FOF2K4: Am I ever suppossed to keep a play until retirement?

[rpommier]

It's chaffing my badly to see the QB I originally had in FOF2K4 continue to light the league on fire! I hung on to him for 10 years and won 3 SB's and 6 Division Championships. Then BAM! the fool started asking for astranomical amounts of money. So I trade him for some picks to free up some salary cap room after using the cap-out option way too much years ealier.

So it's 2017 in my league and he has just about every passing record in the league.

So what I'm saying is he should've been a Texan for life! Do you guys usually keep your QB's no matter what the cost if he's stellar? Or after awhile do you just have to blow your team up and start over?

Roderick

[Chubby]

I do. Of course I backload my contracts to keep the team together. Beware, do that and you will get flogged a hundred times for not being a "real FOFer"...

[rpommier]

Care to share that technique with me Chubby? I find it extremely difficult to keep a team together before they start demanding $22 mill signing bonuses and crap like that.

Roderick

[FBPro]

Care to share that technique with me Chubby? I find it extremely difficult to keep a team together before they start demanding $22 mill signing bonuses and crap like that.

Roderick


Those kinda things happen, you just have to be selective in who you "keep" long term. I've had atleast 10-15 players(just a guess but atleast that many) I've kept during their whole career(10+ seasons) and I'm in season 60-something.

[Chubby]

Care to share that technique with me Chubby? I find it extremely difficult to keep a team together before they start demanding $22 mill signing bonuses and crap like that.

Roderick
Sure, but be ready to
A) not be able to do this to the same degree with the 5.0C patch
B) get ready for some posts deriding it

Basically what you want to do is lower your cap costs each year from what the player "offers" you. It's harder with QB's because they usually an absurd signing bonus which doesn't go away, you can still do it but you can't keep EVERYONE, like FBPro said pick 10-15 guys you want to keep around til they retire then work with the other positions with the money you have left over.

Let's use generic QB Joe Montana. Let's say Joe wants...

$40,000,000 signing bonus
1st year 2,000,000 + 10,000,000 = $12,000,000
2nd year 10,000,000 + 10,000,000 = $20,000,000
3rd year 15,000,000 + 10,000,000 = $30,000,000
4th year 17,000,000 + 10,000,000 = $27,000,000

The first thing you do is try and stretch out the length of the deal without upping the bonus. DO NOT try and lower bonus, very rarely will that word and it's MUCH easier to just leave the bonus as is or keep it very close (change his asking of $42,040,000 to $42,000,000 is fine) This will spread out the bonus over more years, reducing the cap hit for each of the years. If you make Joe's contract a 5 year deal, the bonus part of his cap hit will drop to $8,000,000 for each season of the contract "saving" you $2,000,000 per year. The longer you extend the deal, the more you save. The next thing you'll want to do is try and lower the "salary" portion of each season EXCEPT season 1. Leave season 1 (this year) as is, it is ALWAYS much lower than later years (which we will use to our advantage later) and the players usually HATE it if you try and lower it anymore. This is where trial and error comes in, say we decide we want to start "our negotiations" at...

$40,000,000 Signing bonus
1st year 2,000,000 + 8,000,000 = $10,000,000
2nd year 7,000,000 + 8,000,000 = $15,000,000
3rd year 10,000,000 + 8,000,000 = $18,000,000
4th year 12,000,000 + 8,000,000 = $20,000,000
5th year 14,000,000 + 8,000,000 = $22,000,000

if the player rejects this, try making the final year a balloon payment (the player will never see this) by maxing out the offer for that year only. So if your owner will allow a max of $42,720,000 for any one season, make that the 5th years "salary" part. This ups the overall value of the contract increasing the odds of acceptance. If you get the "the league does not allow extreme backloading" message, then try reducing it little by little because sometimes it will go through if you reduce it by a 1/4 or whatever.

If the player doesn't accept, slowly up each year little by little til the player finally excpets. Once you do a few this way, it won't take as long as the first few will.

The balloon payment: Remember when I said the 1st year of the contract that the player offers is ALWAYS a lot smaller than other years? That's why you can use the balloon payment, once you sign a player to said deal with a balloon payment, you will want to renegotiate his deal during FA of the final year of his contract (balloon payment year). Not only will you get out of taking the huge cap hit, but you will get him for cheap since "year 1" of any new deal is always very cheap.

Make sense?

[Kodos]

I think people only have a problem with this when you try it in MULTIPLAYER. If you want to cheat the AI in singleplayer, you go right ahead...

[MizzouRah]

Speaking of players asking for big $$$$$, is there a way to see who the highest player at each position?


Todd

[stevew]

I like to employ a slightly different strategy, but yes, also like the extreme backloading if I have to.

Say I have some cap space this year(I'm not in total Cap Hell)

Instead of this response to the situation in chubby's post

$40,000,000 Signing bonus
1st year 2,000,000 + 8,000,000 = $10,000,000
2nd year 7,000,000 + 8,000,000 = $15,000,000
3rd year 10,000,000 + 8,000,000 = $18,000,000
4th year 12,000,000 + 8,000,000 = $20,000,000
5th year 14,000,000 + 8,000,000 = $22,000,000

Ill offer
As much as possible for the first year. Then basically no raise for the next 3-4 years. Usually if he wants 2 million, Ill go up to say 5 million, then go 6, and 7. then up say 10 and then 14.

Basically something like

$40,000,000 Signing bonus
1st year 5,000,000 + 8,000,000 = $13,000,000
2nd year 6,000,000 + 8,000,000 = $14,000,000
3rd year 7,000,000 + 8,000,000 = $15,000,000
4th year 10,000,000 + 8,000,000 = $18,000,000
5th year 14,000,000 + 8,000,000 = $22,000,000

Now if He doesnt like it, and I got more cap room, I may add a million to the 1st year, and so on, but Im taking a bit off that 14 and 10 too.


Sure, but be ready to
A) not be able to do this to the same degree with the 5.0C patch
B) get ready for some posts deriding it

Basically what you want to do is lower your cap costs each year from what the player "offers" you. It's harder with QB's because they usually an absurd signing bonus which doesn't go away, you can still do it but you can't keep EVERYONE, like FBPro said pick 10-15 guys you want to keep around til they retire then work with the other positions with the money you have left over.

Let's use generic QB Joe Montana. Let's say Joe wants...

$40,000,000 signing bonus
1st year 2,000,000 + 10,000,000 = $12,000,000
2nd year 10,000,000 + 10,000,000 = $20,000,000
3rd year 15,000,000 + 10,000,000 = $30,000,000
4th year 17,000,000 + 10,000,000 = $27,000,000

The first thing you do is try and stretch out the length of the deal without upping the bonus. DO NOT try and lower bonus, very rarely will that word and it's MUCH easier to just leave the bonus as is or keep it very close (change his asking of $42,040,000 to $42,000,000 is fine) This will spread out the bonus over more years, reducing the cap hit for each of the years. If you make Joe's contract a 5 year deal, the bonus part of his cap hit will drop to $8,000,000 for each season of the contract "saving" you $2,000,000 per year. The longer you extend the deal, the more you save. The next thing you'll want to do is try and lower the "salary" portion of each season EXCEPT season 1. Leave season 1 (this year) as is, it is ALWAYS much lower than later years (which we will use to our advantage later) and the players usually HATE it if you try and lower it anymore. This is where trial and error comes in, say we decide we want to start "our negotiations" at...

$40,000,000 Signing bonus
1st year 2,000,000 + 8,000,000 = $10,000,000
2nd year 7,000,000 + 8,000,000 = $15,000,000
3rd year 10,000,000 + 8,000,000 = $18,000,000
4th year 12,000,000 + 8,000,000 = $20,000,000
5th year 14,000,000 + 8,000,000 = $22,000,000

if the player rejects this, try making the final year a balloon payment (the player will never see this) by maxing out the offer for that year only. So if your owner will allow a max of $42,720,000 for any one season, make that the 5th years "salary" part. This ups the overall value of the contract increasing the odds of acceptance. If you get the "the league does not allow extreme backloading" message, then try reducing it little by little because sometimes it will go through if you reduce it by a 1/4 or whatever.

If the player doesn't accept, slowly up each year little by little til the player finally excpets. Once you do a few this way, it won't take as long as the first few will.

The balloon payment: Remember when I said the 1st year of the contract that the player offers is ALWAYS a lot smaller than other years? That's why you can use the balloon payment, once you sign a player to said deal with a balloon payment, you will want to renegotiate his deal during FA of the final year of his contract (balloon payment year). Not only will you get out of taking the huge cap hit, but you will get him for cheap since "year 1" of any new deal is always very cheap.

Make sense?

[FargoFreez aka fof playa]

Speaking of players asking for big $$$$$, is there a way to see who the highest player at each position?


Todd
Generally doing a search for the specific position while using the salary parameters does the trick. Just keep raising the min. salary until there's very few players left.

[AgPete]

I do. Of course I backload my contracts to keep the team together. Beware, do that and you will get flogged a hundred times for not being a "real FOFer"...

How is that cheating the AI? That's what real football contracts look like. Your Joe Montana example is even more generous than a lot of contracts I've seen. Plenty of teams go with a huge signing bonus, stay as close to a million as they can for 3 years and then mercilessly increase the salary. Most teams either talk contract again when the salary goes up, try a year at a $6-$8 million range if they can handle it or cut the player. With a lot of players, the signing bonus is the contract. They know they won't make it the entire life of the contract so what difference should it make if they agree on a $40 million signing bonus for 4 years or 7 years?

[MizzouRah]

Generally doing a search for the specific position while using the salary parameters does the trick. Just keep raising the min. salary until there's very few players left.

I always forget the 'recommed player' button, never use it. Thanks for the help!


Todd

[mckerney]

Generally doing a search for the specific position while using the salary parameters does the trick. Just keep raising the min. salary until there's very few players left.

Or just find the higest salary per position for what number you should use to search.

[Chubby]

How is that cheating the AI? That's what real football contracts look like. Your Joe Montana example is even more generous than a lot of contracts I've seen. Plenty of teams go with a huge signing bonus, stay as close to a million as they can for 3 years and then mercilessly increase the salary. Most teams either talk contract again when the salary goes up, try a year at a $6-$8 million range if they can handle it or cut the player. With a lot of players, the signing bonus is the contract. They know they won't make it the entire life of the contract so what difference should it make if they agree on a $40 million signing bonus for 4 years or 7 years?
Well I agree with you, I'm just saying SOME people on this board think it is the most evil thing since John Tesh. To them it's "cheating the AI" regardless of the fact that it happens in real life.

[Darkiller]

When the QB is a future Hall of Famer, I try to keep him with me no matter what, until he retires.
But sometimes, yes, you have to cut ties with him even though it almost breaks your heart. "this is a business"...

[Ben E Lou]

But sometimes, yes, you have to cut ties with him even though it almost breaks your heart. "this is a business"...Bingo.

That being said, I'll have to check when I get to the office (my only copy of my longest career is there--bigger hard drive), but I am fairly sure that I have a quite disproportionate percentage of Legend Of The Game players in my long career, without any non-game-recommended backloading. I typically do no renegotating (besides cap out offers...which have become more and more rare over time....see Salary Cap Hell thread ;)) until the final year of contracts

[rpommier]

Thanks Chubby, Stevew and Darkiller... If only I could do the same with coaches :) Those guys get expensive too. I was just in a position of recovery and painted myself in another corner. I was $43mil under the cap in 2016 and slutted myself off to the siren song of free-agency :(

I was 6-10, 4-11, 4-11, 8-8, then suddenly jumped to 10-6 SB Win, 2017 then 14-2, SB Win 2018. And now I'm reaping what I've sowed!

Now I'm looking like I was in 2011 when this mess started! I sold the farm in 2016 for a stud 4th year stud WR, a hellacious DE and a maxed out LCB. They've all paid huge dividends. But things are spiraling out of control now, I haven't turned a profit in 3 seasons, time for a new deal I guess...

Thanks again guys...

Roderick

[QuikSand]

Beware, do that and you will get flogged a hundred times for not being a "real FOFer"...

Sure, but ... get ready for some posts deriding it

The biggest downside with doing this is that you are seemingly forced to continuously walk around with a giant chip on your shoulder, becoming pre-emptively defensive about your own actions, and hypersensitive to criticism. Thats seems like a tough burden to carry.

[Subby]

*snicker*

[wig]

Chubby backloads his pants, too.

:)

[AgPete]

Well I agree with you, I'm just saying SOME people on this board think it is the most evil thing since John Tesh. To them it's "cheating the AI" regardless of the fact that it happens in real life.

I'm interested in hearing what people have told you that makes you feel that it's unacceptable. I'd like to see if they could make a compelling argument. To me, when the player asks for an initial $10 million up front as a signing bonus in a 4 year contract, increasing the contract to 7 years with the same signing bonus to help your cap damage is not cheating. That's realistic, all teams do that. The player wants the fat signing bonus, and everything else is gravy. No player thinks that a back-loaded contract will actually last more than 3-4 years, they know they're helping the team out.

I would show some contracts at the NFL Player's Association as an example. These numbers are only the salary, not the signing bonus and you can see how little players care about the contract length or salary numbers after the initial signing bonus. A lot of the total contract numbers are just a respect thing. Players want to say they have the largest contract for their position even though they won't see half the money.

Lavar Arrington (pretty obvious which years arrington negotiates a new contract, hint, 2003 was his last year to renegotiate)
2000 193000.00
2001 300000.00
2002 1120000.00
2003 450000.00
2004 535000.00
2005 540000.00
2006 545000.00
2007 2000000.00
2008 3500000.00

Jerry Rice (a perfect example of the type of contract I listed that you say is criticized as cheating, the Raiders don't play on paying Rice after '06)
2002 850000.00
2003 1050000.00
2004 1350000.00
2005 1000000.00
2006 7000000.00
2007 8000000.00
2008 9000000.00

[HornedFrog Purple]

hmmm anyone see anything wrong with this contract? (just as an example)

400k + 500k bonus
700k + 200k bonus
900k + 200k bonus
1.2 mill + 200k bonus
10 mill + 200k bonus

[albionmoonlight]

You have to decide what is important to you, too. 10 years ago in my career, I had a piss poor secondary, but two #1 draft picks. I drafted a safety with picks #17 and #18. Both guys ended up being modest breakouts from their mid-first round ratings, and I ended up with two of the best safeties in the game. I decided that I liked having these two guys on my team together, and that I was not going to ever let them see free agency. As a result, I have had to carry the cap burden for the last 6 years of having two of the highest paid safeties in the league (indeed, they are two of my highest paid players). From a business perspective, I should have let (at least one of) these guys go long ago and picked up a cheap safety during FA. It would have given me some cap space with which to play, and would have enabled me not to go cheap with other aspects of the team. But I am happier knowing that these guys will each retire a Lemur.

FOF has always been more immersive to me than to a lot of people.

[AgPete]

hmmm anyone see anything wrong with this contract? (just as an example)

400k + 500k bonus
700k + 200k bonus
900k + 200k bonus
1.2 mill + 200k bonus
10 mill + 200k bonus

If people are cheating with lower tier players, yes I could see how that would work but I haven't had much of a chance to play the newest FOF yet. I'm still setting up a dynasty report. I know in past FOF versions, Jim set a limit on salary increases for back-loaded contracts which would nullify the numbers you posted. Also, does the new FOF have a more accurate signing bonus system in check now? You have the salary bonus not being prorated evenly like I'm used to seeing in the FOF series. Did Jim change the salary dynamics and use the same system a lot of today's contracts employ which award signing bonuses in incremental amounts over 3-4 years to save cap room?

[Buzzbee]

If people are cheating with lower tier players, yes I could see how that would work but I haven't had much of a chance to play the newest FOF yet. I'm still setting up a dynasty report. I know in past FOF versions, Jim set a limit on salary increases for back-loaded contracts which would nullify the numbers you posted. Also, does the new FOF have a more accurate signing bonus system in check now? You have the salary bonus not being prorated evenly like I'm used to seeing in the FOF series. Did Jim change the salary dynamics and use the same system a lot of today's contracts employ which award signing bonuses in incremental amounts over 3-4 years to save cap room?

I believe the contract HFP listed as an example is based on one that Chubby used in the IHOF multi-player league. In regard to Jim setting a limit on back-loaded contracts, it's there but it allowed the contract above.

As far as the signing bonus being different in year one from the remaining years, that is because this is a re-negotiated contract. The original contract was a one year deal with a $250k bonus. When the deal was re-negotiated, the original $250k bonus was rolled into the first year of the re-negotiated deal.

[AgPete]

I believe the contract HFP listed as an example is based on one that Chubby used in the IHOF multi-player league. In regard to Jim setting a limit on back-loaded contracts, it's there but it allowed the contract above.

As far as the signing bonus being different in year one from the remaining years, that is because this is a re-negotiated contract. The original contract was a one year deal with a $250k bonus. When the deal was re-negotiated, the original $250k bonus was rolled into the first year of the re-negotiated deal.

If those are the numbers that caused your dispute in the first place Chubby, I think they have a legit issue. Those salary numbers Horned Frog raised are not the same you brought up in your hypothetical example. With star players, it's difficult to stretch the numbers because the salary cap is so meaningful but I can see how less talented players could be "cheated" into a contract if.

Buzzbee, sad to see it was just part of a new contract with the former one. :( I'd love to be able to sign a draft pick to something similar to what Michael Vick received with signing bonuses spread out to protect the team. I think all football games have a long ways to go with contracts. It's still one of the issues that I have a problem with in most football games from FOF to Madden.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Actually I have no problem whatsoever with the contract Chubby posted here. But what he is talking about here and what he is so persistant on defending are two different things.

You can fool the AI with an immense salary in the last year of a proposed contract with a stagnant salary bonus only in renegotiations is basically what it boils down to.

It doesn't work in FA signing though.

The renegotiation thing is supposed to be fixed by Jim in the next patch.

[nilodor]

Is it really that different than the NFL? There are pleanty of contracts signed where you hear, this is really a 3 year deal with 2 years at the end he will never see. Those two years at the end are the astronomical numbers which make the player look like he's gotten a huge payday. It's just like McNabb's contract. The first few years are resonable with the last couple being huge to get him upto 100 million or whatever number it was. There is no way he will ever see those numbers.

[AgPete]

Is it really that different than the NFL? There are pleanty of contracts signed where you hear, this is really a 3 year deal with 2 years at the end he will never see. Those two years at the end are the astronomical numbers which make the player look like he's gotten a huge payday. It's just like McNabb's contract. The first few years are resonable with the last couple being huge to get him upto 100 million or whatever number it was. There is no way he will ever see those numbers.

I totally agree with that. Just like the Jerry Rice and Lavaar Arrington salary numbers I posted above, it happens all the time. There are always ridiculous salary increases which remain dependent on a nice signing bonus. But the example Horned Frog posted is a salary cap number I don't see in the NFL because of the small bonus involved. You don't see many of the journeymen who can only collect a million dollar signing bonus at best, signing up for 900% hikes in their 4th year. While the final year hike may be a bug in re-signing a player, I still think it's realistic for star players because most of their contracts look like that. Perennial back-ups, special teamers, and less talented vets, though, usually don't see hefty back-loaded contracts on top of small offers.

[RendeR]

Its funny really, I employ a completely different strategy

whenever a contract is in the last year I renegotiate with the player if he's worth keeping. I take his first year offer and make that the every year offer, for example:

Joe montana wants
$40,000,000 Signing bonus
1st year 2,000,000 + 8,000,000 = $10,000,000
2nd year 7,000,000 + 8,000,000 = $15,000,000
3rd year 10,000,000 + 8,000,000 = $18,000,000
4th year 12,000,000 + 8,000,000 = $20,000,000
5th year 14,000,000 + 8,000,000 = $22,000,000


I'd offer him
$40,000,000 Signing bonus
1st year 2,000,000 + 8,000,000 = $10,000,000
2nd year 2,000,000 + 8,000,000 = $10,000,000
3rd year 2,000,000 + 8,000,000 = $10,000,000
4th year 2,000,000 + 8,000,000 = $10,000,000
5th year 2,000,000 + 8,000,000 = $10,000,000

Now they generally reject this at first and I will either slowly increase the bonus until they accept, or in this case I would increase the yearly salary by 500K until they accept. either way, it works out much more cap happy for me in the long run. and I keep my superior players happy.

now if I could just WIN the damn SB when i get there.....

[HornedFrog Purple]

Is it really that different than the NFL? There are pleanty of contracts signed where you hear, this is really a 3 year deal with 2 years at the end he will never see. Those two years at the end are the astronomical numbers which make the player look like he's gotten a huge payday. It's just like McNabb's contract. The first few years are resonable with the last couple being huge to get him upto 100 million or whatever number it was. There is no way he will ever see those numbers.

that's true but i don't think you would see McNabb signing a 12 year/115 million dollar contract with a 6 million dollar signing bonus.