Site Redesign At Solecismic

[Ben E Lou]

www.solecismic.com

[Maple Leafs]

Not bad. It's not there yet, but it's getting there.

[Senator]

Is it really?

[vex]

What's new other than the top?

[GoSeahawks]

It looks pretty much identical to the old one.

[Raiders Army]

#1: Jim updated his Company Information

Hey, he didn't link FOFC to the FOF2004 Community!

[Raiders Army]

Dola,

I was hoping for a little more than adding FOF 2004, and saying that "new challenges beckon".

I was happy to hear that he would maintain the football games.

Also, it was nice to put his son on there.

[hukarez]

Are there any leagues going on? I was kind of surprised to see no links in the 'Community' portion of the website.

[jeff061]

Hehe, wierd man. I went to the high school his wife is standing in front of in one of the company info pics. At least i believe thats Souhegan.

Liberal(not talking politics) and overrated. Hated that school ;).

[Dutch]

I suspected I wouldn't see some ubergraphical bonaza festival of color and lights when I clicked on the link.

What can you say? It's classic Jim. However, the mauve highlight on the alternate banner logo is a nice touch. Sort of. :)

[Maple Leafs]

I have to say it... given Jim's stated preference for avoiding the fancy and keeping it simple, is anyone surprised that he's still using the yellow background, along with the "light blue on black" side nav with the annoying red javascript highlights?

[VPI97]

Are there any leagues going on? I was kind of surprised to see no links in the 'Community' portion of the website.Well, I think Jim knows of at least one :)

[druez]

I saw this post from skydog and thought maybe Jim was finally getting it. I still see he isn't getting it. Until he does Front Office Football will never be the Championship Manager of American Football. No matter how good his stat engine is, no matter how much he loves spreadsheets this game will never be mass market.

Jim needs to go take a marketing 101 class and get with the times. If he doesn't change the way he does his marketing, website or overall "flash" of his game he will be stuck catering to the same 5k of people at this website.

This isn't a flame, but he needs to realize that there are a large group of people out here that would love this style of game, "jim's game" if he just took a step into the 2000's.....

[tucker342]

Classic Jim:)

[sabotai]

I saw this post from skydog and thought maybe Jim was finally getting it. I still see he isn't getting it. Until he does Front Office Football will never be the Championship Manager of American Football. No matter how good his stat engine is, no matter how much he loves spreadsheets this game will never be mass market.

Jim needs to go take a marketing 101 class and get with the times. If he doesn't change the way he does his marketing, website or overall "flash" of his game he will be stuck catering to the same 5k of people at this website.

This isn't a flame, but he needs to realize that there are a large group of people out here that would love this style of game, "jim's game" if he just took a step into the 2000's.....

And what makes you think Jim wants to deal with a huge customer base and have to deal with 100,000 variations of you?

[Dutch]

BURN!!!

[RedKingGold]

Druez,

Why don't you make the "Championship Manager" of Football, and then we lovely members of the FOFC will critque it for you?

Let's see what great football sim you can create! (Insert sarcasm here) :rolleyes:

[RedKingGold]

Dola,

In my Marketing 101 class,...I don't remember receiving any lecture on "how to design a website"

Damn, I bet Coca-Cola better re-design their "classic" idea. After all, it is only the largest selling soft drink in America.

While we're at it,....why don't we change the color of those stupid yellow post-it notes from 3M. They are so not with the 2000's.

And lastly, I happen to be one of those "5k" people who are still stuck with dial-up modems and regular cable TV.

I hope I'm not obsolete

[Schmidty]

Liberal(not talking politics) and overrated.

Jim (but talking politics)?

[McSweeny]

I saw this post from skydog and thought maybe Jim was finally getting it. I still see he isn't getting it. Until he does Front Office Football will never be the Championship Manager of American Football. No matter how good his stat engine is, no matter how much he loves spreadsheets this game will never be mass market.

Jim needs to go take a marketing 101 class and get with the times. If he doesn't change the way he does his marketing, website or overall "flash" of his game he will be stuck catering to the same 5k of people at this website.

This isn't a flame, but he needs to realize that there are a large group of people out here that would love this style of game, "jim's game" if he just took a step into the 2000's.....

we all don't want to conquer the world. Many of us are happy with they way that Jim and Solecismic do things. Most importantly Jim is very happy with the way things are and that's all that's important. You can go conquer the world, we'll be happy enjoying things here. Be sure to let us know how it goes

[Solecismic]

Druez, this isn't a flame, but you don't have a clue what you're talking about. I've taken graduate level courses in media, and I'm doing what I need to do. If I had an infinite amount of money and time, I'd do a lot more with the site. If I wanted to risk the future of the company by hiring employees, I'd do a lot more with both the game and the site.

All flash is going to do is fool some people into thinking they're getting a different product. Integrity is very important to me. I wish you had told me about your relationship with the competition before you reviewed my product - your post as well as the behavior that got you banned from this site make me believe you still have an agenda here.

Maple Leafs, that isn't Javascript, that's a style sheet.

Jeff, yes, that's Souhegan. We no longer vote at the Wilkins school, which is a shame because it's much closer to home.

There aren't any links on the community page yet because no one's asked (at least as of the last mail forwarding this afternoon). Tell me about your leagues. VPI, if you want that one listed, let me know. I'll even list FOFC if SkyDog stops unbanning those who so richly deserved it in the first place.

[corbes]

If you consider the game as art, instead of as a flashy consumer product designed to sell as many copies as possible, suddenly, it all makes sense.

I, for one, am incredibly pleased to have found such a game/atmosphere.

I appreciate how quickly the website loads on my browser, and gets me to the right information. That's just as aesthetic as can be.

[Hurst2112]

Funny things about websites....

Until very recently, I worked for a music studio. All of the studios around seem to have the same style of website: Flash....(wait for page to load) bullshit. At first, I thought our site, which was built with front page, looked liked crap and we were, in turn, losing business. With the help of other engineers around the country, i realized that our website was actually the norm for most studios. As a company, you don't want to have to invest in a site that isn't going to bring a return. It didn't matter for our business that we didn't have the botique site, we still got hits galore...and everybody could open our site. We made a shit load of money from clients who saw our site on the web. Profits are proof.

[sovereignstar]

druez you are a dictator sometimes.

[Peregrine]

Druez, this isn't a flame, but you don't have a clue what you're talking about. I've taken graduate level courses in media, and I'm doing what I need to do. If I had an infinite amount of money and time, I'd do a lot more with the site. If I wanted to risk the future of the company by hiring employees, I'd do a lot more with both the game and the site.


Great post Jim, even though I don't think you need to defend your company or its website from the random comments of trolls.

[yabanci]

I personally like this kind of website. When I go to a website for a product I don't know much about, I like to see it clearly and succinctly stated right up front what the company does and what it has to offer. I don't care so much how the website is configured or how it looks, as long as it is relatively easy to poke around and find relevant information. The Solecismic site looks well organized and just about everything you would want to know is included there, even though it doesn't look like MTV's site.

[FBPro]

Jim,

Nice update, thanks for telling what needs to be told. Also good job of investing time where it needs to be "in the game"!!

[JonInMiddleGA]

Great post Jim, even though I don't think you need to defend your company or its website from the random comments of trolls.
I was all set to write a post to comment on Jim's comments ... and then discovered you'd covered a big part of my territory.

Thanks Peregrine http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

[BigJohn&TheLions]

Looks like Jim's been busy! My one complaint would be having to scroll left and right to actually read. Kinda like looking at a player in the game...

[Ben E Lou]

I saw this post from skydog and thought maybe Jim was finally getting it. I still see he isn't getting it.

As we enter 2004, the future remains uncertain. As I've reached six years "unemployed", I hope to continue to make Solecismic Software my career. Angela and I had a baby boy, Gregory, in March of 2003, and we're fortunate that the company has been successful enough to allow her to spend all of her time raising him.

Sounds like Jim gets it to me, BIG-time. That paragraph alone says enough for me about how he runs the company, and how it is doing.

[Subby]

Corporate web site and message boards suck. I am glad Jim concentrates on what is important instead of devoting resources to something that is fairly meaningless.

[Maple Leafs]

Maple Leafs, that isn't Javascript, that's a style sheet.
Correct of course. My bad for assuming.

Still not sure what value it adds to the overall design, but css is a much better option than script.

[BigJohn&TheLions]

Sounds like Jim gets it to me, BIG-time. That paragraph alone says enough for me about how he runs the company, and how it is doing.
Agreed. Looks like people who need glossy sites over family don't get it...

[WSUCougar]

This thread could be a great representative sample of...something. But I already blew my over/under bet on when somebody would chime in with a "fanboy" accusation. :D

[SirFozzie]

So.. just checking.. are we in concert in agreeing that druez is a quote, "f***ing elitist"?

Congrats Jason, you hit the big time!

(note: Content is intended to be humorous)

[HornedFrog Purple]

I like it... but I always did.

[Maple Leafs]

It's not about flash. At least I hope it's not. If anything, if I was redesigning the site I'd go even simpler.

I think you have to look at the site from the perspective of a first-time visitor who has little or no idea what FOF is but has found the link through a search engine or web site. You have a very short time (seconds, not minutes) to convert that person into a potential customer.

On that front, the site is better than it was before because it tells you right away what the company is and what it does. (By the way, is the part about "dedicated to producing cutting-edge career football simulations" new? If so, isn't that a pretty strong hint about future games?)

You don't need to hire a designer and overhaul a site to improve its performance. You'd be amazed how very small changes can result in big improvements. There seems to be this idea out there, even today, that web design is some sort of mysterious art that can only be practiced by people with goatees and black turtlenecks. It's not. About 90% of it is very simple stuff. I think the site is on the right track. There's room for improvement, just like there is on every other site in the world.

(Of course, this all assumes that Jim wants to convert new customers and increase his market share, which as others have pointed out may not actually be a valid assumption. Not everyone wants to be EA, for good reason.)

[AgPete]

If you consider the game as art, instead of as a flashy consumer product designed to sell as many copies as possible, suddenly, it all makes sense.

I, for one, am incredibly pleased to have found such a game/atmosphere.

I appreciate how quickly the website loads on my browser, and gets me to the right information. That's just as aesthetic as can be.

I agree. Flash is the most overrated product in the web design business. Most people could care less about spiffy flash sites. They just waste bandwidth and waste my time. Just give me a basic well organized layout.

[Solecismic]

Thanks for understanding.

One of my pet peeves when on a web site is not being able to navigate. I turn off Javascript for security reasons. I don't use Flash.

And often, especially on major corporate web sites, I can't get to much of the site. When I was buying my new PC the other day, there was one company site I visited - VooDoo PC - that has great ratings. I wanted to price out a PC there. But for the life of me I couldn't figure out how to get to the sales page. So VooDoo never made it to the short list (I ended up buying from Envision).

My goal with the web site is to present the information customers want as clearly as possible. So, with the redesign (and it was a small one as redesigns go), I did the following:

1) Replaced the big screenshot at the top of most pages with the banner. Newspapers and newspaper web sites do it this way, and I like it because it tells you where you are and what the company is about, and shows off a little bit (even if you don't like mauve). The big screenshot was distracting in that you have to scroll down a bit just to see the main point of every page.

2) Cleaned up the navigation bar. The style sheet wasn't working on all browsers, so I fixed that up. I changed the all-caps look and moved the logo to the bottom.

3) Implemented php throughout the site. Php is just used to create web pages on the fly, and it is supported by my ISP's server, so there's no risk that people can't read it. It saves me a lot of time on future organizational changes to the site.

4) Combined the support and faq sections for each game into one page. Those had become very repetitive. I also did a minor rewrite on the About Solecismic page.

5) Reorganized the main page. This was probably the most important change. Information was a bit disorganized there, so I wanted to clean it up by using major headlines and rewriting the text to clarify the main areas of the web site. Maple Leafs - that statement was always there, so it's a testimony to the redesign that it helped you find it.

There's still one limitation, and I'll have to think about changing it - the site scrolls off to the right if your screen resolution is below 1024 in width. Since FOF 2004 now does the same thing, I felt it was okay, but I'll have to see how that plays out in the longer term.

[Vegas Vic]

He doesn't have a flashy site, and my PlayStation 2 controller isn't compatibile with any of his games. Why do I waste my time with his stuff? :confused:

[wig]

Druez, this isn't a flame, but you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

I wish you had told me about your relationship with the competition before you reviewed my product - your post as well as the behavior that got you banned from this site make me believe you still have an agenda here.

I'll even list FOFC if SkyDog stops unbanning those who so richly deserved it in the first place.

Jim went all hard-core on us.

Hell yeah!

[wig]

What did the five fingers say to the face?

SLAP!

[Solecismic]

I wouldn't read much into it, Wig. No need to fan flames that don't really exist.

[Fritz]

DING!

[cuervo72]

I'm very tempted to have a go at reworking that banner.....

[druez]

Druez, this isn't a flame, but you don't have a clue what you're talking about. I've taken graduate level courses in media, and I'm doing what I need to do. If I had an infinite amount of money and time, I'd do a lot more with the site. If I wanted to risk the future of the company by hiring employees, I'd do a lot more with both the game and the site.

All flash is going to do is fool some people into thinking they're getting a different product. Integrity is very important to me. I wish you had told me about your relationship with the competition before you reviewed my product - your post as well as the behavior that got you banned from this site make me believe you still have an agenda here.

Maple Leafs, that isn't Javascript, that's a style sheet.

Jeff, yes, that's Souhegan. We no longer vote at the Wilkins school, which is a shame because it's much closer to home.

There aren't any links on the community page yet because no one's asked (at least as of the last mail forwarding this afternoon). Tell me about your leagues. VPI, if you want that one listed, let me know. I'll even list FOFC if SkyDog stops unbanning those who so richly deserved it in the first place.

Jim I still have the email response that I gave you. I told you I was beta testing their product. So your claims are a bit unfounded. I also gave you a good review. In fact I gave you a higher review then gamespot did. I got banned from this forum for arguing with skydog. I have no agenda here other then I would like you to make your product more mainstream. .400 doesn't pay me, they don't give me things and in fact they dislike how I act more then you guys do.

Its a simple fact that your website hardly changed at all. It appeals to the people on this forum and if that is all you want to impress then great job. I use this example, I've tried to get numerious friends of mine to play FOF in the past, but one look and they were turned off. Going to your website, they chuckled and said are you serious? Perception is a great part of marketing.

I close with this. Jim you make a great product but the presentation of your product leaves alot to be desired.

Done on this topic.

[RedKingGold]

Good, now we can get back to more important things, like "Why is "Around the Horn" still on ESPN and not cancelled"?

[Maple Leafs]

5) Reorganized the main page. This was probably the most important change. Information was a bit disorganized there, so I wanted to clean it up by using major headlines and rewriting the text to clarify the main areas of the web site. Maple Leafs - that statement was always there, so it's a testimony to the redesign that it helped you find it. Good work there. Orgazining your information is far more important than any graphic changes you could spend time on. Sounds like you get that.

I'd still work in some selective bolding to highlight key points, add a bullet list of features for each of the flagship products, and yes, move to an easier-to-read white background. Right now the page has good information, but it's set up more for a reader than a scanner.

I'd also put a link to each demo right at the top, immediately after "We invite you to try out the free demonstration versions of both games." Yes, the links are just a few scrolls down the page, but if your visitors are anything like mine, they love the idea of free demos. Not sure how much traffic-measurement you're doing, but my guess is those links would get a ton of clicks.

And of course, as always, be wary of unsolicited web advice.

[Ben E Lou]

Blah...blah...blah...
And of course, as always, be wary of unsolicited web advice.:D

[Fritz]

jim more flash less pan please thank you

[cuervo72]

Just an attempt to cleanup the football in the logo (not transparent, wouldn't really work on the forum):

http://cuervo72.majecc.net/logos/Solecismic-Logo-sm.gif

[StormcloudCreations]

Druez, this isn't a flame, but you don't have a clue what you're talking about. I've taken graduate level courses in media, and I'm doing what I need to do. If I had an infinite amount of money and time, I'd do a lot more with the site. If I wanted to risk the future of the company by hiring employees, I'd do a lot more with both the game and the site.

But...you have a devoted loyal fan base thousands strong, so I don't feel like this would be such a risk business wise. Adding more "glitter" at this point isn't really risky (unless you undermine your wonderful design principles you've already established while doing so), and all it would serve to do is attract new blood to your site and products. I do know that "flash" can improve sales and fortunes for a smaller dev, from the perspective of one.

If I had the solid fan base you seem to have, I would do nothing but sink energy and time into improving the products, both internally with new features AND slicker presentation. That way you keep your existing fanbase, and attract new fans you might not have gotten before. You've gotten good reviews and have a fair baseline by now of what kind of sales you would already get, so the "risk" is lessened considerably.

I don't think people here expect a site filled with Flash animation and fireworks (in fact, I'm not a big fan of those sites either). But some more...modern, slick design elements could do nothing but help, and that type of thing doesn't really cost much nowadays with competition in Web Design being what it is.

I redid my own website a year or so ago (my old design was fairly old and quite unattractive), and noticed an immediate improvement in overall sales (about 23%, too big to be a coincidence) and consistency of sales. It does matter to a fair amount of people. Perception can be a big part of things, especially when selling things are involved.

Just some random thoughts from a guy who's been (and still is) in the trenches himself, fighting for that large loyal customer base you're lucky enough to have already. :)

[yabanci]

One thing I hate, but the way, is flash animation and javascript popups (even for legitimate content). Since 90% of flash animation is used for advertising, I won't even install it on my computer (actually I have a little utility that can turn it on if I really need to), and my anti-advertising software (AdSubtract) blocks popups. If I end up at a site that requires flash and popups, I usually just leave unless access to the site is absolutely necessary.

[Maple Leafs]

One thing I hate, but the way, is flash animation and javascript popups (even for legitimate content). Since 90% of flash animation is used for advertising, I won't even install it on my computer (actually I have a little utility that can turn it on if I really need to), and my anti-advertising software (AdSubtract) blocks popups. If I end up at a site that requires flash and popups, I usually just leave unless access to the site is absolutely necessary.Has anyone ever watched an entire flash intro without hitting the "skip intro"button? I mean, ever? In history?

[wig]

I wouldn't read much into it, Wig. No need to fan flames that don't really exist.

You don't watch "Chapelle's Show", do you?

[Noop]

Wig?

[wig]

noop?

[gstelmack]

Here's a vote in favor of Jim keeping it simple like he always has. Graphics and fluff just get in the way of finding the information...

[JasonC23]

For some reason, I'm reminded, as I often am, of some things Homer Simpson said. "Come on, Marge, less artsy, more fartsy!" and "Boy, everyone is stupid except me."

Are these quotes relevant? Probably not, but I love quoting Homer. :cool:

It's fun to read these posts and see how there's a right way to say something (StormcloudCreations) and a wrong way to say something (3 guesses, and the first 2 don't count). Sometimes, approach is everything.

PS: Jim, thanks for redesigning your site. I finally downloaded 5.0d last night, and I found the site definitely easier on the eyes.

[Solecismic]

Jim I still have the email response that I gave you. I told you I was beta testing their product. So your claims are a bit unfounded. I also gave you a good review. In fact I gave you a higher review then gamespot did. I got banned from this forum for arguing with skydog. I have no agenda here other then I would like you to make your product more mainstream. .400 doesn't pay me, they don't give me things and in fact they dislike how I act more then you guys do.

Its a simple fact that your website hardly changed at all. It appeals to the people on this forum and if that is all you want to impress then great job. I use this example, I've tried to get numerious friends of mine to play FOF in the past, but one look and they were turned off. Going to your website, they chuckled and said are you serious? Perception is a great part of marketing.

I close with this. Jim you make a great product but the presentation of your product leaves alot to be desired.

Done on this topic.


I'll just say in response that in reviewing the email, I see that I asked you if you were a beta tester, and you replied that you were writing weekly previews. A non-denial denial, in hindsight. A definite conflict of interest, though. I would have replied differently had I known.

I'm sorry that your friends giggled at the web site, but given the way you behaved in order to get banned here, I wonder if they'd really be into this type of game regardless. Some people giggle at CNN.com, too.


(replying to Derek)

The goal of my web site is to provide the facts, as simply as possible. I can't navigate your site with images off, and there is Javascript as well. It's hard to move around. While the graphics are nice, the buttons have that look I'm trying to avoid - a little whiz-bang but not professional whiz-bang.
There are some nice images in your game, and incorporating them into the site is great. I'd definitely change the front page, though, and provide different navigation options. The front page makes it look as if there isn't as much in the site.

Our games are a little different, and the audience I'm looking for is probably a little more comfortable without flashy graphics. I need to tailor it to my intended audience. If people can find what they're looking for quickly and if people see the image of the game I'm trying to portray (through the banner and the screen shots), I think I'm maximizing the appeal of the site.

I hope I'm not lucky to have a small core audience. I've been doing this for six years now, and no one's being forced to buy the latest games (in fact FOF2004 has sold more in its first three months than FOF 4 did, period).

Time is my only real asset. Any time spent with graphics is time that could be spent elsewhere. I think what I did with FOF 2004 was effective, graphically. Once you've played the game for a while, you appreciate that the screen space is used for information rather than clip art.

Wig, no, never heard of him.

[jeff061]

"(in fact FOF2004 has sold more in its first three months than FOF 4 did, period)."

Thats pretty cool to hear. You're doing something right :).

[dawgfan]

There seems to be a misconception here that graphically pleasing design comes at a cost of easier navigation and finding information. These are not 2 extremes of an axis.

My first experience with FOF was the first year EA published it, and I found that website and the graphical design of the game attractive. I was less pleased with the sequel, my primary complaint being the tiny scroll bars and some less successful menu design choices (along with the D3D issues). I think Jim does a good job with his 'spreadsheet' look to his games, but that doesn't mean that the same information he's presenting couldn't be done with the same essential design and more pleasing graphical elements.

There are a few things to ponder here - from Jim's perspective, he seems to be doing OK financially with the amount of business he currently does. In that respect, he may not feel a tremendous amount of pressure to vastly increase his market. Taking on employees and/or subcontracting certain graphic design work presents some financial risk for him. There is certainly a pretty devoted market currently for his games, though not (yet anyway) a particularly large one. As this thread has shown, some prefer the game's look to stay the same.

That said, I agree with the contention that a more 'professional' looking website and game would attract a larger audience. Perception is reality, and for some that come across his website or game and see what they perceive as a low-budget production they'll assume that it can't really be all that good if it looks like that.

Aesthetically pleasing design, when done well, improves the entire package. Think of Samsung, a company that was really an also-ran in electronic goods several years ago. They went in for a stylistic makeover, and now they right there with vying with the other companies for 2nd place behind Sony. It wasn't all due to great-looking design, but it helped.

If I didn't already work in the sports games industry, I'd volunteer graphic design ideas to Jim because I like his game, I think the underlying information design is solid, but the actual graphical elements could be improved without obscuring the ability to navigate the game or locate information.

[StormcloudCreations]

The goal of my web site is to provide the facts, as simply as possible. I can't navigate your site with images off, and there is Javascript as well. It's hard to move around. While the graphics are nice, the buttons have that look I'm trying to avoid - a little whiz-bang but not professional whiz-bang.
There are some nice images in your game, and incorporating them into the site is great. I'd definitely change the front page, though, and provide different navigation options. The front page makes it look as if there isn't as much in the site.

Time is my only real asset. Any time spent with graphics is time that could be spent elsewhere. I think what I did with FOF 2004 was effective, graphically. Once you've played the game for a while, you appreciate that the screen space is used for information rather than clip art.

I agree that your presentation of info is very good, and is the core of what makes the games work. I think I was simply making a point about bringing in new blood with slightly slicker presentation as a possibility to consider. It wasn't about "clip art" or subverting your design principles or info depth in favor of flash.

About my site: Yes, i've been meaning to clean up the way the buttons are layed out, and such. As far as images being off, only about 2% of my visitors have images off, so I didn't think redesigning it for that was very efficient. Having images off when surfing the net is kinda like wearing a blindfold to an art gallery in my mind. :) The Javascript is very small, nothing huge (just counter/system stuff so I can see how many wandered onto the site) and according to my stats, only about 5% have Java turned off when visiting.

I believe what you believe though, I tried to lay everything out simply and easily, so that info is quick to find without going through page after page, and I use the Shrapnel site links to present info and the like, since its there anyway. Repeating the same stuff on my site would be sorta redundant, IMO. Gotta make that publisher work for their money. :p

Glad to hear about your strong sales. A very good thing.

[corbes]

There's also a misconception that spreadsheets are not graphically pleasing. A well-executed spreadsheet can be very pleasing -- and easy to look at.

(Dawgfan, not intended as a smack at you at all, even though I used your words. You make a responsible argument for your position.)

[corbes]

dola -

I surfed the internet via telnet text as recently as a year ago. There's a lot of days, as I wait for a browser to load something silly, that I really miss it.

[dawgfan]

There's also a misconception that spreadsheets are not graphically pleasing. A well-executed spreadsheet can be very pleasing -- and easy to look at.

(Dawgfan, not intended as a smack at you at all, even though I used your words. You make a responsible argument for your position.)

No offense taken.

The key element in your statement though is "well-executed". A plain, straight out of the box spreadsheet is not as good as one that is well-designed, both in terms of laying out the information as well as highlighting the important parts and editing it in such a way as to make the results easy to grasp and understand. You can obviously go too far the other way as well in trying to be stylish and begin obscuring or de-emphasising the important information.

[jeff061]

I prefer FOF's look and interface infinitely to OOTP's.

I'm a simple, efficient and functional type of guy.

[corbes]

No offense taken.

The key element in your statement though is "well-executed". A plain, straight out of the box spreadsheet is not as good as one that is well-designed, both in terms of laying out the information as well as highlighting the important parts and editing it in such a way as to make the results easy to grasp and understand. You can obviously go too far the other way as well in trying to be stylish and begin obscuring or de-emphasising the important information.

I concur.

[Nyarlahotep]

What did the five fingers say to the face?

SLAP!


I'm Rick James b**ch. :D

[AgPete]

I'm Rick James b**ch. :D

I didn't get a chance to watch Chapelle's last show. :(

[wig]

Bitches! Come over here and have sex with Charlie Murphy!

[druez]

I'll just say in response that in reviewing the email, I see that I asked you if you were a beta tester, and you replied that you were writing weekly previews. A non-denial denial, in hindsight. A definite conflict of interest, though. I would have replied differently had I known.

I'm sorry that your friends giggled at the web site, but given the way you behaved in order to get banned here, I wonder if they'd really be into this type of game regardless. Some people giggle at CNN.com, too.



Jim, your fans have even at times griped about your closeminded approach to your game. In fact it took you years to put in multiplayer even though this community asked for it over and over again. "I would be willing to bet you put that in because another game announced multiplayer"

I'll use Willey-T for example, I tried to get him to play your games for years. But he wouldn't touch it. The static look just didn't intrest him in the slightest bit. I showed him Total Pro Football and he was willing to try it. There is a largue audiance out there for your style of game, if you simply just try and cater to the other people out there. The great championship manager series out there sells 750k copies a year. I can pretty much guarantee you if they had the same look and feel of your game that number would not be anywhere near what they do now.

After reading over this stuff, I realize that you don't want to expand your customer base beyond what you have. That is fine, I just always assumed you would rather sell 100k - 750k copies of your game rather then the 5k to 10k you sell now. My suggestions to you in both my review and in this document were geared toward you trying to tap into the other 10 million football fans out there, fantasy football players or the Madden Coach Mode players etc.

Onto to your statement about how you would of answered differently about my review request. I don't need your permission or anyone elses to write a review of your product. The only thing you could of done was not given me a press copy. I've bought every single game you have made and enjoyed them all and if you didn't give me a press copy, I would of purchased this one.

I go on to point out again, that I have given you one of the highest reviews of your product, but it doesn't change the fact the game is not visually appealing.

The friends you blow off so casually because they giggled at your site are the same ones I run a Championship Manager league with. The same people that bought Total Pro Football and played Front Page Sports Football and Madden 2002 in coach mode.

It's easy to get offended by me, I'm often very blunt. If I would of posted my first post in any other forum the reaction I received would of been totally different. Here because I question or critizise I get labled as an asshole, dickhead, troublemaker or .400 fanboy.

I came to this forum, because it was presented as a neutrel message board forum where we can talk about any text based sims on the market. I've come to conclude over the last four months, that the board is mainly for talking about politics and sports issues and a Front Office Football forum.

The fans of your game are devoted and very biased to your product. The same flaws that are found in your game that are found in another title are brushed away with ease and excuses. While the other title will be ripped to shreads here. I've been critical of both your products and .400 products in what I like to see put into them.

I find it funny that people think I'm support .400 so die hard. I was one of the biggest vocal complainers about their buggy releases in the past.

On a personal note and you can read that in the email I sent you a while back. I think competition between the two products is a good thing and won't allow you or .400 to sit on their laurels.

All I've tried to do is promote this genre to people that aren't into it. I've tried to push the designers of these products to adopt the same level of quality and flash of the great SI games CM4. I love text based managment sims, but I'm a bit tired of the garage games mentality of playing a spreadsheet. In over 5 years now? I would of thought this game could of done so much more in terms of the presentation of the product and the promotion of the product to the masses.

[wig]

Someone takes themselves a bit too seriously.

[jeff061]

You're done on this topic, remember?

[cthomer5000]

Who is he quoting in the first paragraph? Himself?

[Easy Mac]

I prefer FOF's look and interface infinitely to OOTP's.

I'm a simple, efficient and functional type of guy.
I'm sure your girlfriend is ecstatic with this. :)

[wig]

"I think this guy is a tool"

[hukarez]

Hey, Jim!

Really like the little twist to the website and all. Hopefully, that community link and what not will lead to more leagues, once folks start submitting them in!

Keep up the good work!

[jeff061]

LOL Mac, i spend my energy elsewhere ;).

[Easy Mac]

LOL Mac, i spend my energy elsewhere ;). The Afoci really doesn't take much energy...

[FargoFreez aka fof playa]

Edit by SkyDog: No need to bring this back up.

Damn! Sorry. :(

[Easy Mac]

worst haiku ever!

[sabotai]

The funny thing is druez actually beleives that he was banned simply for disagreeing with SkyDog. I can't help but laugh whenever he tries to push that.

And to say no one here has ever critisized Jim's games just shows how in denial he really is. I remember FOF4 getting blasted by several people here, including me.

[sabotai]

I came to this forum, because it was presented as a neutrel message board forum where we can talk about any text based sims on the market. I've come to conclude over the last four months, that the board is mainly for talking about politics and sports issues and a Front Office Football forum.

Yeah, because we NEVER talk about other sims on this board...

[GoldenEagle]

Yeah, because we NEVER talk about other sims on this board...

There is other text sim besides FOF?

[Hurst2112]

Edit by SkyDog: No need to bring this back up.

Damn...yet another deletion. I have never seen so many.

[Passacaglia]

Onto to your statement about how you would of answered differently about my review request. I don't need your permission or anyone elses to write a review of your product. The only thing you could of done was not given me a press copy. I've bought every single game you have made and enjoyed them all and if you didn't give me a press copy, I would of purchased this one.



I hope you have a good editor.

[Samdari]

Here's a vote in favor of Jim keeping it simple like he always has. Graphics and fluff just get in the way of finding the information...

I don't agree with this. I know I am in the minority here, but I think that the game Jim has created (which I love) could be improved with better presentation. Making the presentation more attractive or pleasing to the eye, could indeed make it easier to find the information. That is actually one of the things I don't like about FOF - the way the information is organized and accessed. It could be redesigned to be a little more pleasing to the eye, and better organized at the same time. Contrary to a lot of opinions around here, the two are not mutually exclusive. Now, Jim's time IS a zero sum game, so any time spent improving the look would take away from engine/sim development time, and far be it from me to tell him how to run his business (i.e. hire others to do artwork. I think after 5 games or so, we can all agree artistry is not Jim's strong point) but the idea that a more appealing look would instantly and necesarily make the game worse is somewhat ridiculous, no?

[yabanci]

I used to think the most ridiculous post ever on this board was the guy who explained how to be cocky and funny while trying to pick up chicks in internet chat rooms. Bubba Wheels' recent "viral plague" conspiracy theory post has been quickly moving up the charts as well. But this "Ode to SkyDog," which I did not see when it was posted, has shot to the top with a bullet.

[jeff061]

Give more information, in a smaller area, thats easier to manipulate to display what i want it to display.

Thats what i want, it could be ugly, or pretty.

[Ben E Lou]

Edit by SkyDog: No need to bring this back up.

Damn! Sorry. :(No prob. I booted him off the board. He asked to come back. I let him come back. I don't see anything constructive at this point about bringing an old fight back up.

[WSUCougar]

critizise
neutrel
You missed these, Passacaglia. ;)

[Hurst2112]

could uh...hehe

[Passacaglia]

You missed these, Passacaglia. ;)

I'm sorry that I didn't include all the flashy corrections, WSUCougar. You see, time is my only asset, and my time is required to make other various witty comments in different threads.

[WSUCougar]

I'm sorry that I didn't include all the flashy corrections, WSUCougar. You see, time is my only asset, and my time is required to make other various witty comments in different threads.
Hey, my review of you're post was done gratis, and I don't need you're permiscion to review you're posts. If you don'y want more than the 2 or 3 fans you of, then great job.

Or something.

[Passacaglia]

Hey, my review of you're post was done gratis, and I don't need you're permiscion to review you're posts. If you don'y want more than the 2 or 3 fans you of, then great job.

Or something.

Thaynx

[Buccaneer]

There seems to be a misconception here that graphically pleasing design comes at a cost of easier navigation and finding information. These are not 2 extremes of an axis.

My first experience with FOF was the first year EA published it, and I found that website and the graphical design of the game attractive. I was less pleased with the sequel, my primary complaint being the tiny scroll bars and some less successful menu design choices (along with the D3D issues). I think Jim does a good job with his 'spreadsheet' look to his games, but that doesn't mean that the same information he's presenting couldn't be done with the same essential design and more pleasing graphical elements.

There are a few things to ponder here - from Jim's perspective, he seems to be doing OK financially with the amount of business he currently does. In that respect, he may not feel a tremendous amount of pressure to vastly increase his market. Taking on employees and/or subcontracting certain graphic design work presents some financial risk for him. There is certainly a pretty devoted market currently for his games, though not (yet anyway) a particularly large one. As this thread has shown, some prefer the game's look to stay the same.

That said, I agree with the contention that a more 'professional' looking website and game would attract a larger audience. Perception is reality, and for some that come across his website or game and see what they perceive as a low-budget production they'll assume that it can't really be all that good if it looks like that.

Aesthetically pleasing design, when done well, improves the entire package. Think of Samsung, a company that was really an also-ran in electronic goods several years ago. They went in for a stylistic makeover, and now they right there with vying with the other companies for 2nd place behind Sony. It wasn't all due to great-looking design, but it helped.

If I didn't already work in the sports games industry, I'd volunteer graphic design ideas to Jim because I like his game, I think the underlying information design is solid, but the actual graphical elements could be improved without obscuring the ability to navigate the game or locate information.
I agree with this. There are quite a few strategy games that offers screens of information in row/column format but they don't look like some Excel 101 project. Maybe TPF or CM would be a good example, I don't know. Regardless of the engine, presentation (thus, immersion) does play a role for some when playing these type of games.

But truthfully, I don't really have that much problem with the presentation. It is functional and gets at the information the user needs.

My beef (and why I won't play FOF SP) has always been the oft-stated design choice of only presenting numbers and spreadsheets and let the user imagine what they mean. Specifically, more complete sentences and short paragraphs instead of more rows and columns - just like the real NFL.

Ever see a scouting report from a scout? Not just raw numbers, but analyses as well. For example, remember that maxed-out RB that someone posted last week? I had several critical questions that the numbers don't tell me (e.g., how would his small-school competition translate to the pros? How does his college stats matches against his potential for the pros? How would he fit on my given what I have?).

Ever read about real-life contract negotiations? It's a lot more than just 'it's not close'.

Ever read about how real NFL coaches and GMs have to deal with owners? The media?

Ever read about real-life trade negotiations? It's a lot more than just 'this trade does not bring enough talent in return'.

But then again, if the game looked better (which even Jim admitted he would) or that it went beyond pure spreadsheet (ala CM), then he would have to deal with more customers. It is up to each business to determine the comfort level of sales and not make the mistake of taking on more than one wants to handle.

[yabanci]

I've found the only way to get the AI teams to approximate thinking like real people is to play multiplayer.

[korme]

There are many sites that do not require a lot of fancy graphics to look very pretty.

i love the waferbaby (www.waferbaby.com) design and tried to mimick it a bit for the JBL, of course not so well. Little improvements go a long way, you don't need a flashdrop down menu to make a nice site.

[cthomer5000]

There are many sites that do not require a lot of fancy graphics to look very pretty.

i love the waferbaby (www.waferbaby.com) design and tried to mimick it a bit for the JBL, of course not so well. Little improvements go a long way, you don't need a flashdrop down menu to make a nice site.


Me and my friends are giggling right now.

[Buccaneer]

Only Shorty would bring up waferbaby. :rolleyes:

[Solecismic]

Jim, your fans have even at times griped about your closeminded approach to your game. In fact it took you years to put in multiplayer even though this community asked for it over and over again. "I would be willing to bet you put that in because another game announced multiplayer"

You would lose that bet. And really, isn't it time to retire the close-minded straw man? There's only so much I can do in a year, and the sheer number of suggestions far exceed that. Making decisions is just part of this job, and I read every suggestion I receive. I would never have gotten this far without listening to the customers.

After reading over this stuff, I realize that you don't want to expand your customer base beyond what you have. That is fine, I just always assumed you would rather sell 100k - 750k copies of your game rather then the 5k to 10k you sell now. My suggestions to you in both my review and in this document were geared toward you trying to tap into the other 10 million football fans out there, fantasy football players or the Madden Coach Mode players etc.

Promise me 100,000 sales from redoing my web site, and I'll hire the best design firm in the entire world to do it. I'll even let them use Javascript if that's their advice.

Onto to your statement about how you would of answered differently about my review request. I don't need your permission or anyone elses to write a review of your product. The only thing you could of done was not given me a press copy. I've bought every single game you have made and enjoyed them all and if you didn't give me a press copy, I would of purchased this one.

My complaint is about integrity. I asked you a direct question and you Clintoned me. Sure, you can write about whatever you want to write about. But there's an ethics problem with being a beta tester on one game and reviewing a competitor. I think your implosion on 12/2 may be related.


The friends you blow off so casually because they giggled at your site are the same ones I run a Championship Manager league with. The same people that bought Total Pro Football and played Front Page Sports Football and Madden 2002 in coach mode.

I'm not blowing anyone off. You make them sound like children who need to be led around by their friend Jason. I had this mental image of the Life Cereal/Mikey commercial from what you posted. "I'm not gonna try it..."

It's easy to get offended by me, I'm often very blunt. If I would of posted my first post in any other forum the reaction I received would of been totally different. Here because I question or critizise I get labled as an asshole, dickhead, troublemaker or .400 fanboy.

I wish you'd provide specific criticisms rather than just ranting and raving. Yes, we know you like whiz-bang. Why not suggest exactly where whiz-bang would improve the product rather than condemning everything?



The fans of your game are devoted and very biased to your product. The same flaws that are found in your game that are found in another title are brushed away with ease and excuses. While the other title will be ripped to shreads here. I've been critical of both your products and .400 products in what I like to see put into them.

No, that's not true. If you can't understand my response, try re-reading it. There's only so much development time. A good reviewer understands that and makes more specific suggestions. Ranting and raving and making wild accusations only makes you look like a nutcase. I don't dismiss what you say, but so far, you're not doing a good job of saying it.


On a personal note and you can read that in the email I sent you a while back. I think competition between the two products is a good thing and won't allow you or .400 to sit on their laurels.

What a weird thing to say. Sitting on what laurels? I put in a lot of time with every version of the game. Of course competition is a good thing. If my business plan was to re-release FOF 4 with new rosters and just a couple of new features, then attack .400, I'm certain that every single person on this forum would dismiss me as a lunatic, and view TPF as the only game with a viable future. Competition changes nothing about my approach to the series, but it does bring needed attention to the genre. I'm sure TPF's exposure sells more games for me, and vice versa.

All I've tried to do is promote this genre to people that aren't into it. I've tried to push the designers of these products to adopt the same level of quality and flash of the great SI games CM4. I love text based managment sims, but I'm a bit tired of the garage games mentality of playing a spreadsheet. In over 5 years now? I would of thought this game could of done so much more in terms of the presentation of the product and the promotion of the product to the masses.

I'm sorry you're tired of my approach, but I'm the one taking all the risk here, and it's my call. .400 has a different approach, and it's valid, too. Pushing either of us around is not a productive use of your time. Especially given your reputation.

[Buccaneer]

druez has been shutupped, right?

[Franklinnoble]

It's fine with me if Jim keeps things simple... I just don't see a lot of flashy crap coming to the FOF series until Bill Gates makes him a million dollar offer, and we see "Microsoft Front Office Football XP"

[korme]

:ashamed:

[korme]

Only Shorty would bring up waferbaby. :rolleyes:

I don't get it, cthomer was making a crack at druez. What's wrong wit da baby?

[Maple Leafs]

Promise me 100,000 sales from redoing my web site, and I'll hire the best design firm in the entire world to do it. I'll even let them use Javascript if that's their advice.Obviously this isn't possible. But even small changes, that require no outside help and take only a few minutes, can have a significant impact on conversions. It won't make you rich, but even a 5% increase in sales through your web site would add up to something noticeable.

(Warning: I do this sort of thing for a living for a fairly large web site. That doesn't make me smarter than anyone here, but it does mean that I find this stuff personally interesting and will therefore continue to babble on about it long after everyone else loses interest.)

P.S. Druez, go away.

[wig]

Website?? Website?? We're talkin' about website???

Not a game, not a game, not a game... website.

[WSUCougar]

Where are you, wig, the Grand Canyon?

[korme]

Let me see your tit-tays

[wig]

I think I heard Allen Iverson say that

[Hurst2112]

druez has been shutupped, right?


Not for long now. Too bad. I thought this would have been finished many posts ago.

[Buzzbee]

Jim, your fans have even at times griped about your closeminded approach to your game. In fact it took you years to put in multiplayer even though this community asked for it over and over again. "I would be willing to bet you put that in because another game announced multiplayer"

Perhaps he was/is close-minded, but he was open-minded enough to put it in the game.


I'll use Willey-T for example, I tried to get him to play your games for years. But he wouldn't touch it. The static look just didn't intrest him in the slightest bit. I showed him Total Pro Football and he was willing to try it. There is a largue audiance out there for your style of game, if you simply just try and cater to the other people out there. The great championship manager series out there sells 750k copies a year. I can pretty much guarantee you if they had the same look and feel of your game that number would not be anywhere near what they do now.

There also might be a large audience out there if Jim were to put mpegs of naked cheerleaders in the game, but that doesn't mean that is something he necessarily wants, or needs to do. Hey, I know! Jim could add a topless sideline reporter and Joe Namath could keep repeating "I'd really like to touch your boobie." Just because there might be an audience for it, doesn't make it a necessity for Jim to put in HIS game.

In regard to the "great" championship manager, seems like they should add some more graphics since they have such a small sliver of the millions of soccer/futbol fans around the world. Oh, and your right, the number of copies sold wouldn't be near where they are now. It would be MUCH, MUCH higher. :p


After reading over this stuff, I realize that you don't want to expand your customer base beyond what you have. That is fine, I just always assumed you would rather sell 100k - 750k copies of your game rather then the 5k to 10k you sell now. My suggestions to you in both my review and in this document were geared toward you trying to tap into the other 10 million football fans out there, fantasy football players or the Madden Coach Mode players etc.

Ummmm...you write game reviews. Jim owns his own business and has done so successfully for 6 years. I think he's more qualified to decide how to continue running his business. Sit down. Shut up.


Onto to your statement about how you would of [have] answered differently about my review request. I don't need your permission or anyone elses to write a review of your product. The only thing you could of [have] done was not given me a press copy. I've bought every single game you have made and enjoyed them all and if you didn't give me a press copy, I would of [have] purchased this one.

So, why don't you send Jim a check?


I go on to point out again, that I have given you one of the highest reviews of your product, but it doesn't change the fact the game is not visually appealing.

It's visually appealing to me, so does that change the "fact" that the game is not visually appealing? It isn't visually appealing in YOUR OPINION, and it is your OPINION that the game should contain more graphics to make it more visually appealing. It is also your OPINION that if it had more graphics, it would sell more.


The friends you blow off so casually because they giggled at your site are the same ones I run a Championship Manager league with. The same people that bought Total Pro Football and played Front Page Sports Football and Madden 2002 in coach mode.

Bravo. Congratulations to them and to you. Perhaps if Jim spent his time working on adding some pretty pictures and graphics to the game and to the site they might have purchased Jim's game. Perhaps if Jim added those graphics, he might not have had as much time to program the multiplayer features and would have produced a very buggy, non-playable product that they promptly would have returned.


It's easy to get offended by me, I'm often very blunt. If I would of [have] posted my first post in any other forum the reaction I received would of [have] been totally different. Here because I question or critizise I get labled as an asshole, dickhead, troublemaker or .400 fanboy.

No, you get labeled as an asshole, dickhead, troublemaker or .400 fanboy because you are, not because you disagree. Derek at StormCloud hasn't been labeled any of those things, yet he disagrees. Many here have disagreed with Jim and have been very vocal about it (Buccaneer, Hell Atlantic are a couple that come to mind) and are very active and respected members of this forum. It is your presentation, not your argument, that gets you labeled.

My comments up to this point have largely been tounge in cheek, or intended to get a laugh, but this is as serious a sentence as I'll ever post. You come across as a condescending know-it all and it turns people off and leads to them attacking you. You have your OPINIONS about how things should be, but you present them as FACTS and that anyone who doesn't heed your advice is a stupid moron.



I came to this forum, because it was presented as a neutrel message board forum where we can talk about any text based sims on the market. I've come to conclude over the last four months, that the board is mainly for talking about politics and sports issues and a Front Office Football forum.

Okay, that last observation is SHEER BRILLIANCE!!! You mean THIS is a Front Office Football Forum? Geez, and all this time I thought I was on the Barbie Colletor's Forum. Thanks for the revelation. Guess you don't wander into the Dynasty Forum or the Hattrick forum too often. Lot of sports and politics there. Also, considering you've been around for only four months, and considering that sports issues and politics have been some of the major events lately (Hmmm...let's see...Super Bowl, election year) what would you expect? Perhaps a thread about re-financing your house? Oh, wait. We had one of those. Or perhaps a thread about computer help? Oh, wait. We've had some of those too. I know, a thread about censorship and indecency in todays media. Damn! I forgot about the Janet Jackson and Howard Stern threads. Ok, I got it now. I know we haven't discussed education or teachers unions on a football board. What? We did in one of the George W threads? Ok, I think I might have one. Relationships. SURELY a bunch of guys on a football board aren't going to talk about relationships. Gee, I guess I missed the "How long to call thread" or the thread today from MIJB. Guess I can also throw out career advice and support from the community for those who have lost jobs or loved ones.
[/end rant]


The fans of your game are devoted and very biased to your product. The same flaws that are found in your game that are found in another title are brushed away with ease and excuses. While the other title will be ripped to shreads here. I've been critical of both your products and .400 products in what I like to see put into them.

Aren't fans usually biased and devoted. Isn't that what make them fans. And don't TPF fans or OOTP fans or (heaven forbid) Champ Manager fans do the same?



I find it funny that people think I'm support .400 so die hard. I was one of the biggest vocal complainers about their buggy releases in the past.

Most of your posts here tend to show that you prefer TPF's style of product over FOF. Also, you continually defend those posts in heated exchanges. Thus, the impression that you are a .400 fanboy.


On a personal note and you can read that in the email I sent you a while back. I think competition between the two products is a good thing and won't allow you or .400 to sit on their laurels.

First logical, reasonable, well conveyed paragraph you've made in this thread. In my opnion, of course. I agree totally with your statement about competition. Of course it has nothing to do with Jim's expressed displeasure about not explicitly telling him your relationship with .400.


All I've tried to do is promote this genre to people that aren't into it. I've tried to push the designers of these products to adopt the same level of quality and flash of the great SI games CM4. I love text based managment sims, but I'm a bit tired of the garage games mentality of playing a spreadsheet. In over 5 years now? I would of thought this game could of done so much more in terms of the presentation of the product and the promotion of the product to the masses.

Again, it is your OPINION that the "level of quality and flash of the great SI game CM4" is a goal others strive to achieve. It is also your OPINION that CM4 is a great game. There are many that also hold that opinion. There are others that don't. But to ASSUME that a game is going to be better because it is more like CM or has more graphics like CM is in my opinion assinine.




To distill my posts into one less lengthy summary - I don't think anyone here criticizes you for your attitudes and your passion. I think the way you present your views tends to lead to people attacking you. In other words, you come across as someone bashing the product rather than offering an opinion about what you'd like to see in the game and why. Also, just because you view Championship Manager as a great game and think that other games should be more like it, does not mean that others share that opinion.

I think you have a lot to offer to this community and hope to see you posting here more frequently. While you may characterize yourself as someone who bluntly says what's on your mind, I hope you learn that sometimes tact can be a useful means of persuasion as well. I look forward to hearing your responses to my comments since I don't really expect you to just let them slide (and would be disappointed if you did).

[WSUCougar]

See? Don't mess with my friend Buzzbee when he's been drinking.

[Buzzbee]

See? Don't mess with my friend Buzzbee when he's been drinking.

I wanna *hic* kiss yooo.

[druez]

Promise me 100,000 sales from redoing my web site, and I'll hire the best design firm in the entire world to do it. I'll even let them use Javascript if that's their advice.

Jim, I wasn't referring just to the website, but also the overall feel of the game presentation as well as how you present yourself and your company on your website.



My complaint is about integrity. I asked you a direct question and you Clintoned me. Sure, you can write about whatever you want to write about. But there's an ethics problem with being a beta tester on one game and reviewing a competitor. I think your implosion on 12/2 may be related.


Jim, I will check the email when I get home. But at the time of your review, I still had not become a beta tester for TPF. I've beta tested many games and so have other reviewers and still wrote a review for the product as well as the competitors product. Just take a look at the whole MMORPG world and those that follow and cover it. I still don't know what you mean by implosion? Arguing with Skydog over banning someone on the boards is in no way related to your game or company.


.
I'm not blowing anyone off. You make them sound like children who need to be led around by their friend Jason. I had this mental image of the Life Cereal/Mikey commercial from what you posted. "I'm not gonna try it..."


Word of mouth is probably the biggest way your style of game gets sold. Especially because you don't really market. So, I find your post above very strange.....

.
I wish you'd provide specific criticisms rather than just ranting and raving. Yes, we know you like whiz-bang. Why not suggest exactly where whiz-bang would improve the product rather than condemning everything?


Overall 4.25 of 5 stars: It’s a great game; it has always been a great game. If you ever had any desire to play Front Office Football multiplayer go buy it right now. If you have never tried a game like this, go download the demo and while you are waiting get your credit card ready, because you will like it and want the full version. As good as this game is I want more. I want things like customizable league size, radio style play-by-play, enhanced graphics, head to head coaching online, server-based multiplayer with real time drafting and free agency. While, I’m sure some of things will come a lot sooner then later, I would like them all now! Now stop reading this review and go get the game already.

Sounds pretty specific to me.

The one issue I have with the actual play-by-play is the way the result of play is put out in one shot. I would really like to see play-by-play done in steps, as you read, like an announcer on the radio. To me it builds more suspense and makes it more exciting and immersive. Hopefully in the next version or maybe a patch he can do something like this.

Again sounds pretty specific to me.

You don’t need sound to play this game at all, but I have played text based games that had sound used through out the game and in my opinion it helps make the game more immersive and exciting, especially during the play-by-play. Crowd noise, tackle sounds, announcer’s all could be added to make it feel more like you are at the game or listening to it on the radio. For that matter no game like this has done the play-by-play with voice. That would be something I would like to see in the future

again sounds pretty specific to me.

Graphics – 2 of 5 stars: I’m not basing this on graphics based games; I’m comparing it to other text-based games. Jim has not really done anything to the graphics since the first edition in my opinion. The game “looks pretty bland” and has no real visual appeal. This is something he could work on in the future to make the game stand out more and become a bit more impressive.

Not specific and this is to general and I see your point.

In other articles I've written, I've explained what I would like to see in your game or other games of this genre. I use CM4 as a prime example of this.

.
No, that's not true. If you can't understand my response, try re-reading it. There's only so much development time. A good reviewer understands that and makes more specific suggestions. Ranting and raving and making wild accusations only makes you look like a nutcase. I don't dismiss what you say, but so far, you're not doing a good job of saying it.


I disagree. Lets use the problems with NFL statistics vs. FOF generated statistics and TPF generated statistics. When there was a problem with TPF statistics a vast majority of the fans here, tore into the game and blamed the flashy graphics and ripped the engine. In a thread a few weeks ago people brought up some career rushing numbers from your game compared to the NFL and the fans here simply brushed it off. There wasn't the same "outrage" as there was when TPF had problems. When you had bugs they are overlooked and often people who complain here are at times ripped apart by some of the faithful.

But, TPF was persecuted to the core. My defense of TPF came from the unfair treatment it received here not against you or your company. Your faithful attacked TPF so I defended it, by pointing out flaws in your game. Probably not my finest moment I agree, but I thought someone needed to do it. In retrospect, I probably wouldn't of done it in the same fashion but what is done is done.


.

What a weird thing to say. Sitting on what laurels? I put in a lot of time with every version of the game. Of course competition is a good thing. If my business plan was to re-release FOF 4 with new rosters and just a couple of new features, then attack .400, I'm certain that every single person on this forum would dismiss me as a lunatic, and view TPF as the only game with a viable future. Competition changes nothing about my approach to the series, but it does bring needed attention to the genre. I'm sure TPF's exposure sells more games for me, and vice versa.


I'm not saying you don't work hard on every game. But, there is no doubt that competition inherently makes us rise to the occasion. I remember a while back, you stating that FOF was a single player game and "I could be wrong this was a few years back" it was not going to be a multiplayer game. I just thought that TPF's announcement of multiplayer might of pushed you into including it. I mean EA vs. Sega have been driving each other for years into making each game better then the last to continue to be on the edge. So have numerous other companies..... In fact its human nature.

.
I'm sorry you're tired of my approach, but I'm the one taking all the risk here, and it's my call. .400 has a different approach, and it's valid, too. Pushing either of us around is not a productive use of your time. Especially given your reputation.

Yes, Jim it is your company and your decisions. Years ago you took a huge risk, but after 6 successful games. I find it a bit hard to swallow that the risk is still as great. You have an established fan base, word of mouth is good and a site dedicated to your game. Your costs for developing this product are very low and the distribution model of eliscense lends to very high profit margins. Your only down year that I can tell was FOF4, but that was a problem with your distribution model and forcing us to mail order the game. You saw that and corrected it "good job"

If you sell 5000 copies of your game at 34.95 that gives you. $174,750.00 Now lets say Viatech charges 10 bucks a game, which I believe is high. I think they charge around 5 bucks a game, but I'm not sure. That still gives you. $124,750.00 Anyway you look at that, that’s some damn good coin. Its pretty hard for me to believe that you hiring someone to do some graphics for you, would brake your company or make your risks that much greater.

[Senator]

A perfect example of a great website for a game that does not translate into 5K sales is mine.

see below.


PS. This guy would argue with a cadaver.

[Hurst2112]

How do you guys do that quote thingy all the time and not get confused or screw it up?

[Fritz]

FWIW, I only want more BANG! I am satisfied with the level of Whiz.

Jim, please add more BANG! And if you have left over time, some DING! would be nice.

you have nice hair

[yabanci]

There wasn't the same "outrage" as there was when TPF had problems.

I think "panic" would be the better word.

[druez]

Perhaps he was/is close-minded, but he was open-minded enough to put it in the game.



There also might be a large audience out there if Jim were to put mpegs of naked cheerleaders in the game, but that doesn't mean that is something he necessarily wants, or needs to do. Hey, I know! Jim could add a topless sideline reporter and Joe Namath could keep repeating "I'd really like to touch your boobie." Just because there might be an audience for it, doesn't make it a necessity for Jim to put in HIS game.

In regard to the "great" championship manager, seems like they should add some more graphics since they have such a small sliver of the millions of soccer/futbol fans around the world. Oh, and your right, the number of copies sold wouldn't be near where they are now. It would be MUCH, MUCH higher. :p



Ummmm...you write game reviews. Jim owns his own business and has done so successfully for 6 years. I think he's more qualified to decide how to continue running his business. Sit down. Shut up.



So, why don't you send Jim a check?



It's visually appealing to me, so does that change the "fact" that the game is not visually appealing? It isn't visually appealing in YOUR OPINION, and it is your OPINION that the game should contain more graphics to make it more visually appealing. It is also your OPINION that if it had more graphics, it would sell more.



Bravo. Congratulations to them and to you. Perhaps if Jim spent his time working on adding some pretty pictures and graphics to the game and to the site they might have purchased Jim's game. Perhaps if Jim added those graphics, he might not have had as much time to program the multiplayer features and would have produced a very buggy, non-playable product that they promptly would have returned.



No, you get labeled as an asshole, dickhead, troublemaker or .400 fanboy because you are, not because you disagree. Derek at StormCloud hasn't been labeled any of those things, yet he disagrees. Many here have disagreed with Jim and have been very vocal about it (Buccaneer, Hell Atlantic are a couple that come to mind) and are very active and respected members of this forum. It is your presentation, not your argument, that gets you labeled.

My comments up to this point have largely been tounge in cheek, or intended to get a laugh, but this is as serious a sentence as I'll ever post. You come across as a condescending know-it all and it turns people off and leads to them attacking you. You have your OPINIONS about how things should be, but you present them as FACTS and that anyone who doesn't heed your advice is a stupid moron.




Okay, that last observation is SHEER BRILLIANCE!!! You mean THIS is a Front Office Football Forum? Geez, and all this time I thought I was on the Barbie Colletor's Forum. Thanks for the revelation. Guess you don't wander into the Dynasty Forum or the Hattrick forum too often. Lot of sports and politics there. Also, considering you've been around for only four months, and considering that sports issues and politics have been some of the major events lately (Hmmm...let's see...Super Bowl, election year) what would you expect? Perhaps a thread about re-financing your house? Oh, wait. We had one of those. Or perhaps a thread about computer help? Oh, wait. We've had some of those too. I know, a thread about censorship and indecency in todays media. Damn! I forgot about the Janet Jackson and Howard Stern threads. Ok, I got it now. I know we haven't discussed education or teachers unions on a football board. What? We did in one of the George W threads? Ok, I think I might have one. Relationships. SURELY a bunch of guys on a football board aren't going to talk about relationships. Gee, I guess I missed the "How long to call thread" or the thread today from MIJB. Guess I can also throw out career advice and support from the community for those who have lost jobs or loved ones.
[/end rant]



Aren't fans usually biased and devoted. Isn't that what make them fans. And don't TPF fans or OOTP fans or (heaven forbid) Champ Manager fans do the same?




Most of your posts here tend to show that you prefer TPF's style of product over FOF. Also, you continually defend those posts in heated exchanges. Thus, the impression that you are a .400 fanboy.



First logical, reasonable, well conveyed paragraph you've made in this thread. In my opnion, of course. I agree totally with your statement about competition. Of course it has nothing to do with Jim's expressed displeasure about not explicitly telling him your relationship with .400.



Again, it is your OPINION that the "level of quality and flash of the great SI game CM4" is a goal others strive to achieve. It is also your OPINION that CM4 is a great game. There are many that also hold that opinion. There are others that don't. But to ASSUME that a game is going to be better because it is more like CM or has more graphics like CM is in my opinion assinine.




To distill my posts into one less lengthy summary - I don't think anyone here criticizes you for your attitudes and your passion. I think the way you present your views tends to lead to people attacking you. In other words, you come across as someone bashing the product rather than offering an opinion about what you'd like to see in the game and why. Also, just because you view Championship Manager as a great game and think that other games should be more like it, does not mean that others share that opinion.

I think you have a lot to offer to this community and hope to see you posting here more frequently. While you may characterize yourself as someone who bluntly says what's on your mind, I hope you learn that sometimes tact can be a useful means of persuasion as well. I look forward to hearing your responses to my comments since I don't really expect you to just let them slide (and would be disappointed if you did).

When I have time tonight, I would like to respond to some of these things mentioned above. But, Buzzbe obviously did so I will be glad to respond to him. Most of you don't even bother to read the content you simply post one liners. Thats great and I'm sure you guys get a great laugh out of it. I'm glad I'm here for your ammusement. :)

[yabanci]

Please ignore this non-druez-approved one liner.

[druez]

Please ignore this non-druez-approved one liner.

I think you are my biggest fan. Thanks for the worship! :rolleyes:

[Ben E Lou]

I disagree. Lets use the problems with NFL statistics vs. FOF generated statistics and TPF generated statistics. When there was a problem with TPF statistics a vast majority of the fans here, tore into the game and blamed the flashy graphics and ripped the engine.I disagree. Lets use the problems with NFL statistics vs. FOF generated statistics and TPF generated statistics. When there was a problem with TPF statistics a vast majority of the fans here, tore into the game and blamed the flashy graphics and ripped the engine.I'm fairly certain you're wrong on that one. People around here tend to identify and report stats issues, and wait fairly patiently for them to be fixed. Here (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?t=19025&highlight=TPF+stats) is a thread discussing TPF release build stats, and no one ripped the engine nor tore into the game--and the stats got better from there.

Do a search on "TPF stats," read some of the threads, and I think you'll find that people have been very fair with regard to stats.

[corbes]

FWIW, I only want more BANG! I am satisfied with the level of Whiz.

Jim, please add more BANG! And if you have left over time, some DING! would be nice.

you have nice hair

funniest post of the day, by far.

[sabotai]

I wish people would stop telling Jim to make FOF into CM. THe main reason is that people seem to be putting a single face on CM (Marc) and it seems like they think one person can do it. They can't.

CM has a team of people working on it, and a ton of researchers. FOF has just Jim. And before anyone (else) suggest that Jim should just go out and get a team, realize that getting a team of people and making a sim does not equate into CM-style success. It would be a HUGE risk for Jim to hire several people and put his company (and his family's well being) on the line for a chance at having a big hit.

Even if Jim did come out with what amounted to CM for american football with this team of people, I would bet that it would only get the fraction of sales that CM sees in a release. CM has been around a long time (since 1992 if memory serves). I wonder how long it took them to start seeing large sales figures. (Ahem...Marc? :) )

So, Jim can play it safe by doing what he does best, or he can hire a team and risk his life on the flip of a card. Something tells me he's not going to play roulette with his career at this point.

And no, I don't think flashy graphics = bad engine. I also don't think flashy graphics = good interface. And at this point, I'd rather have multiplayer and "hot-linked" players than a revamped interface.

[Anthony]

i for one rather jim spend all free time working on his game than the website. i think the fact that his website is so lowkey and not too labor intensive allows him to churn out patch after patch. i don't think we could have got the 5.0d patch so soon after the c patch if jim was worrying about what animations he could put on on the front page or what font the links should be.

i will say this however - when i first heard of FOF several years back and finally found the solecismic website, i was skeptical due to the amateurish look of it. didn't seem too professional. the only thing that made me look past it was the great reviews it got in Computer Gaming Monthly or some other pc game mag i read. were it not for those reviews i most likely would have stayed away. take that for what it's worth.

but consider this as well - we all know that the FOF games won't make you go out and buy the latest and greatest graphic card. it'd be silly for the game's graphical quality to be one way and for jim to have an mtv.com type site. he's correct that it would be misleading for the website to be this fireworks display and for someone to wrongfully assume that the game is somewhat along similar lines. the website, like the game, is what you see is what you get.

[Draft Dodger]

wait, someone remind me again why Jim doesn't like to officially affiliate himself with this board? :)

I do think Jim's site could use a little sprucing up a bit (especially considering I'm at 800x600 at work, and can't really see the whole thing). I don't want splashy, but it could probably use a bit more...elegance to it. That's not to say it's a terrible site by any means - but I think in the hands of a good web designer, it could be a lot better.

[Dutch]

Most of you don't even bother to read the content you simply post one liners.

I've read the whole thread, the one liners were better, and you owe me 4 hours and 16 minutes of my life back. You have brought up absolutely nothing that hasn't been brought up before, you just cried a whole lot harder.

[druez]

I've read the whole thread, the one liners were better, and you owe me 4 hours and 16 minutes of my life back. You have brought up absolutely nothing that hasn't been brought up before, you just cried a whole lot harder.

Send me your address so I can buy you a book on speed reading :). You sure read pretty slow........ :D

[The_herd]

Why not suggest exactly where whiz-bang would improve the product rather than condemning everything?



Bring back instant replay!:D

[Dutch]

Send me your address so I can buy you a book on speed reading :). You sure read pretty slow........ :D

I'll bet it's got a nice cover and lot's of pictures if you recommend it. ;)

[Easy Mac]

I'll bet it's got a nice cover and lot's of pictures if you recommend it. ;)
BURN!!!!!!!!!!

[illinifan999]

I have no friends to giggle at their site. :(

I like the site the way it is. KISS method people, keep it simple stupid. When I first got into seeing Jim's website the very first time I did, I liked it probably the most. All the information on TCY was right there. I didn't have to click 50 different buttons, and search to find info on a game. One click and BAM! there's all the info I need. Another click and DING! screenshots. I like TCY and FOF like they are. When I want graphics, I have Madden. When I want substance, I have FOF/TCY. Either way it works out perfectly. Right now I'd say Jim has it perfect. He's got a solid sim engine, but no fluff. Haven't played TPF, but from what I've read the sim engine isn't that great, but it has fluff. I'd take sim engine over fluff anyday.

[Easy Mac]

I think Jim should make his webpage like this http://www.angelfire.com/super/badwebs/

[Solecismic]

Yes, Jim it is your company and your decisions. Years ago you took a huge risk, but after 6 successful games. I find it a bit hard to swallow that the risk is still as great. You have an established fan base, word of mouth is good and a site dedicated to your game. Your costs for developing this product are very low and the distribution model of eliscense lends to very high profit margins. Your only down year that I can tell was FOF4, but that was a problem with your distribution model and forcing us to mail order the game. You saw that and corrected it "good job"

If you sell 5000 copies of your game at 34.95 that gives you. $174,750.00 Now lets say Viatech charges 10 bucks a game, which I believe is high. I think they charge around 5 bucks a game, but I'm not sure. That still gives you. $124,750.00 Anyway you look at that, that?s some damn good coin. Its pretty hard for me to believe that you hiring someone to do some graphics for you, would brake your company or make your risks that much greater.


The risk is always the same. I'm not making nearly as much as you think I'm making. $125k per year would give me quite a cushion by now.

Given the current marketplace, I don't think it's possible for a non-mass-market game to sell 100,000 copies for the PC.

And the fan base here just isn't going to stick with the game if I go all-out with stuff that's not important to them. If I spend the next development cycle all on whiz-bang, or all on connectivity (head to head coaching mode would be months of work on its own), then my core audience is left with a new version that has nothing for them. Good-bye word of mouth. And that's a huge risk.

So it's not, to me, worth the risk of hiring a full-time graphics person. I agree with you on the play-by-play - that's on the short list right now along with some other enhancements to the coaching mode. I do not agree with you on sound. Good sound is expensive, and I believe half the people, if not more, would turn it off within minutes anyway.

My edge in gaming lies with sticking with the niche I know. I eat, sleep and breathe statistics and analysis. I've loved this stuff since I was a little kid, and as far as I'm concerned pre-Windows Diamond Mind Baseball is still the ultimate computer game.

I'm quite interested in growing the fan base, but if it means spending too much development time and incurring financial risk on items that I don't believe add anything more than whiz-bang, I think it's going to wind up a poor move in the long-term.

[Easy Mac]

I must be the only person whose whiz always follows his bang.

[sovereignstar]

I've loved this stuff since I was a little kid, and as far as I'm concerned pre-Windows Diamond Mind Baseball is still the ultimate computer game.
Hellz yeah! DMB 7.0 was king!!

[Easy Mac]

Sorry Jim, CM1 in dos is the shit.

[Flasch186]

Just a thought Jim,

What if there were someone in the FOFC that might have some expertise in the area and donate some time, for some of those "whiz bangs". I dont know if there is any, me not certainly but a thought. Most of your buyers in the FOFC are somewhat "more" than just buyers I think...somewhat of a cult, no?

[Buccaneer]

I agree with you on the play-by-play - that's on the short list right now along with some other enhancements to the coaching mode.
:(

[Buzzbee]

Just a thought Jim,

What if there were someone in the FOFC that might have some expertise in the area and donate some time, for some of those "whiz bangs". I dont know if there is any, me not certainly but a thought. Most of your buyers in the FOFC are somewhat "more" than just buyers I think...somewhat of a cult, no?

Flasch - In theory that's a good idea. Realistically, it probably isn't as great an alternative as it sounds.

Take Fido's FOF Reporter for example. Fido did a great job with it. Jim even said himself that it was a better effort than he could have made. However, with the latest patch it is, from my understanding, inoperable. Fido volunteered to create his Reporter, but will he volunteer to upgrade it for the D patch? Only Fido knows. Even if Jim was working with Fido on the creation, since Jim isn't paying him, there is no guarantee that Fido will upgrade. That leaves Jim with a tough decision: either fix it himself, which means taking the time to learn Fido's code and how it operates, and then make necessary code changes (and even then there's no guarantee that it can be fixed), or scrap that portion and leave customers hanging. No good alternative for Jim.

Also, since Jim is the only one doing the coding, he is intimately familiar with the code. There is a possiblity that if he hired another developer that eventually that developer might move on to greener pastures. It would then potentially take Jim a long time to familiarize himself with that code in case there was a bug. This isn't a business killing situation, but could have an impact on his business. Obviously there are NUMEROUS companies that thrive with huge numbers of developers. It's just one aspect that Jim may have to consider.

[Dutch]

Things that make you sit back and think about how much more complex this issue is, nice job Buzzbee.

[sabotai]

Things that make you go hmmmmmmm

[Fonzie]

I must be the only person whose whiz always follows his bang.

I know that my whiz usually follows your bang.

Er...

[Franklinnoble]

I've read the whole thread, the one liners were better, and you owe me 4 hours and 16 minutes of my life back. You have brought up absolutely nothing that hasn't been brought up before, you just cried a whole lot harder.

Nice. :D

[druez]

The risk is always the same. I'm not making nearly as much as you think I'm making. $125k per year would give me quite a cushion by now.

Given the current marketplace, I don't think it's possible for a non-mass-market game to sell 100,000 copies for the PC.

And the fan base here just isn't going to stick with the game if I go all-out with stuff that's not important to them. If I spend the next development cycle all on whiz-bang, or all on connectivity (head to head coaching mode would be months of work on its own), then my core audience is left with a new version that has nothing for them. Good-bye word of mouth. And that's a huge risk.

So it's not, to me, worth the risk of hiring a full-time graphics person. I agree with you on the play-by-play - that's on the short list right now along with some other enhancements to the coaching mode. I do not agree with you on sound. Good sound is expensive, and I believe half the people, if not more, would turn it off within minutes anyway.

My edge in gaming lies with sticking with the niche I know. I eat, sleep and breathe statistics and analysis. I've loved this stuff since I was a little kid, and as far as I'm concerned pre-Windows Diamond Mind Baseball is still the ultimate computer game.

I'm quite interested in growing the fan base, but if it means spending too much development time and incurring financial risk on items that I don't believe add anything more than whiz-bang, I think it's going to wind up a poor move in the long-term.


Fair enough. I wish you future success in your products.

[Peregrine]

I've loved this stuff since I was a little kid, and as far as I'm concerned pre-Windows Diamond Mind Baseball is still the ultimate computer game.


Those were the days, I remember playing the old DOS DMB (well it was still Pursue the Pennant when I was playing it) for hours on end.

[GoldenEagle]

What is a text sim? Is that one of those games you just sit in front of the computer all day and don't play?

[fantastic flying froggies]

One thing about the 'new' website though, that java applet for the college football ratings is just about unredeable for me...

[fantastic flying froggies]

dola - from that same page, looks like Jim is very closely following all that NCAA movement / realignement.

Hints of TCY2 maybe ?

(one can always hope and dream...)

[corbes]

What is a text sim? Is that one of those games you just sit in front of the computer all day and don't play?

Right. It's the "not-playing" that's important. Just like how the silence between the DING!s is what makes the DING!s important.

[cthomer5000]

dola - from that same page, looks like Jim is very closely following all that NCAA movement / realignement.

Hints of TCY2 maybe ?

(one can always hope and dream...)


I would say it's a pretty good guess that TCY 2 is inevitable... it's just a matter of whether it's his next game or not. I'll buy his next game sight unseen, so I have no strong preference as to what it is.

[cuervo72]

Just a thought for what the Solecismic banner might look like (just for my own personal fancy, Jim is free to ignore the meddling).

http://www.mjbenson.net/Solecismic-Banner.gif

[Ben E Lou]

Just a thought for what the Solecismic banner might look like (just for my own personal fancy, Jim is free to ignore the meddling).

http://www.mjbenson.net/Solecismic-Banner.gif
Looks nice and all, but what is the point of a having a FB or TE only rated 6/20 in run blocking??? ;)

[cthomer5000]

Is there no proper open quote available for use with that font? It looks a little funky as-is. Still though, I would also prefer a banner like that.

Cuervo does some great stuff.

[cuervo72]

Everyone pointing out the FB :) I picked him because I didn't want to give away anything scouting wise (he's a player in an online league), but without the name there I probably could have picked anyone.

[cuervo72]

Is there no proper open quote available for use with that font? It looks a little funky as-is. Still though, I would also prefer a banner like that.

Cuervo does some great stuff.

Actually I fixed this, but I'm not hosting the image so the update hasn't been loaded quite yet.

[Scarecrow]

Actually I fixed this, but I'm not hosting the image so the update hasn't been loaded quite yet.
Updated

[cuervo72]

Thanks Crow :)

[spleen1015]

I think that is pretty nice.

[Buzzbee]

In my opinion, TCY2 will not be Jim's next game. FOF2k4 has done pretty well it seems, based on Jim's comments above. As a result, there is less financial pressure for him, which will probably give him a feeling that he can pursue avenues other than Football. He has stated that his original goal was to produce sims for all 4 major sports. He has also stated that he was working on something other than football between FOF4 and FOF2k4. If I had to guess, I would imagine he would return to the development he had already started last year.

The particular sport that Jim has chosen/chooses MAY have some impact on when he tries to release it. If it were baseball, that would give him a full year (if he wanted to release it around spring training next year) to develop, test, find a publisher if he is so inclined, and release the game. From there he would have three or four months to work on TCY2 to have it ready next fall for college football season.

Or, he could choose to work on TCY2 now in order to have it ready for next years college football season and then work on his other project after that.

That's the way I see it.

[Subby]

Wow. I read this whole thread! Two quick comments:

1) Druez' assertion that this community was clamoring for multi-player for a long time is patently false. There was a vocal segment (of which I was a part) but the community as a whole rarely even talked about it.

2) I would be interested to hear what Druez does for a living. He has a lot of advice for a developer that has the stones to support a wife, baby and mortage by selling something HE created from the ground up. It's one thing to want better graphical representation in the game. I can even understand the desire for a cleaner web site. But when you start giving the guy unsolicited sales advice...I mean, come on.

[Ben E Lou]

In my opinion, TCY2 will not be Jim's next game. FOF2k4 has done pretty well it seems, based on Jim's comments above. As a result, there is less financial pressure for him, which will probably give him a feeling that he can pursue avenues other than Football. He has stated that his original goal was to produce sims for all 4 major sports. He has also stated that he was working on something other than football between FOF4 and FOF2k4. If I had to guess, I would imagine he would return to the development he had already started last year.

The particular sport that Jim has chosen/chooses MAY have some impact on when he tries to release it. If it were baseball, that would give him a full year (if he wanted to release it around spring training next year) to develop, test, find a publisher if he is so inclined, and release the game. From there he would have three or four months to work on TCY2 to have it ready next fall for college football season.

Or, he could choose to work on TCY2 now in order to have it ready for next years college football season and then work on his other project after that.

That's the way I see it.

LET THE SPECULATION BEGIN!!!

[SirFozzie]

Our dreams of Front Office Curling 2k4 (or 2K5, I can wait...) LIVE!

[Fritz]

ding

[RedKingGold]

Is this thread approaching an FOFC Hall of Fame induction???

Damn,....a one liner. I'll contribute more when I think of something intelligent to say

[duckman]

*stabbing*

Die thread! Die!!!!!

:D

[druez]

Wow. I read this whole thread! Two quick comments:

1) Druez' assertion that this community was clamoring for multi-player for a long time is patently false. There was a vocal segment (of which I was a part) but the community as a whole rarely even talked about it.

2) I would be interested to hear what Druez does for a living. He has a lot of advice for a developer that has the stones to support a wife, baby and mortage by selling something HE created from the ground up. It's one thing to want better graphical representation in the game. I can even understand the desire for a cleaner web site. But when you start giving the guy unsolicited sales advice...I mean, come on.

I'm an IT Manager. One of my duties is running a software development group, that designs real time data servers for the "oil patch". We design software that allows all the rich dudes to sit in the office here in Houston, while all the roughnecks are out at the rig. They can watch their well be drilled, we collect that data and stream it real time to our servers. We use FREE BSD, PHP and Apache. The database is Oracle and at the rig site we use MYSQL.

We also develop reporting programs that use MY SQL, where they fill out their daily reports and send them in over the internet. I also run a multiple domain network. I've written marketing plans for our software package and also help shape our web site design.

For fun, I write for free on my friends website and do alot of beta testing for various game companies. "Electronic Arts, Codemasters, Sony / Veriant and Timegate Studios."

[Subby]

Druez - I wasn't insinuating that you weren't qualified to give an opinion. You have at least one nipple, so that qualifies you.

I just thought it was kind of weird that you were giving him unsolicited sales and marketing advice when you have never done anything remotely close to what Jim has with his company...

FWIW, I am in a similar position as you and I can tell you right now it is much easier to sit here in the comforts of my office chugging Starbuck's and surfing the Internet and telling Jim that FOF could use more cowbell than it would be for me to quit my job right now and actually create a viable, sustainable product line.

[hukarez]

and telling Jim that FOF could use more cowbell
I am immediately reminded of the SNL sketch with Christopher Walken, surrounding the Blue Oyster Cult's "Don't Fear the Reaper" song.

"...I gotta have more cowbell!"

[corbes]

I am immediately reminded of the SNL sketch with Christopher Walken, surrounding the Blue Oyster Cult's "Don't Fear the Reaper" song.

"...I gotta have more cowbell!"

Hey guys, if Bruce Dickinson says he wants more cowbell, I think we oughta give him more cowbell!

[rkmsuf]

This place has always been clamoring for more cowbell and it's high time we get it!!!

[StormcloudCreations]

Druez - I wasn't insinuating that you weren't qualified to give an opinion. You have at least one nipple, so that qualifies you.

I just thought it was kind of weird that you were giving him unsolicited sales and marketing advice when you have never done anything remotely close to what Jim has with his company...

FWIW, I am in a similar position as you and I can tell you right now it is much easier to sit here in the comforts of my office chugging Starbuck's and surfing the Internet and telling Jim that FOF could use more cowbell than it would be for me to quit my job right now and actually create a viable, sustainable product line.

Agreed! As a guy who attempted to make a "sports" career text sim myself (Coliseum), I now know what back-breaking work it actually is to get it right and keep it interesting, and get it bug-free the first time out of the gate. It's a monumental task, especially for a single developer/programmer (me, in the above case). So none of my words or advice above in the thread were meant to imply I know more than Jim or anyone else does. :)

[Dutch]

Yo quiera, cowbell.

[Buccaneer]

I would not understand at all why the next release would not be TCY2. This would be the only game I would consider buying (except for a NFL GM sim ;) ), as long as he doesn't switch the much-better TCY interface over to the FOF interface.

[jeff061]

heh, the sole reason i can't get into TCY is because of the interface.

[corbes]

Hey, I may be Bruce Dickinson, but I put my pants on just like you guys -- one leg at a time. Except, after I have my pants on, I make gold records.

[Subby]

heh, the sole reason i can't get into TCY is because of the interface.As you have probably noticed, Bucc is a little different than the rest of us ;)

[Honolulu Blue]

[/left]

LET THE SPECULATION BEGIN!!!

You got it! (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?t=22216)

[cthomer5000]

I wet my pants just like you guys -- one leg at a time.

Did we really need to know that?

[corbes]

Did we really need to know that?
Hey, that's not in the skit!

[sabotai]

Guess what! I got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell!