OT: The apostrophe (elitist grammar rant)

[QuikSand]

The misunderstood, much-maligned apostrophe.

What is it about the apostrophe that is so baffling? Why do so many among us want to use an apostrophe when we make a somewhat complex word into a plural? Does that make any sense? Why would we write the word (for example) as dynasty's? Why would that even seem like an option? It's not like there are lots and lots of cases where we use the apostrophe to pluralize... and this word is some kind of irregular exception. The apostrophe really has nothing to do with pluralizing, it shouldn't even come to mind.

Okay... we've been through its and it's already. The fact that some possessive words like Jim's include the apostrophe makes this one somewhat understandable, at least -- I can at least see why someone might equate "belonging to Jim = Jim's" and "belonging to it = it's" even though this parallel is false. This one is unfortunate (and grievously widespread), but at least you can see the thinking there, I guess.

But what is the deal with just dropping apostrophes into words that end with an s? Why would you even be tempted to spell that word apostrophe's?

[NoMyths]

Hear hear!*

*Master of Fine Arts (Creative Writing), Purdue, 2003

[Passacaglia]

Another story involving me on a bus....

I saw a bench that had an advertisement for the re-election of an Alderman, I think his name is Walter Tunney, Jr.? Anyway, it said something to the effect of "Walter Tunney, Jr. say's..."

I was appalled.

[VPI97]

fucking elitist's

[Dutch]

I just put those little buggers everywhere so nobody thinks I'm afraid to use them.

[Marmel]

My crappy Word Processor will take a word like NCAAs and format to look like this:

Ncaas, when I want it to look like NCAAs

So I use the apostrophe incorrectly on purpose if that makes sense. :)


Example:

I cannot believe UTEP qualified for the NCAAs (NCAAs short for NCAA Tournament, pronounced N-C-Double-As)

[QuikSand]

fucking elitist's

BRILLIANT!

(I was just going to post this exact thing... you beat me to the punch, I got sidetracked)

[Marmel]

Shouldn't you be tabulating the IWS result's instead of this crap anyway's? :)

[SackAttack]

Word'll do that, but if I'm not mistaken, if you hit the backspace key once after it auto-formats, it should restore the old formatting.

[Maple Leafs]

Reminds me of one day at college. I studied journalism, and one of the rules we all learned on day one was that we always had to get names right. Typos were bad, but in a name they were inexcusable. Spell a name wrong, automatic failure. It was that simple.

In a sportswriting class, the teacher called one of my friends up to the front of the room and asked if he understood the importance of getting names right. He said he did. She asked if he was sure his last assignment was free of errors. He said it was. She then put his article up on the big screen for all to see and pointed to the lead, and asked "So you're telling us that the Ottawa 67's (local junior-A hockey team) really spell their name with an unnecessary apostrophe before the s?"

Silence. Everyone squirms. Poor guy.

He looks her in the eye and says "Yes, actually, they do."

And it turns out it was true. That is their official name (proof (http://www.ottawa67s.com/)). He had to go look it up for her before she believed him but he was right.

He's now a reporter for a national sports network.

[hukarez]

Say Quiksand, are you an English major by chance?

[QuikSand]

The regrettable use of an apostrophe when pluarlizing numbers and even letters seems to be with us for good. I think that plays some minor role in fueling the aforementioned problem, but it can't be the whole explanation, can it?

[QuikSand]

Say Quiksand, are you an English major by chance?

No, I just get ticked off by this sort of things.

And I'll tell you another thing. It will be a cold day in hell when I hire someone who trips up on this kind of shit in, say, a cover letter for a job application. If you can't be trusted to handle details like "would have" instead of "would of" -- how can I possibly trust you to make decisions for my company?

This is not a purely academic/trivial issue.

[NoMyths]

The worst part is that the apostrophe for names (e.g. Jim's) is really just a holdover from old structures that no longer really apply...so the fact that folks screw it up is kind of understandable. On names. Less so for the other screwups (e.g. dynasty's).

[hukarez]

Your stance on the nuances of the English language are commendable.

It's time for me to throw out the m-w.com bookmark in my favorites list!

[WussGawd]

Quiksan'd I' agre'e wit'h yo'u. Peopl'e jus't dont us'e apostrophe's righ't. O'f cours'e th'e thin'g tha't bothers' m'e i's folk's wh'o ar'e no't toleran't o'f othe'r people's gramma'r.

Thos'e peopl'e driv'e m'e nut's.

[digamma]

If we can't even get the apostrophe straight on things like dynasty's, I'm guessing it is way too much trouble to ask people to learn the correct rule for showing the possessive of singular names or proper nouns that end in s (i.e., Jones). Or have we just accepted the incorrect use (Tom Jones' song) as a replacement for the correct one (Tom Jones's song)?

[hukarez]

I was never much of an expert when it came to grammar.


One thing is for certain, though. TyPiNg LiKe ThIs HuRtz mY EyEz.

[NoMyths]

If we can't even get the apostrophe straight on things like dynasty's, I'm guessing it is way too much trouble to ask people to learn the correct rule for showing the possessive of singular names or proper nouns that end in s (i.e., Jones). Or have we just accepted the incorrect use (Tom Jones' song) as a replacement for the correct one (Tom Jones's song)?Actually, Jones' IS the correct usage. As is Jones's. Evidently both are correct.

[NoMyths]

dola...
Here is a good link for more info: Apostrophes! (http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/grammar/g_apost.html)

[Buzzbee]

No, I just get ticked off by this sort of things.

And I'll tell you another thing. It will be a cold day in hell when I hire someone who trips up on this kind of shit in, say, a cover letter for a job application. If you can't be trusted to handle details like "would have" instead of "would of" -- how can I possibly trust you to make decisions for my company?

This is not a purely academic/trivial issue.

Could of, would of, should of. Quiksand would of hired me if Id of only used the apostrophe's in the right place. :(

[yabanci]

cudda, wudda, shudda

[QuikSand]

I hadn't seen the deliniation that the Purdue site uses for saying that it's appropriate to use an apostrophe for pluralizing lower case letters... but I like that rule. It's still difficult to sugest that they ought to be caled the Oakland As, but we can marshal through this one.

[QuikSand]

Could of, would of, should of. Quiksand would of hired me if Id of only used the apostrophe's in the right place.

And capitalized the S, dummy.

[Buzzbee]

And capitalized the S, dummy.

Doh!


Fucking elitist!

[Young Drachma]

hehe..the variety of threads on this board never ceases to amaze me. I mean that in a good way..

[NoMyths]

Quik: Fwiw, the Purdue Site (Online Writing Lab, or OWL) is considered one of the premier online sites in the world for grammar stuff--I give out the address to students all the time, and know of several international writing labs that have established themselves in the model of the site. Whenever I've got a grammar question, it's where I turn. :)

[digamma]

Actually, Jones' IS the correct usage. As is Jones's. Evidently both are correct.
From the Purdue site:

• add 's to the singular form of the word (even if it ends in -s):
the owner's car James's hat



Am I missing the alternative rule? (I'm not trying to be a pain in the arse, here.)

[Easy Mac]

Why is there no apostrophe in "twas?" Is it not a combination of "it was?" I say revolution.

[Noop]

I don't have the best grammar so I suggest you sue for more funding in America's public school systems.

[k0ruptr]

this thread suck's

[QuikSand]

Why is there no apostrophe in "twas?"

To the extent anyone (outside of December 24) actually uses this word any longer, it is indeed properly spelled with a leading apostrophe: 'twas. Just like any other contraction, the apostrophe is an indicator of the letter or letters that have been eliminated.

[Fritz]

Am I the the only one here over the years who has been shamed into thinking more about grammar (not that I let them interfere with my preferred - incorrect - style) by Quiks occasional posts?

[Easy Mac]

yes

[NoMyths]

From the Purdue site:

• add 's to the singular form of the word (even if it ends in -s):
the owner's car James's hat



Am I missing the alternative rule? (I'm not trying to be a pain in the arse, here.)
Doh! Nah, just got confused on the singular vs. plural...Keeping up with the Jones' is correct, and Tom Jones's song is correct, but keeping up with the Jones's is incorrect, as is Tom Jones' song.

[corbes]

Quik: Fwiw, the Purdue Site (Online Writing Lab, or OWL) is considered one of the premier online sites in the world for grammar stuff--I give out the address to students all the time, and know of several international writing labs that have established themselves in the model of the site. Whenever I've got a grammar question, it's where I turn. :)

NoMyths, I teach writing to high school students. I found OWL a couple years ago -- and point my students there now and then! It's a nice resource.

[ice4277]

To the extent anyone (outside of December 24) actually uses this word any longer, it is indeed properly spelled with a leading apostrophe: 'twas. Just like any other contraction, the apostrophe is an indicator of the letter or letters that have been eliminated.
I try to use 'twas and verily at least 15 times a day. Just to change thing's up a little.

[SnowMan]

Apostrophes? Hell, I'm still trying to teach people about they're/there/their and to/too/two. Not to mention you're/your. Not enough hours in the day, sometimes.

[Celeval]

And I'll tell you another thing. It will be a cold day in hell when I hire someone who trips up on this kind of shit in, say, a cover letter for a job application. If you can't be trusted to handle details like "would have" instead of "would of" -- how can I possibly trust you to make decisions for my company?
I completely agree, and have flunked people in interviews because their resume showed a complete lack of understanding of the English language.

Not that I'm the greatest writer in the world, but obvious problems..

Kevin

[VPI97]

I don't have the best grammar so I suggest you sue for more funding in America's public school systems.LOL...This needs more love.

[Craptacular]

It's still difficult to sugest that they ought to be caled the Oakland As, but we can marshal through this one.

He's so mad, he forgot how to spell.

[dawgfan]

As long as we're in grammar venting mode, I've been seeing a lot of this one lately: "rediculous"

[Scholes]

I was once in a pick-the-winner NFL league where the guy who ran it and posted the matchups put apostrophes in every team's nickname.

Example: Viking's at Dolphin's

I quit the league after two weeks.

[cthomer5000]

Am I the the only one here over the years who has been shamed into thinking more about grammar (not that I let them interfere with my preferred - incorrect - style) by Quiks occasional posts?

You apparently haven't taken this apostrophe lesson to heart yet.

[cthomer5000]

As long as we're in grammar venting mode, I've been seeing a lot of this one lately: "rediculous"

This is becoming dangerously widespread.

[Airhog]

Grammar Nazi's suck...

[cuervo72]

Don't show this thread to that Goneril...I mean Galaril fellow.

[damnMikeBrown]

Hell with this. Can't someone do it for me?

[hukarez]

As long as we're in grammar venting mode, I've been seeing a lot of this one lately: "rediculous"
Let's not forget Wierd and Recieved!

[cuervo72]

As long as we're in grammar venting mode, I've been seeing a lot of this one lately: "rediculous"

Did you just say "redicurous"?

[Glengoyne]

I am actually sorry I missed the early discussion of this thread. Darned business trip to Bismarck. BTW, did anyone else realize there was a "c" in Bismarck? I completely misspelled it on a document I unfortunately gave to people who actually live there. In any case I have had several people correct me for using a couple of the usages listed on the Purdue site. Most often the apostrophe ending a plural ending in s. It seems that common usage allows for an 's in that case. At least I see it a lot, and I have had people try to convince me I am wrong to end those words with an apostrophe. I had several very good english teachers in grammar school apparently, because most of that stuff stuck with me. I remember being surprised in a highschool "college prep" english class that the only people who could diagram a sentence were the ones that had attended my tiny little K through 8th school.

[MIJB#19]

Did you know that the Dutch language does use 's for plural, especially if words are lend from foreign languages, making words like taxi's and baby's correct spelling?

[QuikSand]

In any case I have had several people correct me for using a couple of the usages listed on the Purdue site. Most often the apostrophe ending a plural ending in s. It seems that common usage allows for an 's in that case. At least I see it a lot, and I have had people try to convince me I am wrong to end those words with an apostrophe.

I'm not sure that I'm following this correctly... are you saying that you are spelling properly, and people tell you that you are wrong?

Do you perhaps mean "possessive" above when you say "plural" instead?

[QuikSand]

Did you know that the Dutch language does use 's for plural, especially if words are lend from foreign languages, making words like taxi's and baby's correct spelling?

No.

This new fact probably doubles my knowledge of Dutch spelling.

[Glengoyne]

Do you perhaps mean "possessive" above when you say "plural" instead?
Yes that is it. The OWL page said roughly that you end a plural noun that ends in s with an apostrophe to convey possession.

[QuikSand]

So, you're writing "the dogs' dishes" and people say you ought to be spelling it "dogs's" instead? Or do they suggest that you just spell it "dog's" indepent of whather it is singular or plural?

[Glengoyne]

So, you're writing "the dogs' dishes" and people say you ought to be spelling it "dogs's" instead?
Yes I would spell it dogs', but I often see, even in published works people using dog's instead. I am not actually sure if dog's is or has become an acceptable usage. One of my friends was an english major in college, and about a year ago he told me the usage of dogs' was incorrect. He had actually never heard of the rule allowing for ending a word with an apostrophe.

[QuikSand]

Your English major friend is a dope. Trust QuikSand.

[QuikSand]

And as recelty as this very day, we have seen the apostrophe used in an even more egregious manner, right here at FOFC. Droped right into a person's name. Not a possessive, not a plural... just a name that happens to end with an "s." What would make you want to spell a name like (say, for instance) Williams as William's? What is it about these elusive apostrophes? What is so hard about this?

[WussGawd]

And as recelty as this very day, we have seen the apostrophe used in an even more egregious manner, right here at FOFC. Droped right into a person's name. Not a possessive, not a plural... just a name that happens to end with an "s." What would make you want to spell a name like (say, for instance) Williams as William's? What is it about these elusive apostrophes? What is so hard about this?

Droped?

I always love grammar rants where the guy ranting can't spell. It's *dropped*

:rolleyes:

[QuikSand]

Thanks for the tip. I had no idea.

[digamma]

Did you play the Musburger drinking game tonight, Quik? You seem very chatty.

[Glengoyne]

Your English major friend is a dope. Trust QuikSand.
Well I should have pointed out that he didn't actually graduate. He is actually working for me now as an application developer.

[NoMyths]

Well I should have pointed out that he didn't actually graduate. He is actually working for me now as an application developer.Heh...um, yeah, in that case I think I'd go ahead and trust the Purdue University site over that buddy of yours. :)

[JeeberD]

At my fun little job at Olive Garden, one of the worst sins a server can make is not taking hot food directly to a table. As soon as hot food has been placed on a tray, it must go straight to the table. There's no stopping along the way for drinks, to get more breadsticks, nothing.

Well apparently we've recently had some guests complain that the breadsticks and/or soup they're getting isn't as hot as they would like it to be. To correct this problem, one of our managers put up the following sign in both of the side stations (aka the drink stations):

Please remember, HOT FOOD GO!
This includes breadstick's and soup.
There is to be no stopping in the side stations.

Thanks,
Elsie

When I saw that I just rolled my eyes and crossed out the apostrophe. Of course, it is kind of fun to correct managment's spelling... :)

[QuikSand]

The Saints just signed Drew Bree's to be the offensive coordinator.

Posted without comment.

I thought there was another thread to dump stuff like this, but I unearthed this one, and it's a true beauty.

[DaddyTorgo]

Man this is a gem of a thread.

[Honolulu_Blue]

https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1478905_823513241011464_1291718898_n.jpg

[Buccaneer]

https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1478905_823513241011464_1291718898_n.jpg

What else do you expect from the land where Velveeta is considered gourmet cheese?

[Buccaneer]

Sorry, forgot the :)

[ColtCrazy]

Every time I teach apostrophes in class my kids go nuts and start putting them into every plural nouns they see. After subject/verb identification, it's easily my most reviewed topic throughout the year.

[Landshark44]

the commissioner of my fantasy football league thinks "until" is two words....


in till


"IT'S ALMOST TIME TO START LOOKING AT YOUR BILL.ALL MONEY DUE BEFORE ( FEB 8 ) NO MONEY WILL GO OUT IN TILL ALL MONEY HAS BEEN PAID..IF YOUR MAILING YOUR BILL MONEY HERE IS MY......."


"NO MONEY WILL BE GIVING OUT IN TILL ALL MONEY IS PAID...THANKS FOR GREAT YEAR. DOC"


copy and pasted from our website, cracks me up


he uses that combination quite often, and no one in the league has brought it up.. :)...

[korme]

His odd misuse of spacing and all capitalizations would drive me crazy. To the point where I couldn't stand it.

[Marc Vaughan]

the commissioner of my fantasy football league thinks "until" is two words....

Till is a valid word and is one I use myself. I'd guess he has Scottish ancestry as I believe its in 'more' common usage there than elsewhere ...

Till - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/till)

Examples of TILL

We won't finish till next week.
The event doesn't start till tomorrow.
Origin of TILL

Middle English, from Old English til; akin to Old Norse til to, till, Old English til good
First Known Use: before 12th century

[DaddyTorgo]

Till is a valid word and is one I use myself. I'd guess he has Scottish ancestry as I believe its in 'more' common usage there than elsewhere ...

Till - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/till)

til yes, but not in til

[Passacaglia]

I don't know if the show does it, but I remember having a Family Feud video game that put an apostrophe in each family's name. Drove me batty.

Also, I think "HOT FOOD GO!" makes a good catchphrase.

[sterlingice]

My wife is an editor and I love whenever I see a sign like this. I cringe a little to myself but then I hear her voice in my head.

There's this yell of "breadstick's WHAT?!?" as she's exasperated, waiting for the noun that the possessive is referring to.

SI

[dawgfan]

Till is a valid word and is one I use myself. I'd guess he has Scottish ancestry as I believe its in 'more' common usage there than elsewhere ...

Till - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/till)
I would hazard a guess that it's more that he's writing phonetically. He hears words but hasn't made clear connections with their written versions. This can be seen most often with contractions, where folks write "would of" instead of "would've".