Can anyone explain more fully the importance of Thales' well?

[John Galt]

I know this is a relatively obscure question, but I'm hoping someone here has a decent background in Greek philosophy or classics. Basically, I know the two stories of Thales' well (that he fell in because he was to busy worrying about what was above him and not below and the alternative version where he sat at the bottom of a well to better view the sky). I just want to understand the icon of Thales' well a little more - I assume it is the primary version of the story (he fell), but wanted to see how it is referenced in modern studies. Any insight would be appreciated. Thanks.

[cthomer5000]

http://www.abu.nb.ca/Courses/GrPhil/Thales.htm

[John Galt]

Thanks. That is some nice background material. I'm still looking to hear if anyone knows the modern conception of Thales' well and its significance as a reference. Is it just meant to embody the principle of being lost in the clouds?

[John Galt]

I know this is a longshot, but I'll give this a bump and hope for an answer.

[albionmoonlight]

Sorry, John. I had not heard of this phrase until this thread.

My fiancee used to have a desk reference called the "Dictionary of Phrase and Fable" that always seemed to have the answer to stuff like this. Maybe they have an online version that you can check out.

[HornedFrog Purple]

I always thought it tied in to his hypothesis that all matter came from water. As he was looking to the heavens, he fell into the answer.

[John Galt]

Thanks for the help. I'm going to give this one more bump on the hope of getting more info.

[QuikSand]

I always thought it tied in to his hypothesis that all matter came from water. As he was looking to the heavens, he fell into the answer.

I thought this, too.

[Axxon]

A ping out to wbonnell would seem in order. He's our philosophy guy around here.

[wbonnell]

To tell the truth, I've never read the alternate version. Nonetheless, I know a little about Thales. He is traditionally regarded as the first Western philosopher (although Anaximander is more worthy IMO) because his are the first extant works we have of a Greek endeavoring to explain the universe using logos (loosely translates as reason in this context) rather than mythos (stories, presented as truth, ABOUT the universe). He believed that the basic stuff of reality (what we might call substance) was water. This theory implies that reality is one substance. This is a surprisingly mature concept and is something that has been postulated by philosophers as esteemed as Spinoza.

Of course, this has little to do with the story about Thales following into a well or the other stories, for that matter. The other three (relevant) extant stories I will repeat here (culled from an Ancient Philosophy textbook):



(1) "... just as, Theodorus, a witty and attractive Thracian servant-girl is said to have mocked Thales for falling into a well while he was observing the stars and gazing upwards; declaring that he was eager to know the things in the sky, but that what was behind him and just by his feet escaped his notice."



(2) "For when they reproached him because of his poverty, as though philosophy were no use, it is said that, having observed through his study of the heavenly bodies that there would be a large olive-crop, he raised a little capital while it was still winter, and paid deposits on all the olive presses in Miletus and Chios, hiring them cheaply because no one bid against him. When the appropriate time came there was a sudden rush of requests for the presses; he then hired them out on his own terms and so made a large profit, thus demonstrating that it is easy for philosophers to be rich, if they wish, but that it is not in this that they are interested.'

(3) "When he came to the Halys river, Croesus then, as I say, put his army across by the existing bridges; but, according to the common account of the Greeks, Thales the Milesian transferred the army for him. For it is said that Croesus was at a loss how his army should cross the river, since these bridges did not yet exist at this period; and that Thales, who was present in the army, made the river, which flowed on the left hand of the army, flow on the right hand also. He did so in this way: beginning upstream of the army he dug a deep channel, giving it a crescent shape, so that it should flow round the back of where the army was encamped, being diverted in this way from its old course once more by the channel, and passing the camp should flow into its old course once more. The result was that as soon as the river was divided it became fordable in both its parts."

(4) "Hieronymous says that he [Thales] actually measured the pyramids by their shadow, having observed the time when our own shadow is equal to our height."



Taken in context, you could argue that the first story portrays him as a useless philosopher with his head in the clouds, while the other 3 reveal how industrious and practical he could be if necessary.
The portrayal as an "absent-minded professor" was, understandably, the common sentiment. Remember, Western man was just beginning to rationally question the world.

[wbonnell]

After some quick research, I found a playful quote by Heidegger (a famous German, Continental philosopher) regarding the "well" story: "philosophy is what Thracian slave girls laugh at".

By the way, I don't think that the well was intended to symbolize water. Indeed, I've seen the story translated with the word "hole" rather than well. I would imagine translations from an ancient to a modern language are quite tricky. I know firsthand how conceptuall loaded the word logos is.

[Axxon]

I know firsthand how conceptually loaded the word logos is.

Ah, don't we all. :)

Actually, I didn't recognize that story #2 above was about this guy which is odd because it is one of my favorite stories and I'd just looked it up a month or so ago when I cited it in a message I wrote somewhere. Ah, the joys of the slipping short term memory. :)

[John Galt]

Thanks for the help. This is exactly what I was looking for.