Question for Attorneys

[CamEdwards]

Say a preacherman endorses a presidential candidate from the podium. Would that act alone be enough to yank a church's tax exempt status, or would the church itself have to donate funds to a campaign?

[John Galt]

sorry - I don't have a clue on that one.

[Ksyrup]

Me neither. I've heard ministers endorse candidates before, and as far as I know, nothing has come of it, but that might be because no one passed the information along to someone in a position to do something about it, as opposed to it being permissible.

[MrBug708]

IF that was the case, I'm sure Jesse and Al would have fought that law...

[CamEdwards]

I don't know that Jesse or Al are affiliated with a particular church, so I'm not sure if the law would apply to them.

[digamma]

Yes, technically, but I'm not sure how likely a consequence it is. From my limited knowledge on the subject, most of the law on the area deals with literature put out by churches, which is much easier to control.

[albionmoonlight]

What frustrates me about this question is that I took a class in non-profit corporations in law school and know that there was a time (3 short years ago) when I knew the answer to this question. Now I don't. It's not fun seeing knowledge slip away.

Let me look it up for a few minutes and see what I can find (your tax dollars at work).

[albionmoonlight]

hxxp://pacer.cadc.uscourts.gov/common/opinions/200005/99-5097a.txt

Should give you a good starting point to at least see how the procedure works.

[HornedFrog Purple]

When Pat Robertson ran back in the late 80's he resigned from his ministry and resigned his credentials as an ordained minister.

[digamma]

hxxp://pacer.cadc.uscourts.gov/common/opinions/200005/99-5097a.txt

Should give you a good starting point to at least see how the procedure works.
That is the case I remember, albion. And more recently an issue with Christian coalition pamphlets somewhere in Virginia--maybe for the 2000 elections.

[albionmoonlight]

hxxp://www.eaglecross.net/PolChr.html

also speaks to the issue and has a contact #.

[CamEdwards]

Another attorney referred me to this Q&A (http://pewforum.org/publications/reports/IRCbrochureBIG.pdf) that indicates a preacher cannot endorse a candidate from the pulpit.

Thanks, y'all.

[CamEdwards]

By the way, for anyone interested: this is what I was looking into (http://www.okforkucinich.us/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=136&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0&POSTNUKESID=101d01a43eac39485c2f62d6731a201f)

Rev. Robin Meyers Endorses Kucinich




(Oklahoma City) Dr. Robin Meyers, pastor of Mayflower Congregational Church, professor, and Oklahoma Gazette columnist lauded the concepts of a Department of Peace and providing Health Care for everyone in Sunday's sermon.

He stated that he will vote for the candidate who most nearly matches his principles, Dennis Kucinich, and reminded the congregation that "voting your conscience is never a wasted vote."

This week's sermon will be heard NEXT Sunday night, February 8, KOMA 10:30. We apologize for thinking, and announcing, that it would be o*n last night. It can also be heard next Sunday morning, same station at 9:30 am.

[Butter]

Where in that paragraph does it state that the person told his congregation who to vote for?

[CamEdwards]

It doesn't. In order to endorse a candidate, you don't have to tell others who to vote for.

From the Pew Forum Q and A guide:

The political activities of clergy or other religious leaders are attributed to their
religious organizations when they are undertaken during worship services or
other organization-sponsored functions, or in official organization publications.18
Political activities will also be attributable to the religious organization if a
member of the clergy or other religious leader indicates that he or she is acting
on behalf of his or her religious organization or if the organization’s funds, facilities
or other assets are used to support political activity.


In other words, standing in front of the podium and saying "I'm voting for (insert name here)" is an endorsement, which in turn appears to be a no-no. I was under the impression originally that a church had to donate some funds to a candidate to violate the law, but it looks like I was wrong.

[HornedFrog Purple]

That is a pretty shaky definition of endorsement if true. I think the term has been used too ambigiously many times.

[Butter]

Yeah, you're reaching with that one, Cam. What happened, did they piss you off before or something?

[Fonzie]

If that is an "endorsement" of a political candidate, then it would probably be worth combing the sermons of all churches in the nation to ensure they haven't "endorsed" political candidates, at any level, from either side of the aisle.

I'm sure that the number of churches hurt by endorsing liberals would be comparable to the number of churches endorsing conservatives, ensuring equitable punishment between party-affiliated churches. Right? Right?

[JonInMiddleGA]

FWIW, this is one "conservative" who has long advocated the revocation of tax-exempt status once a church sticks even its toe into direct political advocacy.

[Fonzie]

Oh I agree. I'd like to keep the wall between church and state nice and firm.

[Fonzie]

And by "state" I include preliminary politics like we have going on right now.

[Bubba Wheels]

Depends. If your a Conservative and do it, they will come after you. But if your a Liberal, and especially a minority Liberal, your free to say and do what you want, no questions asked. This is why, even though people have documents that Jessie Jackson paid off his girlfriend who had his baby out of tax-free charity funds, the IRS will never audit him.

[Fonzie]

Depends. If your a Conservative and do it, they will come after you.

They will? Do you have evidence of this?

But if your a Liberal, and especially a minority Liberal, your free to say and do what you want, no questions asked. This is why, even though people have documents that Jessie Jackson paid off his girlfriend who had his baby out of tax-free charity funds, the IRS will never audit him.

Huh?

[HornedFrog Purple]

There is a difference between saying:

"I voted for so and so because..." and

"You need to vote for so and so because..."

Since I have no idea what he actually said, there is a difference in these examples of individual and congregational advocacy.

The same would apply to any board room yes?

If he said anything like the second example then would be speaking for the congregation collective since he is the headperson of that congregation at that time. It might be considered nitpicking but I don't think so.

[Jon]

Although I don't remember a specific provision of the law, in my election law class we learned that it really is not permissible for a minister to do that. However, neither party pushes the enforcement of this provision because it would affect both parties (namely, Christian Coalition "voter guides" distributed at Southern Baptist Convention churces -- which are still done in many places, which benefit Republicans and minority churches, which generally benefit the Dems).

[CamEdwards]

First of all, no the church hasn't done anything to me. My concern more than anything is that when it comes to bigger candidates, other pastors might get themselves into a mess because they believe they can say "I'm going to vote for Kerry" or I'm going to vote for Bush" come November. I didn't turn this church in to the IRS, nor do I plan to. :)

[kcchief19]

Endorsing a candidate is the wrong phrase to use. Thew Pew document more broadly defines impermissable political activity, which is much more detailed than simply describing it as endorsing a candidate.

Good to know. I got a brochure from a local church a few years ago telling me that Democrats murdered children and were going to hell, so be sure to vote Republican. Wish I had known about this. I would have stuck it to them. :)

[Bubba Wheels]

Endorsing a candidate is the wrong phrase to use. Thew Pew document more broadly defines impermissable political activity, which is much more detailed than simply describing it as endorsing a candidate.

Good to know. I got a brochure from a local church a few years ago telling me that Democrats murdered children and were going to hell, so be sure to vote Republican. Wish I had known about this. I would have stuck it to them. :)

If that church is not 503c exempt (tax exempt) then you can't touch them for using free speech. That is the goverment's control over churchs in general, the government can threaten their tax-exempt status. I believe this is why voter's guides are no longer handed out in churches. (Remember those?)