RL Franchise Movement

[CraigSca]

Something occurred to me in the "Atlanta Falcons Change Home Uniforms" Thread. Someone mentioned the need for the Colts to change their uniforms, and someone else expressed the only change they really need is to play on grass. Someone then said something regarding Art Donovan playing on Astroturf. As you'll see below, I consider Art Donovan to be a Baltimore Colt - the Indianapolis Colts and Baltimore Colts are two entirely different things.

I was born and raised in Baltimore, and when the Colts left when I was 15, I was devastated. The thing is, I still haven't been able to get over it. I know, pathetic, right? Sure, the Ravens are in town now, but I still consider them the Browns in purple uniforms. I still love the Colts uniforms (probably because I grew up with them) but I can't relate to them in any way because they were "stolen" by the Irsays from Baltimore.

So...here are my questions. Obviously franchise movement wasn't invented in the last 20 years. Were there people like me in the 50's who had their franchise move and still couldn't deal with it 20 years later? How do Houston Oiler fans react to the Houston Texans? I hate to turn elitist - but is this feeling only expressed by Baltimoreans because of the unique circumstances surrounding the Colts move (e.g. Johnny Unitas refused to have anything to do with the Colts once they left)?

-Craig

[cthomer5000]

I've been very closely following the Houston Texans since Houston was awarded the 32nd team. They appear to have been very well received. Almost all the fans are ex-Oilers fans who seem to really miss that team, and absoultey hate the Titans.

If they had their choice, Bud Adams would be tortured and killed as a halftime celebration.

[clintl]

Lots of Northern Californians still hate the Raiders for moving to LA, even though they came back.

[Wolfpack]

Seems interesting that when the NFL went to 32 and split into eight divisions, that two divisions would contain teams that had moved and the teams that replaced them after the move: Oilers move to Tennessee, Houston gets the Texans, and both are placed in the AFC South; Browns move to Baltimore, Cleveland get replacement Browns, both are placed in the AFC North (though I understand Modell wanted this). And, of course, with the Colts and Ravens in the same conference, they end up playing in Baltimore every so often now. Is there an animous in Cleveland towards the Ravens franchise (excluding Modell, who is beyond hated there, I think) that matches the Baltimore hatred of losing the Colts or the Houston hatred of Tennessee?

[sterlingice]

I've been very closely following the Houston Texans since Houston was awarded the 32nd team. They appear to have been very well received. Almost all the fans are ex-Oilers fans who seem to really miss that team, and absoultey hate the Titans.

If they had their choice, Bud Adams would be tortured and killed as a halftime celebration.
I loved the Oilers and I just don't feel the connection to the Texans. I like them but since I'm removed from Houston, I don't feel a part of the fanbase like if the Oilers were still around. :(

Oh, and I second the Bud Adams torturing and killing.

SI

[Noble_Platypus]

I think that people in Baltimore should get over it. I dont hear anybody bitching about them stealing the browns from Cleveland. Plus, that the only time team colors and uniforms stayed behind, and that was negotiated before they left. The Cardinals kept their uniforms, even though the Rams are in St Louis now. Shout the Rams have been forced to take the Crdinal uniforms and make Az pick something new. Its been 20 years , get over it.

[judicial clerk]

I bet that there are more NFL franchises that have moved than have stayed in one spot. And the ones that have not moved are probalby mostly younger franchises.

[Noble_Platypus]

Oh, and as far as the old Colts not liking the move, thats fair. But the crap about them wanting to be in the HOF in Ravens stuff because the Ravena re in Baltimore now is assinine. Show me a pictire of Unitas or Donovan wearing a Ravens uniform at any point in their career. Team records and team uniforms belong to the team, not the city.

[Noble_Platypus]

http://www.colts.com/sub.cfm?page=history

On January 23, 1953, under the principal ownership of Carroll Rosenbloom, the NFL’s Dallas Team franchise was moved to Baltimore where, keeping the “Colts” nickname, the Texas team colors of blue and white were inherited.

Before their first NFL season, the “new” Baltimore Colts engineered one of the biggest trades in sports history. In a deal with the Cleveland Browns involving 15 players, Baltimore received 10 Browns in exchange for five Colts. Among the players who came to Baltimore in the deal were Don Shula, Bert Rechichar, Carl Taseff and Art Spinney.

Maybe the fans in Dallas should be bitching to have the team name back.

[cuervo72]

The natural order of the universe should have the Colts in Baltimore, the Cardinals in St. Louis, the Rams in LA, and the Titans back in Houston as the Oilers.

Oh, and those New York teams should stop playing in Jersey.

[Scholes]

The Minnesota hockey fans love the Wild... they've sold out every game for three seasons and lead the league in merchandising sales.

They don't necessarily hate the Dallas Stars, just their former owner, Norm Green, who moved the North Stars there. It's sad to see Mike Modano get booed when he comes to town... he really had nothing to do with the move, and I think it's impressive that he's still with that organization. Quick... how many hockey players that started in 1990 are still with the franchise they began with? I can think of Joe Sakic... that's about all off of the top of my head.

North Stars apparel is still widly popular, I sell it at my store and we can't keep it on the shelves. I'll admit that the North Stars didn't draw very well at the end of their run here, and something needed to be done. Many were shocked that such a great hockey state would lose a team, but in the end there wasn't a ton of local support for them. I'm not saying a move was needed, in fact I still think it was wrong, but something needed to be done to ignite the fans again. I just hope the same thing doesn't happen with the Wild.

[stevew]

I know I hate the Ravens cause they used to be the Browns. That and Ray Lewis.

[cuervo72]

Quick... how many hockey players that started in 1990 are still with the franchise they began with? I can think of Joe Sakic... that's about all off of the top of my head.

When did Chris Therien come into the league?

edit: guess it was only the '94-'95 season....

[RedKingGold]

Noble,

I don't think its fair to relate franchise moves from the 1950's to the ones that occured after 1980. The "Dallas Texans" that Rosenbloom bought were originally the Miami Seahawks of the AAFC. They struggled greatly financially and as a team and were nearly disbanded and liquidated. In fact, their equipment had already been sold off to pay off older debts. Caroll Rosenbloom (although not exactly a hero) saved the future Baltimore Colts from not existing. However, shortly after winning Super Bowl V, Irsay complained about Memorial Stadium and engineered the first and only "franchise swap" in sports history. Bob Irsay bought the Los Angeles Rams from the estate of (Dan?) Reeves (who had died) and traded them with (I think) 15 million dollars to Rosenbloom for the Colts. In a taste of irony, both the Rams (L.A. to Anaheim) and the Colts (Baltimore to Indianapolis) happened in the 1980's. Of course, this run for stadium money was all started by the man in black, Al Davis"

And now you know, the rest of the story

[sterlingice]

Quick... how many hockey players that started in 1990 are still with the franchise they began with? I can think of Joe Sakic... that's about all off of the top of my head.
I'm thinking a couple already mentioned in this thread (Brodeur, Modano) are close. Isn't Luc Robitialle back with LA? Then again, that's cheating since he's had 2 or 3 other stops. Then some Detroit guys like Yzerman, McCarty, and Lidstrom come to mind, but that's about it and I'm not sure even those guys all qualify.

SI

[CraigSca]

I think that people in Baltimore should get over it. I dont hear anybody bitching about them stealing the browns from Cleveland. Plus, that the only time team colors and uniforms stayed behind, and that was negotiated before they left. The Cardinals kept their uniforms, even though the Rams are in St Louis now. Shout the Rams have been forced to take the Crdinal uniforms and make Az pick something new. Its been 20 years , get over it.

Noble, that's why I made my initial post. Two wrongs don't make a right (the taking of the Browns to make up for the Colts). I'm just wondering if the bizarre circumstances surrounding the Colts move (under the darkness of night, etc) made me less likely to accept the new state of the NFL than if it happened some other way.

Or...do most people have fond memories of growing up in their early teens and want their sports leagues to remain static from that point in time? I admit, when I make a fictional league in FOF, it's not really fictional - but I move the Colts back to Baltimore, the Oilers are in Houston, the Cardinals are in St. Lous, the Rams are in LA. In OOTP, I always make 26 team leagues circa the 1980s. Maybe it's just me...

[Scholes]

I forgot about Yzerman.

[cthomer5000]

Oh, and those New York teams should stop playing in Jersey.


this same boring complaint. I'm sure there are teams in the league that play farther from their stated name than the Jets and Giants do from New York.

Just because they do so across an imaginary line, people make the same annoying comment. Where's the outcry over the Dallas Cowboys? they play in Irving. I'm sure it's just about the same distance as East Rutherford to NYC.

[cuervo72]

Last time I checked, Irving was still in Texas....

[Noble_Platypus]

Then why not the Irving Cowboys?

[cthomer5000]

Last time I checked, Irving was still in Texas....

yes, but they aren't the Texas Cowboys. They are the Dallas Cowboys.

If that transgression is acceptable, why is playing the same distance from your home base (The Cowboys, Jets, and Giants all play roughly 12 miles from their named location) fine as long as it's within that state? What's the difference?

[rkmsuf]

The Patriots have cornered all of New England...

[cuervo72]

So it would be ok for the Philadelphia Eagles to play in Camden, NJ?

[cthomer5000]

The Patriots have cornered all of New England...

and Carolina also gave themselves room to roam.

[yabanci]

I'm still pissed that Oakland stole the Raiders from Los Angeles, but since Los Angeles stole them from Oakland in the first place it makes it hard to be too angry. Hopefully we can steal them back sometime soon.

[cthomer5000]

So it would be ok for the Philadelphia Eagles to play in Camden, NJ?

Wouldn't bother me in the least. Apparently it would drive you insane though. :)

I just think it's a silly argument you (and all others) present. For some reason you're fine with a team playing elsewhere than their name would have you believe... but making it out of state is outrageous... even if the distance is identical.

[cuervo72]

I just like needling New Yorkers (and wannabe New Yorkers in North Jersey).

:D

[cthomer5000]

I just like needling New Yorkers (and wannabe New Yorkers in North Jersey).

:D

Well, i live in Central Jersey... and I detest New York (even though I work there). As soon as a relocation is financially viable I'll be heading out of the NYC area (and New Jersey as well). ;)

I just think the "hey, they don't play in New York" argument is pretty weak overall.

[cuervo72]

Ok....that's excusable then!

[Young Drachma]

Before the Flyers and Sixers got their new arena, they wanted to move across the river to South Jersey. The governor at the time (Whitman) said they wouldn't change their names, they couldn't move to Jersey.

Interesting note.

[rkmsuf]

Glad they held out for the FU Center...

[cuervo72]

Before the Flyers and Sixers got their new arena, they wanted to move across the river to South Jersey. The governor at the time (Whitman) said they wouldn't change their names, they couldn't move to Jersey.

Interesting note.

That's partly why I brought it up (I grew up just NE of Philly).

[JeeberD]

Where's the outcry over the Dallas Cowboys? they play in Irving. I'm sure it's just about the same distance as East Rutherford to NYC.

Just an FYI, but Jerry Jones is trying really hard to get a new stadium/complex for the team called Dallas Cowboys Park. It would have a new state of the art stadium, fields and parks for youth and intrumural sports leagues, a hotel, the "Cowboys Experience" (an Interactive Sports Entertainment Experience), and Legends Square ("Designed with a town center environment, Legends Square will feature a diversity of engaging eateries and restaurants, and sports experiences anchored by Cowboys branded attractions.")

Sites for the project have been scouted all over the metroplex, but it looks like the current leader is the Fair Park area (in Dallas itself), where the Cotton Bowl and the state fair are currently held.

Click on the link to read more about Jerry Jones' wet dream...

Dallas Cowboys Park (http://www.dallascowboyspark.com/cowboyspark.cfm)

[rpommier]

How do Houston Oiler fans react to the Houston Texans? I hate to turn elitist - but is this feeling only expressed by Baltimoreans because of the unique circumstances surrounding the Colts move (e.g. Johnny Unitas refused to have anything to do with the Colts once they left)?
-Craig

I've been getting into the Texans more than I thought I would actually... I was in Germany (USAF), when the team left. I was a die-hard Oiler fan, had my maids-room in my quarters decked out in Houston gear. I was bitter when the Titans made it the Superbowl with a good amount of the old Oilers... I still remember listening to AFN radio and thinking it was some sick joke when the Bills came back on them with a freakin' backup QB!

Anyway I'm over it and love what Caserly and Capers are building in Houston...

Roderick

[Desnudo]

Something occurred to me in the "Atlanta Falcons Change Home Uniforms" Thread. Someone mentioned the need for the Colts to change their uniforms, and someone else expressed the only change they really need is to play on grass. Someone then said something regarding Art Donovan playing on Astroturf. As you'll see below, I consider Art Donovan to be a Baltimore Colt - the Indianapolis Colts and Baltimore Colts are two entirely different things.

I was born and raised in Baltimore, and when the Colts left when I was 15, I was devastated. The thing is, I still haven't been able to get over it. I know, pathetic, right? Sure, the Ravens are in town now, but I still consider them the Browns in purple uniforms. I still love the Colts uniforms (probably because I grew up with them) but I can't relate to them in any way because they were "stolen" by the Irsays from Baltimore.

So...here are my questions. Obviously franchise movement wasn't invented in the last 20 years. Were there people like me in the 50's who had their franchise move and still couldn't deal with it 20 years later? How do Houston Oiler fans react to the Houston Texans? I hate to turn elitist - but is this feeling only expressed by Baltimoreans because of the unique circumstances surrounding the Colts move (e.g. Johnny Unitas refused to have anything to do with the Colts once they left)?

-Craig

Different sport, but the most infamous move of all time is the Brooklyn Dodgers to LA. People of a certain age are still bitter about it all these years later.

[Wolfpack]

I wonder how Montgomery felt when it lost the Confederate Capital to Richmond due to better amenities and better communication with the players on the team, not to mention the owner's chance to stick it to the rival US by butting into the Washington market?

[cincyreds]

The only NFL team on my list to change their uniforms are those dreaded "Arizona Cardinal" uniforms.....YUCK!

Those should have been changed a long time ago.

[cthomer5000]

The only NFL team on my list to change their uniforms are those dreaded "Arizona Cardinal" uniforms.....YUCK!

Those should have been changed a long time ago.

I think they are among the best in the league.

[rpommier]

Anyone ever research uniform changes and winning?

Denver
Tampa
Oilers/Tennessee
Philadelphia
Baltimore (got rid of the shields)
New England

Roderick

[Hammer755]

Similar to the other guys relate, the locals here love the Texans, still have a certain fondness for the Titans (especially guys that played here like George and McNair), and absolutely despise Bud Adams. There is a sizable base of people that hate the Titans, I guess they hold the entire organization responsible for the relocation.