Should there be an asterisk next to the home run record?

[Franklinnoble]

Obviously, the players who have smashed Roger Maris's home run record in recent years were juiced. That record, and the career home runs record, is being tarnished by the not-so-shocking revelation that today's comically overmuscled power hitters have been taking steroids all along.

Does major league baseball need to step in and do something to correct the statistical anomalies that have been created? Or is the notion of the "statistical integrity of the game" a simple and naive contrivance that needs to be abandoned anyway?

[SirFozzie]

I say what I say to all these idiotic ideas:

Post Proof that they were on juice (and I don't mean circumstancial evidence, I mean HARD, drug test locked down proof) and we'll consider it.

Otherwise you're just talking out your ass.

[rkmsuf]

There's nothing they can do. The only recourse is not cheering or watching when Bonds passes Ruth or Aaron...

At the time it was exciting but looking back what a joke that McGwire/Sosa year was and what a joke Bond's 73 were...

The amazing part is fellow players stick up for these cheating punks...morons...

[Franklinnoble]

I say what I say to all these idiotic ideas:

Post Proof that they were on juice (and I don't mean circumstancial evidence, I mean HARD, drug test locked down proof) and we'll consider it.

Otherwise you're just talking out your ass.

Obviously, you've got your head up yours.

[JAG]

I think you can pretty much forget statistical integrity of the game at this point. I think many people pretty much discount everything that's happened statistically the past 15 years or so anyway.

[albionmoonlight]

Baseball did not have a policy in place that could detect and/or prevent these guys from being juiced when they set the records. Baseball should not get to rewrite history and say that "we should have been able to detect and stop these guys from using steroids, so we will go back in time and asterisk the records."

Baseball set the stage. It should have to live with the records produced by that stage.

[SirFozzie]

Obviously, you've got your head up yours.


IE, I can't prove anything so I'll just run my mouth over and over again.


As I said, if there's real proof, fine, let's do something about it. Otherwise, the record book stands. Rumor and Innuendo do NOT have a place in the record book.

[rkmsuf]

I'm shocked that some of the old guard hasn't been more vocal. Obviously Willie Mays can't say anything but where are all these other guys?

[SirFozzie]

a lot of the old guard spent their time blasted on alkyhol and drugs, and those who live in glass houses should not throw stones, neh?

[digamma]

Baseball set the stage. It should have to live with the records produced by that stage.
I'd argue that baseball did more than set the stage. To continue with your analogy, baseball not only set the stage, it advertised, underwrote and marketed the play. And it cashed in the receipt from the gate. Baseball saved itself with the home run chase of 1998, and capitalized on Bonds as well. Now we want asterisks?

[rkmsuf]

a lot of the old guard spent their time blasted on alkyhol and drugs, and those who live in glass houses should not throw stones, neh?

That is not the issue. I doubt say Mickey Mantle was aided by his nightly activities. Last time I checked it was harder to hit the little ball while drunk or hungover.

[JAG]

My favorite is the pitcher who threw a no-hitter while tripping on LSD and said the ball was telling hiim what pitches to throw.

[SirFozzie]

rkmsuf: Ok.. another example then. Greenies.

I'm, pretty sure THAT helped old time players out...

[rkmsuf]

rkmsuf: Ok.. another example then. Greenies.

I'm, pretty sure THAT helped old time players out...

Nevermind. No one wants to see anything. All the visual evidence, all the homeruns, the big bodies. Eveyone is just imagining it all. Gee whizz...

[Franklinnoble]

You honestly believe that there's even the slightest possibility that Barry Bonds DID NOT take steroids?

[SirFozzie]

HARD proof.

Not innuendo.

Bonds works out about 6 hours per day. There's a lot more sports training in the offseason compared to past years.

But nooooooo.... it HAS to be steroids.

[JAG]

Nevermind. No one wants to see anything. All the visual evidence, all the homeruns, the big bodies. Eveyone is just imagining it all. Gee whizz...

Let's also remember to imagine the former players who have come forward and admitted using steroids. That was bad Chinese food talking.

[SirFozzie]

You honestly believe that there's even the slightest possibility that Barry Bonds DID NOT take steroids?

Actually yes. I'm not sure, but remember, hard proof. EVERY player gets tested this year. Names come out, you know? I guess we'll see whether he is on the juice or not. Isn't it amazing how he maintains his look while other "juice" candidates like Giambi et all came into camp talking about their speed training slimming them down? Either he's on the juice and figures that he can beat the tests, or he was never on the juice.

[SirFozzie]

Let's also remember to imagine the former players who have come forward and admitted using steroids. That was bad Chinese food talking.

That proves that those players used steroids. That's hard proof, as I said. That doesn't prove that all statiscal leaders use them. That's rumor and innuendo.

See the difference?

[Daimyo]

If everybody is taking steriods doesn't that just raise the level of competition? Who's to say the people dominating now wouldn't dominate just the same had steriods never been discovered? Its not like any scrub off the streets can suddenly turn themselves into a 60 HR hitter just by juicing up.

With or without steriods, stats are only useful in the context of their era and this is just another thing to take into context. Baseball should do their best to rid the sport of illegal drugs, but I don't think you should discount anything that's happened over the last ten years (at least no more than you usually would in accounting for the differences in eras).

[John Galt]

You honestly believe that there's even the slightest possibility that Barry Bonds DID NOT take steroids?

Yeah, I'm 99% sure he took steroid precursors (like most players) that are legal and have a lot of the same effects as steroids. I think he may have even taken Human Growth Hormone (technically a non-steroid that was all the rage and legal for a while).

You see NFL linebackers his height and 30 lbs heavier (all muscle) and they are peeing in the cup all the time. Who is to say Bonds couldn't get that big (and still be way lighter than an NFL player) with hard work and legal supplements? I can't.

[miami_fan]

Look whether any of us like it or not Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, et al have never tested positive for steriods so their accomplishements should stand as is.

[rkmsuf]

They don't test

[SirFozzie]

Look whether any of us like it or not Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, et al have never tested positive for steriods so their accomplishements should stand as is.

Exactly.

Nice to see even with a biased poll, the poll is running against the asterisk :)

[Franklinnoble]

It's not rumor and innuendo when BALCO says that they SOLD STEROIDS TO BARRY BONDS. What? He was just buying them for Jeff Kent?

I don't expect to have video tape of Bonds shooting up, and I don't expect that Bonds is on anything that will show up on a drug test. But if you want to believe he's clean, go right ahead. Oh, and O.J. really was innocent, Pete Rose never bet on baseball, and Bill Clinton did not have sex with that woman...

These f*ckers lie. They lie all the damned time until it's physically impossible to lie any more. Bonds is no exception, and it's naive to assume otherwise.

[John Galt]

It's not rumor and innuendo when BALCO says that they SOLD STEROIDS TO BARRY BONDS.

Can you provide a link to that? I haven't read anything like that so far.

[SirFozzie]

John: Front page of ESPN.com

"Federal agents were told that Barry Bonds, Jason Giambi and Gary Sheffield were among a group of athletes that received steroids from BALCO, the San Francisco Chronicle reports. All three players have denied steroid use."

Once again, that they were SENT the stuff. Not that they requested it. Not that they did it.

It's like sending a pornographic video to someone, and then having someone claim that the someone is a porn freak. :rolleyes:

[Franklinnoble]

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/03/02/BALCO.TMP&type=printable

[rkmsuf]

John: Front page of ESPN.com

"Federal agents were told that Barry Bonds, Jason Giambi and Gary Sheffield were among a group of athletes that received steroids from BALCO, the San Francisco Chronicle reports. All three players have denied steroid use."

Once again, that they were SENT the stuff. Not that they requested it. Not that they did it.

It's like sending a pornographic video to someone, and then having someone claim that the someone is a porn freak. :rolleyes:

Give me a break

[SirFozzie]

ok.. what do you want broken?

[John Galt]

John: Front page of ESPN.com

"Federal agents were told that Barry Bonds, Jason Giambi and Gary Sheffield were among a group of athletes that received steroids from BALCO, the San Francisco Chronicle reports. All three players have denied steroid use."

Once again, that they were SENT the stuff. Not that they requested it. Not that they did it.

It's like sending a pornographic video to someone, and then having someone claim that the someone is a porn freak. :rolleyes:

I've read that story and it does NOT say anyone at BALCO says they sent steroids to Bonds et al. It says someone (unknown role in the affair) says they did it. Anonymous sources mean very little in this discussion and it is very different than someone at BALCO saying steroids were given to Bonds and the rest.

[JAG]

Foz, not sure why you're on such a crusade here, but here's a hard fact for you...
MLB tested players randomly last year and 7% tested positive. This is when baseball players knew they were going to be tested (and so had a chance to stop taking them) and also knowing that this test certainly doesn't catch every player that uses them. Are you really going to tell me you don't think there's a steroid problem in baseball? Do you think there is a chance that a statistical leader may have taken steroids? I do. I don't need proof in my hand that it happened. All the circumstantial evidence builds a good enough case for me.

[rkmsuf]

I doubt even a signed letter from GOD himself would convince baseball lapdogs...

[WussGawd]

I say what I say to all these idiotic ideas:

Post Proof that they were on juice (and I don't mean circumstancial evidence, I mean HARD, drug test locked down proof) and we'll consider it.

Otherwise you're just talking out your ass.

Um, you do know that McGwire confessed to being on andro when he broke Maris's record, right?

As for proof re. Giambi, Sheffield, Bonds, et al. You'll see proof during if not before the trials.

[John Galt]

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/03/02/BALCO.TMP&type=printable

I've read this - I don't think it says anyone at BALCO said that. I'm always loath to believe newspaper writers using anonymous sources (especially when they write it to imply it is some with more authority saying it). Until we know who these accusations are coming from, I don't think they are worth anything.

[rkmsuf]

I swear Bonds could test positive and that wouldn't even convince you. Somehow the test would be tainted or it was a set up or something...

He could confess and people would say he confessed due to the pressure and he actually didn't do it.

[miami_fan]

They don't test

And unfortunately those are the rules MLB has been under for the past 100 years. And as far as the players lying about being on the juice. That is irrelevant now just as a negative drug test to "prove" they were not on the juice 5 years ago. All MLB can do know it start from right now and clean up the game. If they put on astrisk because of the specualtions about steriods, then they need to add astrisks for the 154 game season, the DH, smaller ballparks, the breaking of the color barrier, the Dead Ball era, expansion etc

[John Galt]

Foz, not sure why you're on such a crusade here, but here's a hard fact for you...
MLB tested players randomly last year and 7% tested positive. This is when baseball players knew they were going to be tested (and so had a chance to stop taking them) and also knowing that this test certainly doesn't catch every player that uses them. Are you really going to tell me you don't think there's a steroid problem in baseball? Do you think there is a chance that a statistical leader may have taken steroids? I do. I don't need proof in my hand that it happened. All the circumstantial evidence builds a good enough case for me.

I have no doubt that some baseball players take steroids and some statistical leaders probably have too. However, pointing fingers at particular players is a witchhunt, not deduction.

[JAG]

And just to throw it out there, baseball's steroid policy is a joke. Kudos for Smoltz for calling it out.

[SirFozzie]

Foz, not sure why you're on such a crusade here, but here's a hard fact for you...
MLB tested players randomly last year and 7% tested positive. This is when baseball players knew they were going to be tested (and so had a chance to stop taking them) and also knowing that this test certainly doesn't catch every player that uses them. Are you really going to tell me you don't think there's a steroid problem in baseball? Do you think there is a chance that a statistical leader may have taken steroids? I do. I don't need proof in my hand that it happened. All the circumstantial evidence builds a good enough case for me.

That # includes a percentage of players who decided that the policy was a joke and did their best to force the harder line by not taking the test, which counted as a positive.

Andro wasn't illegal at the time that McGwire broke the record, was it? (I'm not sure on that to be honest, but yes, it would affect the 70 if it was made illegal PRIOR to the 70.)

Here's a little catchphrase for rkmsuf, franklinnoble et all. "Innocent until proven guilty".

Hopefully the truth will come out either way, and we can quit this "he has to be.. " lynch mob crap.

[John Galt]

I swear Bonds could test positive and that wouldn't even convince you. Somehow the test would be tainted or it was a set up or something...

He could confess and people would say he confessed due to the pressure and he actually didn't do it.

I don't like Bonds - I have no joy in seeing him break all sorts of records. I would believe he took steroids if there was some credible, direct evidence. Right now, there is NO direct evidence. And his growth in size is less than that of other athletes who are tested all the time. And you also continue to ignore every argument about precursors and HGH and good ol' fashioned hard work. His affiliation with BALCO is ugly, but not despositive.

[Franklinnoble]

The dissention in this thread is due to the fact that there are some people here who believe in moral absolutes, and others that prefer to enjoy a legalistic gray area.

Where there's smoke, there's fire. Baseball players are juiced. As JAG said, random testing has proved this. Bonds's personal trainer of several years has been caught illegally distributing steroids - and yet some insist that there's not sufficient proof that Bonds is on steroids.

What's very telling here is that no one is trying to say that steroid use isn't wrong - but those who support Bonds are definding the gray area he's hiding in right now.

There's a big difference between "legal and illegal" and "right and wrong." Maybe Bonds will never be convicted of anything illegal, but he sure as hell was wrong.

[John Galt]

And just to throw it out there, baseball's steroid policy is a joke. Kudos for Smoltz for calling it out.

On this, we agree.

[rkmsuf]

Great so they'll go to trial, prove the players received the stuff and that's it. I doubt there's film of anyone sticking a needle in their ass.

Baseball will test but those tests will remain a secret. Names will not be named.

It's cheating and the turning a blind eye to it only supports the notion that baseball is run by idiots. It takes the freaking federal government to bring to a head an important issue for crying out loud.

[damnMikeBrown]

[QUOTE=SirFozzie]HARD proof.


Bonds works out about 6 hours per day. There's a lot more sports training in the offseason compared to past years.
QUOTE]

It's not hard proof, but it is very damning evidence.

Steroids don't make you bigger, they reduce your recovery time. If you bang the weights (and this is a general statement) any longer than an hour a day, 5-6 days a week, you're not helping yourself. Your muscles can only take a certain work load before they are over worked.

As time goes by, the athlete ages. Age INCREASES the amount of time needed for recovery. A 38yr old man would be destroying any potential gains he'd make by putting that much work into his body. Not only destroying his gains, but actually cutting his current fitness level as his body catabolised itself to try and keep repairing itself. A 36yr old man putting 6hours of anything above very low intensity work into his body, daily, and gaining from it, is getting chemical assistance.

I have first hand seen the effects of steroids, pro-hormones, and pro-steroids. They are real, they are large. The stuff McGwire was taking(Andro, a Pro Hormone) is like calling a Ford Taurus a stock car ready vehicle for NASCAR. It is 5 generations ago, and almost negligible in it's effects. The designer ph's and ps's that are available now are absolutely stunning in their effectiveness.

Claims can easily and truthfully be made that no steroids were taken, if they were taking pro-hormones. Those are compounds that are 1 step away from steroids, such that they become a steroid once administered in the body. The "cream" statement from that attorney? Those are how most PH's are delivered, through topical cream.

Who the hell cares about baseball anyway though. Other than making fun text sims, it's good for nothing. They cancelled the World Series. They can go juice to the gills for all I care. They'll still not get a single $ of mine.

[rkmsuf]

I don't like Bonds - I have no joy in seeing him break all sorts of records. I would believe he took steroids if there was some credible, direct evidence. Right now, there is NO direct evidence. And his growth in size is less than that of other athletes who are tested all the time. And you also continue to ignore every argument about precursors and HGH and good ol' fashioned hard work. His affiliation with BALCO is ugly, but not despositive.

That's fine but you'll likely never get the answer. By the time everyone is done running around he'll be retired.

Beyond hard evidence you have to form an opinion by putting together the evidence you do have. All of it points to juice. It's not just Bonds but he's the highest profile...

[John Galt]

Whoa there - working out 6 hours a day is completely reasonable for a professional athlete during the offseason. That workout can include strength, flexibility, endurance, speed, practice, timing, etc. For a professional baseball player, there are boatloads of exercises and stretches that are done on a regular basis. 6 hours a day of pure weightlifting would be worthless - 6 hours a day of combined, cross-training workout is totally fine.

[SirFozzie]

In other words, we're back at step 1: I don't have any direct proof, but I say he did, and despite any hard proof, you are all wrong for doubting me.

[Franklinnoble]

If you buy a text sim that's licensed to use real MLB team names and player names, then they're getting your $. ;)

[John Galt]

That's fine but you'll likely never get the answer. By the time everyone is done running around he'll be retired.

Beyond hard evidence you have to form an opinion by putting together the evidence you do have. All of it points to juice. It's not just Bonds but he's the highest profile...

You better hope you are never accused of doing something illegal based on such flimsy evidence. Personal associations and muscle growth are barely passable for suspicion and you are ready to write him off entirely. That's crazy.

[MrBug708]

An astriek next to Bonds! Right next to to players with the most HR's never to win a WS

[rkmsuf]

You better hope you are never accused of doing something illegal based on such flimsy evidence. Personal associations and muscle growth are barely passable for suspicion and you are ready to write him off entirely. That's crazy.

People have been accused of worse with far less.

He's hasn't been convicted or put on trial for anything. It's all opinion right now. Heck if I hang around with shady characters people will probably have a shady opinion of me even though I may not be like them.

Anyway, it's his legacy. If Bonds wants to walk away like this then so be it. To me it seemed simple...test and remove all speculation.

[damnMikeBrown]

Whoa there - working out 6 hours a day is completely reasonable for a professional athlete during the offseason. That workout can include strength, flexibility, endurance, speed, practice, timing, etc. For a professional baseball player, there are boatloads of exercises and stretches that are done on a regular basis. 6 hours a day of pure weightlifting would be worthless - 6 hours a day of combined, cross-training workout is totally fine.

I said very low intensity. That includes stretching, perhaps timing. Endurance work is contrary to speed work, and would not be worked at the same time. Having personally performed 6hr daily endurance workouts for 4 weeks at a time, I can tell you that in no way would any athlete retain body mass.

It may be a combined effort. Cross-training as you put it, but it is still a cumulative load. He lifts for an hour, that's it, his body can't take any more and recover to rebuild. Put stretching in there, ok. Some timing drills, ok. Throw an hour run in there? Nope. Speed work? Sure, make it an hour, it's complementary to lifting. So you have an hour of lifting, hell make it 90minutes if he's slow. An hour of speed work, that's 2 1/2 hours of high intensity heavy work. Where are you going next? 2 hours of timing with an exhausted 36yr old? Um, if you think that's helpfull. How about another 90 minutes of stretching then? Well, ok, nothing wrong with that.

Time does not equal intensity.

[Samdari]

As ludicrous as it sounds, when Barry broke the record using steroids, he broke none of baseball's rules. Why would there be an asterisk?

[McSweeny]

steroids or no steroids, who really cares? It's just another chapter in baseball's history. It is no different than the changes the game saw when the went to the DH, lowered the mound, started playing night games, starting having teams on the west coast, allowed blacks to play, etc etc etc. Now there's a policy against it. It's like when they outlawed the spitball.

[rkmsuf]

They should bring back the spitball...

[SirFozzie]

*chuckles*

[damnMikeBrown]

They grandfathered the spitball though :) Let the guys who already threw it, keep throwing it.

I should again point out, that I could not care less about baseball. Let it all go up in flames. Maybe they'll replay the '94 series to get more interest back in the game. Whatever, they lost me long ago.

What I care more about is personal integrity. Again, they're ball players, so I don't care a whole lot. I loosely follow this more for the unintentional comedy aspect.

[Logan]

I feel strongly that with all the masking agents and the new steroids that are developed that can't be traced, we won't know for sure who has been taking steroids until years down the road when these players start DYING because of what they have done to their bodies.

[rkmsuf]

Ok instead of an asterisk perhaps they could compromise and put a needle next to certain records...

**rim shots**

[SirFozzie]

Only if it's a needle with a question mark.

[molson]

Two arguments going on here - I don't think anyone can seriously think MLB can make statements about the legitamacy of records without any formal investigation, they can't just finger players based on appearance.

However, I'm trying to figure out if the dissenters here actually believe that it is more likely than not that the steriod use among the game's best power hitters is anything less than huge. The "Innocent until proven guilty" and "hard evidence required" ideas are useless here - because there's been no investigation against these guys. Lack of evidence when there has been no investigation is NOT evidence of innocence. This isn't court. I believe that the fact that such a strong case for mass steriod use can be made based on ONLY what the general public knows is VERY telling. We don't have access to things a investigation may/may not produce: interviews with suppliers, phone taps, locker room witnesses under oath, etc.

So honestly, does anyone think there's a chance that only a handful of guys are juiced?

IMO, things won't really change until some of these guys start dropping dead in 10 years.

MO

[Buzzbee]

As ludicrous as it sounds, when Barry broke the record using steroids, he broke none of baseball's rules. Why would there be an asterisk?

Is this true? If steroids are "legal" in MLB why do they test for them? I'm not being a smart-ass. I really want to know. Are steroids "illegal" in MLB?

In my opinion, there should not be an asterisk by the records. Even if they prove TODAY that Bonds is on steroids, they cannot prove that he was when he it 73. Is it probable that if Bonds is on steroids today that he was then, yes. Also, even if Bonds admits that he was using steroids heavily when he broke the record, can it be shown how many homeruns or RBI or walks or steals can be attributed to his steroid use?

One final question: Does anyone know what MLB's penalty is for steroid use? First offense? Second offense? Third? I'm guessing that it isn't that stiff. I'm guessing that corking a bat carries a stiffer penalty. Should anyone who ever corked a bat have asterisks next to their name?

[miami_fan]

Two arguments going on here - I don't think anyone can seriously think MLB can make statements about the legitamacy of records without any formal investigation, they can't just finger players based on appearance.

However, I'm trying to figure out if the dissenters here actually believe that it is more likely than not that the steriod use among the game's best power hitters is anything less than huge. The "Innocent until proven guilty" and "hard evidence required" ideas are useless here - because there's been no investigation against these guys. Lack of evidence when there has been no investigation is NOT evidence of innocence. This isn't court. I believe that the fact that such a strong case for mass steriod use can be made based on ONLY what the general public knows is VERY telling. We don't have access to things a investigation may/may not produce: interviews with suppliers, phone taps, locker room witnesses under oath, etc.

So honestly, does anyone think there's a chance that only a handful of guys are juiced?

IMO, things won't really change until some of these guys start dropping dead in 10 years.

MO

I don't know if I am a "dissenter" or not. Is steriod use in MLB(as a whole, not just for the power hitters) rampant? Yes! Do I believe certain players are on steriods or were on steriods in the past? Yes! But that does not mean that I or anybody else is right. I only know of one way to know if someone is using steriods or not and that is to test for it. MLB and the MLBPA for years did not test. Now they have come up with a bogus drug policy. Like I have said before, it is TOO late to remedy the indiscretions of the past. I agree guys will start dropping as the 'roids destroy their body. But let's assume for the sake of argument, Sosa lives to be 90 and Bonds drops at 40. Does that mean Sammy was clean and Bonds was not?

[Vince]

Is this true? If steroids are "legal" in MLB why do they test for them? I'm not being a smart-ass. I really want to know. Are steroids "illegal" in MLB?

In my opinion, there should not be an asterisk by the records. Even if they prove TODAY that Bonds is on steroids, they cannot prove that he was when he it 73. Is it probable that if Bonds is on steroids today that he was then, yes. Also, even if Bonds admits that he was using steroids heavily when he broke the record, can it be shown how many homeruns or RBI or walks or steals can be attributed to his steroid use?

One final question: Does anyone know what MLB's penalty is for steroid use? First offense? Second offense? Third? I'm guessing that it isn't that stiff. I'm guessing that corking a bat carries a stiffer penalty. Should anyone who ever corked a bat have asterisks next to their name?
Steroids are illegal in MLB NOW. They weren't back then. So back in the day, Bonds wasn't breaking any rules, even if he was on steroids.

As for the MLB's penalty, it's absolutely pansy-assed. I don't know exactly, but first offense is a warning, I believe, and the second offense is either a 5,000 fine or like a 10 day suspension. Player's choice, I believe. It isn't until the 5th offense that the penalties are anywhere near harsh.

[tucker342]

All I'll say is: Innocent until proven guilty.

[SirFozzie]

Amen to that.

[Galaril]

Obviously, you've got your head up yours.

I agree these guys are juiced no doubt.If you don't believe it I guess you must believe that Saddam's WMD will be dug up from the Arabian desert.

[korme]

Maris shot up between innings, he was so juiced on 'roids it was ridiculous.

What, you guys didn't know?

[korme]

No. I believe Barry when he says he never took steroids. Elvis told me so just last Tuesday.

Why must all polls present their opposite view in a biased opinion? That's like insulting anyone who votes for that option, ugh, pet peeve of mine.

[ISiddiqui]

Since it wasn't illegal at the time, then no, no asterick. And people act like this is a new development. You don't think players took supplements in the 60s, 70s, etc?

[Buccaneer]

Some of you are forgetting that there are ways to cheat drug testing, esp. if you have money. Also, there are many classes of steroids and supplements. Some tests only check for certain ones (like blood tests - you look for specific things). Do I believe Bonds, Sosa, Giambi and yes, McGwire bulked up on legal and/or illegal drugs - absolutely.

[AENeuman]

Ok, give Barry the asterisk. But we need to have a symbol for those who took the 'roids and still remained average (like nearly all but the already great). So next Marvin Bernard it should read: took 'roids, no all star games, still swings at high fastball.

[Vince]

To follow up, here's the general description of the steroid penalties, from an article on ESPN.com -

This season, players will be randomly tested, after five to seven percent of players tested positive for steroids last season. Under the agreement, which expires in Dec. 2006, the first time a player tests positive for steroids, he will have to get treatment. For the second through fifth violations, players face suspensions of 15 days up to a year and fines of $10,000 up to $100,000. A five-time offender in the minor leagues is permanently expelled.

So it seems that each penalty is a suspension and a fine (after the first). So the SECOND TIME you get caught using steroids, you get suspended for 15 days and fined $10,000. Pretty weak, if you ask me.

EDIT - What I'm curious about is the MO for players who have tested positive? Let's say a guy gets tested positive, undergoes treatment. When does he get re-tested?

[Taur]

What about an Asterisk for playing in today's tiny ball parks. Forget steroids I say Ruth would of been hitting HRs in the triple digits playing in today's ballparks.

For a fun trip down memory lane; I dare you to go to the house that Ruth built. Once there go to the left field and enter the "Park" area. They have moved in the fences so much at Yankee Stadium they have built a nice little park out in left field.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Who cares about Baseball? Boooooorring. I think they should just put an asterisk right next to the MLB logo (that stands for the most boring and shoddiest run league in major sports history)

[molson]

What about an Asterisk for playing in today's tiny ball parks. Forget steroids I say Ruth would of been hitting HRs in the triple digits playing in today's ballparks.

For a fun trip down memory lane; I dare you to go to the house that Ruth built. Once there go to the left field and enter the "Park" area. They have moved in the fences so much at Yankee Stadium they have built a nice little park out in left field.

Or maybe there should be an Asterisk next to Ruth's records for not having to play against blacks and latinos? Imagine if all black and latino pitchers in today's game were suddently replaced by minor league whites? Then were would offensive numbers be? Stats are all relative.

[Young Drachma]

I wrote a brief something on the Bonds issue and why I think its implausible that he was taking steroids. Hate him all you want - I don't care. But I love how people here are so convinced that baseball players are all on steroids, the best players have no talent and they're not getting better, stronger, etc.

At the end of the day, if the records of today are invalid, then the records pre-Jackie Robinson are all invalid too. Oh, but that's different. Riight.

Link (http://www.ishouldstudymore.net/shr/archives/000581.html)

The case against Barry Bonds and steroids
For all the talk of steroids, people using them and the implication that baseball's best player - and one of the game's best ever - was using steroids is not only blasmphemous, but a whole bunch of sour grapes.

The adage is, "the media can make you and break you." For Barry Bonds and his entire career, its been an issue of "breaking you constantly." Bonds is no fan of the media and they in turn, have very little love for him. He has grown a little more amiable to discussing things after his recent MLB record 73-homer season, but that all went by the wayside after the debate over his alleged use of steroids.

Or maybe its because Barry is coming near the hallowed ground of "The Babe"

HIS FATHER WAS BOBBY BONDS. HIS GODFATHER WAS WILLIE MAYS. The kid grew up around baseball. Not just any ol' baseball player either. But two players that are considered greats. He's lived his life in their shadows TRYING to reach them.

If he was juicing, not only would they be likely to know it - and obviously disapprove of his cheating. But he would be so afraid of the shame it would reflect not just on him as a person, but his family's name forever.

I think the furor over him has less to do with race and more to do with his personality. People are upset, think he's a jerk and want to skewer him. That said, I think people need to back off.