to get back to disgusting.

That's high quality late night shit. Thanks Foz


Willy

[hollmt]

dont mean to stick my nose where it doesnt belong, but SD or Ryan...close this thread before more people open their mouths, move their fingers, or whatever and say/type more crap.

[Arles]

FWIW, I don't thing bringing in Jim's situation was the right thing to do on Joe's post. And Jim, while I am not Joe, I do apologize to you for that action from .400 as a whole.

[PilotMan]

Maybe 44niners just needs to watch less Survivor?

I agree with the general consensus on this one. One rouge poster, writing things that really have no business on the board, for a situation that in the grand scheme of life really makes no difference. Let the games come when they come, my family and yours are much more important than the game.

[SirFozzie]

Cool thoughts there Arlie.

I do think the thread needs to be shut down for the night, I think we need some cooling off, in the heat of the moment, a lot was said that really wasn't meant.

[Suicane75]

I think everyone other than Joe who says they were offended should be ashamed of themselves.
How would you feel if someone came out and said something to you like niners said to him?
imho just let him vent and let it slide for gods sakes, at least for the weekend.
This thread should of been over 4 hours ago, and not because someone closed it, but because were all mature enough to know when to just drop it.

[Senator]

All this began from a person who has not contributed one iota to the community we have established. What a shame.

[maximus]

Originally posted by Senator
All this began from a person who has not contributed one iota to the community we have established. What a shame.

Good point senator.

[GoldenEagle]

Memphis is 8-3 and playing South Florida on Saturday. (I guess thats today).

How about them Tigers?

[The_herd]

Marshall won today. They need a lot of luck right now to get an at-large bowl selection from the MAC.

[Solecismic]

Thanks, Arlie. I appreciate it.

[SlapBone]

Originally posted by druez
Sigh, I shouldn't say this but I will. The guy who started this post is really a bit unsympathetic. He mabye me an ass, callow, rude or a 100 different things.

But, all he did was express an opinion. Nothing more he basically just said he didn't believe .400 and said it was suspicious.

Now, I believe Gary and the gang. I see why Joe was very upset at this guy, but should it stop this person from voicing his opinion?

I'm one of those firm believers in freedom of speach and his post wasn't incrediblely vile nor was it completely far fetched. There are people out there who would indeed lie about something like this. NO I DO NOT THINK the .400 boys did, but it is possible that a group of other less scrupulis people would.

Well that is all I have to say on the topic, and I'm truely sorry to Gary and the Gang over at .400.

Druez, the simple fact is that some opinions are beyond decency. We all have weird thoughts or opinions every once in a while but most of us have enough self-control not to bring it to a public forum.

This is not a free speech issue but one of common decency. It's not OK to hurt people no matter what weapon you are wielding.

If he had kept the post to the "unreliability" of the game that was made we could have just had a good ol fashioned fanboy fight and be done with it.

[maximus]

All I can say at this time is this;

If I was Joe...I would have said the same things. Right or not, I am human and so are all of you people (although some of you don't like to admit that). To many holyrollers....to many "Im better than you" naysayers that populate this board. And while there are some really good people on this forum who really give a shit about others, there are others that are bringing this board down. Here is the deal.....44Niners your an asshole. Let that be known.

In SkyDogs defense, bro you do a good job and even though I may have some issues with you before that doesn't change the fact that at least you try. Having said that, if you and Joe have issues with each other you to should talk privately and not on this forum because in this community......you both need each other. Thats a mistake I made once before when I called you out a few weeks ago.

[SirFozzie]

Ok folks.. I think everyone's had a say.. can we let the topic drop now? I'm sure if the protagonists in this one have anything else to say, they can say it to each other, and just keep it on the down low, to use an old and trite phrase.

Not trying to be a topic police really, I just think everyone's said everything that needs to be said, and we're going over well trod ground at this point.

[Anthony]

ugh, i just don't feel strongly enough on this issue to waste much energy on it. that's what i get for starting someting i didn't intend to finish.

people will tell you i've ripped into jim many times in the past. i'm an equal opportunity basher. don't be foolish and relate me with anything involving "fanboy-ism". that's a .400 trademark.

Stallings' posts rubbed me the wrong way, i responded in kind. i'll save the golden orbs of wisdom that are my posts for something i actually care about.

[hollmt]

Originally posted by Suicane75
This thread should of been over 4 hours ago, and not because someone closed it, but because were all mature enough to know when to just drop it.

NUFF SAID RIGHT THERE...BUT YET ITS STILL GOING.

[Anthony]

who cares. shit dies on its own eventually. obviously people still feel strongly enough to post about it or esle it would have died even after it was unlocked.

[hollmt]

whatever dude.

[maximus]

As a backer of .400ss, I shouldn't be encouraging this post either. So, I won't any longer but I'll leave with this being said.

Definition of Human

Being bodies that learn language
thereby becoming wordlings
humans are
the symbol-making, symbol-using, symbol-misusing animal
inventor of the negative
separated from our natural condition
by instruments of our own making
goaded by the spirit of hierarchy
acquiring foreknowledge of death
and rotten with perfection

Human being may be defined as the humantrue life of the individual, lived according to her or his own supraconsciousness of fulfilled intellect, so that the co-operative being of humanity isthis undeniable humantrue awareness on the part of, and between, each and every individual, with no authority, meaning or faith above or beyond that. The human individual is a mind and body of the human species, led by the mind. Human being is being fully and truly human

We all screw up. We ALL do.

[EagleFan]

Kirby Puckett?

[The_herd]

All this thread is missing is Fritz, Subby, and some Midgets.

[Marmel]

I cannot let you guys have the midgets until sometime Sunday afternoon. Sorry.

[WillyWTE]

Edit -> my fear of beginning a new page in a thread has scared me away.

Willy

[GoldenEagle]

Originally posted by The_herd
All this thread is missing is Fritz, Subby, and some Midgets.

and Freddy Adu

[SackAttack]

How sad. I think I saw better behavior from the shopper hooligans on the day after Thanksgiving today than I'm seeing in this thread.

That said, a few things that come to mind:

1) First and foremost, condolences on the loss. It's never easy to lose someone you love, and to have it happen on the tail end of what had to have already been a rough week just flat out sucks. My prayers are with you.

2) Joe, Arlie, I'm sorry, but whether you find it offensive or not is irrelevant: timing in and of itself is a pernicious beast, and timing combined with a poor track record is *always* going to raise eyebrows, regardless of whether or not the matter at hand is legitimate or even relevant. It comes with the territory. If you want to shut the idiots up who are looking for an excuse to crow or drag .400's name through the mud, either grow a thick skin, or find a way to put an end to the cycle of PR fiascos that .400 seems to be suffering from. It's a harsh thing to say, I know, but it's absolutely a relevant point.

That isn't to say that those are my feelings on the matter, because they aren't. I simply mean that people are entitled to draw conclusions based upon the evidence at hand, and the conclusion they draw may be baseless, it may be crude, and it may be downright malignant, but griping about an entire community on the basis of a few naysayers is a little bit like worrying about the speck in your neighbor's eye before you deal with the beam in your own. Let your actions speak loudly, and their words will mean diddly squat, is what I guess I'm trying to say.

I apologize for the semi-rant here, as I really didn't mean to get off on that tangent. Nor, really, am I trying to impart the impression that .400 is the party in need of correction here, but it comes down to the fact that several people have already addressed the poor behavior on the part of 44Niners that started this whole brouhaha, and I haven't really seen anybody say much in the way of what I was feeling on the matter, so I kinda needed to get that off my chest.

Again, lest what I had to say in the last few paragraphs detract from the main (if perhaps subdued) thrust of my post, my condolences to Gary and his family on their loss, and my heartfelt prayers are with them.

[GoldenEagle]

Is it my imagination or are threads vanishing from this post?

[SirFozzie]

I don't think it's coming from SkyDog or Ryan, neither of them are even on the list of people online. Might be from someone deleting their posts.

[WillyWTE]

Originally posted by SackAttack
but griping about an entire community on the basis of a few naysayers...


I think this really is the underlying lesson in this thread. HA fell into this with his post above labelling the fanboy-ism as a .400 trademark as did Joe in labelling FOFC based on niners comment. Sad thing is even in a virtual world we can't overlook grouping minority opinions/actions as the overall view of a community.


Willy

[maximus]

Originally posted by SirFozzie
I don't think it's coming from SkyDog or Ryan, neither of them are even on the list of people online. Might be from someone deleting their posts.

I deleted my posts because I was wrong for saying what I said to someone else on this board. He PMed me and told me that I was wrong, I thought about it...and he was right.

[SirFozzie]

Originally posted by maximus
I deleted my posts because I was wrong for saying what I said to someone else on this board. He PMed me and told me that I was wrong, I thought about it...and he was right.

Takes a big man to admit his mistakes, maximus.

When it all comes down to it, everybody.. .400, FOFC, OOTP, everybody.. is part of a community.

A raggedy-ass community at times, agreed, and we quarrell, fuss, hate and scream, just like every other community, but deep down we're all fans of sports sims.

Just remember, even then, we all have common ground. It's a matter of finding it.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Sorry Gary for your loss.

Just for the record, as a member of this community I am ashamed of this thread. :(

[BigJohn&TheLions]

Originally posted by sabotai
I don't know Troy, the government tried to cover up Roswell, the Moon Landing hoax, the fact that the holocaust never happened, the Stone Masons, the Philadelphia Experiment and countless other things. All of them got out and they are stronger than ever.

:D <p>You forgot the most obvious one. Duh! Kennedy "died" 40 years ago. Everyone knows he and Marilyn got a bad pad down in Cuba! Elvis stops by on his way to Jim Morrison's every Kwanzaa...

[pjstp20]

I have to agree with Sack Attacks second point. .400 should have been prepared for anything with this release, and made SURE that it went off without a hitch. All condolences to anyones loss, I'm not belittling that. I just cant understand why more concern isn't shown about meeting deadlines. No comapany can survive like that. This is the THIRD time, so what happened lately wasnt your first chance, and isnt an excuse. A monkey should have been able to execute that release, thats how prepared you needed to be. Now a lot of people are gonna be tenative about buying anything from you guys and they should be.

[Bad-example]

Gary,

As I posted at the .400 board, I don't know you and am not a .400 customer, but I wish to offer my most sincere condolences on your loss.

[sabotai]

Originally posted by Marmel
I cannot let you guys have the midgets until sometime Sunday afternoon. Sorry.

:(

[JeeberD]

Originally posted by EagleFan
Third, hmm, I had a third point when I thought through this post. Oh well, for right now I'll just use this space to go off the thread topic and say how nice it is to be in first place (sorry Jeeber ;) ).

Don't worry, Carolina will make sure you're not in first for long... :)

Yikes, what a thread. All I have to contribute is my deepest condolances, Gary... :(

[damnMikeBrown]

I'm embarassed by all of this.

My condolences to Gary for his loss. I hope that you and your family can help one another.

As far as Joe's comment goes, I have no problem with it. The wording he chose was not the greatest, and he said as much. He came here, saw the load of horse dookey coming down on one of his team. A guy who's going through a great deal of turmoil right now, and Joe stood up, took the bat in is hands, and whacked away. Good for you, Joe.

I appreciate that you chose to moderate your choice of words later on, and remove the broad stroke, but as far as reacting to protect the real life concerns of one of your own, kudos to you.

[Darkiller]

Originally posted by Noble_Platypus
I saw the post after Joe had responded. Had I seen it earlier I would have posted what an asshole 44niners fan is. I havent seen people this wouund up since Darkiller posted all of his anti USA dixie chick mentality thoughts on here awhile ago. Come to think of it, he likes the 49ers too. Maybe there is a pttern here....

shut up dude.
go play your VCR tape of Turkey Bush in Badgad again. I bet it brings tears to your eyes every time you see it.

[Ben E Lou]

The most important stuff that needed to happen has now happened. Closed.

[Ben E Lou]

....although I must use my mod powers to make one final comment.

Seeing Hell Atlantic get called a fanboy for anything, especially Solecismic, might be the most delicious piece of irony that I've seen in my 34 years on this planet. :D