'Skins and Brunell reach agreement [Archive] - Front Office Football Central

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Draft Dodger

02-19-2004, 10:52 PM

AgPete

02-19-2004, 10:58 PM

have to admit, I thought the Redskins would smarten up and not do this deal.

7 years, $43 million, 8.6 million bonus...the Jags will get a 3rd rounder.

...http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=1739475

In my opinion, that's a pointless signing. They should give Ramsey another year and not spend all that money on a veteran who may never be healthy enough to finish a complete season. If any of the rumors about Bledsoe, Warner or Garcia being cut ever become true, the Skins wasted a 3rd round pick on Brunell. But I'm a Cowboys fan so I have no problem with the Redskins pissing off their young QB and adding more damage to the cap. ;)

Draft Dodger

02-19-2004, 11:00 PM

In my opinion, that's a pointless signing.

mine too.

AgPete

02-19-2004, 11:09 PM

The rumors I've read have the Skins keeping Ramsey on the bench while Brunell starts. Every old coach that returns has to hear the usual rap about how he may have lost it but I really think this signing points to a few things.

1) Gibbs knows something about Ramsey that we don't. He isn't on pace to be the next Manning, but he didn't look that bad at all to me considering who his coach was.

2) Which brings me to my next point, Gibbs may be out of touch with this league and the salary cap. Brunell was kicked out of Jacksonville because the Jags had to train and pay their 1st round QB. Same goes for Ramsey even if he was a late, not early, 1st round pick.

3) Gibbs believes the Skins can have instant success just like the Cowboys did with Parcells. Why else would you spent the money for a contract like that on an old QB who is not in his prime anymore and is also injury prone. Brunell isn't being paid the big bucks to sit on the bench. Gibbs must really believe that the perks Brunell brings to the offense are good enough to put them in the Playoffs, otherwise he should be giving Ramsey some much needed reps in a real offense, not that Spurrier fun and gun crap.

Peregrine

02-20-2004, 12:23 AM

Gah, I really hate this deal. It's a big mistake in my opinion, they would have been better off with Ramsey.

damnMikeBrown

02-20-2004, 01:12 AM

Geez, this just looks terrible. I hope for the 'Skins sake that the contract is really friendly. . .

Nevermind, $8.6M bonus over 7 years. I'd call that unfriendly. What is Brunnel, 32? He gets hurt not infrequently, and has taken a hellatious beating the past few seasons. Geez, I really have to question pulling the trigger on this one. Get a veteran, fine, but good grief. I may eat crow on this one, but I doubt it. A bad move by Steinbrennar Jr.

Desnudo

02-20-2004, 03:24 AM

Seven years. Damn.

cthomer5000

02-20-2004, 05:49 AM

I just don't see how this is good for Ramsey at all. I'm sure he'll just play out his contract and head elsewhere.

Subby

02-20-2004, 06:23 AM

This is a horrible signing.

HORRIBLE.

I was going to try and justify it and put a good "mentor" spin on it, but I got nothin'...

Ksyrup

02-20-2004, 07:04 AM

This just reinforces my belief that Gibbs is going to pull a Vermeil - try to win it all in 2-3 years, and then quit again. Can't very well do that with someone at QB who is still learning.

Ksyrup

02-20-2004, 07:21 AM

"Talks that began during Super Bowl week wrapped up late Thursday, when agent Leigh Steinberg and Redskins owner Dan Snyder agreed to a seven-year, $43 million contract with an $8.6 million signing bonus for the longtime Jacksonville Jaguars (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/clubhouse?team=jac) quarterback."

I think I understand this deal now. Gibbs has been out of the league so long, he assumed that any players represented by Leigh Steinberg must be the cream of the crop in the NFL. Unfortunately, it's no longer 1993. Seriously, has anyone heard from Leigh Steinberg since the "Show me the money!' movie, which was supposedly based on his life? At one point, I think he had Aikman, Moon, and Young. It appears Brunell is all that is leftover.

Of course, after winning that non-compete case a couple of years ago, I guess he really doesn't need much work these days.

JAG

02-20-2004, 07:23 AM

Actually, I just saw an article that said something like, "After a few year hiatus, Steinberg has gotten involved again with the QB's in this draft..." It then went on to say that he's representing 4 or 5 of the top 6 or so QB's in the draft (not Eli Manning though, I believe).

EDIT: Found it (Sporting News): "After laying low for a couple of years, agent Leigh Steinbertg is back in the quarterback business in a big way. In the 2004 draft, he is representing Miami (Ohio)'s Ben Roethlisberger, Kentucky's Jared Lorenzen, Tennesee's Casey Clausen, Wyoming's Casey Bramlet, and Stanford's Chris Lewis."

Er, make it more like ONE of the top 5-6 QB's. Nevermind me...

Ksyrup

02-20-2004, 07:25 AM

Don't call it a comeback...

Francis_Cole

02-20-2004, 07:26 AM

Ramsey was going to be no chad, but he certainly was a good prospect.
I agree with ksyrup, I think they are aiming to win it all soon, maybe at a cost of long term players.. they could maybe get a 1st/2nd rounder for ramey and get a big impact player...

Subby

02-20-2004, 07:37 AM

They aren't trading Ramsey, so get that out of your head right now.

Brunell is prone to injury and Ramsey suddenly becomes one of the top 3 backup QBs in the league...

Also - if they were trying to win it all right now, they wouldn't be shopping Champ.

For better or worse, Gibbs loves veteran QBs. Gibbs is not an ulterior motives guy. He is not Parcells. What he says is what he is going to do. I may not agree with the Brunell signing, but I think Gibbs certainly deserves the benefit of the doubt here...

AgPete

02-20-2004, 07:40 AM

Also - if they were trying to win it all right now, they wouldn't be shopping Champ.

Sorry, but to give up a 3rd round pick and sign an old gimipy quarterback to that kind of money tells me the Skins are either trying to win all now or Gibbs has forgotten about this new fangled salary cap that wasn't around in his days. ;)

Subby

02-20-2004, 07:44 AM

Sorry, but to give up a 3rd round pick and sign an old gimipy quarterback to that kind of money tells me the Skins are either trying to win all now or Gibbs has forgotten about this new fangled salary cap that wasn't around in his days. ;) The deal is for 7 years and is cap-friendly. 3rd round picks are overrated. Plenty of QBs have success at Brunell's age.

I have an issue with benching Ramsey in favor of Brunell, but the financial aspects of the deal and the parameters of the trade sound good to me...

AgPete

02-20-2004, 07:47 AM

The deal is for 7 years and is cap-friendly. 3rd round picks are overrated. Plenty of QBs have success at Brunell's age.

I have an issue with benching Ramsey in favor of Brunell, but the financial aspects of the deal and the parameters of the trade sound good to me...

I don't know, most teams don't bother with a quarterback like that when they already have a good prospect like Ramsey. Neil O'Donnell was considered one of the best and most expensive backup QBs for a few years behind McNair. That gives you an idea how much teams invest in two quarterbacks these days. If I were the Skins, I'd be worried about that defensive line before I went after Brunell.

Ksyrup

02-20-2004, 07:48 AM

<TABLE class=tborder cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=thead style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal">Today, 07:23 AM </TD><TD class=thead style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal" align=right>#9 (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showpost.php?p=386582&postcount=9) </TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD class=alt1 width=175>Subby (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/member.php?u=5)<SCRIPT type=text/javascript> vbmenu_register("postmenu_386582", true); </SCRIPT>

SuperGay
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http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/images/misc/im_aim.gif (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?p=386634#) http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/images/misc/im_yahoo.gif (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?p=386634#)

</TD><TD class=alt2>This is a horrible signing.

HORRIBLE.

I was going to try and justify it and put a good "mentor" spin on it, but I got nothin'...

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<TABLE class=tborder cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=thead id=currentPost style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal">Today, 08:44 AM </TD><TD class=thead style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal" align=right>#17 (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showpost.php?p=386634&postcount=17) </TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD class=alt1 width=175>Subby (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/member.php?u=5)<SCRIPT type=text/javascript> vbmenu_register("postmenu_386634", true); </SCRIPT>

SuperGay
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</TD><TD class=alt2>Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt1 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by AgPete

Sorry, but to give up a 3rd round pick and sign an old gimipy quarterback to that kind of money tells me the Skins are either trying to win all now or Gibbs has forgotten about this new fangled salary cap that wasn't around in his days. http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
The deal is for 7 years and is cap-friendly. 3rd round picks are overrated. Plenty of QBs have success at Brunell's age.

I have an issue with benching Ramsey in favor of Brunell, but the financial aspects of the deal and the parameters of the trade sound good to me...

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Wait...What happened in the past 81 minutes?!

Subby

02-20-2004, 07:51 AM

Wait...What happened in the past 81 minutes?! I am not happy with them signing Brunell to start in place of Ramsey. That does not mean I think Brunell is not a good QB or that I think the 'Skins didn't get him for a bargain price...

The_herd

02-20-2004, 08:20 AM

ESPN insider is saying that Brunell and his agent were initially seeking a 4 year deal, however, it was Washington looking for a longer deal in order to make it more cap friendly.

I agree with Subby, a 3rd round pick isn't a big deal, 1st and 2nd round picks are where you get your value. Benching Ramsey is a mistake. Most NFL people believe the 3rd year is when you can usually tell what a QB has, and Ramsey will in all likelyhood spend that year on the bench pouting.

JAG

02-20-2004, 08:22 AM

Considering that no other team could even set up a parameter for a deal, I think the Skins overpaid (tradewise, not salarywise) for him. 3rd round picks overrated? Come on, a 3rd round pick these days should be starting for your team the first or second year. This also means the Skins will have only 6 draft picks in the past two years combined. They better hope they're win soon because it might be a while before they get the chance to do so again...

Arles

02-20-2004, 08:36 AM

Someone needs to work on that NFL trade AI. I wonder what people would think of TPF or FOF if a CPU team traded a 3rd round pick for a 33-year old injury prone QB that never had more than 20 TDs in season and got a $8.6 million SB. Not to mention the fact that the team already had one of the young and promising QBs in the league. ;)

The_herd

02-20-2004, 08:38 AM

Ksyrup

02-20-2004, 08:40 AM

I haven't followed this story as closely as our Redskins fans have, but the last I read, Ramsey was dead set against staying if they traded for Brunell. Has that changed, or is there some optimism that they can change his mind - like, by whispering in his ear that Brunell will probably be out by week 4 with an injury?

Subby

02-20-2004, 08:43 AM

Ramsey doesn't have a choice. He is under contract through 2006.

Subby

02-20-2004, 08:44 AM

Ksyrup

02-20-2004, 08:51 AM

Ramsey doesn't have a choice. He is under contract through 2006.
He could make things unpleasant. I thought I read that his agent had already approached Washington about a trade.

JAG

02-20-2004, 09:13 AM

Well, the guys they traded those picks for had pretty good seasons last year, so I don't think it is that big of a deal...

? Trung Candidate? They're talking about cutting him now (I think he was a 4th and a 6th). I think I'd rather taken a crapshoot with a 5th round pick than use it on Chad Morton (not to mention his $2.5 million signing bonus). I'll give you the kicker and their guard who had a Pro Bowl season.

Personally I'd rather look a little more long-term however. If you hit on a draft pick, you basically get a good player for a good period of time (4-5 years) for a dirt-cheap price compared to what they would fetch on the open market. Snyder paid the guard (his name escapes me currently) as if he was going to be a Pro Bowler every year. Hey, maybe he will be. But you can't pay every position on the team that way, and so the Skins were very weak at DL last year. Cheap draft picks can give a team more flexibility in who they sign for other areas of the team. Just my two cents.

Ramsey supposedly is pretty unhappy about the arrangement with Brunell, but I can't see the Skins letting him go. Ramsey doesn't really have any options other than holding out and I'd be shocked to see that happen. Give up $1 million plus to ride the pine until Brunell gets hurt vs. getting fined for not being in camp etc.? He can complain all he wants, but I don't see him going anywhere.

QuikSand

02-20-2004, 09:23 AM

I think the Redskins have targeted 2007 as the "go to cap jail" year where they expect to eat the big bites of a number of contracts. In the modern NFL, it's really not a ridiculous idea to plan for a one year cap hell, and try to do your best in the time between now and then. To use the same example everyone does, look how the Ravens got out from their abominable cap hell in just one year, following a one season attempt at defending their title.

Ksyrup

02-20-2004, 09:29 AM

That would make sense, and would probably coincide with Gibbs' exit the year before.

Franklinnoble

02-20-2004, 10:53 AM

You know, everyone around here talks like they know something Joe Gibbs doesn't.

"He's out of touch... he doesn't understand the salary cap... blah, blah, blah."

Are you REALLY thinking about this? Do you honestly think that 7,000 hours in front of the computer playing FOF and TCY and reading Len Pasquirelli columns really makes you more tuned-in to the realities of today's NFL than Joe Gibbs? Do you really believe that he has no idea what the implications of this signing might be in regards to the salary cap, Ramsey's psyche, team chemistry, etc? It's not like the man has been living in communist China for the last 12 years and is being handed over the keys to a 900 million dollar sports franchise with no idea how to operate it.

Brunell gives the Redskins a "known good" quarterback. Quarterback is the most important position in football. Ramsey MIGHT be a good quarterback, but nobody knows that for sure yet. Why is this a bad deal?

Sure, Ramsey's agent is going to raise a stink, demand a trade, etc. It's his job to be a pain in the ass. But Ramsey is under contract through 2006. He's not going to hold out for three seasons waiting for the Redskins to trade him. He'll compete with Brunell in camp for the job. If he beats him, so be it. Brunell can't bitch, because he's got his money. If Brunell wins the job, great. Ramsey rides the pine as a very solid backup, and learns the ropes under the best possible tutelage. The Redskins have a shot to win NOW, and they still have their QB of the future, if Ramsey really does turn out to be any good.

Barring any great catastrophe, this looks like a good move to me. I'm sick of watching the Redskins re-build. I'm sick of waiting for players to develop. I'm sick of being "one or two years away." The f*cking RAMS won a Super Bowl. The f*cking PATRIOTS won TWO Super Bowls. The f*cking BUCCANEERS have won a Super Bowl. Screw this rebuild shit. It's time to grab the bull by the f*cking balls and win a goddamned title.

Subby

02-20-2004, 11:02 AM

This is the best Franklinnoble post in history.

JAG

02-20-2004, 11:03 AM

AgPete

02-20-2004, 11:12 AM

FN, when have the Redskins tried to rebuild? They've signed almost every big name free agent under the sun for the past four years. After seeing the wonderful results of that, I think the faster way for them to get a title would be to try to spend money and draft picks a little more prudently than they have been. How much was Jake Delhomme last year? There are good players for cheap prices, but apparently the Skins don't even try to find them.

Exactly. But to be fair, I think was Gibbs all the way and had nothing to do with Snyder and his addiction to high profile free agents.

I agree with you Frank, Gibbs is a freaking genius and he was a damn good coach ten years ago, so I don't see why he wouldn't be now. It just seems like an odd move to me. Like I posted at the very top of this thread, this signifies to me that Gibbs knows something we don't about Ramsey and the Skins 2004 chances. You don't sign someone like this unless you intend on winning next year. Hey, just like that NFL commercial, everyone said at the beginning of last season that Parcells would take the Cowboys to the Playoffs..... in 2008. :p Maybe Gibbs is going to turn the Skins around in one season. It's not that hard to do anymore. The early 90's Super Bowl teams would roll over any of the last few Super Bowl champions. This league is the CFL for old timers like Gibbs that won Super Bowls back in the days of dynasties.

Butter

02-20-2004, 11:21 AM

Brunell and Ramsey both will bust.

Hope you like Tim Hasslebeck.

Franklinnoble

02-20-2004, 11:23 AM

FN, when have the Redskins tried to rebuild? They've signed almost every big name free agent under the sun for the past four years. After seeing the wonderful results of that, I think the faster way for them to get a title would be to try to spend money and draft picks a little more prudently than they have been. How much was Jake Delhomme last year? There are good players for cheap prices, but apparently the Skins don't even try to find them.

Jake Delhomme doesn't have a Super Bowl ring.

The Redskins have been floundering under poor leadership for the last dozen years since Gibbs left. The man won a Super Bowl in his second season as a head football coach in 1983. He went to three more and won two of them. He's in the hall of fame (is there another active coach in the HOF?) He signs a veteran QB to compete with the 3rd year darling Ramsey, and all of a sudden, the honeymoon is over, and everyone's saying Gibbs is an idiot and Snyder is obviously still calling all the shots around Redskins park and trying to build a rotisserie team like he did four years ago.

rkmsuf

02-20-2004, 11:23 AM

I like Elizabeth Filarski...

HornedFrog Purple

02-20-2004, 12:20 PM

Screw this rebuild shit. It's time to grab the bull by the f*cking balls and win a goddamned title.

Try beating the Cowboys first, then worry about loftier goals...

JAG

02-20-2004, 12:22 PM

Jake Delhomme doesn't have a Super Bowl ring.

The Redskins have been floundering under poor leadership for the last dozen years since Gibbs left. The man won a Super Bowl in his second season as a head football coach in 1983. He went to three more and won two of them. He's in the hall of fame (is there another active coach in the HOF?) He signs a veteran QB to compete with the 3rd year darling Ramsey, and all of a sudden, the honeymoon is over, and everyone's saying Gibbs is an idiot and Snyder is obviously still calling all the shots around Redskins park and trying to build a rotisserie team like he did four years ago.

Peyton Manning and Dan Marino don't have Super Bowl rings and I still think they're pretty good QB's. I'm not saying Delhomme is a god, just that he ended up being a bargain at a position that's usually pretty expensive. Those types of players are on the FA market. Look at who the Patriots pick up every year. They're back page items to who the Redskins sign, but who makes the playoffs?

For what it's worth, I've never said Gibbs is an idiot. I think he'll turn the Redskins around quickly (probably this year). He pretty much wins where he goes. But I think this deal for Brunell can be compared with other moves Snyder has done. It's not that Brunell isn't a good player at an important position, it's that the cost was to get him ($8.6 mil bonus plus salary numbers plus 3rd round pick) will preclude the Redskins from getting the players they need at other positions like the defensive line. They could've signed a QB comparable to Brunell (at this stage in his career) in the FA market for no draft choice compensation and probably less money.