NFL Expansion: Toronto

[Karim]

Is the NFL thinking of expansion any time soon?

I know the first destination would be Los Angeles, but would the NFL ever consider Toronto? Outside of NY, LA and Chicago, Toronto is the largest city in North America and filling the SkyDome wouldn't be a problem.

But the SkyDome itself, might be the problem. I can't really understand why. I remember when the NFL was looking at Toronto and Mexico City (I think there were exhibition games or something), John Madden was in Toronto saying the dome is a beautiful facility but later in the papers, there was a report that the NFL thought it was sub-standard.

The CFL Toronto team would have to cease to exist, but it's not like anyone cares about them anyway. I'm not sure about the legalities but the new ownership might have to pay the CFL money or something.

The expansion fee would be a big hurdle probably more than anything else as you're looking at around $1.2-1.5 billion CDN.

Just dreaming of seeing NFL football with a team I actually can cheer for...

[Easy Mac]

I hope not, I don't want us to mix our balls with yours.

[Noble_Platypus]

I think with the recent realignment and the fact there are an even amount of teams that they wont be looking to add teams anytime soon.

[TLK]

I don't see this happening anytime soon....

[Miller Time]

NFL football would work in Toronto and the league knows it. The only problem is there are a lot of fans in Ontario who travel down to see the Bills play, so the league thinks it would hurt the Bills too much, at least that is my opinion. The Skydome isn't big enough for an NFL team, at least not by today's standards. Coming from Ottawa, it would be cool for an NFL team to be in Canada, even if I have to go slumming in Toronto :D

[hukarez]

How is the CFL doing up there anyways? I never really heard much about that league, but was curious of it's popularity in Cananda...

[TLK]

They have bigger balls.... :)

[Booj]

How is the CFL doing up there anyways? I never really heard much about that league, but was curious of it's popularity in Cananda...

The CFL is doing very well. Toronto, whose CFL team is actually suffering has new local owners, so maybe they will boost up their popularity, but I think, on a whole the CFL is doing very well.

[hukarez]

The CFL is doing very well. Toronto, whose CFL team is actually suffering has new local owners, so maybe they will boost up their popularity, but I think, on a whole the CFL is doing very well.
Ah! Well then, I don't really think it'd be plausible for the NFL to have an expansion team in Canada, seeing as the CFL is doing well, no?

Speaking of which; do they have their own website? I've been meaning to figure out the little nuances between CFL and NFL rules and the like.

[Booj]

Ah! Well then, I don't really think it'd be plausible for the NFL to have an expansion team in Canada, seeing as the CFL is doing well, no?

Well, Toronto sees themselves as a different market, and they'll go for the NFL and ignore the CFL if they ever do expand there-- IMHO.


Speaking of which; do they have their own website? I've been meaning to figure out the little nuances between CFL and NFL rules and the like.

Yes they do. (http://www.cfl.ca/CFLRulebook/home.html)

[Hurst2112]

I understand, from discussions about expansion, that the NFL isn't planning on any immediate changes in the league format. They said that the amount of teams and the alignment works the best right now.


Not to mention that getting a team in Canada would mean far inferior players.



Just kidding folks.

Lighten up!

:rolleyes:

[hukarez]

Well, Toronto sees themselves as a different market, and they'll go for the NFL and ignore the CFL if they ever do expand there-- IMHO.
Really? Would it be in comparison to that of the AFL? Er - no offense to those who may take it as such!

[hukarez]

I understand, from discussions about expansion, that the NFL isn't planning on any immediate changes in the league format. They said that the amount of teams and the alignment works the best right now.
Ah, but how about for existing teams who may change cities? ;)

[SunDancer]

Ah, but how about for existing teams who may change cities? ;)

I don't see many teams moving, expect to Los Angeles.

[tucker342]

I think it's going to be a VERY long time before the NFL expands again, and when they do LA is going to be the top choice.

[Karim]

The CFL is doing very well. Toronto, whose CFL team is actually suffering has new local owners, so maybe they will boost up their popularity, but I think, on a whole the CFL is doing very well.I disagree. The league management has always been a joke. Toronto has never supported the team even when they had Doug Flutie and won back to back championships. Ottawa is just coming back into the league after an ownership fiasco. Hamilton was having around 12,000 to their games last year. People in Vancouver would rather watch the Seahawks.

Outside of the Prairies (4 teams), no one gives a damn about the CFL. Calgary is the only city that has consistently had 30,000 show up to their games and the city is 1/5 the size of Toronto.

That being said, there probably is at least a verbal agreement between the two leagues that the NFL won't expand to Toronto despite its size, or that it's the media center of the country and would have fans nation wide.

[hukarez]

I don't see many teams moving, expect to Los Angeles.
Right about this. I don't really know of any teams prepping to be on the move. With a very slim possibility to that of the Chargers, since that's a big deal in town this day and age.

[Booj]

Outside of the Prairies (4 teams), no one gives a damn about the CFL. Calgary is the only city that has consistently had 30,000 show up to their games and the city is 1/5 the size of Toronto.

Montreal and Ottawa both draw very well. Montreal has had a sell out every game for the past 4 or so seasons. Ottawa as well since they re-entered the league.

[Draft Dodger]

I happened to be consider this the other day as I was thinking about the playoffs. I think I like the new 4 division set up. but, I think I would like it better if there were 5 teams per division instead of 4, which, of course, would require 8 more teams.

personally, I think the NFL could handle that.

[nilodor]

Outside of the Prairies (4 teams), no one gives a damn about the CFL. Calgary is the only city that has consistently had 30,000 show up to their games and the city is 1/5 the size of Toronto.

Eskimos - 371,054 total fans (41,228 per game average)
Stampeders - 289,605 (32,178)
Roughriders - 264,176 (29,352)
Bluebomers - 245,025 (27,225)
Lions - 212,881 (23,653)
Renegades - 210,398 (23,378)
Alouettes - 181,818 (20,202)
Argonauts - 135,748 (15,083)
Tigercats - 133,771 (14,863)

That being said the NFL is almost if not more popular here than the CFL and I think in some cities it could draw very well. Also part of the reason for low attendance figures is alot of games are played on weekday nights, which for some are hard to make. This is alot like baseball because I was reading somewhere that weekend games have 20% more attendance than week games.

[SunDancer]

Eskimos - 371,054 total fans (41,228 per game average)
Stampeders - 289,605 (32,178)
Roughriders - 264,176 (29,352)
Bluebomers - 245,025 (27,225)
Lions - 212,881 (23,653)
Renegades - 210,398 (23,378)
Alouettes - 181,818 (20,202)
Argonauts - 135,748 (15,083)
Tigercats - 133,771 (14,863)

That being said the NFL is almost if not more popular here than the CFL and I think in some cities it could draw very well. Also part of the reason for low attendance figures is alot of games are played on weekday nights, which for some are hard to make. This is alot like baseball because I was reading somewhere that weekend games have 20% more attendance than week games.

What are the sizes of the stadiums though? Doesn't Montreal play in an undersized stadium, as does Ottawa?

[chrisj]

Speaking of which; do they have their own website? I've been meaning to figure out the little nuances between CFL and NFL rules and the like.

http://www.alouettes.net/game/theGame_CFLvsNFL.htm

It's a pretty good link explaining the differences between the two leagues...

[SunDancer]

I happened to be consider this the other day as I was thinking about the playoffs. I think I like the new 4 division set up. but, I think I would like it better if there were 5 teams per division instead of 4, which, of course, would require 8 more teams.

personally, I think the NFL could handle that.

40 teams is way too many. The quality of the NFL would just be killed, and scheduling would be a nightmare.

[finkenst]

8 division games, head-to-head against 2 other divisions. Go to 18 regular season and drop 2 preseason games.

pretty simple scheduling.

[Draft Dodger]

40 teams is way too many. The quality of the NFL would just be killed, and scheduling would be a nightmare.

I'm willing to argue about 40 teams being too many - I don't think it is, but I can see where others would disagree.

But I don't know that scheduling would be any tougher than a 32 team league. you'd play 8 division games (exactly 1/2 of your schedule), 4 conference games and 4 inter-conference games. the focus would definitely be on games in your own division, which is, IMO, the way it should be.

[chrisj]

What are the sizes of the stadiums though? Doesn't Montreal play in an undersized stadium, as does Ottawa?

That's correct...

Team - Avg Attendance / Capacity (% capacity filled)

Edmonton - 41,228 / 60,081 (69%)
Calgary - 32,178 / 36,251 (89%)
Saskatchewan - 29,352 / ~ 30,000 (nearly 100%?)
Winnipeg - 27,225 / 29,503 (92%)
BC - 23,653 / 60,000 (39%)
Ottawa - 23,378 / 27,695 (84%)
Montreal - 20,202 / 20,202 (100%)
Toronto - 15,083 / 53,000 (28%)
Hamilton - 14,863 / 35,000 (42%)

Overall, aside from two question marks in Toronto and Hamilton, the league is doing fairly well. There has been talk of expansion to Halifax, and the word is that an average attendance of 20,000 is what it would take to keep the team profitable - and that's considering Halifax would have some of (if not the) worst travel costs in the league.

[bbor]

Skydome is too small for NFL.Toronto would need to build a bigger facility.

The Argos should just drop out of the CFL,it is more of a western supported league that has'nt worked in T=oronto the last 20 years.The games are'nt even on radio in Toronto.

[TLK]

The NFL is fine as it is. Please don't tinker with it at all.

Thank you,

The Fans

[Abe Sargent]

Is the NFL thinking of expansion any time soon?

I know the first destination would be Los Angeles, but would the NFL ever consider Toronto? Outside of NY, LA and Chicago, Toronto is the largest city in North America and filling the SkyDome wouldn't be a problem.


North America? Don't gush on Toronto too much. Might want to look south of the US border for a bigger city. The ENTIRE CONTINENT of North America isn't just two countries, you know.


-Anxiety

[cody8200]

Are you guys seriously suggesting that the Arizona Cardinals are going to continue to be in Arizona? I mean look at attendance...what is it like 15000? It's ridiculously low. Within 2 years I expect the Cardinals to move to LA.

[nilodor]

Are you guys seriously suggesting that the Arizona Cardinals are going to continue to be in Arizona? I mean look at attendance...what is it like 15000? It's ridiculously low. Within 2 years I expect the Cardinals to move to LA.

I thought they are already building a downtown, retractable roof stadium for the cards?

[Daimyo]

After the NBA's failures in Canada I hope the NFL doesn't try it. There are a lot of players who simply don't want to live outside of the US for cultural reasons (ie Antonio Davis complaining about his children having to learn the canadian anthem) and especially for tax reasons.

[Karim]

Eskimos - 371,054 total fans (41,228 per game average)
Stampeders - 289,605 (32,178)
Per game average, yes, because Commonwealth is a much larger stadium. Those 50,000+ games really bump the average but Calgary has had a much longer run of consecutive 30,000+ games, like your post on percentage of capacity shows.

[Karim]

North America? Don't gush on Toronto too much. Might want to look south of the US border for a bigger city. The ENTIRE CONTINENT of North America isn't just two countries, you know.


-Anxiety
Yeah, Mexico City. My bad.

[Karim]

Skydome is too small for NFL. Toronto would need to build a bigger facility.
Then it will never happen unless it's entirely privately financed. How much did that thing finally end up costing?

[bbor]

After the NBA's failures in Canada I hope the NFL doesn't try it. There are a lot of players who simply don't want to live outside of the US for cultural reasons (ie Antonio Davis complaining about his children having to learn the canadian anthem) and especially for tax reasons.


I know of 1 NBA failure in Canada....where was the other?

Karim...Skydome ended up costing like 400 mil...only about 250 mil OVER budget.Of course the guy building it(his name escapes me right now) made about 200 mil off the deal.

He is one of the key reasons Toronto did'nt want the olympics,cause this guy was leading the bid and we knew we were gonna get hosed.The guy is a scam artist.Same thing that happened in Montreal with the BIG O happened here,Mysterious loads of supplies being dropped off and paid for...but no supplies actually being there...(ie:cement trucks would pull in empty and pretend to do a drop off and get paid for it.)

[rkmsuf]

basketball sucks there, baseball sucks there. stick to hockey and lacrosse...

[bbor]

basketball sucks there, baseball sucks there. stick to hockey and lacrosse...

??????

You forgot to put in the sarcastic smile right?

[rkmsuf]

??????

You forgot to put in the sarcastic smile right?

Raptors/Expos/Bluejays...don't draw. That's the only point. I have no ill will for our neighbors to the north...

[dixieflatline]

40 teams is way too many. The quality of the NFL would just be killed, and scheduling would be a nightmare.I totally disagree with this. The NFL has seen almost no drop off in quality of play during their recent expansions. Just look at how many second string QB's have recently moved to a new team and turned into solid players. There is a huge talent base from college and many low round picks not just making the roster but turning into good players. I wouldn't recommend moving to 40 next year but if they added two every two years I think it would work.
The NFL is the most socialist of the major sports by far. The biggest revenue is from national TV which is split evenly. Ticket sales are are split 60/40. Buy a jersey or a hat and you are contributing to all 32 teams. Also the hard cap that is set off the league's revenue which is equally divided. Small markets can survive so a place like toronto could easily support a team. Also, putting a team in canada could add more to their TV deal then a team in most places in the US.
The NFL wants a team in LA and I think the league is a bit concerned about the 4 team 4 division format. I think there is a good chance of a very bad team winning a bad division and the league looking bad. I think the league would certainly consider going to 36 by 2010 and then 3 divisions of 6 and bring back 3 wildcards.

[timmae]

I don't think expansion or relocating to Canada is a good idea... while there are large population centers I don't think the economics would work. You can look at the NBA and also the NHl for more explanation on that front. Winnepeg and Quebec couldn't support the national pasttime with the current economic structure. While making movies in Canada makes sense, professional sports leagues based in the US do not.

[rkmsuf]

I totally disagree with this. The NFL has seen almost no drop off in quality of play during their recent expansions. Just look at how many second string QB's have recently moved to a new team and turned into solid players. There is a huge talent base from college and many low round picks not just making the roster but turning into good players. I wouldn't recommend moving to 40 next year but if they added two every two years I think it would work.
The NFL is the most socialist of the major sports by far. The biggest revenue is from national TV which is split evenly. Ticket sales are are split 60/40. Buy a jersey or a hat and you are contributing to all 32 teams. Also the hard cap that is set off the league's revenue which is equally divided. Small markets can survive so a place like toronto could easily support a team. Also, putting a team in canada could add more to their TV deal then a team in most places in the US.
The NFL wants a team in LA and I think the league is a bit concerned about the 4 team 4 division format. I think there is a good chance of a very bad team winning a bad division and the league looking bad. I think the league would certainly consider going to 36 by 2010 and then 3 divisions of 6 and bring back 3 wildcards.

Check out the recent history of over expansion. Not good in hockey or basketball. baseball wants to get rid of teams.

The NFL has zero reason to add any teams...

[mking]

The NFL cannot expand to Canada.

The way I have always understood it, there is an agreement (unsigned, I believe) where the NFL has told the CFL it would never expand to Canada.

That being said, and the word of the NFL is not 100% true (hard to believe), the government of Canada would not permit the expansion of the NFL to Canada as long as there was a CFL.

For those of you who can remember the World Football League in 1974, a franchise was awarded to Toronto. It was to be called the Toronto Northmen. If memory serves me, they signed Larry Csonka and Jim Kiick among others. Excitement was quite high in Toronto.

Then the Canadian government stepped in and the Toronto Northmen, before ever putting a foot on the field, went south and became the Memphis Southmen.

The NFL in Canada? Not as long as there is a CFL.

[Maple Leafs]

Raptors/Expos/Bluejays...don't draw. That's the only point. I have no ill will for our neighbors to the north...Not really true.

Blue Jays - Not drawing great, although a lot of that has to do with the futility of playing in the AL East these days. Still, the Jays broke MLB attendance records as recently as ten years ago.

Raptors - They draw just fine. Something like 18.5K per game, good for around eigth best in the league right now. And it's not even an especially good team.

Expos - Terrible draw, but Montreal has about as much relevance to a discussion about the Toronto sports scene as Mexico would. Just two completely different cities and cultures.

Also keep in mind - in the NFL, attendance isn't as crucial as the other big four sports. The TV deal is what really drives the revenue, and Toronto's home zone would have 30 million people in it.

My best guess: Toronto would sell out for a few years on the novelty factor, do quite well when the team was decent, and probably hover around 40-50,000 when the team didn't do well. Any extended period of poor play on the field would be felt at the gate (see the Blue Jays), but in the NFL that's unlikely. Merchandise sales throughout Canada would be strong.

A better fit than LA? Probably not, although the league has been down that path already.

A better fit than, say, Portland? Yeah, I think it would be.

[Superman=#54]

Ah, but how about for existing teams who may change cities? ;)

The only team that might move is the Indianapolis Colts. They were threating to move during the off-season, so they could get public support for a new stadium.

But with the recent success of this team and a boost of season ticket sales during the off-season the Colts should stay in Indianapolis.

If Indianapolis does move sometime in the future it will most likely be to Los Angeles.

Read here (http://espn.go.com/nfl/columns/pasquarelli_len/1557240.html) for more information on the LA Colts.

[rkmsuf]

Not really true.

Blue Jays - Not drawing great, although a lot of that has to do with the futility of playing in the AL East these days. Still, the Jays broke MLB attendance records as recently as ten years ago.

Raptors - They draw just fine. Something like 18.5K per game, good for around eigth best in the league right now. And it's not even an especially good team.

Expos - Terrible draw, but Montreal has about as much relevance to a discussion about the Toronto sports scene as Mexico would. Just two completely different cities and cultures.

Also keep in mind - in the NFL, attendance isn't as crucial as the other big four sports. The TV deal is what really drives the revenue, and Toronto's home zone would have 30 million people in it.

My best guess: Toronto would sell out for a few years on the novelty factor, do quite well when the team was decent, and probably hover around 40-50,000 when the team didn't do well. Any extended period of poor play on the field would be felt at the gate (see the Blue Jays), but in the NFL that's unlikely. Merchandise sales throughout Canada would be strong.

A better fit than LA? Probably not, although the league has been down that path already.

A better fit than, say, Portland? Yeah, I think it would be.

I stand corrected about the Raptors and Blue Jays...

How does the currency conversion play into it?

[dixieflatline]

Check out the recent history of over expansion. Not good in hockey or basketball. baseball wants to get rid of teams.

The NFL has zero reason to add any teams...

Yes, I agree recent history has been very bad for expansion in other sports but the NFL has recently added the browns and the texans and I don't think there has been a dropoff at all. Some of that has to do with the large ammount of talent the league draws from but it mostly has to do with the league rules. Most of a NFL teams money comes from the league. Most of the other sports money comes from local TV deals/tickets sales. The other leagues have to make sure that a team can support itself where the NFL doesn't really have to worry about that. That is why you never hear about small markets teams having problems in the NFL. Baseball doesn't like Oakland and scoffs at Indy and Miami as places to play but in the NFL all these teams can compete without a problem.

Also, I believe the Texans payed the league a cool $300 mil for a team. If that isn't a good reason to expand I can't think of one.

The way I have always understood it, there is an agreement (unsigned, I believe) where the NFL has told the CFL it would never expand to Canada.

This is very interesting. I hadn't heard of this before but I certainly can see where both leagues would make such a deal. If this wasn't in place or if the NFL just didn't care I think that Toronto would have no problem at all supporting a NFL team but it probably won't happen.

[wade moore]

Here is the risk I see with continued expansion in the NFL..

The other sports have continued to expand as they see success... However, eventually things will decline -- even if temporarily. Whether it be a strike, economic hardships for the whole country, etc. I think that the leagues are too quick to expand during times of extreme success. It seems better to keep a model of being just under what you are able to support rather than stretching to your extreme limits.

The NFL has to think long-term, not just about what will succeed next year. They need to realize that they are at the height of success and there is a very good chance that that will not last. In fact, haven't ratings been going down somewhat as of late? Fox I know is losing money on the NFL contract (without taking cross-promotion and expansion of the network as a whole -- just on the NFL itself) and who knows if when their contract is up if anyone will offer that absurd amount of money?

[wade moore]

Side note -- wow in that purge I saw mentioned, i lost a LOT of posts.. .I know I haven't posted here in a looooooooooooooong time but i was still well over 2,000...

[Honolulu Blue]

basketball sucks there, baseball sucks there. stick to hockey and lacrosse...

Don't forget curling! :p

On topic, I don't see expansion into Toronto for the NFL at least for the next decade for the reasons others have mentioned:

1) The CFL,
2) The history of other US-based major league franchises in Canada,
3) The NFL's current lack of interest in expansion,
4) The existence of other, perhaps better markets closer to home.

[Simms]

Paul Godfrey (the man who was behind the construction of the SkyDome and *both* of Toronto's failed Olympic bids) has been manoevering for an NFL team for years. While many of the arguments presented in this thread are very valid and would probably come up at some point in any serious discussion, it's always been my understanding that the main roadblock to an NFL team in Toronto is actually an NFL by-law that states that an NFL stadium must have a *minimum* capacity of 60,000 to even be considered for use.

We don't have one, and barring massive renovations to SkyDome or another fleecing of the municipal/provincial public, it ain't gonna happen anytime soon. Until it does, all the other arguments are pretty much moot. :)

[Maple Leafs]

How does the currency conversion play into it?That would be a factor. It's a hurdle for all Canadian sports teams, since they take in revenue in (mostly) Canadian dollars and pay out salaries in US dollars.

That said, the Canadian dollar has been soaring recently. It hasn't directly affected Canadian teams yet because they typically buy their US dollars in advance (so as not to be at the mercy of markets).

However, I'd think that an NFL team wouldn't have as big a problem here as, say, an NHL or MLB franchise. My understanding is that the biggest revenue generator for an NFL team is the TV contract, which would be paid in US dollars.

So the currency might only be a major issue when it came to the actual franchise fee, assuming Canadian ownership.

[Greyroofoo]

Right the the Colts owner is demanding 10 millions dollars from the city of Indianapolis. The RCA Dome isn't good at generating revenue for th Colts, and the people of Indianapolis are split among wanting the city to pay for the Colts.