FOF Question: Finesse running

[AgPete]

In personnel, I can select the percentage of finesse running plays that I want to employ but I wonder how others judge their offensive line for this because I don't think offensive linemen have enough attributes to accurately determine what type of blocker they are. Are we just supposed to assume if we don't have many olinemen with high "blocking strength," that they are smaller faster guys? If you have a lot of blockers with low run block but high pass block, do you usually raise your finesse running? I wish all players were given additional attributes such as acceleration and speed.

[Dutch]

Hopefully some of our rocket scientists around here (QS and Skydog et al) have some good info to pass on.

To (over)simplify it, I've used the Barry Sanders philosophy. If my running back has good speed to the outside, elusiveness, hole recognition, I want more finese runs. The risk is greater for more losses behind the line, but I think it also gives your RB a chance to break out bigger runs.

I don't even take my O-line into consideration.

Speaking of O-lines, I would like to see a new blocking statistic to show how well a blocker handles one on one situations. If he had 400 run blocks over the course of a year, did he have 10 pancakes, 200 successful blocks, 100 missed blocks, 10 holding penalties...etc. Doesn't help answer your question about finese running, but it helps define the lineman.

I hope to see a formula built in to the next game engine that rates player performances each week. Perhaps on a bell-curve with all players who qualified for enough snaps to be entered. Perhaps you have it on a 10.00 basis like CM. If my LT scores a 9.88, I know he had one of the better games out of all tackles that week. Perhaps at the end of the season, if his rating is 9.67, I know the AI considered his season performance awesome.

[BigJohn&TheLions]

I'd just like to see how many penalties OL have... Holding, false starts...

[AgPete]

I'd just like to see how many penalties OL have... Holding, false starts...

Penalties would be a fantastic stat to throw in. To go with that, I'd like to see more mental attributes. I'm one that instead of seeing the secondary with zone and man given their separate categories, I'd rather have a defender's physical attributes a large factor, combined with his football smarts and experience.

[Dutch]

I'm just glad to see people talking about stuff that will improve the game engine, not fix it, like FOF1 or FOF4. This is the "good kind" of improvements talk. :)

[Karim]

Penalties are one thing that I've wanted to see for a long time. I'd like to see this both in the play-by-play as well as being tracked on the player card so I can see who is a undisciplined.

Also, and the one that gets me the most, is when I get beat deep, I'd like to know who got burned or who screwed up. As of now, all I can do is take a look post-game at who gave up a lot of catches and assume he screwed up which isn't necessarily true. Either that or assume the person that makes the tackle 35+ yards downfield is the guy who screwed up.

[Rhone Ranger]

To (over)simplify it, I've used the Barry Sanders philosophy. If my running back has good speed to the outside, elusiveness, hole recognition, I want more finese runs...

I don't even take my O-line into consideration.

I always thought that a running back's hole recognition skill would be most important when he's using regular running plays and has a good offensive line to run behind (i.e. the holes actually exist!). Dutch seems to have the opposite approach, which made me wonder why I thought that hole recognition works the way I mentioned, and I realized that actually I have no idea. I'm just making a total guess :confused: and the game help screen doesn't explain the issue in any detail, saying only that it's an "ability to find an open hole in the defense".

Does anyone know - in terms specific to FOF - what hole recognition does, and in what circumstances you would care more about it than, say, speed to the outside or other RB attributes? Are there attributes in the offensive line that would amplify or dampen the importance of hole recognition (or any of the other RB characteristics for that matter)?

I'd like to have a sense of what attributes for one position type match up well with attributes from other positions. Having a clearer handle on this would make it much more fun to put together teams with particular styles, with players who aren't just good, but who have complementary skills, guys who play particularly well together. I'm not referring to high cohesion from spending time on the same team. I mean, say, linemen who do the kind of blocking that suits the style of the running back behind them.

FOF is such a great game, I just wish the documentation was more complete. I get the sense that there is a lot going on "under the hood" that the game documentation doesn't mention at all. This lack of documentation blocks the player from enjoying or appreciating the extra depth because it's extremely difficult to know what's being simulated and what isn't. :(

[Ben E Lou]

FOF is such a great game, I just wish the documentation was more complete. I get the sense that there is a lot going on "under the hood" that the game documentation doesn't mention at all. This lack of documentation blocks the player from enjoying or appreciating the extra depth because it's extremely difficult to know what's being simulated and what isn't. :(I wonder if we can get Jim to do a Q&A focused on some of the questions that we have.

[fantastic flying froggies]

It's funny because the whole discussion has focused on running backs. I, on the other hand, have always assumed that finesse runs were more the runs done by WRs, such as reverse,...

I guess this demonstrates that even though we all play the same game, every single one of us actually has its own interpretation of the game....

[Ben E Lou]

It's funny because the whole discussion has focused on running backs. I, on the other hand, have always assumed that finesse runs were more the runs done by WRs, such as reverse,...

I guess this demonstrates that even though we all play the same game, every single one of us actually has its own interpretation of the game....
The finesse running percentage indicates how many runs featuring misdirection (reverses, counterplays, draws and traps) will be used whenever a running play is called using the selected formation.
Reverses would be WR runs, but counters, draws and traps would go to backs.

[fantastic flying froggies]

Thanks, SkyDog, for rubbing my face in it...

;)

[AgPete]

I always thought that a running back's hole recognition skill would be most important when he's using regular running plays and has a good offensive line to run behind (i.e. the holes actually exist!). Dutch seems to have the opposite approach, which made me wonder why I thought that hole recognition works the way I mentioned, and I realized that actually I have no idea. I'm just making a total guess :confused: and the game help screen doesn't explain the issue in any detail, saying only that it's an "ability to find an open hole in the defense".
:(

I've always interpreted it like you, that a strong offensive line would benefit a runnning back with high hole recognition. I look at hole recognition as the field vision. I would use Emmitt Smith as an example. No one knew how to trust his olinemen more than Emmitt, he was very patient with his blockers and had an uncanny ability to know when to burst through the holes. There were a lot of backs that were faster than Emmitt but no one had his field vision. If I were giving him and Barry Sanders ratings during their prime, Sanders would have the faster attributes, but Emmitt would be much higher than Barry for field vision attributes like hole recognition.

[Dutch]

See, that's where I differ on the "hole recognition". Emmitt Smith may have been very patient, but he was also one of the quickest guys in the NFL to get the ball, hit the hole, and shoot through the hole. He was an O-line's dream. And what kind of "hole recognition" does a RB need if the play is designed to go off the RG gap? It really only becomes an issue when the hole he is supposed to hit isn't there, this, IMO, would happen more often on longer materializing runs such as a sweep or draw or even a trap.

I am not suggeseting normal "blast" plays don't require the "hole rec." ability.

[AgPete]

I'm not going to disagree that Emmitt had a lot of god given talent that gave him that quick burst nor that it didn't require a lot of football instincts to make progress with that monster offensive line the Cowboys had in the 90's :p but there's a reason why Parcells use to show his backs on the Jets and Pats game film of Emmitt running. I saw a press conference with him last year where he even talk about how he used to motivate Curtis Martin by telling him, "You're quicker than this guy, you're faster, but look at how he trusts his offensive line. He knows where to go with the ball."

[Rhone Ranger]

Everyone is making good points. The fact that we all see the issue a little differently is pretty good evidence that the FOF documentation is a little incomplete. ;)

We're discussing two things here. One is "How important is hole recognition for a running back in real-life football?" We can have fun debating this because there is always room for difference of opinion when looking at something that's difficult to quantify.

The second - related but distinct - question is "How is hole recognition simulated specifically in the FOF2004 computer game? Indirectly this relates to real football, of course, but specifically we're asking how Jim programmed things in FOF. In other words, how does Jim think that hole recognition works in the real football world, and how did he code that understanding into FOF?

The only way to answer the second question is to get word straight from Jim, or from an update to the FOF documentation.

Jim works hard on improving game features for us and that's excellent. But I think the best thing he could do for the game next isn't another game patch. What would help most of all is going through and fleshing out the game documentation to explain the depths of coolness that I'm nearly certain he's put into the innards of FOF but just not told us about. :)

[AgPete]

A detailed manual would be terrific! You're right, this thread really makes me realize how much we assume with the game and how everyone has their own interpretation of some of the game mechanics.