quinn snyder needs to be fired too

[Ragone]

Missouris latest loss (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=233640142)

[kcchief19]

I think he just got himself on the hot seat. It's clear that he and Mike Alden don't get along, and I don't think the president of the university is a big fan either.

The effort the team has put out so far this season has been horrible. This team is a mess defensively and there is no structure and discipline on offense. Paulding is supposed to be our best defender and he made so many bonehead plays on D tonight that I lost track.

Quin's a great recruiter, but that's it. He may be have a $50 hair cut, but it's on a 50 cent head.

[Glengoyne]

I have always been a Snyder fan, but all of those early exits from the tournament are adding up. Now a loss to Belmont? Hmm maybe it's not Snyder after all...Maybe Belmont is a team to watch?

[kcchief19]

No, it's not Belmont. Quin's also made other basketball outpost like Oakland (Mich.) and NC-Greensboro look like Final Four teams, and made Memphis look like the '76 Hoosiers.

[Chief Rum]

I hate to say it, but Snyder sounds like Lavin, from what you guys are saying. Ouch.

Snyder's name was thrown out there by hopeful UCLA fans before we got Howland. I thought then that he would have been a horrible choice, and I still feel that way. Thank God our AD didn't go that way.

CR

[primelord]

Originally posted by Glengoyne
I have always been a Snyder fan, but all of those early exits from the tournament are adding up. Now a loss to Belmont? Hmm maybe it's not Snyder after all...Maybe Belmont is a team to watch?

What early exits? Three years ago they ran into Duke in the 2nd round. A game no one thought they could win, but they played very well in and were even with Duke as late as 4 minutes left in the game. Two years ago they went to the elite 8. And last year they lost in the 2nd round again, but to a very tough Marquette team that made it to the final 4.

Missouri's performance in the tournament has not been the issue. If anything Missouri is just following the pattern they have in the past with Quinn. They always struggle out of the gate. Then play great basketbal down the stretch and are usually at the top of their game by tournament time.

I am not saying the early losses aren't a problem. But I certainly don't think you can say ealry tournamnet exits are adding up.

[Ksyrup]

Just stay away from Leonard Hamilton. He's ours.

At least until we hit mid-February.

[MizzouRah]

Fired? Nah.... I still think Mizzou will get back into form, if not... well, then maybe.


Todd

[Samdari]

Originally posted by primelord
They always struggle out of the gate. Then play great basketbal down the stretch and are usually at the top of their game by tournament time.

They have started the last two years 8-0 and 10-1, following those up with 14-11 and 11-9 records. Their records in the last 10 games of those years are 6-4 and 5-5. Their conference records those two years were 8-7 and 9-7. If, by 'great basketball' you mean 'just above .500' you would be correct.

They actually normally open great and play mediocre when faced with anything resembling competition.

Their tournament exits are no earlier than expected, given that they have not been seeded in the top 16 in any of those years. But it is playing below expectations (just over 500 against real competition) that has earned them seeds that were below preseason expectations. In each of those years, Mizzou was expected to be a top 16 team before the season, but failed to earn a seed corresponding to that in each year.

[MizzouRah]

Damn it Samdari, quit posting facts like that. Now I see that losing Quinn isn't a big deal. :)

Actually, I thought Mizzou has always played themselves out of games early on. For some reason, they like coming back from 10+ down each game.


Todd

[primelord]

You are right. They do normally paste the cup cakes early in the season. (Something they haven't been able to do this year which I will have to agree is a concern.) To be honest I had forgotten about their quick starts because the games were for the most part against very lesser opponents.

So to revise my statements they tend to struggle early against solid opponenets. Specifically in conference opponents. However I stand by my statement that they tend to play great basketball down the stretch and into the tournament.

Lets look at last year as an example. Yes they were 6-4 in their final 10 games. However 2 of those 4 losses were against Kansas and Oklahoma. And both losses were by 5 points or less. They did have two let down games against Iowa State and Colorado. However in that same stretch they also had wins over Kansas, Oklahoma, and Oklahoma State. And they were without question playing their best basketball of the year at that point.

The year before is not as good over the final ten games however. They had a very good run in the Big XII championship tournament including a 3 point loss to Kansas. And then had an excellent run through the tournament.

So the pattern is still there. They tend to struggle early (although I admit even earlier than usual this year.) And are generally playing their best basketball as they enter the tournament. And while they may not have made it as far in the tournaments as their pre-season rankings might have suggested they would. Three straihgt years they have been knocked off by a team that made it to the final 4. Hardly something to be ashamed about.

[Samdari]

I would never suggest that Mizzou's performance the past few years is something to be ashamed of. I would suggest that it has been below their capabilities, as your examples themselves illustrate.

Beating three very good teams and losing to two that are inferior does not suggest to me "playing great basketball down the stretch" but rather illustrates the inconsistency that would be driving me batty were I a fan.

Its also a perception issue. You seem to have gotten the perception that they play great basketball down the stretch. I have seen them attain lofty (over) rankings against patsies and be mediocre down the stretch. To each his own I suppose.

[primelord]

I agree it is a perception issue. The teams inconsistency has been maddening over the past few years, but I have felt each year going into the tournament that the Tigers were ready to play and they generally played up to their potential in each one.

I guess it also depends on what you consider down the stretch. As their good runs through the big Xii tournamnets and NCAA tournament stick out in my mind more than their final regular season games (in which they dropped some games to teams they shouldn't have).

So I guess my point was despite some of their regular season woes when ti was all said and done I have thought each of the last 3 years MIssouri finished the seaon right where they should have. Perhaps their lower seed in the tournament caused them to go out in a round earlier than they would have otherwise, but in each year I thought they lost in the tournament to the better team, but played each of those teams tough through the whole game. As you said to each his own. :)

[Glengoyne]

Originally posted by Chief Rum
I hate to say it, but Snyder sounds like Lavin, from what you guys are saying. Ouch.

CR

I don't know I mean I am pretty sure that some players improved under Snyder's tuteledge. There aren't a lot that can say Steve Lavin gave me the tools to raise my game to the next level.

[the_meanstrosity]

Primelord,

What you don't take into account is talent. And that's something Quin has a LOT OF yet seems to do little with. We all know Quin can recruit (legally, illegally, whatever). The problem has been turning the recruits into a cohesive team with a semblance of a game plan. He's the Mack Brown of Big 12 basketball.

You look at coaches like Sutton, Barnes, and Sampson who don't always have a lot of talent, but their teams play to their strengths. I still remember that squad of Keyon Dooling, Clarence Gilbert, and Jaron Rush in 1999 that went 18-13. The 2001 team that had Rush, Paulding, Johnson, and Gilbert but went 9-7 in the Big 12 conference.

The fact is, Missouri's talent is MUCH better than the team. I know most of my Tiger friends and family are at wit's end with Snyder. They knew coming in he wasn't the best bench coach available having been an assistant. But he just doesn't seem to be getting any better. And now with the NCAA investigation, they are at the brink.

I'll say this...so long as Laurie is calling the shots for MU basketball...Quin isn't going anywhere. That's a scary thought when one booster has that much power.

[primelord]

I agree with you. I was really only meaning to argue that Missouri hadn't been exiting the tournament early under Quinn. Atleast no early than would be expected. However it started to sound like I was defending Quinn which wasn't whatI meant to do.

To be honest I am still on the fence about Snyder. There is no question Missouri is not getting anywhere near the amount of production it should be given their talent. However the fact that they do seem to get things together come tournament time should hold some weight I think.

I just keep thinking of all the Norm Stewart teams that would just come out blazing in the regular season only to be dispatched of in the first round of the tournament. Snyder just seems to get his team to peak when it matters most. However starting as an 8 or 9 seed every year doesn't give you much of a chance to make the final 4 I agree.

[the_meanstrosity]

Prime,

I'm on the fence as well. If he gets hit with NCAA sanctions then I think he has to go. If he doesn't then I think you have to keep him or else these last few years of paying him to learn his trade have been a waste.

As for the tournament, Quin's teams play better when their back is against the wall for some reason. But sadly, it's the failures in conference play that puts them with their back against the wall. If they take care of business in the conference like they should, Missouri would go in as a 1-4 seed. Instead they are getting tougher seeds and bowing out early as expected.

What you don't want to do is turn it into the Ricardo Patton fiasco. Patton had some early successes in recruiting. But he never really did a lot with that talent. He continues to have a job even though he's really not a Big 12 caliber basketball coach. I am always amazed when teams don't even attempt to get a guy like Calipari or Pitino when they were available.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I think there may be some selling short of Belmont taking place here.

They certainly aren't Duke but considering:
-- a 76-58 drubbing of a decent Georgia State on the road
-- and a narrow 89-83 loss at Memphis

this isn't like losing to a Division III team either.

[MrBug708]

Originally posted by Glengoyne
I don't know I mean I am pretty sure that some players improved under Snyder's tuteledge. There aren't a lot that can say Steve Lavin gave me the tools to raise my game to the next level.

Earl Watson is the only name I Can think of

[the_meanstrosity]

Jon,

It's not just Belmont. Snyder has made a career of underachieving with top 10 talent. He does a great job in recruiting, only to do a poor job of putting an offense or a defense on the floor.

Again, think the Mack Brown of Big 12 basketball. The guy has done less with more. Missouri has to hope Snyder can become a competent bench coach in the next few years because he certainly has the talent in place.

[kcchief19]

The label on Quin when he came to Missouri was that he was a great recruiter who needed to learn the Xs and Os. It was the belief that he would learn that on the job. Clearly he hasn't.

If Quin stays, I'd like to see one of the assistants canned -- probably Tony Harvey, since he seems to have caused the most problems with RickyGate -- and replaced with an older, more mature coach who can maybe help rein Quin in and even mentor him a little. I think the program could use an infusion of maturity.

'Strosity, amazingly enough I agree with you on almost everything you said, but I think you grossly overestimate Bill Laurie's "influence" on the program. True, he and Alden had a pissing match about the money for the arena, but that deal is done and Laurie doesn't have that leverage any more. Sure, he'll still get to slap a name on the arena, but he has nothing left to dangle over the university. Laurie got forced into making the donation anyway. Multiple sources have told me that his wife's grandmother (that would be Sam Walton's widow) was so embarrassed by Bill jerking the university around that she was going to make the donation if he didn't. Bill didn't want to get shown up and lose the name rights, so got back in.

The booster with the power right now is Stan Kroenke. Josh's "roommates" are Paulding and Johnson -- and don't you know that Stan helps make sure that his son has a nice place to live and has plenty of "pocket money" to pay for "stuff" for his "friends." Good grief -- Josh is the one who took Larry Eustachy to the kegger. :)

[the_meanstrosity]

kcchief,

The Kroenke's have most of their money tied into the football program. I know Josh plays basketball, but Laurie has been the biggest contributor to basketball while Kroenke contributes to football. And if you think about it...that's probably the "best" way until Josh is off the basketball team. The Kroenke's have tried their hardest to show that Josh didn't "buy" his way onto the team.

As for Laurie, he'll still have plenty of pull after the arena. He was the one who wanted Snyder in the first place. He was the one who wanted Norm Stewart gone as well without a "farewell tour". He still gives the largest donation to Missouri basketball. And he's got enough money to buy out Alden's contract if he wanted to which makes it tough for Mike to disagree. Sadly, that's the way athletic departments are run today. Nebraska found that out with the Solich firing.

I agree wholeheartedly with the veteran assistant idea. I had that exact same thought. I know Sundvold is at Iowa State still, I believe. He would be a good option to come back. He was the head coach at UMKC and did some good things there plus he's a former player for Norm. Kim Anderson is still around I believe...another former Norm assistant. As much as people disliked Norm's tourney success, he put together some awfully good teams with average talent.

[Buccaneer]

Go ORANGE!

[Chubby]

SU smoked em tonight :) woulda been even worse if we hadn't gone into a shell midway through the 2nd half just to kill some clock too

[Blade6119]

As long as illinifan stays out of this thread im happy.

[MizzouRah]

Unreal, how fun it is in St. Louis this week!

You know, there's not much to look foward to from my teams....


Todd

[IMetTrentGreen]

wow, faster that usual this year

[WSUCougar]

Unreal, how fun it is in St. Louis this week!

You know, there's not much to look foward to from my teams....
Pitchers and catchers report pretty soon...

[Ragone]

Mizzou.. did st louis sports media blame Don Denkinger for the Rams loss on saturday? just curious really :)

[mckerney]

He's not as bad as Dan Monson. With the exception of Dusty Rychart who was over achieving long before Monson got to Minnesota, no one has gotten better while Monson has been here. This is a team that doesn't play defense, just lost to Penn State, and almost lost to Wofford and Princeton.

[MizzouRah]

Pitchers and catchers report pretty soon...
Yeah? ...and that means what for the Cardinals? Ha! Houston and Chicago are going to laugh at us this year. I think the Cubs will get Maddox as well, just to rub it in our faces.


Todd

[MizzouRah]

Mizzou.. did st louis sports media blame Don Denkinger for the Rams loss on saturday? just curious really :)

:)

[MrBug708]

Quinn Lavin it looks like

[MrIllini]

Mizzou.. did st louis sports media blame Don Denkinger for the Rams loss on saturday? just curious really :)

How many buckets of tears did Vermeil cry after Peyton picked the Chiefs apart? just curious... ;)