Ping: Shorty and other Bengals fans [Archive] - Front Office Football Central

primelord

12-05-2003, 11:32 AM

I am curious what you think will happen with Jon Kitna next year. Assuming he doesn't completely fall apart between now and the end of the season (and there is no reason to believe he will), he is almost certainly going to be in the running for the MVP. It's starting to look like it was the poor Bengal teams of the past couple years holding him back as opposed to him holding them back.

Can the Bengals possibly afford to keep him next year with Palmer sitting on the bench? I know teams like to have two good QB's if possible, but 1) we don't know if Palmer is a good QB yet and won't know until he can get some playing time, and 2) Palmer wasn’t drafted to sit behind Kitna and he is making an awful lot of money to be riding the pine. However if Kitna gets the Bengals into the playoffs and wins the MVP award how can you let him go?

Just curious what your thoughts are.

cthomer5000

12-05-2003, 11:35 AM

It really is an interesting situation. No one could have expected the immediate success they are having. Knowing the Bengals, I'm almost waiting for the Kitna injury in week 17, forcing Palmer to start in the playoffs.

I just don't see how it would be in Kitna's best interests to return next season. If I were him, I'd taking a starting job anywhere else over a situation where the team is just waiting for the right minute to make "the switch."

Ksyrup

12-05-2003, 11:39 AM

Given that this is the Bengals, one of two things is bound to happen:

1. Kitna will stick around for one more year and prove that this year wasn't a fluke, at which point the Bengals will sign him to a long-term deal, trade Palmer, and Kitna will blow his knee out "Ki-Jana Carter" style in the first exhibition game of the next season; or

2. They'll let Kitna go and Palmer will suck or get injured (or both).

Is there any other way it could go?

Butter

12-05-2003, 11:39 AM

I don't think he will come anywhere near winning the MVP, but there would be a groundswell from the fans to keep Kitna, because he has never bad mouthed the fans or the ownership, even when he was on some pretty bad teams here. He has been a fan's wet dream, basically. Except for the 25 picks a year, that is (up until this year, anyway).

But is there any way the Bengals keep Kitna and Palmer? Realistically, no. Not unless Kitna signs for cheap. Even though the Bengals historically have gobs of cap room, there is no way Mike Brown opens his wallet and has millions of dollars riding the pine for 2 straight seasons. It's just not in him.

JAG

12-05-2003, 11:46 AM

I can't imagine the Bengals would get rid of Kitna after finally having a respectable year's play at QB (well ok, I CAN imagine the Bengals doing it). They've had so many young players not work out over the years that they'd be silly not to put their trust in Palmer until they see him perform on the field. There are a lot of highly touted young QB's who fail once they get into action. A couple of years on the bench will probably benefit Palmer anyway, this used to be more of the normal way for a QB to develop before salary cap / free agency basically forced you to play rookies.

Ksyrup

12-05-2003, 11:56 AM

On a related note, this is from the news-and-comment on Rotoworld.com:

Jon Kitna was named AFC player of the month on Thursday.
Deal with it.

For whatever reason, that made me laugh.

primelord

12-05-2003, 11:57 AM

Is Kitna a free agent after this season? I thought I heard he was, but I am not certain of that. If he is I can't see after this season that you could realistically bring him back cheap. And with Palmer and his $49 million dolar deal waiting in the wings how could you sign him for more than a 1 year deal? And would he only be willing to take a 1 year deal?

Butter

12-05-2003, 12:02 PM

I thought he was, but sportsline says he has 1 more year, then he will be an unrestricted free agent. In that case, I think Palmer and Kitna would compete for the QB spot next pre-season, with Palmer ultimately winning out. Kitna says in that sportsline article that he would be fine with backing up Palmer next year, because his performance this year would end up paying off eventually.

Either way, I think Palmer starts next year, and Kitna either sits the bench, or gets traded before this year's draft.

Philliesfan980

12-05-2003, 12:25 PM

Palmer will go down as one of the biggest busts in the history of the NFL, you heard it here first.

cthomer5000

12-05-2003, 12:28 PM

I didn't realize he was still under contract. I'd say he has to enter the season as starter, with Palmer waiting at a moments notice to jump in (injury, losing streak) and likely never relinquishing the job. If I were the Bengals, I'd at least want to work Palmer into the games at times next year. He needs to get on the field.

primelord

12-05-2003, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by Philliesfan980
Palmer will go down as one of the biggest busts in the history of the NFL, you heard it here first.

I always find statements like these interesting. I am not saying you are wrong, but what are you baseing your statement off of? No one has seen him throw a pass in an NFL regular season game. What is leading you to believe he is going to be a bust? He certainly seems to have the physical abilities to make it as an NFL QB. So then it is really a question of whether he can get the mental side of the game. And I don't think anyone can be judged on that until they actually get some experience under their belt.

cthomer5000

12-05-2003, 12:33 PM

Ksyrup

12-05-2003, 12:34 PM

If Kitna has one more year left on a reasonable deal, and the Bengals make the playoffs this year, I don't see how Kitna cannot be the starter next year. You can't show the fans of a downtrodden franchise a glimpse of the promised land, then willingly knock them back down a notch by starting a "rookie" QB. No matter how great Palmer may become, he 's going to play like a rookie, and you usually don't want a rookie QB running a contending team.

Now, if Kitna plays poorly and/or the Bengals start losing again next year, then you make the move. But if Kitna plays well and Bengals continue to win, then everyone wins. The Bengals get a shot at the post-season, Palmer gets another year of learning under his belt, and next year, Kitna will have to be gone due to cap considerations and the fact that they've invested so much into Palmer. There is no second-guessing like there would be if you hand him the job while Kitna's still there, I think everyone would understand that you've got to let Kitna go and hand the job to Palmer at that point.

cthomer5000

12-05-2003, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by Ksyrup
Now, if Kitna plays poorly and/or the Bengals start losing again next year, then you make the move. But if Kitna plays well and Bengals continue to win, then everyone wins. The Bengals get a shot at the post-season, Palmer gets another year of learning under his belt, and next year, Kitna will have to be gone due to cap considerations and the fact that they've invested so much into Palmer. There is no second-guessing like there would be if you hand him the job while Kitna's still there, I think everyone would understand that you've got to let Kitna go and hand the job to Palmer at that point.

I agree in every way. At worst, Palmers sits because you're gettin a good season out of Kitna. Then you just hope Palmer can step in and have an immediate impact like Pennington did for the Jets.

damnMikeBrown

12-05-2003, 12:40 PM

I'm pretty sure Kitna has a year left on his deal. Kitna had a superb month, but come on now, he's no Dan Marino. He's playing great, and he's acting the part of a team leader, so I'm all for him. The scenario I likely see playing out is Palmer sitting until Kitna gets a nick or two on him. Then, Palmer will get his first start. Maybe this year, maybe early next, but the torch will be passed. They won't force it on Palmer, unless next season Kitna & the Bengals revert to old form, in which case they'll play for the future. If they look strong again next year, Palmer will sit as the #2 and look to take the reins in his 3rd season, when Kitna leaves in FA.

The_herd

12-05-2003, 12:49 PM

Originally posted by primelord
I always find statements like these interesting. I am not saying you are wrong, but what are you baseing your statement off of? No one has seen him throw a pass in an NFL regular season game. What is leading you to believe he is going to be a bust? He certainly seems to have the physical abilities to make it as an NFL QB. So then it is really a question of whether he can get the mental side of the game. And I don't think anyone can be judged on that until they actually get some experience under their belt.

I think Kyle Boller will be a bust, but there is some compelling statistical data to back that up. Not completing 50% of your passes until you're a senior and having more INT's than TD's during that span doesn't lead me to believe he can get it done in the NFL.

Now back on topic, I think the only thing that points to Palmer being a bust is the fact that he didn't really succeed in college until Norm Chow got ahold of him, and even then it was mostly the last 7 or so games that won him the Heisman. But he was a very highly recruited QB out of high school and has good arm strength and can read defenses fairly well from what I've seen of him. He has all the tools you could ask for out of an NFL QB, the only thing that remains to be seen is whether or not he can produce on an NFL field.

Philliesfan980

12-05-2003, 12:51 PM

The only real loser out of this deal is going to be Kitna. Pretty much, he has to play 100% perfect football in order for him to keep his job. All great qb's (not saying that Kitna is one of them, but still), will go into slumps once in awhile (see Mcnabb). The problem is that Kitna won't get the benefit of the doubt.

I think that Kitna will eventually go on to have a productive career somewhere else after Cincinatti hits the wall sometime next year. While he may not have the same tools as Palmer, he certainly seems that he has grasped the mental part of the game.

primelord

12-05-2003, 12:54 PM

Originally posted by Philliesfan980
I think that Kitna will eventually go on to have a productive career somewhere else after Cincinatti hits the wall sometime next year. While he may not have the same tools as Palmer, he certainly seems that he has grasped the mental part of the game.

Carefull! Shorty may stroll into this thread later and give you hell for that. :D

damnMikeBrown

12-05-2003, 12:55 PM

He has grasped the mental part of the game. . . this month! Did you see him the first 5 weeks of the season? Ugggg. Did you see him last year? OUCH!

He's on a hot streak this month, no doubt. The team is on a roll, for sure. He is not the AFC Offensive Player of the Month every month. If he was, he wouldn't be hanging with Marvin's bunch, would he?

Philliesfan980

12-05-2003, 01:04 PM

Originally posted by primelord
Carefull! Shorty may stroll into this thread later and give you hell for that. :D

Haha! I know I know. I'm not saying that Cincinatti isn't a good team, but I don't think that they are quite there yet. Very rarely does a team go from basement to superstar in one year. Rather they go from poor-good-great. For the most part , they are still a very young team. To not be able to decisively beat Pittsburgh, a pretty bad team, is a sign that they aren't quite there yet.

primelord

12-05-2003, 01:09 PM

Originally posted by damnMikeBrown
He has grasped the mental part of the game. . . this month! Did you see him the first 5 weeks of the season? Ugggg. Did you see him last year? OUCH!

He's on a hot streak this month, no doubt. The team is on a roll, for sure. He is not the AFC Offensive Player of the Month every month. If he was, he wouldn't be hanging with Marvin's bunch, would he?

Well I won't argue with you about it too much sonce I am quite certain you have watched him play more this year than I have. But it seems to me that he has been playing very well for more than just a month. In November his QB rating was 95.6. In October it was 93.9. He threw 5 TD's to 1 Int in Oct. Which doesn't look as good as his 11/3 ratio in November, but he also had over 60 fewer pass attempts in October. His YPA were actually higher in October than November.

It does look like he got off to a bit of rocky start in September, but even then his QB rating was 83.5 and he had a 6/5 TD/Int ratio. So to me it looks like he has been playing pretty well all year. I don't think anyone is saying he is Dan Marino, but you don't have to be as good as Dan Marino to be a good QB in the NFL.

Kodos

12-05-2003, 01:13 PM

I just wish I had accepted the ff trade for Kitna instead of Kelly Holcomb...

primelord

12-05-2003, 01:26 PM

Originally posted by Kodos
I just wish I had accepted the ff trade for Kitna instead of Kelly Holcomb...

Yea thanks for turning that down. :)

Kodos

12-05-2003, 01:35 PM

I was sure Kitna would be benched within just a few weeks...

stkelly52

12-05-2003, 01:46 PM

scooper

12-05-2003, 02:04 PM

Kitna is signed through next season.

I believe he comes in with a leg up on Palmer in a sort of open competition. Despite some physical limitations, Kitna is a book-smart QB whose field vision and on the spot decision making seems to have caught up with his smarts and work ethic.

He is the unquestioned leader of the team after Marvin Lewis. He is very popular. The Bengals have become a tight team with great chemistry. It is probably too early to mess with that. So I think he's back next season as the starter unless Palmer has a phenominal camp to unseat him.

One interesting note: Kitna is the only QB in the league this season to take every snap for his team. That kind of luck is bound to run out sooner or later. Even if Kitna starts next season, I predict Palmer will get some time in somewhere.

On a related note, the Bengals are the only team that has no players on injured reserve. :knocksonwood: A lot of that can be contributed to a total overhaul of the offseason conditioning program, which had phenominal participation by the players. A little luck is involved there as well.

scooper

12-05-2003, 02:06 PM

Dola,

dMB, Kitna has indeed been playing well for two months, not one. Maybe something has indeed clicked. It wouldn't surprise me. It's happened before with players like Rich Gannon and Trent Green. It took both of them years to "get it"

TroyF

12-05-2003, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by Philliesfan980
Haha! I know I know. I'm not saying that Cincinatti isn't a good team, but I don't think that they are quite there yet. Very rarely does a team go from basement to superstar in one year. Rather they go from poor-good-great. For the most part , they are still a very young team. To not be able to decisively beat Pittsburgh, a pretty bad team, is a sign that they aren't quite there yet.

I can't begin to tell you how much I disagree with that last sentence.

Now, as far as the "not quite there yet" part? That's right. They aren't there yet. I think they'll win this weekend and go onto winning the division, but they could just as easily lose and miss the playoffs again.

The part I disagree with the the "beating Pittsburgh deciseivly" stuff. This was a road game for the Bengals. No matter how bad the Steelers are, there are no easy road games in the NFL. (ask Green Bay about beating Detroit someime)

The Bengals played well and probably should have held a bigger lead late. They got punched in the stomach late in the game and didn't fold. They fought back and won.

This isn't a sign they aren't there yet. . . it's a sign that they are already a good team and that they are getting REALLY close to being a very good one.

As for Kitna, I don't know what the Bengals are going to do. They can't really afford to let Carson sit on the bench much longer before giving him some snaps. It's too early in his contract to trade him. It's a good AND scary situation for the Bengals to be in.

TroyF

korme

12-05-2003, 02:09 PM

We ought to trade Palmer to Dallas for Roy Williams. We need secondary help, and I love Kitna.

scooper

12-05-2003, 02:10 PM

I want to add that I think Kitna is going to be one heck of a coach someday if he decides to be. But with his dedication to his family, I doubt he'll want to put in those kind of hours after retirement.

scooper

12-05-2003, 02:12 PM

Originally posted by Shorty3281
We ought to trade Palmer to Dallas for Roy Williams. We need secondary help, and I love Kitna.

Palmer can't be traded. It would be about a $10 million cap hit. And actually, the safety trio of Beckett/Roman/Kaesverharn is playing much better. Our biggest need in the backfield is corner. In fact, we could use two corners. Hopefully Weathersby eventually becomes one of those. James is playing well, but he's no pup.

Ksyrup

12-05-2003, 02:32 PM

Originally posted by primelord
Carefull! Shorty may stroll into this thread later and give you hell for that.

Originally posted by Philliesfan980
Haha! I know I know. I'm not saying that Cincinatti isn't a good team, but I don't think that they are quite there yet. Very rarely does a team go from basement to superstar in one year. Rather they go from poor-good-great. For the most part , they are still a very young team. To not be able to decisively beat Pittsburgh, a pretty bad team, is a sign that they aren't quite there yet.

That's funny. I thought Primelord was referring to the fact that you misspelled Cinsinati, not the substance of your remarks. Or maybe it was both.

Which is it, Shorty?

Philliesfan980

12-05-2003, 02:34 PM

Originally posted by TroyF
I can't begin to tell you how much I disagree with that last sentence.

Now, as far as the "not quite there yet" part? That's right. They aren't there yet. I think they'll win this weekend and go onto winning the division, but they could just as easily lose and miss the playoffs again.

The part I disagree with the the "beating Pittsburgh deciseivly" stuff. This was a road game for the Bengals. No matter how bad the Steelers are, there are no easy road games in the NFL. (ask Green Bay about beating Detroit someime)

The Bengals played well and probably should have held a bigger lead late. They got punched in the stomach late in the game and didn't fold. They fought back and won.

This isn't a sign they aren't there yet. . . it's a sign that they are already a good team and that they are getting REALLY close to being a very good one.

As for Kitna, I don't know what the Bengals are going to do. They can't really afford to let Carson sit on the bench much longer before giving him some snaps. It's too early in his contract to trade him. It's a good AND scary situation for the Bengals to be in.

TroyF

Point well taken. I shouldn't have been so quick to discount the fact that 1. It was a divisional game and 2. It was a road game, in front of a fairly hostile crowd in Pitts.

Philliesfan980

12-05-2003, 02:36 PM

Originally posted by Ksyrup
That's funny. I thought Primelord was referring to the fact that you misspelled Cinsinati, not the substance of your remarks. Or maybe it was both.

Which is it, Shorty?

I'm probably the worst speller on the board, hands down.

primelord

12-05-2003, 02:37 PM

Originally posted by Philliesfan980
Point well taken. I shouldn't have been so quick to discount the fact that 1. It was a divisional game and 2. It was a road game, in front of a fairly hostile crowd in Pitts.

And 3) As Ksyrup pointed out, the fact that I was referring to the fact that you misspelled Cinncinnattiii. Shorty hates that. :)

Philliesfan980

12-05-2003, 02:41 PM

Blah, who cares what Shorty thinks.

korme

12-05-2003, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by Ksyrup
That's funny. I thought Primelord was referring to the fact that you misspelled Cinsinati, not the substance of your remarks. Or maybe it was both.

Which is it, Shorty?

primelord was referring to the spelling, and Phillies, you careless bastard, it is

C I N
C I N N
A T I

Burn in hell, you shit-for-spelling piece of trash!

korme

12-05-2003, 02:46 PM

Oh yeah

;)

Philliesfan980

12-05-2003, 02:51 PM

Don't be mad just because you guys just kept on your interm manager on, and your baseball season will be over before it begins!

:)

scooper

12-05-2003, 02:53 PM

Originally posted by Philliesfan980
Don't be mad just because you guys just kept on your interm manager on, and your baseball season will be over before it begins!

:)

We have a baseball team?

Hmmm, and I thought that ballpark was just a big playground for our loveable miserly little old man that sells bananas and ice cream.