The .400 community and TPF

[The_herd]

Aren't these the same people that almost demanded the game be released a week ago? That complained when the game was originally delayed? That guaranteed this would be the greatest football text sim ever and eventually rival CM?

Funny how things change. The majority of the posts I see right now on that forum are people complaining. Some want to know why the game was released if it wasn't ready. Some saying that .400 needed to get it out before Christmas regardless of stability. Some that feel they need to announce to everyone that they are returning/have returned the game. Everyone pointing fingers at Arlie and Beta Testers, but noone willing to stand up and say, "Maybe its our own fault for building up such a hype that .400 really had no choice but to release the game".

The hype monster can be an ugly thing. It stepped up and bit .400 hard this time. Some of it was there own fault for letting it get out of hand, but I will confidently say that most of the blame is on anyone that posted over there complaining that game wasn't released yet or counting down to the self-impossed "before chrismas" deadline put out by Arlie and Joe, which made it impossible to back out of. I just hope that a lot of these people, fanboys or not, realize that nothing constructive came out of the way they acted in the days and weeks leading up to this games release. In the end, all I can say is I respect the way Jim handles releases much more than I ever did before.

[Easy Mac]

Same thing happened with TDCB. Huge hype with cries of "release it now, who cares about bugs," to bitching as soon as it was released. And if you've ever been at the CM forums when one of their games are released, it is far worse than the .400 boards right now.

I still think Jim had the right plan... just surprise people with a release. Try not to give them time to get hyped. And yes, I'm an FOF fanboy, thought I'll probably buy TPF after I buy my books for next semester (come on books, be under $150).

[yabanci]

Unfortunately, I think the christmas god has everything to do with it. If we were in July, I believe they would have known better not to release it yet (if only to add two-point converstions and onside kicks).

But no matter how bad it is with bugs/angry customers, etc., it would have been much worse if .400 had been unable to release the game prior to christmas. If Joe Stallings would have come out on December 21, when the anticipation and tension was so high, and said, sorry guys, the game will be delayed until January or February, people would have absolutely flipped out and would have called for his head on a stick. I don't think they had any choice but to release the game and hope for the best.

[Axxon]

Originally posted by yabanci
But no matter how bad it is with bugs/angry customers, etc., it would have been much worse if .400 had been unable to release the game prior to christmas. If Joe Stallings would have come out on December 21, when the anticipation and tension was so high, and said, sorry guys, the game will be delayed until January or February, people would have absolutely flipped out and would have called for his head on a stick. I don't think they had any choice but to release the game and hope for the best.

I'm not knocking .400 here but I don't buy this. Unless they actually had a plan in place to put his head on a stick and were close to implementing it and I mean knocking on his front door close then they did have a choice. I can understand the pressure they were under but really, it was self inflicted pressure to please their customers which they couldn't do either way.

Jim went through this before with TCY and that's why he does things differently now but he didn't release it until he was ready. He said no.

That being said, I have TPF and have enjoyed it. If it runs on your machine without crashing and for most it seems to have, then it is a fun enough product warts and all. Does it need a lot of work? Yep. Is it a finished product?? Nope.

Is it a horribly flawed and utterly unplayable mess?? Nope.

But people have far more fun spending their $35 and playing the live online bitching and moaning game than they do actually playing the product. That's my take on it anyway.

[SFL Cat]

I think .400 is partially to blame. The production team and fanboys (I must admit, I too was wowed by some of the eye-candy screenshots I was seeing back then) since about July-August. Even if the release had been perfect, no game could live up to all the hype it was getting.

[hukarez]

Originally posted by The_herd
Aren't these the same people that almost demanded the game be released a week ago? That complained when the game was originally delayed?

There were a couple of users' names over there at the boards that stood out tremendously in my mind over the weekend prior to release. One of them threatened to "leave the community" or what not.

Really though...it's almost like temper tantrums. Have to admit though; as much fun as it is to watch folks post in such a fashion - it gives me a splitting headache sifting through posts!

[Bonegavel]

I hate to be hypocritical about this (i hate games released too early), but I personally don't care when it comes to this genre. I think it is a stretch to call us this, but assume the worse and we are essentially Paying Beta-testers... i don't care. I have the game and can play it. I feel at this point that I have a better shot at getting things in the game that I feel would make it better.

The cool thing about this, is that you can wait to purchase. You have 7 days to return or simply don't buy. So, in essence, you can wait until all the patches are out and act as if it was released "when done" and buy it then. In the meantime, the rest of us can play it.

[MrBug708]

Arlie can hide out on FOFC anyday. We are like Brazil, away from the grasps of prying nations.

[Die Hand die Verletzt]

You can't blame the customers for wanting the game. The sole blame for "early release" falls at the feet of the men and women who released it early.

The same people who would have bitched and moaned if they did not meet the Christmas deadline would have purchased the game if it didn't get released until Feb.

I think Xmas had something to do with it. I thought they should have tried to keep the release in tune with the NFL season. If they would have released it sometime before the Super Bowl, I don't think they would have lost much business. And maybe they would have had time to get the two point plays in there.

;)

[Ragone]

Here are my problems with Tpf

How can any football sim not include things like.. oh i dunno.. Fake punt/kicks... 2 point conversions.. more play choices etc.. i'm still waiting for one of my high character risk guys to kill someone or that value have any meaning whatsoever..

Don't get me wrong.. i love the sheer amount of data i get from tpf.. but i could take a little less and get the aforementioned things above and be thrilled

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally posted by Bonegavel I think it is a stretch to call us this, but assume the worse and we are essentially Paying Beta-testers... i don't care. I have the game and can play it. I feel at this point that I have a better shot at getting things in the game that I feel would make it better.

I don't think that's a stretch at all, to describe customers as paying beta-testers. Far too often, that's exactly what we turn into. And that's not limited to .400 by any means.

As for the rest, I think you & I might represent near opposite ends of the spectrum.

In most basic terms:

You -- just release it, and I'll play incomplete/buggy games as long as they'll run.

Me -- if you can't get it right, or even close to right, don't bother wasting my time.

Not picking on you Bonegavel, your approach is as valid for you as mine is for me. I'm just saying that we're a pretty good pair of opposites to examine.

FWIW, I believe your approach is winning the tug-of-war. And that does a lot to explain why I'm spending more & more of my money on tabletop games and less & less on computer sims.

The pay-to-debug model has just about run its course with me, I'd rather not bother with a game at all if most of my time with it is spent being disappointed and/or pissed off by it.

Jon

[Axxon]

Jon,

thats why I'm a big fan of pay to beta programs. I had a blast doing this with Galactic Civilizations and no one who participated felt ripped off. The end product was also far more involved and polished than the initial vision and the entire community got a better game without feeling gypped by the "initial" release which was solid.

Basically it's a win-win as long as the company puts out interesting beta's, and galciv's first beta was playable and interesting in it's own right, and considers the testers as an important part of the process. The beta testers work didn't feel like work and we got to see our ideas implemented as we went along.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Axxon - And, if I understand the GC situation correctly, is fine by me.

You knew what you were paying for, you knew the pros & cons of it, you made a decision & it worked for you. Seems all good to me.

Maybe that'll even become the standard someday.

But right now, as bonegavel pointed out, it's being done in effect by too many companies who aren't as up front about it. That's the part that ticks me off.

And that's making me less & less willing to spend my $$ on the whole genre.

Some might wonder "Why bitch about it then".

Same reason we bitch about the DH or the "No Fun League" issue or whatever. It's something we don't like, maybe downright hate, about something we used to really enjoy, maybe downright love.

It's gotten to the point that, when a new release is first mentioned, my gut reaction isn't "hey, that'll be cool", it's
"I wonder how f'ed up it'll be & how long before it's worth my time or my money, if ever".

[Axxon]

Oh we agree on the issue Jon and as I've been a part of a program that worked well it makes me madder than it makes you because a better solution exists but most companies would rather use unwitting ( relatively ) customers for the same essential process and in the process alienate said customers and put out an inferior product as post release time is more spent chasing down bugs as opposed to polishing the product.

It makes no sense and they're getting the money upfront in the development cycle to boot. I don't get the problem with this model and I rather suspect, neither does Stardock.

[Bonegavel]

Originally posted by JonInMiddleGA
Not picking on you Bonegavel, your approach is as valid for you as mine is for me. I'm just saying that we're a pretty good pair of opposites to examine.


Agreed.

I will say that I don't share the "release it now and I'll help you iron things out" sentiment for any other games. I read reviews and am very meticulous with every game I purchase. Especially war games (hex based - Korsun Pocket et al).

I just feel that the Football Text Sim market needs extra special treatment. It is like we have the last two dodo birds in a cage and we must be careful how we handle them, lest they perish and take the last remaining code-zygotes to Davey Jones' locker in the sky.

To me, the TPF launch was flawless; I never had a crash or RTE and the patch came out before I ever made it to simming games. Not to beat a dead horse, but for a first version, I am very impressed and am eagerly awaiting patches to add functionality. I will even go so far as to express my eagerness for TPF2005.

The only issue I have with TPF right now is the clumsiness of the interface. If that is the top of my problem-list, that is a good thing because that can be easily remedied. Most other things that I've seen discussed seem to be tweaks (stats, fake fg/punts, onside kicks, etc).

[maximus]

Originally posted by Bonegavel
To me, the TPF launch was flawless; I never had a crash or RTE and the patch came out before I ever made it to simming games. Not to beat a dead horse, but for a first version, I am very impressed and am eagerly awaiting patches to add functionality. I will even go so far as to express my eagerness for TPF2005.

The only issue I have with TPF right now is the clumsiness of the interface. If that is the top of my problem-list, that is a good thing because that can be easily remedied. Most other things that I've seen discussed seem to be tweaks (stats, fake fg/punts, onside kicks, etc).


To me, the TPF launch was flawless; I never had a crash or RTE and the patch came out before I ever made it to simming games. Not to beat a dead horse, but for a first version, I am very impressed and am eagerly awaiting patches to add functionality. I will even go so far as to express my eagerness for TPF2005.


I completly agree. I didn't have any crashes or RTEs with the first launch. I did have that RTE 91 error after the patch was released but this has now been fixed. My first experience was flawless as well (except for the 2pt conversions/onside kicks/ ect)

The only issue I have with TPF right now is the clumsiness of the interface. If that is the top of my problem-list, that is a good thing because that can be easily remedied. Most other things that I've seen discussed seem to be tweaks (stats, fake fg/punts, onside kicks, etc).

The interface does need some work I agree with this as wel. The tweaks need to be done though. Arlie has said that we may see a patch that handles these tweaks by next week.


One thing that I would like to add is the ability to do 3rd party utilities is going to be great with TPF. With the little knowledge I have in wrting utilities I have already seen some things *I* may be able to do. The database is a free for all basically. Some files need passwords and Arlie has said before the release of TPF that he would help out in any way in the creation of utilities.

[The_herd]

I just feel that the Football Text Sim market needs extra special treatment.


I couldn't agree more here. I'm more than willing to help the text sim market, and right now I think the best way to do that is by purchasing the games and accepting the fact you are most likely going to be a paying beta tester in some way until a game hits its 3rd or 4th version. The reason I'm willing to do this for this genre and not others is the simple fact that these games are made by an incredibly small group of people that really are doing there best. And if they show they are dedicated and the games show some promise, I'll the 1st in line to buy them.

To me, the TPF launch was flawless; I never had a crash or RTE and the patch came out before I ever made it to simming games. Not to beat a dead horse, but for a first version, I am very impressed and am eagerly awaiting patches to add functionality. I will even go so far as to express my eagerness for TPF2005.

It was almost flawless for me as well. The only RTE or crash I ran into was the problem with traded starters and going to the depth chart, which I purposely tested along with several other things as I was trying to help find the bugs that are inevitable with the initial release.

I think the key for me now is to hold off a bit, not because I'm disappointed, but because I really don't want to be burnt out on the game when Arlie gets everything running as intended and has all the planned features installed. Not to compare the 2, but I made the mistake of playing too much TDCB before it became the game that Arlie had invisioned and was sick of it by the time it was a great game.

Arlie, HR, Jim, and any other developers that make games I'm interested in will have my full support and can count on my purchase for every game they put out. However, I will still be critical of games when they are released, if the situation warrents it. I've sent Joe a few emails regarding TPF, I don't see the reason to post certain things on a message board, that's what leads to the ridiculousness we see over at .400 on a regular basis.

[Marc Vaughan]

IMHO text sim fans are very passionate which is both a blessing and a curse ....

It means you get prompt feedback on any flaws in the games which you create, however any flaw even if it doesn't seriously affect gameplay will be magnified by the medium of the net to appear a critical problem.

Personally I'm happy to take the rough with the smooth and feel that the advent of the net has helped me make better games by giving me more feedback from people who play them ...

[Buccaneer]

That obviously would work best if the intent is to improve the game or genre. I have been seeing (or hearing about secondhand) way too many folks with ulterior motives of publicly ridiculing product X in order to promote product Y.

[EagleFan]

I don't really see that forum as a community, it's more of a cult. The fire is fueled by the fanboys who attack anyone that questions the game. These same fanboys go to other forums, such as this one, to publicly attack the competition in an attempt to promote that game. Both offenses create a strong backlash that forms a negative opinion of the game and the company. It's a shame for .400 that their childish fanboys may be taking business away from them.

[astralhaze]

Originally posted by EagleFan
I don't really see that forum as a community, it's more of a cult. The fire is fueled by the fanboys who attack anyone that questions the game. These same fanboys go to other forums, such as this one, to publicly attack the competition in an attempt to promote that game. Both offenses create a strong backlash that forms a negative opinion of the game and the company. It's a shame for .400 that their childish fanboys may be taking business away from them.

Case in point...

http://www.400softwarestudios.com/invboard/upload/index.php?showtopic=46432

[FargoFreez aka fof playa]

Dude that is frickin hilarious, especially holyroller's response.

[korme]

astral needs to be more active in GD over here.. :D

[Danny]

I am disappointed in the lack of 2 pt conversions, onside kicks and penalties. To the point where I wont be playing out my games until those are added. I don't understand how those weren't in the original plan. I was also pretty disappointed in there not being any customizable league sizes, but I understand why they left that out and look forward to that being in TPF2. I have yet to experience a single RTE myself and find the off-season to be the best there is. The game is great looking and I actually like the interface, but there is some needed improvement there. With all that said, this being the holidays, I've only logged 8 or so hours into the game, so Im sure there are problems I havnt noticed.

Now, I really don't understand the bashing of the game or the "fanboyism" posts. For those who love the text sports sim genre, we need to support .400's efforts as much as we can. Thats not to say we can't provide constructive criticism, but trying to bring the company down isn't going to help the genre. If you feel that strongly against the company, don't buy the game. Same thing with fanboyism. Not realizing problems with the game isn't going the help the game and thus the genre to get better either.

[astralhaze]

Originally posted by EagleEye11
Now, I really don't understand the bashing of the game or the "fanboyism" posts. For those who love the text sports sim genre, we need to support .400's efforts as much as we can. Thats not to say we can't provide constructive criticism, but trying to bring the company down isn't going to help the genre. If you feel that strongly against the company, don't buy the game.


I don't have the game yet, so I can't comment on it.

However, I do support .400. I want them to succeed. Their aims are excellent and they have the potential to produce great games for the text-sim lovers of the world.

That is precisely why it upsets me when they roll out the hype machine, release the game early, and then get defensive and arrogant when people criticize them. Their marketing strategy, business decisions, and handling of critical posters is what I don't like. I think it needs to change for .400 to succeed. Cultivating people like Jason K is also not a wise decision.

I was very angry over the TD release and decided not to buy any other .400 titles until they were patched to a playable level. I was hoping to be pleasantly surprised by the TPF release, and again I don't have it yet, but the volume of bug reports combined with the baffling omissions, and some of the posts Arlie and Joe have made seem to confirm my worst fears. I wish those things hadn't happened, but commenting on it doesn't mean that I want .400 to fail. I'm sure I will purchase the game at some point, hopefully in the not too distant future.

[astralhaze]

This alarms me a great deal:

"It is also true that some people who 1) have not even purchased the game and/or 2) have a history of taking cheap shots (mostly on other public discussion forums) at both our company and the fantastic community supporting us, have come into the fray by criticizing the way we develop games, the design/features of the games, our support, our business model, the way we market, the way we communicate, the way we beta test, and so on.

Luckily, those people are pretty easy to single out, and we will be significantly more strict with the management of these message forums in 2004. Customers looking for technical support, and/or who just want to discuss what they like and discuss about our games, will have a much more pleasant experience in the coming weeks, I promise."

[Danny]

I do agree that the way they hype their games does need to change.

As for the buggy releases, I really don't know to be honest. TD, TPB and TPF are first generation releases. I didn't play OOTP 1, FOF 1 or the original Championship manager. I would be interested in hearing opinion of the .400 1st generation games compared to to those I mentioned. Were those releases well received or did they have similiar problems? I'm not a programmer, but I would imagine things will be much easier for .400 the 2nd time around for their games since they will have a code base to add to instead of building it from scratch.

[MrBug708]

You'd think they'd get the clue that thier developers post on our site even though we "bash" the company at will"

[astralhaze]

Originally posted by EagleEye11
As for the buggy releases, I really don't know to be honest. TD, TPB and TPF are first generation releases. I didn't play OOTP 1, FOF 1 or the original Championship manager. I would be interested in hearing opinion of the .400 1st generation games compared to to those I mentioned. Were those releases well received or did they have similiar problems? I'm not a programmer, but I would imagine things will be much easier for .400 the 2nd time around for their games since they will have a code base to add to instead of building it from scratch.

Well they have admitted that they released TD too early. Unfortunately I think they were bullied by the fan base (which they bear some responsibility for I am by promising a release before Christmas) and released this one too early as well, although again I am just basing that off of what I am reading. I don't know how buggy this game is as I don't have it, but TD was absolutely unplayable. First release or no, that isn't going to fly.

With TPF, I'm not upset at all about the game because I learned my lesson and am going to keep my money in my pocket until it looks all clear. The only thing that is really dismaying me right now is the climate on the board. I'm going to buy the game regardless, but it really worries me. Not sure how many people are going to want to be part of a community like that. Just my two cents, for what it is worth.

[Fouts]

I wish somebody would bring back expansion to the baseball/football text sim.

[Axxon]

Originally posted by EagleEye11
I am disappointed in the lack of 2 pt conversions, onside kicks and penalties. To the point where I wont be playing out my games until those are added. I don't understand how those weren't in the original plan.

To be fair, I wondered the same thing but reading the board I've come to realize that these were always part of the plan but they wanted/needed to get the game out to catch the christmas rush and they all got together ( Jason K even hinted that the beta group was consulted ) and decided that they must leave these things out in order to meet the deadline.

It seems the alternative was to not include the ingame coaching at all. This was deemed a better choice than that. Apparantly releasing the game when it was ready was no longer an option for whatever reason.

For some reason, this disappoints me worse than if it was simply an oversite but I have absolutely no way to know why the rush to bring the game out. It justs bothers me that they would feel comfortable knowingly putting out a game that wasn't finished and not say anything about it but again, I don't know their situation and they may have truly had their backs against a wall.

[Bonegavel]

The only thing that bugs me about the fanboy malarkey is when people simply state "This game is the best sports sim. Period." Well, ok. You are entitled to your opinion, but let us know why it is the best game ever.

We have a large amount of posts on this board detailing our likes and disklikes about the FOF franchise. Note the word detailing. If the Zealots (i don't think I can type 'fanboy' one more time) over there really want people to "see the game" for what it really is, then they should post detailed descriptions of why they like the game and not just "THIS GAME ROCKS!"

I have been upfront in my support for TPF, regardless of how it turned out, in many posts. However, the game is good and the main priority, IMHO, is to fix the amount of time I need to click around the interface to get at the information I want and to provide better feedback for my decisions.

[MizzouRah]

One particular question made me chuckle last night (from a post by Jason). He wanted to know some things about patch 1.1, then he asks: "After the PBP things are added will this be the best football sim on the market?"

What kind of question is that? I know what product the question was aimed at, but that's the kind of questions that start these so called 'fanboy' flame wars. Why would Joe or Arlie want posts from a beta team member like this?

I can only see 3 possible answers to this question:

TPF Fanboy: "Hell yeah, this game rules! No game comes close"
FOF Fanboy: "No way, TPF suckz dude. Another dud by .400"
Normal answer: "I like both of these games. Gives reasons for each game"

Maybe I'm a little tired of all the enuendos that seem to be aimed at FOF. Or maybe I'm getting flashbacks of EA vs Sega crap. I welcome anyone who makes sports sims, it only adds competition, which is why most of us play a sports sim anyway.

The community over there is realitvely new, at least compared to what FOFC has been through, but I don't blame most of us who prefer to post here..............


Todd

[JimboJ]

Originally posted by The_herd
Funny how things change. The majority of the posts I see right now on that forum are people complaining. Some want to know why the game was released if it wasn't ready. Some saying that .400 needed to get it out before Christmas regardless of stability. Some that feel they need to announce to everyone that they are returning/have returned the game. Everyone pointing fingers at Arlie and Beta Testers, but noone willing to stand up and say, "Maybe its our own fault for building up such a hype that .400 really had no choice but to release the game".

Why do you make it sound like the game was a total distaster? They released the game, there were some bugs, and they fixed them in a patch released two days later. What's the problem? Yes the bugs should have been found by the beta testers, but you could say that about any software.

And guess what? The majority of posts will always be from people complaining. It human nature to comment about things you don't like rather than about things you do like.

All that being said, it still boggles my mind how they could design a football game without 2 point conversions, onside kicks, or penalties. Serious oversight there.:eek:

[TheCount]

hello im new to text sim, i have been playing madden................But now i dont know what game to get reading this makes me sick......If i have to join a club when i buy a game thats sad i have read this thread and the one on tpf......................I must say GIVE IT UP GUYS...... from wht i see as a person who is looking to see what game he should buy , i would not buy FOF or TBF because of how you guys all think the other team is doing the wrong...................sad when we cant small our on shit.................The makes of both game should ban all posr and people who get inot small minded thing as this............But then i never licked forums people try to sound like they are smart but most do not do samrt things.........I will not buy FOF or TPF if its like this..............Remember new people read forums to get a feel on the people who play this game........I would think i would want more people to get into all football text sim, would that not make it better 4 all? Or is this a club who has no need 4 new blood.......................Dont mean to piss anyone off but as my dad said "you can never make anone do right, but never let them make you do wrong"...............Any other text football sim...............lol never mine i think i know what you would say!!

[Arles]

First, let me post a reply I made in .400:

Hmm, I don't see this release as being "as distaterous" as some people have said. In the original game, there was an issue with the fantasy draft and starting with the offseason, but this issue was easily fixed by starting in week 1 instead. There were also a few crashes, but they were fairly rare and easy to avoid once they were found. Numerous people simmed 30-40 seasons of history and went on to play for 10-15 years without any issues. Of course, they didn't post because they were too busy enjoying the game. There were a few AI issues regarding penalties and they were addressed in a patch two days later.

Now, with the patch we just uploaded, people can start a full fantasy draft, sim 20-30 seasons of history, take over and start running the offseason that has a very capable draft and FA AI, and advance to the preseason where they can have over 80 players on their roster. Then, the game plays each preseason game with the idea of getting younger players more time. Finally, you can sim a full season without issue and get a report on how you performed. Not to mention the fact that the yearly stats are within a very tight margin of error of what the NFL produces in both league leaders and league stat output. This is two days after the release of a first version of a game. And, on the day of the release, most people could do the exact same thing minus the fantasy draft.
--------------

Now, there were a few issues - but this was a first release sports sim with a very ambitious fearure list. There's full career mode, no issues with stats staying consistent over even 100 years, solid and realistic season stats, solid season and career leaders, full multi-staged bidding process on FAs, restricted Free Agents with tenders and matches, the ability to view career stats and picks from any draft in your career's history, full multiplayer options with HTML report support, full preseason with up to 80-man rosters and an AI that plays backups in the exact format done in the NFL, player morale, and numerous other features that work well - even on the initial release.

Most of the issues people encountered could have been easily avoided with a workaround (two biggest - start fantasy draft in week 1 instead of offseason and make sure no inactive players are on your depth chart in week 1). If you did those two things, you avoided 90% of the crashes in the first release. That's not an excuse for them being there (and both were fixed in version 1.1), but I think it does show that the game was playable and enjoyable from the first day.

Now, there are still issues that need to be addressed. The main ones being the fact that no 2-point conversions or onside kicks are in the game. This is something that I am going to have in by early next week and I agree with the sentiment that they should have been in the game from the start.

Finally, there has been a lot of negativity about the "hype" TPF has received. I can tell you right now that I would rather be on a message board with 50 threads on issues people would like changed and even a certain number of "over-the-top" negative comment than a board where no one cares. Not only is a better from a business standpoint, but that level of feedback can only make a game better. In addition, we are trying to bring more people into this genre. I would love to be in a situation where you have 20,000-30,000 people buying TPF, FOF, OOTP, TPB and Total Pro Baseball. With that type of fan support, imagine the quality of the games and ability of the developers to do more expensive and new things to improve their games.

But, in order to do that, you have to increase that market. In other words - that involves more "hype". You need to send press releases to people normally not interested in the genre or stick your kneck out on certain media interviews or projects normally not associated with sports text sims. That's what we're trying to do with .400 and we are certainly going to take our lumps for this along the way. But, in the end, I feel all sports sim fans will benefit.

So, all I ask is that people compare TPF with other first generation sports sims and then ask if it would have been as successful without the level of fan activity (positive and negative) that it received.

Arlie

[Arles]

Originally posted by MizzouRah
One particular question made me chuckle last night (from a post by Jason). He wanted to know some things about patch 1.1, then he asks: "After the PBP things are added will this be the best football sim on the market?"

What kind of question is that? I know what product the question was aimed at, but that's the kind of questions that start these so called 'fanboy' flame wars. Why would Joe or Arlie want posts from a beta team member like this?

We don't control posts from Jason anymore than we control posts from Sky Dog (both Beta team members). The BETA team is not "controlled" by .400 in everything they say. Outside of our NDA, they are free to say what they like. Some people are excited about TPF, maybe even a little over-excited at times. But, that's going to happen with a first generation title with promise. I remember how pumped I was when FOF and Baseball Mogul first came out - why deny that to others on this title?

So, another interesting question is why are some people so upset when people enjoy TPF and post what an exciting and fun game they think it is?

Arlie

[Mel Kiper's Hair]

Arlie: Maybe you should have been more concerned with putting out a quality game instead of putting out a game that is ok for a 1st generation title.

I'm so sick of you using that "it's a 1st generation title" crutch. I guess you guys really had no intention of providing quality, you were completely happy with mediocrity.

How in the world can you leave out fundamental aspects of football like onside kicks and fake special teams plays, and still tell us you weren't just trying to grab our Christmas money.

This was just another money grab, just like every other of your releases.

[The_herd]

Originally posted by JimboJ
Why do you make it sound like the game was a total distaster? They released the game, there were some bugs, and they fixed them in a patch released two days later. What's the problem? Yes the bugs should have been found by the beta testers, but you could say that about any software.



If you think I'm the one making the game sound like a total disaster you are sadly mistaken. I've been very supportive of TPF since it was released. Read my posts around here if you don't believe me. After doing that, go to the .400's forum and tell me who is making the game sound like its a mess. I was simply pointing that fact out. Get the entire story before responding to my post in such a way. Your time would be much better spent calling them out on bashing TPF than me.

[TroyF]

Originally posted by Arles
We don't control posts from Jason anymore than we control posts from Sky Dog (both Beta team members). The BETA team is not "controlled" by .400 in everything they say. Outside of our NDA, they are free to say what they like. Some people are excited about TPF, maybe even a little over-excited at times. But, that's going to happen with a first generation title with promise. I remember how pumped I was when FOF and Baseball Mogul first came out - why deny that to others on this title?

So, another interesting question is why are some people so upset when people enjoy TPF and post what an exciting and fun game they think it is?

Arlie

Arlie,

I think this is one of those things that cuts both ways. Let me ask this the other way: Why are people so upset that a football game without onside kicks and 2 point conversions is unplayable, a flat out gamebreaker to some people?

I'm happy people enjoy playing the game. When some of the things I expect to be in a football sim are in there, I'll give .400 some of my money and play the game myself.

This is like politics. You have the far left and the far right screaming at the top of their lungs while 90% of the population sits quietly wondering what all the fuss is about.

Now, like it or not Arlie, your company is going to be scrutinized heavily because of the problems with TDCB. You'll get some criticism you don't deserve and the only thing that will change that are time and many great releases. This one has virtually killed any chance that I'll buy the next .400 release without waiting for patches. Not because it's a complete disaster or because it's not a fun game, but because it didn't have basic features I'd expect from a game out of the box.

This doesn't mean I hope .400 fails. Quite the opposite. You must earn my trust before I buy your product on opening day. Hopefullly you get there someday. Understand, I'll still buy your product. You haven't lost me as a customer yet. Just don't complain about me if I write a nasty post or two criticizing a decision I find baffling.

[Bonegavel]

Originally posted by TheCount
hello im new to text sim, i have been playing madden................But now i dont know what game to get reading this makes me sick......If i have to join a club when i buy a game thats sad i have read this thread and the one on tpf......................I must say GIVE IT UP GUYS...... from wht i see as a person who is looking to see what game he should buy , i would not buy FOF or TBF because of how you guys all think the other team is doing the wrong...................sad when we cant small our on shit.................The makes of both game should ban all posr and people who get inot small minded thing as this............But then i never licked forums people try to sound like they are smart but most do not do samrt things.........I will not buy FOF or TPF if its like this..............Remember new people read forums to get a feel on the people who play this game........I would think i would want more people to get into all football text sim, would that not make it better 4 all? Or is this a club who has no need 4 new blood.......................Dont mean to piss anyone off but as my dad said "you can never make anone do right, but never let them make you do wrong"...............Any other text football sim...............lol never mine i think i know what you would say!!

I still don't understand why anyone is getting upset over some posts on any board. If you begin reading a post and it fits into your definition of "they shouldn't have posted this for reason X" material... HIT YOUR BACK BUTTON. Don't read it. Look for posts that don't raise your blood pressure. Just because a message is on a forum, doesn't mean you have to read it and it doesn't mean that it is true, accurate, or anything else.

And TheCount, your post comes across to me like you think you are smarter than everyone else. But you know what? That is my opinion and it doesn't mean shit.

If you would read this board, you would find out that we are all (few exceptions) supportive of the genre, regardless of the Production House. The great thing about this board is the diversity of opinion regarding football text sims:

Some think graphics don't belong while others do. Some think that the stats engine should be within lego-tolerance of the NFL while others don't care. Some want a deep PBP experience and others fast sim every game. Some want to focus on GMing, others want to focus on coaching. Some want to be able to play historical leagues, others want complete fiction. Some want the game to be customizable while others think the game should be static. I could go on, but I think you get the point.

The only thing we all agree on is that we want to play football text sims.

Playing either Sim (FOF or TPF) doesn't require that you read the forums. If you are looking for strategies on playing, FOFC has a strategy board, and you can sometimes find them peppered in the General Discussion.

And, if somebody doesn't buy a game because of the bickering of people that had nothing to do with making the game, then they are only doing themselves a disservice. They should stick with monopoly or chess; they are relatively bug free.

[The_herd]

Originally posted by Arles


So, another interesting question is why are some people so upset when people enjoy TPF and post what an exciting and fun game they think it is?



I don't think its that there is a problem with people posting that they enjoy the game. Its the posts they in which they decide to let everyone know about it. A thread that is nothing but bashing TPF isn't the thread you just want to go in and post, "TPF ROCKS!!! I'M PLAYING WITH NO PROBLEMS!". You need to use some common sense, or at least be ready to back up your statement with facts or someone is going to rip you apart for something like that. At the same time, its not the most intelligent thing in the world to post, ".400 SUKS, TPF SUKS." in a thread praising the work you and Joe are doing over there.

All it takes is a bit of common sense.

[Barkeep49]

I for one appreciate the tone of Arlie's comments versuses some others that have been made and its good to see that despite whatever defensiveness there might be, they are still willing to really listen and admit mistakes With this post once the basics get all added I'm suddenly a lot more likely to buy TPF, a game I was pretty excited about.

[Killebrew]

Originally posted by Arles
We don't control posts from Jason anymore than we control posts from Sky Dog (both Beta team members). The BETA team is not "controlled" by .400 in everything they say. Outside of our NDA, they are free to say what they like. Some people are excited about TPF, maybe even a little over-excited at times. But, that's going to happen with a first generation title with promise. I remember how pumped I was when FOF and Baseball Mogul first came out - why deny that to others on this title?

So, another interesting question is why are some people so upset when people enjoy TPF and post what an exciting and fun game they think it is?

People that are over zealous in their defense of a product will usually grate on the nerves of neutral onlookers who are considering a purchase as well as those users experiencing problems with the software. Granted, what some of these over zealous people say is beyond your control, but in certain cases it would be wise to attempt to put a muzzle on some posters that hurt TPF & 400 SS by posts that attempt to intimidate posters who are not praising the game. It actually looks like this has been done the last few days at the 400 forum already, as several of the worst offenders have wisely stepped away from some of these unnecessary confrontations. This same kind of scenario has taken place on the OOTP boards in the past, and I know that in some instances posters were advised by the company to take it easy in their responses to complaints.

400 is in a tough position right now but if a good % of the problems are corrected in a timely manner I believe many of the "complainers" will turn out to be strong supporters of the game, that is what happened with OOTP anyway. That means as satisfied customers begin to far outnumber the unsatisfied customers this forum complaint issue should take care of itself.

[maximus]

Originally posted by Mel Kiper's Hair
Arlie: Maybe you should have been more concerned with putting out a quality game instead of putting out a game that is ok for a 1st generation title.

I'm so sick of you using that "it's a 1st generation title" crutch. I guess you guys really had no intention of providing quality, you were completely happy with mediocrity.

How in the world can you leave out fundamental aspects of football like onside kicks and fake special teams plays, and still tell us you weren't just trying to grab our Christmas money.

This was just another money grab, just like every other of your releases.

:rolleyes:

[Buccaneer]

Originally posted by Killebrew
People that are over zealous in their defense of a product will usually grate on the nerves of neutral onlookers who are considering a purchase as well as those users experiencing problems with the software. Granted, what some of these over zealous people say is beyond your control, but in certain cases it would be wise to attempt to put a muzzle on some posters that hurt TPF & 400 SS by posts that attempt to intimidate posters who are not praising the game. It actually looks like this has been done the last few days at the 400 forum already, as several of the worst offenders have wisely stepped away from some of these unnecessary confrontations. This same kind of scenario has taken place on the OOTP boards in the past, and I know that in some instances posters were advised by the company to take it easy in their responses to complaints.

400 is in a tough position right now but if a good % of the problems are corrected in a timely manner I believe many of the "complainers" will turn out to be strong supporters of the game, that is what happened with OOTP anyway. That means as satisfied customers begin to far outnumber the unsatisfied customers this forum complaint issue should take care of itself.

Well said.

[maximus]

This is really a shame. There are some really good people on this board. There are some inmature ones too. Fact is, it wouldn't have mattered how well TPF would have done, some of you still would have put the game down. Funny thing is, I wonder how many of you actually bought the game and tried it out. My guess would be, not many.

TPF and any other sim will survive with or without the fofc "cliques" fanclub. there are more people happy with this game than you think. As a former large part of the Madden community and FBpro community I can say that. Since I was one of the ones that introduced TPF to many Madden gamers, EA has finally got some competition on the PC.

I will say this, TPF should have been released with more features like 2pt conversions, onside kicks, ect. The interface and stats needs some tweaking. I was a bit disapointed when the game first came out because it didn't have these features in the game, but .400 recovered and released a patch and are going to release another one adding even more features.


Personally, I think it will be your loss if you guys didn't give it a try. Its not as bad as you think it is. Not even close............

[Buccaneer]

Originally posted by Bonegavel
If you would read this board, you would find out that we are all (few exceptions) supportive of the genre, regardless of the Production House. The great thing about this board is the diversity of opinion regarding football text sims:

Some think graphics don't belong while others do. Some think that the stats engine should be within lego-tolerance of the NFL while others don't care. Some want a deep PBP experience and others fast sim every game. Some want to focus on GMing, others want to focus on coaching. Some want to be able to play historical leagues, others want complete fiction. Some want the game to be customizable while others think the game should be static. I could go on, but I think you get the point.

The only thing we all agree on is that we want to play football text sims.

Playing either Sim (FOF or TPF) doesn't require that you read the forums. If you are looking for strategies on playing, FOFC has a strategy board, and you can sometimes find them peppered in the General Discussion.

And, if somebody doesn't buy a game because of the bickering of people that had nothing to do with making the game, then they are only doing themselves a disservice. They should stick with monopoly or chess; they are relatively bug free.

Another well said post. Concerning the italicized part, there is a very good point to be made but I can't think of it yet.

[The Afoci]

Originally posted by maximus
I will say this, TPF should have been released with more features like 2pt conversions, onside kicks, ect.

I understand having to tweak stats, having some issues with run time errors and such, but to not include 2pt conversions, onside kicks and such is the same type of thing as excluding trades or the draft. These things are very important to the game and should be there at the start.

[Noop]

Arlie,

I would like to chime and thanks you for making a great season mode. But your offseason is giving me fits I can't get past the draft for the life of me. I am not a .400 fanboy by any means but this game is getting heavy rotation on my PC ( Although I have to keep doing season one over and over). If you fix that draft problem I posted on yall board I would be one happy camper.

:)

noop

[Ragone]

Bucc,

I believe the point is you can't please everbody...


I'm personally concerned with the lack of 2 point conversions, special team plays.. lack of play choices in general... as i do like to call my own plays (i'm a high school coach.. sue me for liking to call plays :P

I mean, i would personally think any Football sim would want to have those things in at all costs.. 1st generation or 14th generation. Right now if i was to patch together pieces to make a perfect game i'd probably slap tpf's draft and contract negotiation/player interaction into fof2k4.. that would do it for me
i'd probably never leave my computer and bulk up to look like the high school version of ralph friedgen :)

[Axxon]

.Originally posted by maximus
:rolleyes:

My god, what a keen concise and cutting observation. I've been trying to figure out some sort of reasoned response but I'm only offered a pallette of 12 responses to choose from and as you cleverly avoided using any words or meaningful statements it's really hard to come back with a resounding retort to the dreaded :rolleyes:

You're a genius. I guess you win. Ben, you better shut the board down now, we've met our match.

Sorry, but I've just tried to post two meaningful and quite long responses and had my computer and the internet screw me over twice and I'm so mad I could actually hurt someone really bad and when I can finally get online and try and compose my thoughts yet again I see that I needn't have bothered because some shitheel could just post rolleyes and consider it some kind of response.

I'm not pissed at you but I am fucking upset at anyone who has the technological ability and presumably the mental ability to form a cogent argument yet posts a fucking flippant rolleyes while someone who is actually trying to have some sort of intelligent input and meaningful dialog gets screwed over twice then gets blessed with your bullshit no thought asswipe rolleyes.

Fuck you and I hope your life is a living hell for all eternity you roll eyes motherfucker.

Sorry, but I just had to vent. I'm so pissed I can't even see straight and your irrelevant ass roll eyes post was the last fucking straw. I'll apologize later as this is harsh but fuck you, you no thought, roll eyes posting good for nothing asshole. Do you have a fucking thought or is your mouse stuck in one place and all you could do is click asshole?

Fuck you :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: [ had to cut some rolleyes because some other shit for brains had to decide that there were too many emoticons in the message. Must be mr freaking spock or somebody ]

Yes, I'll regret this later and yes I'll be sorry in a way but I'm fucking getting drunk and you know what? I'll be sorry I said it but it's something I really mean and not just or really to you but to every fool who does this crap.

Why the fuck can't you speak your thoughts like a man and why can't you use a rolleyes as emphasis like it's intended? It's not an entire thought idiot it complements a thought.

Well, I guess you'd have to have a thought in the first place....

I'm going to bed. A pox on both your houses.!!!!!!!!!!!! :(

See, a thought then an emphasis. This isn't fucking brain surgery.

Oh, and to whatever his name is aka somethingorother playa, this is exactly what Marti would have said too so get over it. :D

The last part was a joke and does make me feel better but I'm still pissed and it's at that asswipe Al Gore who invented the internet but put in no safeguards whatsoever to protect hours of labor. :D

Shit, I'd better stop. I'm beginning to have fun. Really, no offense intended unless you take offense at doing stupid shit. I don't or I'd never have posted this which is admittedly stupid shit. :D

[maximus]

Originally posted by The Afoci
I understand having to tweak stats, having some issues with run time errors and such, but to not include 2pt conversions, onside kicks and such is the same type of thing as excluding trades or the draft. These things are very important to the game and should be there at the start.

I agree Afoci. I was also disappointed that these weren't in the release. I can tell you that when this was first found out by alot of the buyers, they were not happy. However, Arlie and Joe jumped right on it and it was kinds funny because Arlie was play testing a game and he was losing. He then rallied back and scored a TD. However, he could only go for the the XP and not the 2pt conversion, so he lost the game by one point. This was good news when Joe wrote this. It served Arlie right. ;)

[maximus]

Originally posted by Axxon
.

My god, what a keen concise and cutting observation. I've been trying to figure out some sort of reasoned response but I'm only offered a pallette of 12 responses to choose from and as you cleverly avoided using any words or meaningful statements it's really hard to come back with a resounding retort to the dreaded :rolleyes:

You're a genius. I guess you win. Ben, you better shut the board down now, we've met our match.

Sorry, but I've just tried to post two meaningful and quite long responses and had my computer and the internet screw me over twice and I'm so mad I could actually hurt someone really bad and when I can finally get online and try and compose my thoughts yet again I see that I needn't have bothered because some shitheel could just post rolleyes and consider it some kind of response.

I'm not pissed at you but I am fucking upset at anyone who has the technological ability and presumably the mental ability to form a cogent argument yet posts a fucking flippant rolleyes while someone who is actually trying to have some sort of intelligent input and meaningful dialog gets screwed over twice then gets blessed with your bullshit no thought asswipe rolleyes.

Fuck you and I hope your life is a living hell for all eternity you roll eyes motherfucker.

Sorry, but I just had to vent. I'm so pissed I can't even see straight and your irrelevant ass roll eyes post was the last fucking straw. I'll apologize later as this is harsh but fuck you, you no thought, roll eyes posting good for nothing asshole. Do you have a fucking thought or is your mouse stuck in one place and all you could do is click asshole?

Fuck you :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: [ had to cut some rolleyes because some other shit for brains had to decide that there were too many emoticons in the message. Must be mr freaking spock or somebody ]

Yes, I'll regret this later and yes I'll be sorry in a way but I'm fucking getting drunk and you know what? I'll be sorry I said it but it's something I really mean and not just or really to you but to every fool who does this crap.

Why the fuck can't you speak your thoughts like a man and why can't you use a rolleyes as emphasis like it's intended? It's not an entire thought idiot it complements a thought.

Well, I guess you'd have to have a thought in the first place....

I'm going to bed. A pox on both your houses.!!!!!!!!!!!! :(

See, a thought then an emphasis. This isn't fucking brain surgery.

Oh, and to whatever his name is aka somethingorother playa, this is exactly what Marti would have said too so get over it. :D

The last part was a joke and does make me feel better but I'm still pissed and it's at that asswipe Al Gore who invented the internet but put in no safeguards whatsoever to protect hours of labor. :D

Shit, I'd better stop. I'm beginning to have fun. Really, no offense intended unless you take offense at doing stupid shit. I don't or I'd never have posted this which is admittedly stupid shit. :D

:rolleyes:

[Axxon]

Heh, I like you maximus, no matter what anybody says about you. :)

[illinifan999]

Fucking elitists

[Axxon]

Kirby Puckett????

[maximus]

Originally posted by Mel Kiper's Hair

I'm so sick of you using that "it's a 1st generation title" crutch. I guess you guys really had no intention of providing quality, you were completely happy with mediocrity.

...... and still tell us you weren't just trying to grab our Christmas money.

This was just another money grab, just like every other of your releases.

Axxon, my roll eyes was towards this. These words are just plain dumb.

"Crutch" & "just trying to grab our Christmas money." - Something a punk kid would say. These are worthless insults. However, Axxon, you wouldn't think that, now would you.

[maximus]

Originally posted by Axxon
Heh, I like you maximus, no matter what anybody says about you. :)

I like you too. :)

[Axxon]

Hey, I've supported TPF and many other "first generation" games so yes, I'd consider them worthless insults but at least they're in words not simply short hand emoticons. ;)

[JonInMiddleGA]

I think Arlie's post has helped me put my finger on something that bothers me -- they seem to have things out of sequence.

Currently, there's hype followed by a good product (several patches down the line)

That's backwards IMO.

Maybe this handy checklist will help:

1)Get the simple stuff right first.
2)Then add the bells & whistles, making sure they work.
3)Then hype the product to the moon and back.

Seems to me that might cut down on the negative reactions quite a bit.

[Buccaneer]

Originally posted by Ragone
Right now if i was to patch together pieces to make a perfect game i'd probably slap tpf's draft and contract negotiation/player interaction into fof2k4..

I would go along with that. I don't play FOF because the level of immersion for me is about zero, thus it becomes a boring simulation. However, I recognize the strength of the "engine" and being a GM-level player, I want what TPF appears to present in the draft, negotiations, free agenting and other interactive feedbacks. With those things being more important to me, I won't really care how it comes up with a 24-10 win or a 10-6 season, as long as it is reasonable.

[maximus]

Originally posted by Buccaneer
I would go along with that. I don't play FOF because the level of immersion for me is about zero, thus it becomes a boring simulation.

I wouldn't say that around here. :)

[TheCount]

I like the underdog so i will play TPF, its looks like FOF is so good it cant get any better..........Thanks guys you helped alot

[Axxon]

Originally posted by Buccaneer
I would go along with that. I don't play FOF because the level of immersion for me is about zero, thus it becomes a boring simulation. However, I recognize the strength of the "engine" and being a GM-level player, I want what TPF appears to present in the draft, negotiations, free agenting and other interactive feedbacks. With those things being more important to me, I won't really care how it comes up with a 24-10 win or a 10-6 season, as long as it is reasonable.

I posted that to me FOF2k4 is the better business sim and TPF was the better football sim. I know that you haven't played TPF but does the part about FOF hit home to you??

I love good business sims so I love the game but TPF is far more immersive as a football sim even as a first generation to me.

[sabotai]

Originally posted by JonInMiddleGA
Maybe this handy checklist will help:

1)Get the simple stuff right first.
2)Then add the bells & whistles, making sure they work.
3)Then hype the product to the moon and back.

Seems to me that might cut down on the negative reactions quite a bit.

For the first time EVER in record history, me and Jon are in complete agreement. (*Checks to see if frogs are falling from the sky*)

[Axxon]

Originally posted by sabotai
For the first time EVER in record history, me and Jon are in complete agreement. (*Checks to see if frogs are falling from the sky*)

I really hope that frogs falling is a localized New Jersey thing as I've never really thought much less worried about them falling from the sky. :)

[HornedFrog Purple]

Believe me if I was falling from the sky you'd hear it after pigging out yesterday.

[MizzouRah]

Killebrew, nice post.


Originally posted by Arles
We don't control posts from Jason anymore than we control posts from Sky Dog (both Beta team members). The BETA team is not "controlled" by .400 in everything they say. Outside of our NDA, they are free to say what they like. Some people are excited about TPF, maybe even a little over-excited at times. But, that's going to happen with a first generation title with promise. I remember how pumped I was when FOF and Baseball Mogul first came out - why deny that to others on this title?

So, another interesting question is why are some people so upset when people enjoy TPF and post what an exciting and fun game they think it is?

Arlie

Maybe it's my fault. I look at beta testers through different eyes than that of a general forum member. I certainly don't want to hear bashing about another game I enjoy. Preaching great things about something you have been part of is one thing, but why things like "Is this better than FOF?" (I know those are not his exact words, but if you read it, you get the picture.) I look to you guys for insight on what TPF does that's good or different from most sims....

I've never bashed TPF, so I hope you don't get that impression. I bought TDCB, and I plan on getting TPF (I am a graphics nut - 7 logo packs for FOF? :)) later down the road, just like TDCB.

I think it's calming down on both forums and it's good to see people frequenting both places..


Todd

[Arles]

Originally posted by Killebrew
Granted, what some of these over zealous people say is beyond your control, but in certain cases it would be wise to attempt to put a muzzle on some posters that hurt TPF & 400 SS by posts that attempt to intimidate posters who are not praising the game. It actually looks like this has been done the last few days at the 400 forum already, as several of the worst offenders have wisely stepped away from some of these unnecessary confrontations. This same kind of scenario has taken place on the OOTP boards in the past, and I know that in some instances posters were advised by the company to take it easy in their responses to complaints.

400 is in a tough position right now but if a good % of the problems are corrected in a timely manner I believe many of the "complainers" will turn out to be strong supporters of the game, that is what happened with OOTP anyway. That means as satisfied customers begin to far outnumber the unsatisfied customers this forum complaint issue should take care of itself.
I think this is very well put. If we censor some of the overzealous people - there's an outcry that .400 sensors their board when any criticism occurs (see threads three weeks ago for this). If we don't sensor, then numerous flame fests happen from time to time and they often denegrate into personal attack - in which case we get asked why we didn't shut post X or Y down.

Our stance is that praise or criticism, when done in good taste, is fine. But, once people start stepping over the line, it becomes counterproductive and people end up saying things they regret later. I guess, in that regard, we are a little like Ben with FOF.

[Noop]

Arlie,

I would like to chime and thanks you for making a great season mode. But your offseason is giving me fits I can't get past the draft for the life of me. I am not a .400 fanboy by any means but this game is getting heavy rotation on my PC ( Although I have to keep doing season one over and over). If you fix that draft problem I posted on yall board I would be one happy camper.



noop

[HornedFrog Purple]

Ok here is the deal.

There were a lot of people on the fence with FOF5 after FOF4. After some feedback started coming in, people who were on the fence either took a chance and tried it or didnt.

My main problem with .400ss thus far isn't the sims themselves, it is the state in which they are first released. Once Tournament Dreams was fixed up, it turned out to be a fun game for me. But I got burned out waiting for it to be fixed up enough that I would be satisfied.

This is why I am taking the approach with TPF that I am.

Now I have read that the majority of people who bought this game after a patch are not having many crashes. That is good.

My other smaller problem with .400ss is simply an advertising problem. If you are going to tell me what made the cut, then you should also tell me what didn't if it is important to the foundation of the actual sim itself.

If I assume that the sim engine reflects the NFL from 2000-2003 (as advertised), then shouldn't I assume that the basic rules to produce said results are in the engine? Am I way off base here?

I am also a little puzzled at substitutions. Individual substitutions are in my mind very important for specific situations. To me, an entire second team subbing is a bandaid. The idea that subbing was not in there to begin with is puzzling to me. Why? Because this sim has been in development for a long long time.

Now these are things that are important to me and that is why I will hold off until said things are introduced or fixed.

-fanboy

[Arles]

Originally posted by JonInMiddleGA
I think Arlie's post has helped me put my finger on something that bothers me -- they seem to have things out of sequence.

Currently, there's hype followed by a good product (several patches down the line)

That's backwards IMO.

Maybe this handy checklist will help:

1)Get the simple stuff right first.
2)Then add the bells & whistles, making sure they work.
3)Then hype the product to the moon and back.

Seems to me that might cut down on the negative reactions quite a bit.

It doesn't matter. If we would have released a game without RFA tags, no play calling, a limited offseason and maybe no "enhanced draft option" - gues what? People would have still provided a negative reaction because some of those "much needed" features are not in the game. Look at the 2 point conversions. They occur in maybe 15-20% of all NFL games. They weren't even in the NFL till the mid-90s. Yet, if you read the comments on these not being in the game - you see people comparing them to 3-pointers (10-15 a game) and Extra Points (5-6 a game) in importance. Now, I think we can all agree that 2-point conversions should be in the game and I will be adding them into TPF next week. But, you see the level of hyperbole you get on something not in the game. Who's to say that same level wouldn't be there if I cut a complicated FA system or didn't allow playcalling to have a more "manageable" first release.

The point is you can't win on this issue with a new release. Markus and Jim took their lumps on their first releases for not having thing done perfectly, and I am certainly prepared to take mine on TPF. But, the fact that I was as ambitious in feature sets means I can fix most of the concerns (2-points, Onside kicks, some stat issues on RB catches) fairly easily in a patch.

If I would have taken the "give them 40% of what they want but make sure it's perfect" -

A) It wouldn't have been perfect. There's no way on a first release you can figure ever possible error that will occur with 2 developers and 8-10 BETA guys.
B) When people made good points on needed features (ie, more indepth FA or better draft/trade AI), I would have been unable to add them and made them wait until 2004 for a new version and had them fork over another $35.

So, my choice was to do as best I can with the initial release - but make the game flexibile enough to be changed when fans have good ideas. I have an entirely editable MS Access-Style DB that is not password protected and accessible by any TPF player. In this DB every player stat, draft pick, coach/assistant coach stat, and league history information for any year is available. Retired playes can be linked and you can get a year-by-year history for any player ever to play the game. I did this because I knew people would have good ideas for possible mods and wanted the game to be accessible.

In the end, there's no "right way" to do a first release game, but there are plenty of ways that will garner criticism. So, I did in a way that I thought would end up with a fan getting the most value for their $35 spent.

Arlie

[HornedFrog Purple]

It doesn't matter. If we would have released a game without RFA tags, no play calling, a limited offseason and maybe no "enhanced draft option" - gues what? People would have still provided a negative reaction because some of those "much needed" features are not in the game. Look at the 2 point conversions. They occur in maybe 15-20% of all NFL games. They weren't even in the NFL till the mid-90s. Yet, if you read the comments on these not being in the game - you see people comparing them to 3-pointers (10-15 a game) and Extra Points (5-6 a game) in importance. Now, I think we can all agree that 2-point conversions should be in the game and I will be adding them into TPF next week. But, you see the level of hyperbole you get on something not in the game. Who's to say that same level wouldn't be there if I cut a complicated FA system or didn't allow playcalling to have a more "manageable" first release.

The point is you can't win on this issue with a new release.

Sure you can. Simply say they are not in the sim initially but are coming. Then people know what to expect beforehand. I don't think that is an unrealistic approach.

[Arles]

Name one feature on our website the day of the release that was not in the game? There isn't one. Now, we didn't go through and list every possible thing someone would want that didn't make the cut. The point is that not being able to sub didn't bother me or the BETA team. With the detailed level of the depth chart, we didn't see the need for the added complexity in the first version. If you want a certain RB on third down, a TE on passing downs, a DE on passing downs, a runner on short yardage, a LB in the nickel and all the "situational" spots in the game - set it in the depth chart. It's very rare in any non-blowout NFL game where a team will simply pull a healthy player from the game. Therefore, we didn't see it as a primary feature. Now, once people brought up the idea of playing their young guys in a blowout, I decided to allow a "rest starters" option that would allow that.

The 2-point conversions and onside kicks is an issue I am not going to defend. I agree with the fans on this and that's why it will be in a patch next week. But, I think that with the level of depth charts in TPF, that having individual game substitutions is not a "must-have" for most TPF fans.

[HornedFrog Purple]

dola

Just as an example, it was announced that customizable league sizes didn't make the cut. The initial reaction was at first disappointment but when announced it was going to be worked on and introduced people generally said "ok cool" over there.

The above is a superficial (in my opinion of course) feature and not one that would sway my decision either way. The ones I mentioned above in my mind have a more direct impact on the focus of the sim itself. Maybe no one else cares about those, I don't know, I do not think for them.

That is where I personally am coming from.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Originally posted by Arles
Name one feature on our website the day of the release that was not in the game? There isn't one. Now, we didn't go through and list every possible thing someone would want that didn't make the cut. The point is that not being able to sub didn't bother me or the BETA team. With the detailed level of the depth chart, we didn't see the need for the added complexity in the first version. If you want a certain RB on third down, a TE on passing downs, a DE on passing downs, a runner on short yardage, a LB in the nickel and all the "situational" spots in the game - set it in the depth chart. It's very rare in any non-blowout NFL game where a team will simply pull a healthy player from the game. Therefore, we didn't see it as a primary feature. Now, once people brought up the idea of playing their young guys in a blowout, I decided to allow a "rest starters" option that would allow that.

The 2-point conversions and onside kicks is an issue I am not going to defend. I agree with the fans on this and that's why it will be in a patch next week. But, I think that with the level of depth charts in TPF, that having individual game substitutions is not a "must-have" for most TPF fans.

Fair enough. This is just a difference in opinion of intregal sim elements in which I have absolutely no desire to get in a spat over. In the end, your opinion is the one that matters with the product.

As I said above, I have not purchased the game yet(!!) and have stated my reasons why above. I am just basing this on what has been reported by different people on different boards. Perhaps I am being misled.

Edit: The reason why substitutions was a concern to me was because it was previously stated that playing time was a part of a player's development. If fatigue is a factor and allows the substitution of 2nd stringers in individual situations during the sim of the game, then I am way off-base. I have just not seen anyone comment on it.

[Arles]

What I would recommend is posting your ideas on the forum. We look at all ideas and will do what we can to get as many of them in the game as possible. But, in the end, we have to "cut-off" the scope of the game. Otherwise, it will never be completed.

[G-Man]

I am sorely dissappointed with .400 Arles. I will still stay with the game. As I said in one of my threads that has seemingly vanished, I do enjoy the game. I was just concerned that the 2-point conversion and onside kicks were not included in the initial release and also not included in the first patch. And as is stated here the public was not even informed of this. I had a few other concerns (where are the total scoring leader stats for league and teams and why no notification of who has clinched a playoff spot and a standing for wildcard competition?).

I was very dissappointed with TDCB. I stayed with it through many patches but finally gave up before the final patch. Perhaps I will go back and try it before moving on to FastBreak's version. I do hope that .400 is successful with a fabulous football game and in all it's sports sims, for then won't we all benefit? I do support you guys, but I still remain skeptical with all I have seen so far. If I were to place a grade on your performance to date it would be somewhere in the "C" range. I hope that my satisfaction as a customer is important too you. Am I being unreasonable?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally posted by Arles ... and I will be adding them into TPF next week.

So ... having the 2 pts conversion in is, give or take, a week's worth of work (maximum, since there's other stuff going on too).

Maybe you didn't anticipate the level of negative reaction to the missing 2 pt conversion.

If not, I'd say you badly misestimated the audience.

If so, then why not put it in before release instead of after? Obviously, given the quick patch fix, it's not like we're talking a month here.

I honestly believe that anyone even remotely familiar with the audience the game will attract could have predicted the reaction to the omission.

Instead, for whatever reason, there's yet another reason to question first release's from .400.

As I've said in the past, TPF held very limited interest for me from the get-go, I'm pretty well full up on NFL sims. But my concerns extend to other future products in the group who I hope will be able to learn from the experiences of TPF et al.

[Ragone]

Something that also bothers me...

Where was the beta team at on these issues.. i mean i understand cutting out some of the fluff that just wasn't working thats fine..

But, if i was to beta test the game calling portion of the game.. and i didn't have 2 point conversions and a more diverse variety of plays+fake special teams plays and even onside kicks? well.. i'd probably make damn sure my voice was heard that stuff needs to be in a "accurate simulation of today's pro football"

But thats just me, I Like the start tpf has made, and they can keep my money for the promise of a future great game (i'm in no real hurry).. all these people scrambling and crying for a refund don't recognize the future potential that could be wasted if 400 studios says "why even freaking bother?" due to bad sales high returns.. I'm not saying you all should Buy tpf now, i'd say wait and see how the first few patchs go and add.. but if they right the ship and make this the game it could be.. It's well worth the money

[McSweeny]

Originally posted by Ragone
Something that also bothers me...

But thats just me, I Like the start tpf has made, and they can keep my money for the promise of a future great game (i'm in no real hurry).. all these people scrambling and crying for a refund don't recognize the future potential that could be wasted if 400 studios says "why even freaking bother?" due to bad sales high returns.. I'm not saying you all should Buy tpf now, i'd say wait and see how the first few patchs go and add.. but if they right the ship and make this the game it could be.. It's well worth the money

so you're saying that we should just throw money at TPF? Even though it's missing parts that many people consider vital? Throw money at them because it's a first generation title? Throw money at them because they have some good ideas and someday it "might" be a great game? If that's the case, give me some money too. I can make some pretty amazing promises too

[Arles]

The reason adding both onside kicks and two-point conversions won't take long is because the code for both is currently in the game. For some reason, the options were not enabled for user and/or AI use in playcalling. Call it a "gaff" on my part and one that have openly taken the heat for. I was thinking of trying to just enable them for the 1.1 update, but decided to wait and do some additional testing over the weekend to make sure it's stable and the AI is good for both.

[MizzouRah]

But thats just me, I Like the start tpf has made, and they can keep my money for the promise of a future great game (i'm in no real hurry).. all these people scrambling and crying for a refund don't recognize the future potential that could be wasted if 400 studios says "why even freaking bother?" due to bad sales high returns.. I'm not saying you all should Buy tpf now, i'd say wait and see how the first few patchs go and add.. but if they right the ship and make this the game it could be.. It's well worth the money



You are kidding, right?


Todd

[Ragone]

note i said don't throw money at them.. wait on the patches and see if it develops.. its a personal opinion with some further development tpf could be the best.. so it keeps MY money

yikes.. retract claws :)

[Ragone]

Also if i may.. lemme remind you of things in the past people have "thrown" money at that turned out ok..

Cars..
Microsoft
Those damn flying machines
Mcdonalds franchises (heh)

[McSweeny]

Originally posted by Ragone
Also if i may.. lemme remind you of things in the past people have "thrown" money at that turned out ok..

Cars..
Microsoft
Those damn flying machines
Mcdonalds franchises (heh)

i say let other's throw their money at TPF. If it's any good down the road then i'll look into getting it :D

[MizzouRah]

I didn't mean to sound like a jerk, I just thought this quote, "and they can keep my money for the promise of a future great game", sounded a little off base.

:)


I'm not arguing any points about the game, I think it'll be good sometime down the road and I'm anxious to really get into yet.



Todd

[Ragone]

Maybe thrown money was a poor given image of what i was trying to convey.. I did say wait for the patches and see if things get revamped.. but like i told mizzou in a pm...

Should we really be waiting on revamps on a newly released game?

[Buccaneer]

Sigh. I look forward to the day when everyone settles down and have some gamers enjoy playing TPF, some enjoy playing FOF, some enjoy playing CM, OOTP, or whatever game anyone can enjoy without worrying what others think or that you love a game they hate (and vice versa).

[RawIsDan]

Originally posted by Buccaneer
Sigh. I look forward to the day when everyone settles down and have some gamers enjoy playing TPF, some enjoy playing FOF, some enjoy playing CM, OOTP, or whatever game anyone can enjoy without worrying what others think or that you love a game they hate (and vice versa).

Buc has a dream ! :D

[Ragone]

rutro bucc.. better look out for Jason K on the grassy noll :)

[Subby]

If you bar maximus from posting anything on this board about TPF or in a thread about TPF, I can almost guarantee the TPF DEFCON will go down a few notches...

[JimboJ]

Arlie, I just want to say thanks for the quick response in fixing the known bugs so quickly. I bought the game as soon as it was released, and then requested a refund as soon as I found out about the missing 2 point conversions and onside kicks. Now that you are adding them, I am thinking about purchasing again.

Hang in there and don't get discouraged - this game has a lot of potential.

[TroyF]

Originally posted by Arles
Name one feature on our website the day of the release that was not in the game? There isn't one.

Now I don't want to go beat on a dead horse. It's the holiday season and I really hope .400 studios, all of its developers and everyone enjoying the game have nothing but success.

Don't give me that crap about one feature that was missing that wasn't advertised.

Two point conversions and onside kicks should be an expected part of any football release. Just tell me what you had already told me "I should have had them in, I didn't, it'll be fixed" instead of giving me that line of crap, OK Arlie?

If .400 ever gets to the point where I have to read every line of the website for a line that says "correct scoring rules are followed," you can forget any future business from me ever again.

[EagleFan]

Originally posted by Subby
If you bar maximus from posting anything on this board about TPF or in a thread about TPF, I can almost guarantee the TPF DEFCON will go down a few notches...

Amen to that!!!