FOF 2004 5.0d - Free Agency Problems [Archive] - Front Office Football Central

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QuikSand

02-24-2004, 10:53 AM

I don't have a single thing to contribute to this discussion (yet), but I'm having a tough time following everything that is being discussed on this topic, since it's showing up in a variety of different places.

As I understand it, the adjustments made to the free agency process as the game was patched from 5.0b to 5.0c significantly altered the free agency market - at least upon first glance. (Jim has apparently confirmed that the big change was in patch C - so "downgrading" from D to C doesn't address this issue, if that's your plan) There seems to be some evidence that this is partially or wholly due to the widespread use of "custom rosters" generated by outside utilities - and might not be a big deal in the basic game itself. There's also some suggestion that this is a short term issue, which goes away after a generation of players or so (15 years?).

I can't vouch for any of this - just trying to summarize what I have read elsewhere.

Can we perhaps use this thread as a central place for what we have seen and what we know on the topic? (Even links to other discussions would be fine) I'd like to make it as simple as possible for someone from the vast office complex at Solecismic headquarters to be able to tap into the results that these many fingers have generated out here in text-sim land.

So... what do we know?

fantastic flying froggies

02-24-2004, 10:57 AM

A very good suggestion QS as I, for one, am utterly and thoroughly confused on the whole subject...

Any clarifications will be more than welcome.

Ben E Lou

02-24-2004, 11:14 AM

I am working on a test right now as a matter of fact. I'll post what I've seen so far in a sec...

QuikSand

02-24-2004, 11:16 AM

This is a thread launching a good deal of discussion on this topic... but not the only place that I have seen it brought up.

http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?t=21936

Ben E Lou

02-24-2004, 11:17 AM

The core potential problems that have been mentioned are:

Too many good free agents still available after late free agency
Too much roster turnover (still) for the liking of some

Those who believe that the first one is a major problem usually theorize that it is a result of the top players asking for too much money.

I am fast-running a career (only doing 1st/2nd round picks and signing a few starters for free agency) using these settings:

1. Default Rosters
2. Injuries=200
3. Inflation= 2.8-->8.0

Here are the results so far:

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BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=36>Max</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 24pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=32>>80</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 29pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=38>70-79</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 29pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=38>60-69</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 28pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=37>50-59</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>2004</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>19</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>26</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>0</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>0</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>0</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>0</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>2005</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>18</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>28</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>0</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>0</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>1</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>1</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>2006</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>17</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>29</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>0</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>0</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>0</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>0</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>2007</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>17</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>31</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>0</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>0</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>1</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>2</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>2008</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>16</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>29</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>0</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>3</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>4</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>7</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>2009</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>15</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>27</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>0</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>3</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>2</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>4</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>2010</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>14</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>29</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>2</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>5</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>0</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>3</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>2011</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>15</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>29</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>0</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>3</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>2</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>6</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>2012</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>16</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>28</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>0</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>0</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>1</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>6</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>2013</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>14</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>26</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>1</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>3</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>3</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>7</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>2014</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>14</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>27</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>0</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>1</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>1</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>4</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>2015</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>12</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>27</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>0</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>2</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>1</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>5</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

"Min" is the lowest number of players on a roster at the beginning of free agency and "max" is the highest number of players on a roster (not my team) at the beginning of free agency. The last four columns represent the number of players available in those ratings ranges after the 8-stage process is finished. I did not include P/K's or injured players in those numbers. The key seasons are coming up, it would seem. I'm going pretty fast and have some time the rest of this afternoon, so I expect to be through another 10 seasons or so in a relatively short time.

Ben E Lou

02-24-2004, 11:24 AM

Here's a key post on this issue from the 5.0d thread from Jim:

Thanks for the support. By risky, I meant that I probably would have heard of crashes by now if something went wrong. There's nothing in 5.0d that should cause anyone to think of staying on 5.0c. The big change in AI FA acquisition was from 5.0b to 5.0c.

Teams in the NFL seem to have a core of 20-30 players that they keep for more than a year. Some go as small as 16 in retention, others as high as 32. Obviously, FOF 2004 is retaining fewer players. If that's what it takes to maintain a competitive AI, that's okay with me. I'll have to see how this issue plays out over the next week or so before I make any decisions on how to proceed.

QuikSand

02-24-2004, 11:32 AM

Adding some speculation into the mix...

I wonder what the best result for these "top grade" free agents would be? If people are complaining that superstar players are demanding too much money in the game right now (I don't know if I agree that this is true) maybe the best in-game solution would be this:

As the FA process continues, players who don't receive offers in their target area should make two adjustments:

#1 - They should more rapidly "get realistic" with their salary demands. Currently, players in FOF 2004 ajdust their demands downward, but only pretty modestly. Maybe seeing demands drop by around 50% or even more over the 20 week period would create a more workable environment?

#2 - They should start to focus more on a short term deal rather than a long term deal. Currently in FOF 2004 it seems that nearly ever player is willing to sign for either a 1yr, 2yr, or 3yr deal at about the same $/yr... and that some star players are willing to accept lucrative deals for longer periods. Maybe player demands should adjust in terms of time as well as money - especially for younger players. A 5th year player, who doesn't get the $5m/yr deal he wants ought to look at a $2m deal... but probably only for one year, maybe two.

I don't think either of these is exactly groundbreaking stuff... but they ought to be part of this discussion, I think.

Ben E Lou

02-24-2004, 11:35 AM

A couple more observations from the career above (just so I don't forget as I go along)

1. In the last 2 years, nearly half of the players tracked on the spreadsheet above have been centers. I don't know if this is going to be a trend or not, but it is worth writing down at least.

2. The distribution between the minimum number of players kept and maximum seems to be pretty even.

Buzzbee

02-24-2004, 11:42 AM

SD - Game generated rosters or 3rd party rosters? I'm assuming HR's utility generated rosters.

Lucky Jim

02-24-2004, 11:46 AM

I think he said default rosters.

I've also noticed that the majority of these "great" players left in free agency are not at premium positions. Centers or Guards for the most part, maybe an RB or QB occasionally, but not as a rule.

Ben E Lou

02-24-2004, 11:48 AM

SD - Game generated rosters or 3rd party rosters? I'm assuming HR's utility generated rosters.

1. Default Rosters
There ya go.

Ben E Lou

02-24-2004, 11:49 AM

2016 Update

Rosters: 13-->27

4 players 50-59 available at end of late free agency, and none any better. Didn't check positions, but henceforth I'll start looking at Lucky Jim's assertion.

amdaily

02-24-2004, 11:53 AM

I just typed up a long post on the subject and lost it :(. Off to retype...

SkyDog,

Can you track the number of players that a team carries after the 8 step process. It's been my experience that teams will go with as low as 26 players at that point, then fill the roster with 1 year deals to stars post training camp and a dozen or so undrafted free agents.

This is one reason that I feel the changes to the FA system made the AI less agressive to an extent (wish I had patch B to compare). And that does make sense considering half the league will have over $6 million in cap money left after the 8 step process, but not have more than 26 players.

Ben E Lou

02-24-2004, 11:55 AM

Buzzbee

02-24-2004, 11:56 AM

The core potential problems that have been mentioned are:

I am fast-running a career (only doing 1st/2nd round picks and signing a few starters for free agency) using these settings:

1. Default Rosters
2. Injuries=200
3. Inflation= 2.8-->8.0

*Cleans glasses*

Oh, there it is.

amdaily

02-24-2004, 11:59 AM

Just to clarify: you mean the number that they have on the roster right before training camp?Yes. I find it odd that some teams will have over $10 million in cap room going into training camp, yet only have 30 players on there roster. Why didn't they pursue free agents? This would seem to indicate the free Agent AI isn't agressive enough.

And as for high salaries, it is a proven fact as far as I'm concerned. In the other thread I posted a comparison between the NFL and FOF. The main finding was the the NFL has 2 players making $10 million per year while FOF has 21 (league wide). No wonder "very good" players requesting $3-4 million a year won't be signed in FA - some teams have upwards of 42% of the cap room invested in 2 players.

Dutch

02-24-2004, 12:07 PM

#1 - They should more rapidly "get realistic" with their salary demands. Currently, players in FOF 2004 ajdust their demands downward, but only pretty modestly. Maybe seeing demands drop by around 50% or even more over the 20 week period would create a more workable environment?

If this could be added to the difficulty settings so that the AI see's this option a couple of phases before the human player, it could really begin to make the FA process more challenging as well as more realistic. The AI should receive some sort of "help" on a user defined basis with this regard. Simply allowing the contracts to go down in price drastically could hurt the overall engine if the AI doesn't act on it before the player does.

Basically, I think making their prices cheaper allows them the AI to fill out their team better, but would probably cause us to install another house rule to avoid us from getting all the good guys cheap (before the AI even considers them, which would be post FA, I presume unless they become more aggressive during FA to hunt for good deals).

Ben E Lou

02-24-2004, 12:31 PM

I think we may be onto something here. I think I mentioned this in my dynasty thread. It appears that some teams don't sign any free agents at all some years. The range in this area is pretty large in 2017. At one extreme, Chicago goes into training camp with 50 players signed, and $28.88M in cap room (almost 20% of the cap). On the other end is Denver, with 28 players under contract, and $11.92M over the cap.

Looking further at Denver, I have an odd hypothesis: is the FA routine skipping over some teams entirely? They did no renegotiations, and signed no free agents. For comparison, Cleveland renegotiated with 9 players, and signed 14 free agents (included in that number are the restricted players that they re-signed).

The teams range, at the end of the 8-step process from 28 to 52 players under contract. Most are in the 40's, which looks pretty good, but a small handful are very low.

Just looking around:

Atlanta has $5.59M in cap room, signed no free agents, and goes to camp with 34 players.

Cincinnati has $7.9M in cap room, signed no free agents, and goes into camp with 33.

Detroit has $14.16M in cap room, signed no free agents, and goes to camp with 30.

New England has $9.65M in cap room and signed none, and goes into camp with 32.

San Diego has $9.77 in cap room, signed none, and goes into camp with 34.

The six teams I've mentioned are the only ones with less than 35 players going into training camp.

Ben E Lou

02-24-2004, 12:35 PM

Sorry for the slow-down to pursue that information. Another overall good year in 2017 with regard to the number of guys still available at the end of the 8-step process. There were 2 guys >50, and one 60-69.

Dutch

02-24-2004, 12:57 PM

Just looking around:

Atlanta has $5.59M in cap room, signed no free agents, and goes to camp with 34 players.

Cincinnati has $7.9M in cap room, signed no free agents, and goes into camp with 33.

Detroit has $14.16M in cap room, signed no free agents, and goes to camp with 30.

New England has $9.65M in cap room and signed none, and goes into camp with 32.

San Diego has $9.77 in cap room, signed none, and goes into camp with 34.

The six teams I've mentioned are the only ones with less than 35 players going into training camp.

I wonder if they even made any bids. Perhaps they did, they lost, and then gave up?

Ben E Lou

02-24-2004, 01:00 PM

I wonder if they even made any bids. Perhaps they did, they lost, and then gave up?I didn't see any "turned down contract offer" comments I don't think, but I'll check this year.

Buzzbee

02-24-2004, 01:01 PM

Or could there be a flaw in the "General Manager won't allow you to spend that much" logic?

Ben E Lou

02-24-2004, 01:11 PM

I definitely think we're on to something here. After late free agency in 2018, the same thing can be observed. A small handful of teams has <35 players on the roster, and most of them have in common that they didn't sign FA's at all, and I'm pretty sure no offers were tendered. (I didn't look in detail at all five or six of the teams, but the first three I checked had made no offers.) They were different teams this year, but roughly the same number.

Ben E Lou

02-24-2004, 01:13 PM

Dola--and the huge majority of the rest of the teams for the most part had in the high 30's up to 52 players under contract at the end of late free agency. On the positive side, this year there were *zero* non-injured players with ratings >49 available after the 8-step process.

amdaily

02-24-2004, 01:19 PM

In the lastest year of my league 6 times offered no renegioations and signed no FA's in the twenty step process. However, they were the 6 teams with the least cap room.

But, there are some teams that are signing no FA's, in the 20 step or 8 step, yet have plently of cap room, although they did renegioate some contracts.

Definitely something that needs looked into more.

cthomer5000

02-24-2004, 01:25 PM

Ben E Lou

02-24-2004, 01:28 PM

Lucky Jim

02-24-2004, 01:32 PM

Buzzbee

02-24-2004, 01:33 PM

Can you take a look at the balance sheet of those 5 or 6 teams? Maybe they lost significant amounts of money the year before?

I'm finished up 2019 free agency right now. I'll check into it this year. Good thought.

I get no love. :(

Or could there be a flaw in the "General Manager won't allow you to spend that much" logic?

Ben E Lou

02-24-2004, 01:36 PM

My initial observations regarding the positions that seemed to be prevalent were based on the first few seasons of a couple new careers I've started with 5.0d. After running a long test I've got some new info. Using an HR roster set it looks like the number of players rated 60+ available after late FA explodes in the year 2008. Up until 2008 there are roughly a handful of players at non premium positions available, but beginning in 2008 the number balloons to a full page in the "reccomend" window of varying positions. This seems to be the general case until around the year 2016 when that number falls to about half. Now in the year 2020 there are 6 players available rated better than 60, one of whom is above 80, an LT. The others by position are a FB, QB, C, LCB, TE, and C. So there seems to be a big jump after the first four or so seasons and initial contracts have expired, but it also seems to correct itself around 2016, until it is back to being a small number of players. And on another note, all of those players except a 12yr QB rated 71/71 were signed after training camp, with the next best player being a 45/47 FS.It is also important to check how many of the guys still remaining were injured.

I saw similar results over roughly the same time periods, when you consider I'm not reporting injured players. Here's an update:

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BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=36>Max</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 24pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=32>>80</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 29pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=38>70-79</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 29pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=38>60-69</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 28pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=37>50-59</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>2004</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; 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Lucky Jim

02-24-2004, 01:43 PM

Good point, none of the guys in the last year I mentioned were currently injured but that 71/71 QB started only 4 games in each of the last two seasons, which would point to some injury proneness.

Ben E Lou

02-24-2004, 01:45 PM

Checking for Buzzbee and cthomer (sorry Buzzbee...missed that)

Cleveland, 33 players, signed no FA's, lost $57.43M last year, $70.33M the year before.

Green Bay, 27 players, signed no FA's, made $4.48M last year, lost $6.32M the year before. Paid a massive bonus this year when renegotiating with their star QB.

New England, 29 players, no FA's, no renegotiations this year. Lost $165.79M last year, $32.35M the year before.

Washington, 33 players, no FA's. Lost $77.87M last year. Lost $66.95M the year before.

Well, a strong case could be made for these teams not pursuing any FA's--a very strong case actually.

amdaily

02-24-2004, 01:48 PM

But conversely you can say that teams that do lose alot ($47 million this year, $118 million last year) will sign alot of FA's (8) and go into camp with a good roster (41), as Oakland did in current test league, so the bottom line profit is not the single indicator preventing some teams from pursing free agents.

amdaily

02-24-2004, 02:00 PM

Ben E Lou

02-24-2004, 02:03 PM

The first team I checked that lost lots of money the last two years did sign FA's, but they were very cheap ones. Still looking around...

Ben E Lou

02-24-2004, 02:05 PM

OK. I did find one that lost over $130M over the last two seasons that pursued FA's, so that isn't the whole story.

Ben E Lou

02-24-2004, 02:06 PM

Dola,

Out of the top 5 teams (in terms of cap room), one signed 0 free agents despite having $7.9 million in cap room available going into training camp (with only a mid second round pick holding out) and only 27 players on the roster. This team also had a positive cash flow of $6.5 million last season. So the question is, why did not they not pursue even a single FA (no turned down offers)?Did they sign any big-bonus babies in renegotation? The only one I saw that fit that profile last season gave a ton of bonus money to a star QB. Moving on to next season...

amdaily

02-24-2004, 02:07 PM

Of the two teams that signed the most FA (Baltimore and Carolina with 21), Baltimore lost $65 million and $53 million the previous seasons. Carolina lost $18 million and $17 million the the previous seasons. Of Baltimore's FA's, 8 are making over $1 million and 10 of Carolina's. I'm not seeing much of a correlation between balance sheet and free agent activity.

amdaily

02-24-2004, 02:10 PM

Did they sign any big-bonus babies in renegotation? The only one I saw that fit that profile last season gave a ton of bonus money to a star QB. Moving on to next season...They did 2 renegioations upon going into the free agency period.

1- $24.9 signing bonus over 3 years. Contract total of $31 million
2- $16.0 signing bonus over 5 years. Contract total of $29 million

Could teams that do big renegioations be the teams that are not signing free agents (in anticipation of next year's balance sheet)?

amdaily

02-24-2004, 02:15 PM

They did 2 renegioations upon going into the free agency period.

1- $24.9 signing bonus over 3 years. Contract total of $31 million
2- $16.0 signing bonus over 5 years. Contract total of $29 million

Could teams that do big renegioations be the teams that are not signing free agents (in anticipation of next year's balance sheet)?Dola,

Scratch that idea. Miami (who has lost money in the past two season's, albeit a small amount), signed the following renegioations:

1- $20.0 signing bonus over 6 years. Contract total of $57 million
2- $21.9 signing bonus over 3 years. Contract total of $28 million
3- $19.8 signing bonus over 3 years. Contract total of $27 million

Yet was active in free agency signing 10 free agents (a number that was the average for the league this particular season).

QuikSand

02-24-2004, 02:22 PM

nearly half of the players tracked on the spreadsheet above have been centers.

the majority of these "great" players left in free agency are not at premium positions. Centers or Guards for the most part...

I know it's a side issue... but about centers. Every version of FOF has had too many good centers to go around.

Can the explanation be as simple as this: the game generates the same number of players at tackle, guard, and center - notwithstanding the fact that only one center starts per team?

Ben E Lou

02-24-2004, 02:26 PM

I know it's a side issue... but about centers. Every version of FOF has had too many good centers to go around.

Can the explanation be as simple as this: the game generates the same number of players at tackle, guard, and center - notwithstanding the fact that only one center starts per team?That would be a logical explanation--and I agree that there are too many good centers.

amdaily

02-24-2004, 02:30 PM

Breakdown of 50+ rated players left after the 8 step process:

QB: 5
TE: 2
FL: 1
C: 3
RG: 1
LG: 3
LT: 1
K: 1
LCB: 2
RCB: 1

<edit> To remove injured players.

amdaily

02-24-2004, 02:35 PM

Dola,

I've been turning inflation and and off in this career (now in 2024) testing different theories and such. Right now it is off. So based on my numbers vs. SkyDog's overall numbers, inflation is another large factor in how many quality FA's are left.

This begs the question, what is the optimal inflation number? I personally hate inflation as it takes all aspect of reality out of the game after the first decade. But the way contracts are handled in FOF (as opposed to OOTP) inflation appears nessecary. What would be the lowest it could be set out without harming the AI's competitveness?

Ben E Lou

02-24-2004, 02:38 PM

amdaily

02-24-2004, 02:42 PM

QuikSand

02-24-2004, 02:52 PM

I personally hate inflation as it takes all aspect of reality out of the game after the first decade. But the way contracts are handled in FOF (as opposed to OOTP) inflation appears nessecary. What would be the lowest it could be set out without harming the AI's competitveness?

I don't think there is any evidence that setting inflation to zero has any meaningfully harmful effects. If you're all that bent out of shape about adjusting for inflation, don't use it in your game.

amdaily

02-24-2004, 03:00 PM

I think it does harm the game in relation to this free agent problem. I was getting 20 50+ rated players per season left at the end of the 8 step FA process with no inflation, while SkyDog is getting an average of 5 or thereabouts with inflation. I've turned it on in this league and will report back after 5 seasons.

Ben E Lou

02-24-2004, 03:09 PM

Should we be tracking 40-49 rated players? I don't know about you, but I have a ton. Most of them can be picked up for less than $1 million and the younger players in this ratings range often have a nice upside. These are the players the AI should throwing money at late in free agency to fill out a roster, but they aren't.I don't have a problem with these guys sticking around and getting signed to one-year deals during training camp--which is what happens for the vast majority of them. I've only got 3 non-injured position players at or above 40 after training camp--two rated 40, and one rated 42. It appears that the signing issue has largely corrected itself. The totals for the past five seasons (2016-2020) are as follows:

>80: 0
70-79: 0
60-69: 3
50-59: 10

So we're talking a total of 13 quality players left in the pool over a five-year period. That's not bad. If the 5ish teams per year that have cap room and don't sign FA's would sign a couple, I'd imagine that we'd see these guys disappear from the pool almost completely.

Ben E Lou

02-24-2004, 03:11 PM

amdaily

02-24-2004, 03:46 PM

After 10 years with inflation set at 65 I'm getting the following:

5 - 50's
2 - 60's
2 - 70's
1 - 80's

Less than without inflation.

Buccaneer

02-24-2004, 03:49 PM

Ben E Lou

02-24-2004, 03:54 PM

Are there consequences for a team losing that much money?Part of me hopes that the answer is "no," for the sake of game difficulty. I'm fine with the human player having serious consequences (like a marked lowering of the ability to fork out bonus money), but I'd hate for the game to be easier because AI teams were having financial difficulties. Now, if the game could maintain a strong degree of difficultly and have AI teams have financialy consequences, then that would be a double-bonus. It would be fun to try to take over a team that had lost money the last five seasons and therefore be severely limited on spending for coaches, scouts, coordinators and bonuses.

Easy Mac

02-24-2004, 04:23 PM

Ben E Lou

02-24-2004, 04:26 PM

How old are the players in Free Agency that are left? Most of the players I'm seeing (this is only 1 season I've actually paid attention) are at least 7 years into their career. Is this/could this be a factor? Maybe a bastardization of the current v. future changes Jim has made?I'm not sure I've every seen a guy with 6 years or less who is rated above 50 still around (unless he's a kicker/punter/injured.) I'll check, but it is virtually always older players.

amdaily

02-24-2004, 04:35 PM

3 of my 10 have less than 7 years experience.

Unless of course that number number doesn't sound right to Easy Mac, then I'll adjust accordingly.

Ben E Lou

02-24-2004, 04:53 PM

Details on my latest end-of-8-step guys:

WR Eugene George, 65/65, 12-year man
C Walter McBeth, 61/61, 13-year man
MLB Edward Vajda, 57/57, 8th-year man
DE Kenny Ordonez, 53/55, 5th-year man
FL Everett Melton, 50/50, 10th-year man

Easy Mac

02-24-2004, 04:55 PM

amdaily

02-24-2004, 04:56 PM

My next run included only 1 out of 10 players that had less than 7 years experience (with a rating over 50).

Ben E Lou

02-24-2004, 04:58 PM

I haven't really paid attention to the guys rated in the 50's, maybe thats just me. 40-59 to me is average, so to see these guys left at the end of free agency isn't suprising, I've seen that since 5.0a.I basically agree. If I were to start over, I'd probably go with 55-59, rather than 50-59, as the bottom end of the study.

Buzzbee

02-24-2004, 05:04 PM

One other question. Scout abilities. Is it possible that your scout is "over rating" these leftovers and they aren't really as good as they seem? This might also explain the "certain positions seem overstocked" theory since a poor scout might error on those positions more often.

Just a thought.

Pyser

02-24-2004, 05:18 PM

i seem to remember a discussion on scouts showing that bad scouts will only undervalue players, never over-value players. i could be waaaaaay off though.

Dutch

02-24-2004, 05:18 PM

I haven't seen really dramatic changes between the scouts.

Here are some of the players ratings that other MP owners have given out as what they see vs. what my scout see's.

There OL scout rated Good says, "I've got a OL rated 25/40"
My OL scout rated Ave says, "He's 25/32 according to me"

There RB scout rated Very Good says, "I've got a RB rated 63/66"
My RB scout rated Ave says, "He's 62/66 according to me."

There RB scout rated Good says, "I've got a RB rated 29/35"
My RB scout rated Ave says, "He's 28/32 according to me."

Obviously that's only 3 of many, but we haven't had many to choose from yet. And yes, the worse scout undervalued in all 3 cases.

Ben E Lou

02-24-2004, 05:25 PM

Next set....

C Frankie Crawford 53/53, 7th-year man.
C Richie Kinney 51/51, 13th-year man.

That's all for this season.

Ben E Lou

02-24-2004, 05:26 PM

UPDATE

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 212pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=281 border=0 x:str><COLGROUP><COL style="WIDTH: 48pt" width=64><COL style="WIDTH: 27pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 1316" span=2 width=36><COL style="WIDTH: 24pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 1170" width=32><COL style="WIDTH: 29pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 1389" span=2 width=38><COL style="WIDTH: 28pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 1353" width=37><TBODY><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=64 height=17></TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 27pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=36>Min</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 27pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=36>Max</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 24pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=32>>80</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 29pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=38>70-79</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 29pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=38>60-69</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 28pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=37>50-59</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>2004</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>19</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>26</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>2005</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>18</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>28</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>2006</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>17</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>29</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>2007</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>17</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>31</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>2</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>2008</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>16</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>29</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>3</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>4</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>7</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>2009</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>15</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>27</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>3</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>2</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>4</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>2010</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>14</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>29</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>2</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>5</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>3</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>2011</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>15</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>29</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>3</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>2</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>6</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>2012</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>16</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>28</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>6</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>2013</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>14</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>26</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>3</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>3</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>7</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>2014</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>14</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>27</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>4</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>2015</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>12</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>27</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>2</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>5</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>2016</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>13</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>27</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>4</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>2017</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>14</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>25</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>2</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>2018</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>14</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>28</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>2019</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>16</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>25</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>2</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>3</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>2020</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17 x:num>2021</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>16</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>25</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>2</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; 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Karim

02-24-2004, 06:09 PM

Long-term it doesn't look that bad at all. Thanks for your work on this SkyDog.

Easy Mac

02-24-2004, 06:15 PM

Do you think that salaries and salary cap don't increase at quite the same rate, but eventually balance out?

amdaily

02-24-2004, 06:45 PM

Do you think that salaries and salary cap don't increase at quite the same rate, but eventually balance out?
A most interesting theory! I think this could play into part of it. Off to test, back soon...

Easy Mac

02-24-2004, 06:48 PM

cool cool... I'd test it, but I'm on "spring" break, so all my testing is officially done for the next 12 days.

amdaily

02-24-2004, 06:49 PM

In 2040 at a $159,500,000 cap I have 11 players making the equivelent of $10 million (still to high vs. NFL standards). But compare that to the 21-26 players making $10 million way back when the salary cap was $75 million.

Buccaneer

02-24-2004, 06:58 PM

Part of me hopes that the answer is "no," for the sake of game difficulty. I'm fine with the human player having serious consequences (like a marked lowering of the ability to fork out bonus money), but I'd hate for the game to be easier because AI teams were having financial difficulties. Now, if the game could maintain a strong degree of difficultly and have AI teams have financialy consequences, then that would be a double-bonus. It would be fun to try to take over a team that had lost money the last five seasons and therefore be severely limited on spending for coaches, scouts, coordinators and bonuses.
This is probably why financials translate better in baseball/OOTP because without a cap, you can easily restrict yourself to a certain team cap (like I do) while having some/most of the AI teams go wild. There is no way that financials should handicap the AI even more but somehow I would like to see in a football sim a way for more decision-making based on financials if, in the short-term, the AI can manage at that level without penalty in comparison to the human player. Add that to my list for the hypothetical NFL GM sim game.

amdaily

02-24-2004, 07:14 PM

QuikSand

02-24-2004, 07:18 PM

Do you think that salaries and salary cap don't increase at quite the same rate, but eventually balance out?

No.

BigPitt

02-24-2004, 07:18 PM

Pyser

02-24-2004, 07:35 PM

One thing i've never understood is that the computer-controlled teams constantly release players with less than 5 years experience. good players, at that. regardless of the amount of players they are releasing, they are releasing the wrong ones.

Ben E Lou

02-24-2004, 08:15 PM

There are not enough players staying with the same team from year to year.

The idea that 15-25 players play 2 or more years in a row with the same team is way out of line.Not according to Jim.

Teams in the NFL seem to have a core of 20-30 players that they keep for more than a year. Some go as small as 16 in retention, others as high as 32. Obviously, FOF 2004 is retaining fewer players. If that's what it takes to maintain a competitive AI, that's okay with me. I'll have to see how this issue plays out over the next week or so before I make any decisions on how to proceed.

BigPitt

02-24-2004, 09:19 PM

In this case I am afraid is WAY wrong.Check it out yourself.

Ben E Lou

02-24-2004, 09:39 PM

In this case I am afraid is WAY wrong.Check it out yourself.Your syntax is unclear here. Elucidate, please.

Dutch

02-24-2004, 09:45 PM

Elucidate

You can't fool me, Skydog. That is NOT a word.

Dutch

02-24-2004, 09:46 PM

Okay, maybe it is...fucking FOFC, making me break out the dictionary(.com) way too much.

Ben E Lou

02-24-2004, 09:47 PM

You can't fool me, Skydog. That is NOT a word.e·lu·ci·date http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/JPG/pron.jpg (https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fsearch%3Fr%3D10%26q%3Delucidate) ( P ) Pronunciation Key (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html) (http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ibreve.gif-lhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/oomacr.gifhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gifshttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ibreve.gif-dhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/amacr.gifthttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/lprime.gif)
v. e·lu·ci·dat·ed, e·lu·ci·dat·ing, e·lu·ci·dates
v. tr.
<DL><DD>To make clear or plain, especially by explanation; clarify.</DD></DL>
v. intr.
<DL><DD>To give an explanation that serves to clarify. See Synonyms at explain (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=explain).</DD></DL>

Ben E Lou

02-24-2004, 09:48 PM

Okay, maybe it is...fucking FOFC, making me break out the dictionary(.com) way too much....and to think, this isn't even my people's language. {ducking}

:D

Dutch

02-24-2004, 10:05 PM

Apparently it's not mine either. :)

Solecismic

02-24-2004, 10:10 PM

Alright, maybe not. What I did was generate a league with HR utility and set the cap at $150 million (without inflation). 5 years in I have 80 players rated higher than 50 sitting on the FA market going into training camp. Needless to say, that is a significantly worse problem than starting with a $75 million cap without inflation.

These studies are great to read, but if you're going to use a third-party utility to generate a new player file, needless to say, it completely invalidates the data.

Someone was making all sorts of noise rejecting 5.0c/d and scaring the townsfolk because the stats were off - but they were using a third-party utility as well.

Also, if you eliminate inflation, it makes cap management tougher on the AI because contracts have a certain level of inflation built in. The inflation controls are meant either for leagues or for people who really hate inflation, and don't mind that the NFL salary structure would probably collapse without it.

As SkyDog noted, there's no question less players are retained by the AI than a typical NFL team retains. And while there are quality free agents going unsigned, it's not a huge number. More than I'd like, but not a huge number. Preliminarily, the evidence suggests that 5.0d is not perfect by any means, but likely an improvement over 5.0b.

SegRat

02-24-2004, 10:21 PM

Preliminarily, the evidence suggests that 5.0d is not perfect by any means, but likely an improvement over 5.0b.

I definitely agree with this. Thanks again Jim for your dedication to keep this game the best there is out there.

MizzouRah

02-25-2004, 12:20 AM

Allright, this game is becoming unplayable for me. :(

Season 2008, Patch D:
This is after the 8 week FA period right befor training camp, ratings of players unsigned.

90-100: 1
80-89: 4
70-79: 4
60-69: 6
50-59: 17
40-49: 100

Cap Room:
Indy: $25.5 mil
Oak: $13.7
Mia: $11.4
NJ: $10.5
Ten: $10.3
Sea: $10
Ari: $9.9
NO: $9.3

You get the picture. AI teams are just not aggressive in signing FA.

Oakland needs an ILB, there is one in FA who is rated 68:68 and is asking for $3.8 mil. You mean Oakland can't offord it?

Crazy...

Todd

MizzouRah

02-25-2004, 12:40 AM

dola,

After training camp, via 1 year deals:

90-100: 0
80-89: 1
70-79: 0
60-69: 2
50-59: 3
40-49: 27

Indy: $11.4 mil
Oak: $7
Mia: $6.3
NJ: $4.2
Ten: $1.1
Sea: $4.4
Ari: $2.2
NO: $3

Todd

Vinatieri for Prez

02-25-2004, 01:14 AM

There are not enough players staying with the same team from year to year.

The idea that 15-25 players play 2 or more years in a row with the same team is way out of line.

The number;in the NFL;is about 15 more than that.To me this is just not the
way football is.Without some cohesion to the teams they quickly lose their identy.By the way - I checked the "loyalty" rating and it seems to make no difference.It should.Teams should by singing their own free agents more.

There has to be a better way for the game to make the AI competitive than this FA thing.Really,it might just as well have a built-in cheat.

Have you really looked at this in depth for all the teams. Because I THINK you may be wrong here (but not sure). While I think the NFL number is higher, I don't think it is that out of whack. I highly doubt a single team has 40 (of 53) players from 2 years ago. Normally, the top 10-15 guys stay around, but there is very high turnover for non-starters/special teams players. Even the Pats only had about 30 (if that) players from winning the Superbowl.

Check this link: hxxp://seattlepi.nwsource.com/football/81664_thie07.shtml

By the date of the article, Mack Strong (FB) is the only player remaining on the team from 5 years (prior 1997 season - prior 2002 season) and is only ONE of NINE players (one a punter) on the team from only 3 years prior (1999). So, unless you can show me otherwise, I have to disagree.

Ben E Lou

02-25-2004, 04:07 AM

By the date of the article, Mack Strong (FB) is the only player remaining on the team from 5 years (prior 1997 season - prior 2002 season) and is only ONE of NINE players (one a punter) on the team from only 3 years prior (1999). So, unless you can show me otherwise, I have to disagree.Mack has always been unusually dedicated and loyal. :D

Buccaneer

02-25-2004, 10:14 AM

These studies are great to read, but if you're going to use a third-party utility to generate a new player file, needless to say, it completely invalidates the data.
Completely? What about the touted feature of being able to create and use custom player files (fictional, historical and present-day real)? Are you saying those can only be created by modifying existing game-created player files?

ZXTT

02-25-2004, 12:30 PM

Completely? What about the touted feature of being able to create and use custom player files (fictional, historical and present-day real)? Are you saying those can only be created by modifying existing game-created player files?

I assume he means that statistically, the salary data needs to match. What would happen if players start the game with contracts that have more money in later years than the original/real salaries?

ZXTT

02-25-2004, 12:42 PM

And, as long as I'm posting, I'd like to show support for an idea I've seen suggested previously: GM personalities. They don't even have to be visible to the player (human player).

I could imagine maybe five personalities, essentially different AI. Each AI would take a slightly different approach to keeping players, signing free agents, etc. Teams could change GMs occasionally, especially after a run of poor years. If one AI is more successful, more teams will end up using it, but that will presumably make that AI less effective and the others more effective.

I don't know how the economy is programmed, but if it doesn't do this already, perhaps this would help things getting out of balance: the economy should be goal-based. That is, the game would have goals for, say, free agent quality available after free agent period (top 50 FAs average ability or more complicated, but you get the idea).

If there is no quality left, players will ask for more next year. If there is too much quality, players will ask for less and the change should be aggressive enough to ensure that within a few years there is a no quality year again.

Think of this a global reality check, where assumptions about salaries are adjusted across the board.

MizzouRah

02-25-2004, 05:48 PM

ZXTT,

That would be a great addition.

We need to start a fof2k5 wish list. ;)

I'll add another: Attendance - could the attendance change each game based on performance/coaching/personal changes? Although I would expect it would go down the following year after releasing a popular player.

It would be nice to see some fluxuation, maybe more fans for a rival or playoff game?

Edit: When I played with the Rams, it was the same each game, with the Chargers, it does fluxuate. Some teams do and some don't. Hmmm....

Todd

BigPitt

02-25-2004, 06:32 PM

Skydog - seems clear to me ; and anyone I asked.

Vinatieri -I was just calling on my memory but after your post I went back and checked a few years of my Steelers.I might add that I said nothing about holders from 2 years hence.I was speaking only from year to year.

I think these last 3 years are enough to prove a point.

From 2000 to 2001 Steelers had 36 players play both years.
From 2001 to 2002 Steelers had 35 players play both years.
From 2002 to 2003 Steelers had 42 players play both years.

I would say that the Steelers have a more stable enviroment than many other teams but I'll bet 35-36 is league average.Probably not much use debating this point because I'll guess the game is not going to change.

Ben E Lou

02-25-2004, 06:46 PM

Skydog - seems clear to me ; and anyone I asked.Well, it wasn't to me. In this case I am afraid is WAY wrong.Check it out yourself.I wasn't sure if you left out the word "Jim", added an extra word, or what.

From 2000 to 2001 Steelers had 36 players play both years.
From 2001 to 2002 Steelers had 35 players play both years.
From 2002 to 2003 Steelers had 42 players play both years.Where did you find this information. It is a bear to find this sort of stuff.

BigPitt

02-25-2004, 08:18 PM

"Your syntax is unclear here. Elucidate, please"

Skydog you are right - I left out the word "Jim". I thought you were refering to the use of "WAY.

I guess I felt your remark was a little condesending so I answered rather quickly.

As to your other question - I've got more football stuff around here than the Hall of Fame library.Sports Encyclopedia - Pro Football for one; but I have a great deal of info on the computer too.

PSUColonel1

02-25-2004, 09:07 PM

Allright, this game is becoming unplayable for me.

Season 2008, Patch D:
This is after the 8 week FA period right befor training camp, ratings of players unsigned.

90-100: 1
80-89: 4
70-79: 4
60-69: 6
50-59: 17
40-49: 100

Cap Room:
Indy: $25.5 mil
Oak: $13.7
Mia: $11.4
NJ: $10.5
Ten: $10.3
Sea: $10
Ari: $9.9
NO: $9.3

You get the picture. AI teams are just not aggressive in signing FA.

Oakland needs an ILB, there is one in FA who is rated 68:68 and is asking for $3.8 mil. You mean Oakland can't offord it?

Crazy...

If this is the case, I am definately disappointed. I don't recall this happening in version B. What has changed and why? I thought the Ai was doing a much better job than it had in any other version of FOF.

Easy Mac

02-25-2004, 09:36 PM

Did you check to see if Oakland picked him up after training camp was over.

PSUColonel1

02-25-2004, 09:48 PM

so what if they did. They got the player for a one year cheap as balls deal.

Easy Mac

02-25-2004, 09:50 PM

so what if they did. They got the player for a one year cheap as balls deal.
exactly, why would they break the bank If they could get the same thing cheaper.

For all I know, there could be an algorithm in the game that makes the AI realize that it can't afford to give out large contracts each year, so its better to just rent players.

MizzouRah

02-25-2004, 10:16 PM

Did you check to see if Oakland picked him up after training camp was over.

No, they signed an OLB for $300,000 and then changed his position to ILB. His ratings are: 25:42 and he's inactive. I'm not sure who picked up the other player.

This is what happened after training camp:

After training camp, via 1 year deals:

90-100: 0
80-89: 1
70-79: 0
60-69: 2
50-59: 3
40-49: 27

Indy: $11.4 mil
Oak: $7
Mia: $6.3
NJ: $4.2
Ten: $1.1
Sea: $4.4
Ari: $2.2
NO: $3

Sure, teams signed players to fill up roster slots, but wouldn't you want a team that needs a good starting ILB and lots of money signing a player to at least a 2-yr deal so another team doesn't snatch him up for peanuts and a 1-yr deal? Oakland lost out. I just think the cpu ai could use more work in the area of aggressiveness. Some teams might want to save $, but it's less common in the NFL. If they have a RB rated at 25:28 (and one year left on his contract) and there is RB in free agency with 51:55 ratings, the cpu team should cut the less rated guy and sign the bkup FA. Maybe not to a tee, but top notch players should never go beyond phase 2 of FA.

The game is challenging, but I find myself scratching my head looking at computer team moves. Ya I know, join a league :).

Solecismic

02-26-2004, 12:03 AM

Vegas Vic

02-26-2004, 02:15 AM

The problem is that you just can't teach a computer common sense. Everything has to be explicit. Now I know programmers have had some success giving computers the illusion of learning, but that takes enormous processing time, and I doubt I could get away with 10-minute free agency stages while the AI goes through a chess-like approach rather than a formula approach.

Given that, I've found that I need computer teams to keep a few million away from the cap as a cushion. I'm happy that the game is challenging, because that's quite an accomplishment under the circumstances. And there's always room for improvement.

Excellent point. I've been following these posts, and some of these guys are looking for instant gratification. They don't realize it would probably take tens of thousands of lines of code to replicate all of the intricacies of salary cap management in an open free agent market with 32 teams.

In the Computer vs. Chess Grandmaster matches (i.e. Kasparov vs. Deep Fritz), sometimes the computer takes 20 to 30 minutes to make one move, and that's while it's calculating at the rate of several million moves per second.

yabanci

02-26-2004, 02:20 AM

thus the beauty of multiplayer.

Ben E Lou

02-26-2004, 03:10 AM

Todd:

Keep in mind that so far it has been pretty much universally reported that 2008 is one of the worst years.

chinaski

02-26-2004, 04:22 AM

I started a new dynasty with the default rosters just too see how things went.. I didnt keep track of FA numbers, but in 2031 I noticed something that was stinky.

http://bmnetwerks.net/~disola/images/fof/endofstg82031.gif

Sheppard, Flannery and Hill all went through both FA periods without a single bid. All teams have cap space.. and the 2 teams with the most cap space both have QB and RB as their number #1 roster need. These guys are superstars, both QB's have recent and multiple 4000 yard seasons, the RB was over 1500 the past couple. No missed playing time.

http://bmnetwerks.net/~disola/images/fof/capneed2031.gif

Finally, to top it off, Cincy (10-6 in 2030) signed both of those QB's (Sheppard and Hill) too league minimums. Tennesse (5-11 in 2030) signed two horrible undrafted RB's and the Jets (4-12 in 2030) didnt sign a QB. Shouldnt they have atleast tried to sign these guys? Based on their records, they had first dibs on these players.

I see this kind of stuff often. Ive been managing the Seahawks this whole time (28 seasons), skipping both FA periods, not resigning anyone (basically, justa couple here and there to keep it interesting) and then letting the AI pickup replacement players after camp. We all too frequently get great players, for the league min.

MizzouRah

02-26-2004, 07:23 AM

Todd:

Keep in mind that so far it has been pretty much universally reported that 2008 is one of the worst years.

That's good to hear. :)

I understand what Jim is saying, I don't want instant gratification, just some thoughts for 2k5.

Todd

Shepp

02-26-2004, 11:12 AM

I have been holding off on buying FOF2k4 until it looks like most of the kinks have been worked out. I was hoping 5.0d would be it, but I'm just not sure. The thing that concerns me the most isn't the amount of turnover on teams but the lack of teams singning any players during the free agent period. I have read some of Skydog's posts and it looks like there are teams that are skipping free agency alltogether. Is this some sort of bug or are the teams just loading up on the leftovers after free agnecy?

Ben E Lou

02-26-2004, 11:16 AM

Is this some sort of bug or are the teams just loading up on the leftovers after free agnecy?I don't know if it is their strategy to wait and load up, but nearly all (if not all) of the players rated 45 or so and higher (non-injured, of course), get snatched up during the Training Camp portion of the game (after the final 8-step free agency, but before the preseason starts). They are signed to one-year deals.

amdaily

02-26-2004, 11:55 AM

I don't know if it is their strategy to wait and load up, but nearly all (if not all) of the players rated 45 or so and higher (non-injured, of course), get snatched up during the Training Camp portion of the game (after the final 8-step free agency, but before the preseason starts). They are signed to one-year deals.One year deals they are :(. Poor guy kept getting overlooked in FA and rented out for a couple games the following season. 9 teams in as many years.

http://s92878788.onlinehome.us/problem11.gif

<EDIT>edit - Is that a record :). Feel free to try and match it!

Easy Mac

02-26-2004, 11:58 AM

So do these guys have injury problems then, and the computer can see it but we can't? Obviously these players have talents and should start for whoever signs them. Perhaps the computer can see their injury proneness?

yabanci

02-26-2004, 12:07 PM

One year deals they are :(. Poor guy kept getting overlooked in FA and rented out for a couple games the following season. 9 teams in as many years.

http://s92878788.onlinehome.us/problem11.gif

<EDIT>edit - Is that a record :). Feel free to try and match it!

The career progression is interesting and pretty realistic. He had only one really great year (6th) after a couple pretty good ones, then it appears he had a major injury and became a journeyman quarterback. You would think that some of those teams in the later years would have kept him around longer as a backup though.

hukarez

02-26-2004, 12:09 PM

Wow...what a storied career! Don't think I've ever had a QB in my universe go for as long as that chap did. Bravo, I say! Bravo!

amdaily

02-26-2004, 12:24 PM

I don't know if he was injuried orwhat (now in the mid 2040's), but those 8 teams should have been no more than 3. He should have been signed to a couple of 2-3 years deals in the actual FA process after he left Minnesota.

And about the injury proness, the best thing about patch D is that long-term injuries don't necessarily mean the guy is crippled for life. My leagues greatest QB went two consecutive years where he played 6 and than 8 games (8th and 9th year in his career). He then missed 1 game over the next 3 years, before missing nearly an entire season after that. But he recovered yet again and was relatively injury free for the next 5 years before retiring after his 18th.

Never would have had such a story like that with 5.0b. The change really makes the game a much more accurate simulation of real life.

Shepp

02-26-2004, 12:31 PM

I was just thinking about one of Jim's last posts talking about the free agent AI and cap space and it got me thinking about what might be happening.

If the computer teams are within a certain amount of their total cap space they are not participating in the free agency to conserve money. Then these teams will sign whatever they can get after free agency, to fill their roster, for the least amount of money and still have cap room left over. That may be the AI's way of being able to pick up new players during the season due to injury and that sort of thing.

I know from playing FOF4 there were many times that my roster was depleted due to injury and I had no cap room left to sign even a scrub. Sometimes it would take me hours to renegotiate contracts and cut players in order not to screw myself for years to come.

If the computer controlled teams got stuck in a situation like that they could very easily cut a player who's contract stucture would stick the whole club in salary cap hell and possibly ruin that teams competitiveness for years to come. If that happened to more than one team, the integrity of the entire league could fail.

I'm curious to see what the rest of you think of this hypothesis.

T-Storm

02-26-2004, 01:34 PM

Another quick little things not related to the free agency problem, but now that injuries have been brought up I feel the need to take it a bit further.
Player coming of a long time injury (like ACL Knee Surgery) are playing too soon.
The AI almost always seems to chose to play them when they are propable and healing is away no more than 2-3 weeks. That actually wouldn't be a problem, but it seems that a good amount of players immediately get reinjured after playing just a few snaps and then they are either done for good oder out with the same injury for another 30+ weeks.
I guess this would be a quite obious thing that cripples cpu teams to field competitive teams. And the solution seems rather simple: either reduce re-injury-proneness if playing when probable or have cpu teams not play players (coming of major injury) before fully healed.
This also applies if you let your scouts set depth charts and tends to drive me insane.

If you let your scouts also make minor roster decisions which you most probably will have to, if you also let them set up the depth charts, you might notice, just after training camp the cpu signs as manay player as the salary room allows. that wouldn't be a problem... but if there are for example 2 WR, one rated 30, the other 35. The One rated 30 has a cheap (minimum salery) contract for 3 years and the 35 rated was just signed after trainingcamp for one year. if (and there most probably will be) there are too many WR on the roster for the AI likeness it will release some. Now the obvious choice would be to release the one it just signes after traiing camp even if he is rated slightly higher. but that doesn't happen. the long term signed player is released.
The same problem exists at the beginning of free-agency. The AI releases solid back-ups that don't earn much more than minimum salary for no appearent reason. Even if they got ennough cap room they will release solid cheap players only to sign other solid players during free agency and then repeating the same the year after.

Edit:

While this was somewhere between 2005 and 2013, it probably represents another serious flaw in the logic:
Second FreeAgency period, there is a 65+ (current) rated QB only asking for a 2 year deal with about 2.500.000 signing bonus and yearly salaries of about 1.500.000. he is not injured but yet not offered a contract.
While I didn't check salary situations of the teams I'm fairly sure there must have been a team with the cap room and the need to sign him.
He should be signed. he is cheap, he is solid, he is available.

MizzouRah

02-26-2004, 07:03 PM

Shepp

02-26-2004, 09:22 PM

Its not a matter if if I buy the game but when. I don't have lots of free time and have been playing Knights of the Old Republic with the free time I have had.

Ultimately I would just like to see the game be the best it can be. I played the crap out of FOF4 but there are several features in FOF2k4 that I definately like. I've also done some thinking about my post above and have a suggestion that may make the player turnover and free agancy look a little more realistic, although at the expense of letting the computer controlled teams cheat a little. Of course this is assuming that the computer AI doesn't participate in free agency for the reasons I outlined above.

The solution I have in mind would have the computer controlled teams go through free agency, the draft, and training camp signing players under the restirctions of the salary cap. Then once the season starts the computer can sign as many filler players to one year deals as needed for injuries, disregarding the salary cap.

I know this is cheating and without knowing exactly how the computer signs and drafts players there might be some pretty big holes in my logic. But I just wanted to throw out the suggestion.

MizzouRah

02-26-2004, 11:02 PM

FOF4 is but a memory as FOF2k4 is much better. It's a worthwhile upgrade.

Todd

Peregrine

02-26-2004, 11:30 PM

I was just thinking about one of Jim's last posts talking about the free agent AI and cap space and it got me thinking about what might be happening.

If the computer teams are within a certain amount of their total cap space they are not participating in the free agency to conserve money. Then these teams will sign whatever they can get after free agency, to fill their roster, for the least amount of money and still have cap room left over. That may be the AI's way of being able to pick up new players during the season due to injury and that sort of thing.

Teams may need to save a few million just to make sure they don't run over, as Jim pointed out. But why are they holding onto tens of millions of dollars when they could be signing talented, available free agents in spots of need? Chinaski's latest screenshots are very worrying to me on that score. I realize this is nothing essentially new, but it does seem worse than ever with the game in its current state.

Shepp

02-26-2004, 11:59 PM

Shepp

02-27-2004, 12:32 AM

Teams may need to save a few million just to make sure they don't run over, as Jim pointed out. But why are they holding onto tens of millions of dollars when they could be signing talented, available free agents in spots of need?

If you're in the free agent stage of the game you still have to have enough money to sign not only your free agents but also your draft picks as well. If a team has 20 players under contract before free agency and doesn't sign anyone else, it would pick up at least seven in the draft. That means that the team would have to sign at least another 20 players. Just for argument's sake, lets say the league minimum was $300,000 dollars. If you signed that many players to a 1 year salary it would cost you $6,000,000 dollars. That's not even counting the money that you spent in the draft!

My idea is that the computer is saving tens of millions because it has to have enough money to sign all of its draftees, fill the roster, and have enough money left over to fill roster holes due to injury. That can chew up quite a bit of cap space.

If the computer is able to field a competitive team with the system in place, then I am satisfied. However, there has been more than one post on this board complaining that the free agent numbers don't reflect the real NFL. I am just putting in my two cents to see what everyone else thinks.

Rolando Jimenez

02-27-2004, 07:19 AM

Perhaps making sure the cap increases by 6 to 8 Million per year is a way to help teams coping better with some of their expensive tastes for stars signed to longterm deals eating up to 40% of their cap. Having an extra couple of Millions every year may help them retain 2-3 additional players or may give them extra freedom in signing FA's during the corresponding 2 periods.

Having 13 million available with 26 players on roster after all 28 rounds of FA will mean they need 20 more players, 7 of them via draft. The 7 guys drafted could eat some 5 to 8 Million, at times more, leaving them with 5 to 7 million to sign 13 players...grossly minimum contract level guys.

This is just a thought...it may not solve our FA problem at all.

amdaily

02-27-2004, 07:37 AM

Both of you are wrong :). The changes in FA have nothing to do with signing replacement players the following season or not having the cap increase enough. How do I know this? Because it wasn't a problem in 5.0b. Fixing it is just a matter of balancing the changes that were made earlier in the roster AI. Allowing the computer to cheat or raise the cap unrealistically each season is not a solution.

OldGiants

02-27-2004, 08:21 AM

Shepp makes an interesting point about injury replacements. I remember back when FOF2 (2nd version, that is) came out, I was one of several who pointed out that the AI teams would enter the playoffs with injury-depleted squads that often numbered less than 40 active players. I faced a team in the SB that had no safeties or guards more healthy than Doubtful.

I had a blowout win, which wasn't any fun, given the circumstances. Jim fixed the code to allow room to acquire players (and toned down injuries, for better or worse).

This is a fine balance between meeting current roster maximization and keeping the AI teams competiitive in the playoffs if they have a run of injuries.

Also, do we need a few lines of code so Terrell Owens 'forgets' to file for FA status?

MizzouRah

03-03-2004, 10:16 PM

Season 2009 and I'm still seeing this after the 2nd FA period, just before training camp.

Too many top notch players just sitting there, waiting a one year deal.

Todd

mtolson

03-05-2004, 09:12 PM

Season 2009 and I'm still seeing this after the 2nd FA period, just before training camp.

Too many top notch players just sitting there, waiting a one year deal.

Todd

Waiting for a one year deal at league min values at that. I have noticed that the players get picked up for the one year min. right after training camp.

JonInMiddleGA

03-05-2004, 09:56 PM

9 teams in as many years.
<edit>Is that a record :). Feel free to try and match it! I don't know if it's even close to a record.
Here's 11 FA years in a row (9 teams, as two of them signed him twice)
And he's currently an FA again.

Here's the possible wrinkle though ... this is from v5.0b

It didn't really take any real looking at all to find this guy. I've seen this sort of thing so many times that I pretty much take it for granted at this point. This guy (currently rated 44/44 IIRC) was just the first one I found.
Again, IIRC, I believe I've seen at least one QB go through 16 teams in 16 years, I just didn't have the willpower to search through nearly 40 seasons to find him.
</edit>

http://mimisbestfriends.home.mindspring.com/fofss1.jpg

MizzouRah

03-05-2004, 10:38 PM

Waiting for a one year deal at league min values at that. I have noticed that the players get picked up for the one year min. right after training camp.
Yes indeed. Strange to say the least.

Todd

MizzouRah

03-05-2004, 11:16 PM

Things like this kill me! :mad:

http://tvfl.cobaltice.net/thstat.bmp

http://tvfl.cobaltice.net/thcontract.bmp

MizzouRah

03-05-2004, 11:18 PM

This guys a premiere reciever, I should know. :)

Playing for $1,080,000! What a bargain San Francisco! :)

Todd

Dutch

03-06-2004, 12:19 PM

I see a Kicker rated 80/88 in the the free agency pool. I sign him. In the execute trade screen, I do a shop player on the kicker and every team in the league is interested in trading for him and many teams show a "100" interest level.

What were they waiting for? It's week 3 of the season, go get him!

(of course, I couldn't trade him since I just picked him up and traded my 78/80 kicker for a 3rd rounder instead).

MizzouRah

03-06-2004, 03:59 PM

I would love to see some AI enhancements for v5. In fact, if that's all he worked on, it would be fine with me. :)

The game plays a great game of football, imo. I just want better ran AI teams.

Todd

Karim

03-06-2004, 05:09 PM

Agreed. The game is really solid, fun and challenging. People would probably complain about the lack of new features in a v.5 but if the AI would just tighten up around some of these "loop holes", it would be great.

On the other hand, how many would people would object to slower processing during Free Agency and a chess-like AI routine instead of a formulaic approach?

yabanci

03-06-2004, 06:03 PM

I agree that a more sophisticated AI roster management, with improved logic for doing everything from releasing, renegotiating, selecting franchise players, free agent signing, trading, drafting, and cap managment to setting up depth charts, would be more important than a lot of new features or flash.

SunDancer

03-06-2004, 06:31 PM

MizzouRah

03-06-2004, 06:55 PM

I agree. I think that an "profile" of team' AL GM's would make this game alot better, along with improving player demands.

Definitely! Also, coaches who prefer offense to defense (ie the draft). Just more player/GM/coaches involvement in general.

How many real NFL teams hold much cap room back?

I would also like to see a practice squad, but that's just a feature suggestion.

Todd

SunDancer

03-06-2004, 08:54 PM

Definitely! Also, coaches who prefer offense to defense (ie the draft). Just more player/GM/coaches involvement in general.

How many real NFL teams hold much cap room back?

I would also like to see a practice squad, but that's just a feature suggestion.

Todd
I believe that "team philosophies" would really help solve the AI problems. Take the Eagles style, the Patroits, and the Redskins. Have a "rebuilding" philosophy, a "to-stay-on-top' philosophy that brings cap management, draft style, and free agent shopping together. But in order to do this, you need to instill GM's, and have scouts of teams be allowed to become "GM's" with the philosophy.

amdaily

03-06-2004, 09:00 PM

While were on the topic, I'd like to see coaching styles on the coaching card (think QB's and their formations). This way if you have a stud RB and a mediorce QB, you could search for a coach whose style is "pound the ball." Or in another situation you might need a coach who will call plays to conform to a west coast offense personal set, and so on.

Dutch

03-06-2004, 10:53 PM

Just thinking about how to refine the AI in order to help collect idea's makes the process appear mind boggling.

Suppose the AI's team philosophy is a Run and Shoot pass happy team. The code dictates that big dollars will go to QB, OL, and WR's. But what if there aren't any good QB's? Or what if they are already signed by other teams? You still have a ton of money you haven't allocated. But you still need to spend it. Should the AI then try and just sign a high caliber player? Sounds good, but what if the only talent left is a high-priced DT? And the AI already had 2 decent DT? Should the AI try and sign the free agent and trade or drop one of the other guys? Keep the depth? Should team cohesion be a factor?

Frankly, I have no idea how Jim can get the AI to work at all, much less perfectly.

MizzouRah

03-06-2004, 11:08 PM

Frankly, I have no idea how Jim can get the AI to work at all, much less perfectly.
Quite true, but there's always room for improvement. There is no doubt programming AI is the hardest part of any sports sim. ( I really wish CM was my cup of tea )

EHM:FE should be one heck of a game if CM is really that deep.

Todd

MizzouRah

03-15-2004, 09:42 PM

More AI madness. :)

I'm playing Denver and their starting C is out for 31 weeks. They have 2 backups rated 11 and 9 respectively. Should be an easy day for sacks.

Anyhow, they have $160,000 in cap room and $480,000 in cash. There are 29 centers in FA that are rated higher than 11. Denver also has 4 inactive players who have 1 year contracts. Doing the math, they could sign any C they wanted to a 1 year deal. In fact, they could sign the top rated C - Kevin Mawae (rating of 69).

Things like this make me feel like I have an advantage over the computer.

Todd

Carligula

03-15-2004, 11:50 PM

MizzouRah

03-16-2004, 07:34 AM

Maybe. But I'd never consider doing what you propose (although I'd have better backup centers, to be sure). If you cut all your inactive players and use up all your cap room, just to upgrade at one position, what do you do if someone else gets hurt? Or another three someones? Pretty soon you're cutting starters and replacing them with URFA just to afford to fill out a legal roster. I can't feel too badly about the AI if it's passing up things like that - although it does seem to have a problem keeping depth.

That's the thing, these backups are not starters... and I don't care what I had to do, I wouldn't have an 11 rated C starting for me. :) The best C in FA was just an example of what could be done, there are much better, less money players available. My point, there shouldn't be 69 rated players in FA.

Todd