Lions looking to trade down with the Pats?

[Honolulu_Blue]

I know it's painfully early yet, especially considering most draft deals take place the day of, but the latest rumor out of Detroit has the Lions in serious talks with the Patriots. The Lions would trade the 6th overall pick for the Patriot's 21, 32, and a pick from some later round.

Link: http://www.mlive.com/lions/stories/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/107831222561410.xml

In some ways this deal could make sense for both teams.

[rkmsuf]

The Pats will need to do something. They probably don't want all of those picks financially...

[stevew]

Well according to a pick value chart, the Lions are getting screwed if they get anything less than both of the Pats 1sts and their second rounder.

[rkmsuf]

Well according to a pick value chart, the Lions are getting screwed if they get anything less than both of the Pats 1sts and their second rounder.

No way Matt Millen knows how to work that thing...

[Honolulu_Blue]

Well according to a pick value chart, the Lions are getting screwed if they get anything less than both of the Pats 1sts and their second rounder.

They certainly would. I know New England has 5 picks in the first three rounds. How does it break down after the two firsts? Two seconds or two thirds?

[rkmsuf]

They certainly would. I know New England has 5 picks in the first three rounds. How does it break down after the two firsts? Two seconds or two thirds?

2 first
2 second
2 fourth

I'm not sure if they have a third...

[Honolulu_Blue]

2 first
2 second
2 fourth

I'm not sure if they have a third...

Gotcha. Well, maybe they could swing both firsts, the later second and then swap a second day pick or so. All incredibly speculative at this point, of course.

[kserra]

No way Matt Millen knows how to work that thing...

ouch...but so true.

It's no wonder games that allow us to simulate being a GM are so popular in Metro Detroit...with the recent examples of Randy Smith and Millen, everyone KNOWS they can do better...

I do hope the Lions make a move with that pick...just scared to think what Millen will agree to...

Kevin

[stevew]

Gotcha. Well, maybe they could swing both firsts, the later second and then swap a second day pick or so. All incredibly speculative at this point, of course.


Yeah, something like that sounds realistic. Pick 6 is worth 1600 points. Picks 21 and 32 are worth a combined 1390 points. Pick 32 in the second round is worth 270 points. So if the lions included a 5th, it would likely be balanced

[wig]

God I hate the pick chart

[SirFozzie]

I'd take that deal if I was the Pats.. they could get a really good pick at a need spot at 6..

[cthomer5000]

God I hate the pick chart
same here. It in no way factors in the quality or depth in the draft.

Are you telling me the #5 pick is worth the same in these 2 situations:

5 superstar players, then a considerable drop-off

1 superstar player, then players of roughly the same value in spots 2-25.

The chart is ridiculous. Any team that lives strictly by that is sure to fail.

[cthomer5000]

and who would the Pats be targeting at #6 ?

[Honolulu_Blue]

God I hate the pick chart

Voila!

NE's picks in each round are worth (according to the chart):
21 & 32 = 1390
57 (2) = 330
64 (2) = 270
96 (3) = 116
113 (3) = 68
128 (4) = 44
160 (5) = 28.4

DET's picks:
6 = 1600
37 (2) = 530
74 (3) = 220
105 (4) = 84
136 (5) = 38

Possible combinations for an fairly equal trade (AS PER THE VALUE CHART ONLY!):

NE..........................................................DET
a...21,32,96,128 = 1550.......................6 = 1600
b...21,32,57,96 = 1836.........................6, 74 = 1820
c...21,32,64 = 1660...............................6, 105 = 1684
d...21,32,57= 1720................................6,105,136 = 1722
e...21,32,64,128 = 1704.......................6,105,136 = 1722
f ...21,32,64,96,160 = 1804.4..............6,74 = 1820
g...21,32,64,113 =1738........................6,105,136=1722
h...21,32,96,113 = 1574.......................6 = 1600
i...21,32,96,113,128= 1618.................6,136= 1638
j...21,32,64,160 = 1688.4.....................6,105 = 1684

[rkmsuf]

I'd guess Stephen Jackson is the leader in the clubhouse at this point...at least that's what's been floated...

[BishopMVP]

Maybe a #1 WR.

[Honolulu_Blue]

and who would the Pats be targeting at #6 ?

That's what I am not sure about. Other than a running back (none of which are worthy of #6), I don't know what the Pats really need. Some have suggested a nice, big wide-out. If that were the case they may be hoping for Roy Williams? Assuming Fitzgerald and Mike Williams will be gone by then. A puss-rushing DE? Udeze? I don't have a firm grasp of the Pats' needs.

[rkmsuf]

Maybe a #1 WR.

Doubtful...that flies in the face of the way they've built the team. With the emergence of Givins and a likely redoing of his deal combined with Bethel Johnson's expected development, I'd suspect it is not WR.

[rkmsuf]

dola it's also possible that with the expected defection of Ted Washington that NE may be targeting some big tub of lard to play the 3-4 with that pick...

[cthomer5000]

That's what I am not sure about. Other than a running back (none of which are worthy of #6), I don't know what the Pats really need. Some have suggested a nice, big wide-out. If that were the case they may be hoping for Roy Williams? Assuming Fitzgerald and Mike Williams will be gone by then. A puss-rushing DE? Udeze? I don't have a firm grasp of the Pats' needs.
to me, Udeze seems the most likely target (or maybe Gallery if he fell?). I wouldn't see the point in trading up for a WR, as a great one will likely fall to them at their first pick.

[BishopMVP]

Doubtful...that flies in the face of the way they've built the team. With the emergence of Givins and a likely redoing of his deal combined with Bethel Johnson's expected development, I'd suspect it is not WR.Yeah, WR is definitely not a priority. But which players and positions fit there? The QB's, Sean Taylor and Winslow are not needs, so that leaves WR and OT as the only players projected Top 6 right now that might fit in. Seems high for Jackson/Udeze/CB/a DT, even though the Globe is reporting Washington is probably gone.

After re-thinking, I'd guess OT with Andrews/Gallery as the most likely possibility other than RB, especially because they could get a big potential #1 WR at 21 or 32.

[BishopMVP]

Possible dola. After doing some looking around, Andrews stock is plummeting after the combine and some mock drafts have Jackson/Udeze Top 6. No DT up that high (although Harris is around 10 in some, but barely in the 1st in others.) I'm still not seeing it, but these are just rumors. If Gallery slides or they are certain Jackson will go between 6 and the next team they can trade with, I guess, but either way they'll probably wait until closer to draft day.

[bigdawg2003]

Kiper has Tommie Harris at #5

riiiiiiiiiiiight

[BishopMVP]

Kiper has Tommie Harris at #5
Wilfork would be a better fit in the Pats scheme too, as the numbers have him about 25-35 pounds more than any other Top DT.

[Hammer755]

A mock draft that was discussed on the local sports talk last evening had a similar deal involving New England and the Texans, with the Pats getting Houston's #10 pick in exchange for the 21 and 32. Of course, the same mock draft had the Texans selecting Rashaun Woods at 32, which is ridiculous on a team with a decent WR-corps and a poor defense.

[rkmsuf]

One other one I've heard is in light of the possible loss of Ty Law, NE may select Sean Taylor there and move Wilson back to corner. Taylor didn't do himself any favors at the combine however as he reportedly came off as smug and uninterested.

I don't think this scenario happens but it's one that's out there...

[pjstp20]

Maybe they should replace thier Center that the Dolphins are about to snatch up.

[rkmsuf]

Maybe they should replace thier Center that the Dolphins are about to snatch up.

Since when is Dan Koppen a free agent?

If you are going to talk smack at least get the names and positions correct...

[pjstp20]

Well Gaurd/Center then sorry, big mistake I know. Anyway the Dolphins will use him as a center.

[rkmsuf]

Well Gaurd/Center then sorry, big mistake I know. Anyway the Dolphins will use him as a center.

Not a big loss to the Pats. Would you like to keep him...probably but they are not going to pay big bucks for a center that can't snap in the shotgun or a guard...

[pjstp20]

Ha......that line was the lifeblood of Brady's success. To act like losing any of the starting 5 is a minor inconvienience is laughable.

[Desnudo]

Well Gaurd/Center then sorry, big mistake I know. Anyway the Dolphins will use him as a center.

Will they be able to use him as QB as well? :p

If they do trade up I'd guess it would be for an OT/DL since that seems to be the philosophy. Personally I'd rather see them hold onto all their picks and finally get a decent RB and another decent player or two. The only truely glaring need to me is RB, possibly DL now that Washington is gone. But surely there'd be a serviceable OT/DL in the low 1st round.

[Desnudo]

Ha......that line was the lifeblood of Brady's success. To act like losing any of the starting 5 is a minor inconvienience is laughable.

Yes, but Dan Koppen wasn't starting at Center because he was first choice. Injuries killed their O-line early, so it's reasonable to think that they are still in decent shape for next season. Although Woody is an excellent player.

[rkmsuf]

Ha......that line was the lifeblood of Brady's success. To act like losing any of the starting 5 is a minor inconvienience is laughable.

You obviously haven't the faintest what you are talking about.

Keep pumping yourself up. I can't even continue this with the above statement.

[Samdari]

Ha......that line was the lifeblood of Brady's success. To act like losing any of the starting 5 is a minor inconvienience is laughable.

Woody was hurting most of last season, and was not a starter at the end of the year, including the super bowl. The line they just won the league title with will remain intact (even with Woody being a better player than Koppen, IMO).

[rkmsuf]

Woody was hurting most of last season, and was not a starter at the end of the year, including the super bowl. The line they just won the league title with will remain intact (even with Woody being a better player than Koppen, IMO).

Agreed but Dolphin boy will come up with something. He was right on with the playoff analysis...

Seriously, I think Woody is a good player...not a great player. It will be interesting to see what kind of money he gets thrown at him and if he does cash in how big Big Wood gets. Here's reportedly somewhat of a lazy ass...not saying it will happen but it could be interesting. Either way at big money he's absolutely replacable.

[Desnudo]

This is completely off thread, but I think Woody looks like an enormous dope smoker. Maybe that's where the lazy rep comes from. Although Seymour looks like he's stoned all the time and plays lights out.

[Samdari]

This is completely off thread, but I think Woody looks like an enormous dope smoker. Maybe that's where the lazy rep comes from. Although Seymour looks like he's stoned all the time and plays lights out.

I don't know where you get that he has a bad rep. Before this season, he was considered their best lineman, wasn't he?

[pjstp20]

I don't know where you get that he has a bad rep. Before this season, he was considered their best lineman, wasn't he?
Ehhh....it just looks like a lot of Chowd denial about losing a good player, I wouldn't look too much into it.

[FrogMan]

I don't know where you get that he has a bad rep. Before this season, he was considered their best lineman, wasn't he?
yes, and he is, but he's always been known to balloon his weight in the offseason and this has never looked good as far as work ethic goes...

FM

[FrogMan]

dola, and before pjstpgenius20 says anything, I'm not in denial, I'm not happy to lose him, not one bit. He is indeed a very good OL. Can't snap shotgun though, remember that...

FM

[pjstp20]

dola, and before pjstpgenius20 says anything, I'm not in denial, I'm not happy to lose him, not one bit. He is indeed a very good OL. Can't snap shotgun though, remember that...

FM
pjstpgenius20, hahahaha. I like that one, much more original than Dolphin Boy. Glad to see I can still spark animosity among you chowds.

[FrogMan]

hehe :) yeah, although I'm not too sure how a Canadian fellow living in Quebec City qualifies as a chowds...

FM

[rkmsuf]

I'll bet you there's a thread somewhere declaring the Pats line overrated and that Woody sucks because he can't snap. How the line won't hold up against good teams and such. They can't run...yada, yada, yada.

Suddenly Woody is Mike Webster...

[Ksyrup]

pjstpgenius20, hahahaha. I like that one, much more original than Dolphin Boy. Glad to see I can still spark animosity among you chowds.
Woody's good, but he's no Kurt Cobain.

[SteelerFan448]

Man, I'd keep that pick if I were Detroit. Sean Taylor is going to be an oustanding NFL player.

I would think New England would be targeting Steven Jackson.

[pjstp20]

Woody's good, but he's no Kurt Cobain.
My two shinning moments here at FOFC. My Patriot and Nirvana rant. I'm glad I'll be remembered for something.

[Ksyrup]

:)

[timmae]

I guess the throbbing brain forgets nothing.... man I love you guys!

[pjstp20]

hehe :) yeah, although I'm not too sure how a Canadian fellow living in Quebec City qualifies as a chowds...

FM
I modified the rules a bit, anyone who roots for the Patsies is a Chowd in my book.

[SunDancer]

Where is the pick value chart?

[gstelmack]

I modified the rules a bit, anyone who roots for the Patsies is a Chowd in my book.
Mmmmmmm, corn chowder...

[cthomer5000]

Where is the pick value chart?
Vegas Vic posted one that we have linked over at IHOF (http://www.fof-ihof.com). check the "files" section, it's probably near the bottom.

[Desnudo]

I don't know where you get that he has a bad rep. Before this season, he was considered their best lineman, wasn't he?

I got it from a very reliable source about two posts up from me. ;) And the word is lazy not bad. In any case if he goes to the Dolphins he'll just be another flapping fish to be squished twice a year. No worries for a third annual meeting anytime in the foreseeable future.

[pjstp20]

No worries for a third annual meeting anytime in the foreseeable future.
Yeah with 20 unrestricted free agents I cant see the Pats making the playoffs next year.

[cthomer5000]

Yeah with 20 unrestricted free agents I cant see the Pats making the playoffs next year.
are you insane? As I Jets fan, I'm embarassed at how the whole AFC East just seems to be handing the division to the Pats for the forseeable future. Both the Jets and Dolphins are going to be aroun 7-9 this year, and the Bills right behind. As much as it pains me to say this, the Pats will cruise.

[pjstp20]

Dola - you can already say good bye to Ted Washington. But maybe he was fat, lazy too. So another inconsequential loss.

[FrogMan]

Yeah with 20 unrestricted free agents I cant see the Pats making the playoffs next year.
LOL!!! Here's another we should save for the future :D :D :D

FM

[FrogMan]

Dola - you can already say good bye to Ted Washington. But maybe he was fat, lazy too. So another inconsequential loss.
I'm not saying he was fat and/or lazy, and I will miss him, as I think he fit the Pats 3-4 scheme like a glove, but he is looking for bigger money than what the Belichick and Pioli are ready to pay. I gotta agree with the guys that gave us two Super Bowl in three seasons, at least until they screw up real good a few times...

FM

[cthomer5000]

Dola - you can already say good bye to Ted Washington. But maybe he was fat, lazy too. So another inconsequential loss.
Do you understand that it is letting guys like this go, instead of handing them insane money (like Oakland just did), that keeps teams like Philly and New England good?

[FrogMan]

dola, and I'm sure many people can find a quote of me saying how mad I was with the Milloy release, but with hindsight, you have to agree that BB and Pioli knew what they had in Harrison...

FM

[rkmsuf]

Do you understand that it is letting guys like this go, instead of handing them insane money (like Oakland just did), that keeps teams like Philly and New England good?

Come on, I think you know the answer to that...

[SirFozzie]

and the Pats playa hatin continues ;)

I think we'll be good long term. Wonder who'd they take at 6 though..

[BishopMVP]

Yeah with 20 unrestricted free agents I cant see the Pats making the playoffs next year.
We're really going to miss Antwan Harris and Fred Baxter.

Take a young team (check) that just won the Super Bowl (check) add in 1 great LB who was injured all year (Colvin) and add 7 picks in the 1st 4 rounds (check) then subtract (at most) 6 contributors. Nope, can't see them making the playoffs either :rolleyes:

[pjstp20]

Do you understand that it is letting guys like this go, instead of handing them insane money (like Oakland just did), that keeps teams like Philly and New England good?
Philly? Didnt they just offer injury prone Kerse a huge contract?

[pjstp20]

Come on guys calm down, it was a little joke intended to ruffle your sensitive feathers, and apparently it worked like a charm. Desnudo left an opening and I took a jab. Relax, no ones taking your ball, you can have your playoffs next year.

[Samdari]

Philly? Didnt they just offer injury prone Kerse a huge contract?

That is so totally out of character for them. Except the fact that Kearse is still very young, and the Eagles reluctance to pay their own free agents big money mostly applied to players over 30. This philosophy has allowed them to ditch a fading (faster than anyone but them knew, I guess) Hugh Douglas for a young Kearse.

[Balldog]

Ted Washington will be a big loss to the Patriots run defense.

[FrogMan]

Ted Washington will be a big loss to the Patriots run defense.
Agreed, he fits the 3-4 perfectly...

FM

[jeff061]

Keeping in mind the weeks Washington was injured their run defense gave up less yards than when he was playing.

Still love Washington, and not pleased to see him go. But after just about blowing a gasket in anger of Belicheck letting Milloy go, and seeing what happened over the year, i am a little more open minded now to see players i thought were unreplaceable be let go.

Yes this includes Ty Law, but i hope it doesn't come to that. Though what the hell was up with that offer?

[pjstp20]

If you guys lose Law you are not the same team I don't care what you say. Losing one good player last year (Milloy) can be overcome, but to drop three? That begins to sound like a rebuilding year.

[jeff061]

And we weren't supposed to make the playoffs, or beat the titans, or the colts, or win the super bowl.

Troll.

[BishopMVP]

Milloy was replaced at a portion of the cost. There is no one who can replace Law, and out of those on the market no one is close. His number is only $10 million this year, so there is little chance of him not wearing the Pats uniform next year.

[pjstp20]

And we weren't supposed to make the playoffs, or beat the titans, or the colts, or win the super bowl.

Troll.
Get a clue dude its not trolling its a fact

[RendeR]

I modified the rules a bit, anyone who roots for the Patsies is a Chowd in my book.

I thought everyone realized that Quebec City was part of "New England - North"?

[FrogMan]

I thought everyone realized that Quebec City was part of "New England - North"?
Heh, no I never realized that, but I may qualify as an adopted New Englander by the fact I lived in Mass. for almost two years and my son was born there ;)

FM

[FrogMan]

Get a clue dude its not trolling its a fact
No it wasn't a fact, it was before the games ever happened. That was your opinion of what was supposed to happen, that the Pats were not supposed to win these games, or more accurately that they couldn't win 'em all... trolling? bah, who cares ;)

FM

[jeff061]

Its that, and even after being proved wrong, several times, its the same old song.

Not to mention we would be losing 1 big player, not 3. We lost Milloy before a super bowl season, i don't think that really counts anymore. The Pats can live without Washington.

Ty Law would be a huge loss, but i thought the same about Milloy(though not quite as strongly), so until proven otherwise, i'll give Belicheck and Pioli the benefit of the doubt.

[gstelmack]

New England management has already said they'll keep Law at his current cap number. They'd like to renegotiate / extend for next year and beyond, but they'll go into this season with Law at his current contract.

[pjstp20]

Better hope he doesn't hold out, it looked like he was pretty pissed about the last offer.

The fact I was reffering to was: without Ty Law, Ted Washington, and Damien Woody, you arent the same team. Thats a lot of talent to make up in one off season. It doesnt mean the Pats won't be competitive, but they're altogether significant losses.

[gstelmack]

If he holds out while scheduled to make $9+million, then good riddance.

[Vegas Vic]

same here. It in no way factors in the quality or depth in the draft.

Are you telling me the #5 pick is worth the same in these 2 situations:

5 superstar players, then a considerable drop-off

1 superstar player, then players of roughly the same value in spots 2-25.

The chart is ridiculous. Any team that lives strictly by that is sure to fail.

Actually, all of the GM's use it pretty much the same way. The only adjustment is for the first handful of picks. If you have a guy that only comes around once every few years, they'll assign him 4,000 or 5,000 points.

After the first few picks, the chart is used almost to the letter by all of the teams.

[cthomer5000]

After the first few picks, the chart is used almost to the letter by all of the teams.
Which, again, is ridiculous. The receivers that are available in the late 1st/early 2nd this year would be mid-to-high 1st rounders in other years (due to the outstanding WR depth this year).

I think you need to think about what *player* you are getting with that pick, you can't just assume any player taken at pick #5 is worth 2,000 points (or whatever the actual value is).

I understand the basic principle, but I'm just not that sure I agree with the way the values are distributed on the chart.

[jeff061]

We'll see on Damion Woody, the o-line had arguably their best games of the season when Woody was injured. What happened to Carolina's much vaunted defensive line? Dwight Freeney was a no show as well.

I'd be simply amazed if Ty Law held out this next season. Its not like he's making nothing. I don't think he's upset with what he's making now, but what the Patriots want to change it to. Being pissed about the offer will make it harder to sign him to an extension and rework is contract, i don't think he'll be sitting out.

[Samdari]

After the first few picks, the chart is used almost to the letter by all of the teams.

I think they all use it as a guideline, but then throw it out the window when there is a player they covet available at a pick they know they can have.

[rkmsuf]

Hold out? What are you people nuts? Law would be tickled pink to play out his deal. He's not intiating anything. The Pats approached him...

[JAG]

Better hope he doesn't hold out, it looked like he was pretty pissed about the last offer.

The fact I was reffering to was: without Ty Law, Ted Washington, and Damien Woody, you arent the same team. Thats a lot of talent to make up in one off season. It doesnt mean the Pats won't be competitive, but they're altogether significant losses.

As someone mentioned, no way does Law hold out with a $9 million salary for the year. Even if they lost him along with the other you mentioned, getting 7 high draft picks with a well-respected personnel group along with whatever free agents they sign will probably more than make up for the players they have lost. I think at this point, the Patriots have the best shot of anyone to get a title, but of course, it's always difficult to repeat.

[pjstp20]

I dont think Law will hold out but you have to consider that although his contract pays him well the next two years, he wants top corner money now. Something he may not get when he becomes a free agent two years from now.

[rkmsuf]

Isn't 9 and 12 million top corner money?

[jeff061]

Which was another point i was going to mention about Law. For is career, up until the playoffs, he was a top 5 Corner. It wasn't until the playoffs(where he was just incredibly good) that he was vaulted into another stratosphere.

Who's to say he will continue to play this way, especially since he's pushing 31 or 32. Maybe he's simply not worth the money. I don't think its quite so black and white.

[pjstp20]

Hes getting 7.2 in salary and bonuses. Champ Bailey got 9+. I think Law wants a contract that will pay him 9+ over the next 5 years, rather than sit at 7+ for the next two years. I cant see him getting that type of contract two years from now, he's trying to strike while the irons hot.

[rkmsuf]

it's one year from now. No chance he comes back for 12 million in 2005.

How he expects to get a RAISE out of this is beyond me.

Actually I don't believe Law expects that. It's as simple as he doesn't want to restructure downward at all...

[JAG]

pjstp20, think of it this way: The Pats play hardball with him. Do you really think he'll sit out this season rather than play and take his $9 million? If he hasn't yet realized he has absolutely no leverage, his agent should make him apprised of this.

[pjstp20]

Don't mean to fan the flames but heres a quote by Law in the February 27th Globe:

"I told Belichick I want to be a Patriot. If you guys won't give me what I deserve, let me go and prove it to you somewhere else. I have no problems with that whatsoever. I made that loud and clear all year. If I've got to go, I've got to go. I want to be here. If you care for me personally the way you say you do, pay me, and if you can't, let me go take advantage of other opportunities out there. Let me go. Let's not have it be an ugly situation like the one with Lawyer."

Maybe it's just posturing but it is what he said.

[jeff061]

He doesn't, but a contract he signs now will pay him more in 2006 than a contract he would sign in 2005. I agree with this, i agree with pjstp20 :). I don't think he will ever duplicate the performance he put up in the national spotlight. Shut down half the field against every team in the playoffs. Only guy to test him was Manning, and he got himself 3 tough picks. He would be getting a contract based off these few games as much as his career from any other team. I still don't think he will sit out though.

He said that stuff in the globe after he was offered a contract that paid him diddly. I don't blame him, what a stupid ass offer.

[rkmsuf]

Don't mean to fan the flames but heres a quote by Law in the Fubruary 27th Globe:

"I told Belichick I want to be a Patriot. If you guys won't give me what I deserve, let me go and prove it to you somewhere else. I have no problems with that whatsoever. I made that loud and clear all year. If I've got to go, I've got to go. I want to be here. If you care for me personally the way you say you do, pay me, and if you can't, let me go take advantage of other opportunities out there. Let me go. Let's not have it be an ugly situation like the one with Lawyer."

Maybe its just posturing but it is what he said.

Right, all he is saying is pay me my contract and don't try and get me to restructure downward. If that's what you want just release me because I'm worth what I'm getting. There's no mention of wanting a bump.

[SunDancer]

Did Vegas come up with this himself, or was it taken from somewheres? Is this chart reflected in FOF 2004 engine, and is it adjusted based on talent?

[pjstp20]

Right, all he is saying is pay me my contract and don't try and get me to restructure downward. If that's what you want just release me because I'm worth what I'm getting. There's no mention of wanting a bump.No he wants a raise and top corner money, I can post the whole article if you want me too.

By top I mean highest paid cornerback in the league.

[cthomer5000]

No he wants a raise and top corner money, I can post the whole article if you want me too.
he is being paid top corner money. He's not talking about holding out, he's just saying he won't sign a deal that means a pay cut.

The bottom line is, the Pats will be way better than the Dolphins this year.

[pjstp20]

he is being paid top corner money. He's not talking about holding out, he's just saying he won't sign a deal that means a pay cut.

The bottom line is, the Pats will be way better than the Dolphins this year.
Im begining to wonder if you're a closet Chowd

[pjstp20]

Honestly I know Law isn't gonna hold out or be traded, nor do I want it to happen. As Ive said before I want the Patsies to be as strong a team as possible when the Dolphins beat them next year. :D

[rkmsuf]

he is being paid top corner money. He's not talking about holding out, he's just saying he won't sign a deal that means a pay cut.

The bottom line is, the Pats will be way better than the Dolphins this year.

Actually after reading the article Law does want to be paid in line with Bailey and does want a raise.

He makes some good points and it comes down to if you buy his assertions he's committed to playing a long time in the league and taking care of his body. Law certainly didn't do so well last time around after signing his first landmark deal. He didn't play all the well the next year but perhaps now he's matured.

This will be tricky for Belichick but I don't see Law holding out...

[BishopMVP]

Law wants to be the highest paid player in the league and the Patriots would love to sign him for the minimum salary. But in the end, Law won't take a pay cut or hold out. The Patriots are smart to avoid this issue until next offseason, because there is always the chance of injury and also the very likely chance Law's stature will not be as high as it is now.

I also don't understand why some people say he will definitely stay this year with a $10 million figure and definitely not be on the team with a $12 million figure next year.

[pjstp20]

I dont know where you guys are getting this 9 mil figure, plus he's not a free agent again until before the 2006 season.

[SirFozzie]

Im begining to wonder if you're a closet Chowd

And I'm wondering if it's surgically possible to get your head removed from your ass.

[rkmsuf]

his cap number is 9 this year, 12 next year. That may differ from real dollars.

Who knows what Law wants. In another article 2 days later he says:

"I'm not trying to be greedy," Law said. "I'm fine with my current salary. I'm not complaining. I'm not chasing anybody's money. I'm chasing what I deserve, what's fair. I've got every right to be paid among the elite players at my position, if not defenders in the game."

Part of this stems from the Milloy thing last year.

[pjstp20]

And I'm wondering if it's surgically possible to get your head removed from your ass.
Hey calm down big fella, as far as I know were having an intelligent conversation here no one is getting angry. Why dont you learn a few new words in the dictionary and chime in.

[Desnudo]

If you guys lose Law you are not the same team I don't care what you say. Losing one good player last year (Milloy) can be overcome, but to drop three? That begins to sound like a rebuilding year.

For starters, Law isn't going anywhere next season. They have the cap flexibility to allow him to stick around. They are negotiating because they don't want to lose him in two seasons. Second, Ted Washington missed six games last season and the Patriots still were able to win. The real hurt was shown when Richard Seymour was hurt for a little while. Third, in case you missed it, Damien Woody got KO'd for the season in the first quarter of the AFC Championship game. So the vaunted Carolina D-Line got utterly dominated by a bunch of no names. The same no names that will be around next season.

If the Patriots proved anything last season it's that you don't need to rely on one or two players to make all the difference. As long as you have a Tom Brady or AJ Feeley around. Well, Tom Brady at least. :D

[cthomer5000]

Hey calm down big fella, as far as I know were having an intelligent conversation here no one is getting angry. Why dont you learn a few new words in the dictionary and chime in.
Conversation, yes. Most things you've said wouldn't come close to qualifying as intelligent. You're clearly out to paint everything the Dolphins do in the best possible light, and everything the Pats do in the worst possible light. There is zero objectively in your posts.

[jeff061]

Don't forget Colvin will be back next season. He was supposed to be the pats defensive stud last year.

[pjstp20]

Conversation, yes. Most things you've said wouldn't come close to qualifying as intelligent. You're clearly out to paint everything the Dolphins do in the best possible light, and everything the Pats do in the worst possible light. There is zero objectively in your posts.OK before you go saying such things lets make surre there are fact to back them up. If you read this thread you'll see several objective posts on my part, and if you look in any Dolphin thread you'll clearly see Ive bashed the Dolphins more than a few times. Make sure you know what you're talking about next time. If you need me to find and link them for you I will. But for starters why dont you look in the AJ Feeley thread, the Dan Marino thread and the last Moss trade rumors thread.

Most of my Patriot bashing on this thread were jokes, but since no one has a sense of humor about this feud they've been taken the wrong way.

[SirFozzie]

Hey calm down big fella, as far as I know were having an intelligent conversation here no one is getting angry. Why dont you learn a few new words in the dictionary and chime in.

I'm sure "I'm beginning to wonder if you're a closet chowd" qualifies for witty, urbane conversation where you are from.

Unfortunately, it has no such status here.

[stevew]

Value Chart
http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/6330687

Round 1 Round 2 Round 3 Round 4 Round 5 Round 6 Round 7
1 3,000 33 580 65 265 97 112 129 43 161 27 193 14.2
2 2,600 34 560 66 260 98 108 130 42 162 26.6 194 13.8
3 2,200 35 550 67 255 99 104 131 41 163 26.2 195 13.4
4 1,800 36 540 68 250 100 100 132 40 164 25.8 196 13
5 1,700 37 530 69 245 101 96 133 39.5 165 25.4 197 12.6
6 1,600 38 520 70 240 102 92 134 39 166 25 198 12.2
7 1,500 39 510 71 235 103 88 135 38.5 167 24.6 199 11.8
8 1,400 40 500 72 230 104 86 136 38 168 24.2 200 11.4
9 1,350 41 490 73 225 105 84 137 37.5 169 23.8 201 11
10 1,300 42 480 74 220 106 82 138 37 170 23.4 202 10.6
11 1,250 43 470 75 215 107 80 139 36.5 171 23 203 10.2
12 1,200 44 460 76 210 108 78 140 36 172 22.6 204 9.8
13 1,150 45 450 77 205 109 76 141 35.5 173 22.2 205 9.4
14 1,100 46 440 78 200 110 74 142 35 174 21.8 206 9
15 1,050 47 430 79 195 111 72 143 34.5 175 21.4 207 8.6
16 1,000 48 420 80 190 112 70 144 34 176 21 208 8.2
17 950 49 410 81 185 113 68 145 33.5 177 20.6 209 7.8
18 900 50 400 82 180 114 66 146 33 178 20.2 210 7.4
19 875 51 390 83 175 115 64 147 32.6 179 19.8 211 7
20 850 52 380 84 170 116 62 148 32.2 180 19.4 212 6.6
21 800 53 370 85 165 117 60 149 31.8 181 19 213 6.2
22 780 54 360 86 160 118 58 150 31.4 182 18.6 214 5.8
23 760 55 350 87 155 119 56 151 31 183 18.2 215 5.4
24 740 56 340 88 150 120 54 152 30.6 184 17.8 216 5
25 720 57 330 89 145 121 52 153 30.2 185 17.4 217 4.6
26 700 58 320 90 140 122 50 154 29.8 186 17 218 4.2
27 680 59 310 91 136 123 49 155 29.4 187 16.6 219 3.8
28 660 60 300 92 132 124 48 156 29 188 16.2 220 3.4
29 640 61 292 93 128 125 47 157 28.6 189 15.8 221 3
30 620 62 284 94 124 126 46 158 28.2 190 15.4 222 2.6
31 600 63 276 95 120 127 45 159 27.8 191 15 223 2.3
32 590 64 270 96 116 128 44 160 27.4 192 14.6 224 2

[pjstp20]

Fine I see my comments have escalated past inoccent chiding, and that some are irritated at my banter. So I'll refrain from commenting on any future Patriot threads from here on out so that we can let this go. I thought it was light hearted but I see a few of you either don't see that or do not have the same sense of humor.

[rkmsuf]

Don't forget Colvin will be back next season. He was supposed to be the pats defensive stud last year.

True but there's no gurantee what Colvin you get. A broken hip is no joke and no one will know what he's got until the pads go on. According to reports he is on schedule but who knows...

Hopefully he's retained the mobilty and explosion...

[pjstp20]

I'd also like to say that it's no secret I dislike the Patriots and why shouldn't I? I'm a Dolphin fan. It seems like its common on this board and in the general sports world to hate teams that have had past success for no good reason (Yankees, Lakers, and Cowboys) yet I'm looked at as having an unreasonable disdain.

I'm also a Yankee fan, and have been so since the late 80's so I'm not a bandwagoner. Yet I have never responded to any irrational posts from Boston fans or anyone else about their biased hatred towards them and everything they do. It just seems a little hypocritical to call me out as a troll.

[Samdari]

I'd also like to say that it's no secret I dislike the Patriots and why shouldn't I? I'm a Dolphin fan. It seems like its common on this board and in the general sports world to hate teams that have had past success for no good reason (Yankees, Lakers, and Cowboys) yet I'm looked at as having an unreasonable disdain.

I'm also a Yankee fan, and have been so since the late 80's so I'm not a bandwagoner. Yet I have never responded to any irrational posts from Boston fans or anyone else about their biased hatred towards them and everything they do. It just seems a little hypocritical to call me out as a troll.

You are looked at with such disdain because you cannot see any Patriot move as positive, nor any Dolphin move as negative.

I am a Jet fan, so I also HATE the Patriots, yet I am intelligent enough to realize that they have figured out THE way to win in the free agency era. While you thought that they had no chance to win against the Colts, Titans, Chiefs, etc. in last year's playoffs, I realized they would be expected to win any home game against any of those teams. I would root against them in any one, but realized they would probably win.

Before you start any of the "I was just trying to get a rise out of Chowd fans." excuses, realize that such baiting (besides being considered trolling) is rarely going to be considered "intelligent conversation."

Face it, you're a jackass. The sooner you realize you have a problem, the sooner you can start down the road to recovery.

[cthomer5000]

Face it, you're a jackass. The sooner you realize you have a problem, the sooner you can start down the road to recovery.
Man, there have been so golden quotes in this thread. :)

I also happen to agree with this one.

[rkmsuf]

Side note regarding the Jets...Lenny "Snyder hatin" Pasquerelli is saying CB Winfield signs with the Jets today...

[Samdari]

Side note regarding the Jets...Lenny "Snyder hatin" Pasquerelli is saying CB Winfield signs with the Jets today...

Wow, the J,J,J's get the cream of the FA CB crop. I wonder how that happened.

[pjstp20]

You are looked at with such disdain because you cannot see any Patriot move as positive, nor any Dolphin move as negative.

I am a Jet fan, so I also HATE the Patriots, yet I am intelligent enough to realize that they have figured out THE way to win in the free agency era. While you thought that they had no chance to win against the Colts, Titans, Chiefs, etc. in last year's playoffs, I realized they would be expected to win any home game against any of those teams. I would root against them in any one, but realized they would probably win.

Before you start any of the "I was just trying to get a rise out of Chowd fans." excuses, realize that such baiting (besides being considered trolling) is rarely going to be considered "intelligent conversation."

Face it, you're a jackass. The sooner you realize you have a problem, the sooner you can start down the road to recovery.I must remember what company I am with. Although some of my points may seem valid in other places. Among Jet and Patriot fans I am looked at as a jackass.

Again how can I pay your opinion any credence when you say I look at every Dolphin move as positive when I have made negative comments on every move they have made this off season?

As for the name calling, perhaps you think it shows you in a better light among those here, but I don't see it that way, to me it reveals character. Although my posts may have been annoying, I have never reduced my self to name calling and never attacked anyone personally who didn't first attack me.

Some people on this board seem to take pleasure out of trashing another and then receiving high fives in the form of agreable responses. It seems you got what you wanted, and I hope it made you feel better about yourself.

[rkmsuf]

Wow, the J,J,J's get the cream of the FA CB crop. I wonder how that happened.

Jets | Trying to Land Winfield - from www.KFFL.com
Thu, 4 Mar 2004 11:10:37 -0800

The New York Daily News reports the New York Jets have shifted their attention towards unrestricted free agent CB Antoine Winfield (Bills). Winfield was flown in at the start of the free agent period and the two sides were trying to hammer out a deal Wednesday, March 3, evening. It is believed the Jets are offering a multi-year deal averaging $5.6 million per year.

[Samdari]

As for the name calling

Name calling???

Based on your definitions, I was sure you would consider that having a little harmless fun at another's expense.

[pjstp20]

If thats your justification for it fine. I dont think any of my comments would leave someone to believe that personal attacks were harmless fun.

[Samdari]

Although some of my points may seem valid in other places

Which points are those?

The point that the Patriots OL would be devastated by the loss of a player who harldly played as they won the Super Bowl?

The point that the Patriots were clearly inferior to the 14 of so straight teams they beat?

The point that the Pats would suck by losing Ty Law, who wanted to hold out for more money, when all he did was reject a pay cut?

Seriously, can you even point to one point about the Patriots that would hold up to objective scrutiny? You should not cry about bieng so persecuted when you make ridiculous posts designed solely to bait. Not one of your posts about the Patriots is remotely grounded at all in reality, and they all end up predicting that the Pats will suck.

[pjstp20]

Alright I challenge you right now to find the following quotes:

1.)Where did I use the word "devestated" to describe the Pats line if they lose Woody

2.)Where I described the Patriots as "inferior" to all 14 teams they beat

3.)Where did I use the word "suck" to describe the Patriots without Ty Law

After failing to do this it will clearly point out that you are greatly overexaggerating the situatiuon, and are therefore making yourself no more objective in poiting out my flaws, then I am commenting about the Patriots. Therefore, making yourself a hypocrite.

[Desnudo]

I'd also like to say that it's no secret I dislike the Patriots and why shouldn't I? I'm a Dolphin fan. It seems like its common on this board and in the general sports world to hate teams that have had past success for no good reason (Yankees, Lakers, and Cowboys) yet I'm looked at as having an unreasonable disdain.

I'm also a Yankee fan, and have been so since the late 80's so I'm not a bandwagoner. Yet I have never responded to any irrational posts from Boston fans or anyone else about their biased hatred towards them and everything they do. It just seems a little hypocritical to call me out as a troll.

Are you from New York? Otherwise I'm afraid you auto-qualify as a bandwagoner. I forget who wrote it, famous sportswriter, but they said rooting for the Yankees if you're not from New York is like rooting for the house in blackjack. It's not like they suddenly got good in the 90's.

[Desnudo]

I must remember what company I am with. Although some of my points may seem valid in other places. Among Jet and Patriot fans I am looked at as a jackass.

Again how can I pay your opinion any credence when you say I look at every Dolphin move as positive when I have made negative comments on every move they have made this off season?

As for the name calling, perhaps you think it shows you in a better light among those here, but I don't see it that way, to me it reveals character. Although my posts may have been annoying, I have never reduced my self to name calling and never attacked anyone personally who didn't first attack me.

Some people on this board seem to take pleasure out of trashing another and then receiving high fives in the form of agreable responses. It seems you got what you wanted, and I hope it made you feel better about yourself.

I don't find anything annoying about your posts (except that they're completely wrong and misguided). ;) Let's all take a deep breath and come to agreement that the Dolphins suck and the Patriots rule!

[pjstp20]

As for points that would be viewed as valid if said in a different forum:

Damien Woody and Ted Washington were intrical in beating the Dolphins in November. These losses (Woody more than Washington) were meet with indifference here. I think they are a bit more than replaceable. We can debate on and on about that, but none the less it is a point with some validity.

[pjstp20]

Are you from New York? Otherwise I'm afraid you auto-qualify as a bandwagoner. I forget who wrote it, famous sportswriter, but they said rooting for the Yankees if you're not from New York is like rooting for the house in blackjack. It's not like they suddenly got good in the 90's.
I am not from New York, I was born and raised in Florida. My Dad was however, and he and I would route for the Yankees. We would see them play often when they came to my hometown for spring training. I was a bigger fan during their lean years, and because of their recent success, and some personal reasons (my fathers passing), I don't route for them quite as avidly. I don't want to be seen as a bandwagoner. They are still the one team in baseball I route for just not as intensely.

I dont buy into the fact that the only way you can route for a team is because your either from or live there, because it's just sports. There are a host of reason one routes for a team, the memories of me and my father watching them play is mine. Nothing binds you to a team aside from the fact that you stay with them through think and thin and don't switch when times get tough. Doing that is what makes you a bandwagoner.

Rick Reily wrote that column I think.

[JAG]

How do you know that Patriots backups plugged in for Woddy and Washington wouldn't have led to a win for the Patriots in their game against the Dolphins? I'm curious how you think they were integral in beating the Dolphins so much that their replacements would have led to a Dolphins win. The Patriots have shown they can fend off the best DL in the league without Woody, so I think that leads some credence into thinking they can survive without him. Washington, again, perhaps not, but they have a lot of resources available to try and get a comparable player with money under the cap and draft picks, not to mention address other weaknesses on their team. So I personally don't feel your point is very valid. This is not like the team losing Seymour, Brady, and Law.

[JAG]

I dont buy into the fact that the only way you can route for a team is because your either from or live there, because it's just sports. There are a host of reason one routes for a team, the memories of me and my father watching them play is mine. Nothing binds you to a team aside from the fact that you stay with them through think and thin and don't switch when times get tough. Doing that is what makes you a bandwagoner.

I do agree with this however. It's easier to say that growing up in Vermont where there are no major professional sports teams. I've stuck with my goofy hodge-podge of teams for almost 20 years, through more thin than thick.

[pjstp20]

How do you know that Patriots backups plugged in for Woddy and Washington wouldn't have led to a win for the Patriots in their game against the Dolphins? I'm curious how you think they were integral in beating the Dolphins so much that their replacements would have led to a Dolphins win. The Patriots have shown they can fend off the best DL in the league without Woody, so I think that leads some credence into thinking they can survive without him. Washington, again, perhaps not, but they have a lot of resources available to try and get a comparable player with money under the cap and draft picks, not to mention address other weaknesses on their team. So I personally don't feel your point is very valid. This is not like the team losing Seymour, Brady, and Law.My only reason in bringing it up again was to state that some of my points would be valid to unbiased eyes.

But if you want a respone, losing those guys for a game or two and not having them at all are two differnet things. Now can their eventual replacements play just as well as they did? Perhaps, only time will tell. The fact is those are two good players who are getting paid for a reason.

[Samdari]

Damien Woody and Ted Washington were intrical in beating the Dolphins in November.

This would not be considered valid reasoning because:

(1) The Dolphins and Patriots did not play in November.

(2) Intrical is not a word.

[pjstp20]

The more you point out frivolus things in order to bait me the more you look like the troll.

If you think the date of the game and the mispelling of the word integral were the point of the post then your sorely mistaken.

Why not post to the fact that I'm desputing your claims on the validity of my points in this thread? That would make you look more intelligent then what you posted, because thats obviously what your going for right? Trying to make yourself look smarter than me. At least that was the point of your last post.

[Samdari]

Why not post to the fact that I'm desputing your claims on the validity of my points in this thread?

Because you have proven time and time again that no matter how much evidence to the contrary is shown to you, you will claim the ideas in your fantasy world are real, and what is happening in the real world is something the resf of us are imagining.

[pjstp20]

I see you and your Jet friend cthomer have presented no evidence to back up either of your arguments. You two are quick to paint someone into a corner based on your facts, but when reality is presented, you are silent.

[KevinNU7]

pjtps20 you can not tell someone they shouldn't troll when you in this very thread told people you were just making certain statements jsut to get a rise out of them

[SirFozzie]

There's no reasoning with him, Kevin, apparently pjstp20 has found some new substance that is completely impervious to logic.

One key sign of a troll is that he tries to tell others that THEY are attempting to troll Him.

(of course, that's perfectly circular, but I think y'all get the point)

[Samdari]

I see you and your Jet friend cthomer have presented no evidence to back up either of your arguments. You two are quick to paint someone into a corner based on your facts, but when reality is presented, you are silent.

What 'facts' are you talking about?

Are you seriously saying that towards the end of last season, you did not tell everyone that the Chiefs, Titans, Colts and probably several other teams I am forgetting were better than the Patriots? The opposite of better than is 'inferior to' Just because you did not use the exact words I used does not mean you did not say something. Unless you do not understand what most English words mean, which appears to be the case.

That you did not claim in this thread that the Tom Brady's success depended on having a line with Damien Woody in it? They played most of the playoffs with him ineffective due to injury.

That you have completely mischaracterized the situation with Ty Law? You have him all but gone from the Patriots. The reality is that it is 99% certain that he will play for them next year, the rest is just posturing.

[pjstp20]

Ive asked to point out posts that say the things you think Ive said, and you havent documented anything. You both seemed to think Id never say a bad thing about the Dolphins, but Ive said plenty.

You also said I havent brought up one valid point, where I showed you that I have.

KevinNU7: I can take any insult on the teams I root for but to insult me personally is a bit different dont you think?

[Samdari]

You also said I havent brought up one valid point, where I showed you that I have.

Only in your own mind, oh delusional one.

[pjstp20]

What 'facts' are you talking about?

Are you seriously saying that towards the end of last season, you did not tell everyone that the Chiefs, Titans, Colts and probably several other teams I am forgetting were better than the Patriots? The opposite of better than is 'inferior to' Just because you did not use the exact words I used does not mean you did not say something. Unless you do not understand what most English words mean, which appears to be the case.

That you did not claim in this thread that the Tom Brady's success depended on having a line with Damien Woody in it? They played most of the playoffs with him ineffective due to injury.

That you have completely mischaracterized the situation with Ty Law? You have him all but gone from the Patriots. The reality is that it is 99% certain that he will play for them next year, the rest is just posturing.
Find the quotes that say these things then. Prove your point with more than what you remember off the top of your head. I did say I thought a few teams were better than the Patriots, but not every team that they had beaten. I did say any loss to the starting 5 lineman was more than a little concerning. There is a difference.

[pjstp20]

There's no reasoning with him, Kevin, apparently pjstp20 has found some new substance that is completely impervious to logic.

One key sign of a troll is that he tries to tell others that THEY are attempting to troll Him.

(of course, that's perfectly circular, but I think y'all get the point)
On the contrary, I think Im a very reasonable person, none of this would be where it is, if you Samdari, and cthomer hadnt made your malicious comments. Just read it, everything was civil until you three decided to attack me personally.

[KevinNU7]

KevinNU7: I can take any insult on the teams I root for but to insult me personally is a bit different dont you think? Trolling is trolling no matter what you are trolling about

[Desnudo]

I am not from New York, I was born and raised in Florida. My Dad was however, and he and I would route for the Yankees. We would see them play often when they came to my hometown for spring training. I was a bigger fan during their lean years, and because of their recent success, and some personal reasons (my fathers passing), I don't route for them quite as avidly. I don't want to be seen as a bandwagoner. They are still the one team in baseball I route for just not as intensely.

I dont buy into the fact that the only way you can route for a team is because your either from or live there, because it's just sports. There are a host of reason one routes for a team, the memories of me and my father watching them play is mine. Nothing binds you to a team aside from the fact that you stay with them through think and thin and don't switch when times get tough. Doing that is what makes you a bandwagoner.

Rick Reily wrote that column I think.

Now it makes sense. I wouldn't consider you a bandwagoner based on that story. But I didn't know that from your original post. I still stand by Rick Reily's column though. Unless you're from North Dakota or some other place without a pro team. As an example, I find it annoying watching a football game with some person who's from, say Maryland, but is a Broncos fan for no logical reason and always has been, through thick and thin. And for some reason it's always the annoying teams, aka the Yankees, Cowboys, Broncos, Raiders, etc.. If this person was a lifelong Saints fan I'd just giggle.

As for the other post, being from Vermont it's your duty to root for teams from Boston, especially the Red Sox.

[ozias]

pjstp20

Here is a quote from the Boston Herald about how the Pats did with and without Big Ted in the lineup.

" If there are any positives to point to, it's that the Pats survived well without Washington (broken leg) in the lineup last season.

In the seven games Washington missed, (including the Jets in Week 3, when he suffered the fracture in the first quarter), the Pats went 6-1 and allowed an average of 89.3 rushing yards per game.

In the 12 games Washington was in the lineup (including the playoffs), the Pats went 11-1 and gave up an average of 91.1 rushing yards per game.

The Pats allowed their only 100-yard rusher (Denver's Clinton Portis in Week 9) with Washington on the sidelines. "

The whole article is here http://patriots.bostonherald.com/patriots/view.bg?articleid=664

The Pats can live without Washington....they have Ty Warren from last years draft, Jarvis Green from 2 years ago, Richard Seymour, and may re-sign Bobby Hamilton. They also have Willie McGinest who can play DE or LB who has been used in both roles for the past few years.

Losing Damien Woody won't hurt as much as some people think and I think that goes with the way the Charlie Wies calls plays, most are short quick passes, and some runs sprinkled in. Antowain Smith had 182 carries with 642 yards, while Kevin Faulk had 178 with 638, and Mike Cloud had 27 for 118, so between the top 3 rushers on the Patriots roster they had 387 carries and 1398 yards(they did have a total of 1607 from all players). So with the top 3 they averaged a good 3.6 yards per carry, and that was with Damien Woody.

Now during the post season(I know there are not as many games) A. Smith and K. Faulk carried the ball 78 times for 324 yards, which is a 4.1 yards per carry. So without Woody in the lineup they averaged a half yard more per carry. This is why losing Woody won't hurt the Patriots that much.

As far as the Ty Law stuff....he isn't going anywhere, unless Belichick decides he is not worth what they are paying him....they are only trying to free up cap room but can live with Laws contract the way it is. Next season, Laws' last under his current deal, either Law will renegotiate or Belichick will either trade him, or cut him. Belichick won't overpay for players. The deal Law has right now was signed before Belichick came to NE(If I remeber correctly). But as is stands now Law will be in NE this season.

If they did lose Law, they have Assante Samuel and Eugene Wilson(he is really a corner but the Pats needed someone at safety), along with Tyrone Poole. So, yes they lose a great shutdown corner, but with the play of Wilson, same style of play as Law, he could go to the corner spot and then the Pats could draft a safety.

But I don't believe Law is going any where for now.

edited--spelling errors

[JAG]

As for the other post, being from Vermont it's your duty to root for teams from Boston, especially the Red Sox.

Ah, my duty. I was poorly taught when I was 5 years old.

[pjstp20]

Ozias: If you look at it that way those losses don't appear too serious, but will those players (the replacements) be able to sustain that level of performance throughout a season? Only time will tell. Woddy and Washington played when they were healthy for a reason. The coaching staff thought they were better than the back ups. If anything is sure it is that the Pats have "some" question marks going into the season. I don't think they have the East locked up, but that is only my opinion. I don't think the Patriots will suck either, as long as Belichick, the same front office and Brady are there they will always be a threat to compete for the division.

I would love to discuss the off season and in season with any Patriot fans and I hope that I can do so. If anything good can come from this thread its this: some things intended to be humourous are not seen as such through this format, so I will take care saying some things in the future. However you can be sure that I will never attack anyone personally and hope that you can respect me in the same manner. If you can't just put me on your ignore list, its that simple. Hopefully those who thought it would be funny to do such things have seen the error of their ways as well. Because some of the things said were really shitty and I wouldnt want to see it done to anyone else.

[JAG]

pj, compare the questions of losing a 35-yr-old NT and an OG versus the questions the Dolphins have at QB, WR (outside of Chambers), OL, secondary, maybe DT, or the questions the Jets have at LB, OL, WR (outside of Moss), safety, or the questions Buffalo has pretty much everywhere except RB. The Patriots' problems compared to these teams are very small. And the Patriots have more draft ammunition and cap space than the other teams in their division. Barring catastrophic injuries to New England (meaning to Brady mainly), I would be absolutely shocked to see New England not win the division. In fact, I'd call that a more sure thing than any other division race in the league.

[pjstp20]

Thats all very true, we'll just have to see what happens. However, I'm not ready to hand the Patriots anything, they'll have to earn it on the field.

[jeff061]

I think the main problem is New England fans just are not used to having a team other people are jealous of :D. This is New England for christ sakes, we are miserable people!! We don't have teams other organizations strive to be like!! What alternate dimension is this??

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Wow! Some of you Pats fans are taking things a little too seriously. Pj has a history, we've seen it, and I would agree some of things he said were clearly in jest and meant to get a rise, which he certainly did! I would like to see him stick around, though, so we can stick it to him and the Dolphins (AJ Feeley for god's sake). We are going to have a blast all season long watching the Dolphins go right down the tube. For instance, can you believe that 1/2 of the Dolphins cap is tied up in Taylor, Thomas, Madison, Seau, and one other old codger.

You all are forgetting that we are the Champs. Pj's pokes smack of jealousy, and you know what they say about jealousy.

As for the lost players. Washington: no big deal (old, too much money, I for one was not all that impressed with him, because when he was gone, they did fine); Woody (he is good, but not great and not worth the money he wants); Law is going nowhere for now and likes it in Boston. Pj's mistake is focusing on who they have lost. The next few months will show who they gain (draft picks, middle level FAs) and that is what counts.

Now for the draft, We gots to get an RB, don't we? Let's trade up!!!

Finally, after 2 Superbowl wins, I pose this question. Should we have drafted Richard Seymour over Deuce McAllister, when we had a shot at him? My answer is yes (obviously we won two SBs with him and he stopped the Raiders on third and one in the snowbowl, which led to the win), but it is a close one. But my question is if we could swap NOW, would you do it?

[Desnudo]

Ah, my duty. I was poorly taught when I was 5 years old.

Yes, yes, that's all in the past now. Go buy a Nomar jersey and all will be well.

[Desnudo]

I think the main problem is New England fans just are not used to having a team other people are jealous of :D. This is New England for christ sakes, we are miserable people!! We don't have teams other organizations strive to be like!! What alternate dimension is this??

The alternate dimension where Dan Shaughnessy grudgingly writes positive and optimistic, albeit still very sarcastic, articles about one out of four of the Boston sports teams. I think the Devil must be eagerly counting on claiming his soul soon.

[pjstp20]

Wow! Some of you Pats fans are taking things a little too seriously. Pj has a history, we've seen it, and I would agree some of things he said were clearly in jest and meant to get a rise, which he certainly did!
Haha, what a strange turn of events. V4Prez giving me an ounce of sympathy, my biggest Pat rival? :D Well, it's greatly appreciated, I got my ass torched today. I've made no secret of my jealousy of the Pats, so I guess I can't argue with you there. Funny how Pat fans (-Sir Fozzie) were actually the more cordial of the group. I guess you guys are used to me by now.

Don't worry when the Dolphins bash the Pats I'll be as loud and obnoxious as ever.

[pjstp20]

Unless you do not understand what most English words mean, which appears to be the case.
Somehow I missed this comment. I must admit I really had a problem with your comments yesterday and am having a hard time realizing what I did to you to make you attack my person so vehemently. Your such a dick Its beyond words to describe, but as you think, it's probably beyond my apptitude to construct these thoughts to text. Your pissant little comments make me break even my own rules of integrity, maybe I'll regret it later but now it feels right to call you out for the ass that you are.

[SirFozzie]

just when you were getting close to pulling yourself out of the hole..
pj thinks:
"Aw hell, the hole's not deep enough anyway" and goes to diggin himslef a DEEPER hole."

You get what you give, Fins Fanatic (and that's a good thing, not an insult), you're just mad we called you on your idiotic comments.

Remember the story about the Boy who Cried Wolf?

You're the boy who cried Pats Decline.

We had to listen to you running your mouth all of the season about how the Pats were just a bunch of lucky (cheating) bastards, and that NEXT WEEK's game would surely show them for the frauds they are. Never did happen, did it? THat's ok.. you'll just run your mouth some more in the offseason, because the Pats can't WIN the offseason to shut you up.

I think the Pats are pretty much favorites to win the AFC East (I look at the other teams in the AFC East, and mannnn.. there are teams spinning their wheels). Do I think we should all make reservations for Super Bowl 39? hell no, you earn that on the field. We're just saying the key pieces are there to give us a chance to do it again.

Miami's trying to make moves to improve themselves. But I don't consider AJ Feeley an improvement, and would that Moss trade just cripple the Dolphins at the benefit of right now. But at least they are TRYING to do something. Compared to the Jets and the Bills who are about to mash their feet on the gas pedal only to realize they left the gearbox in reverse....

[Samdari]

Compared to the Jets and the Bills who are about to mash their feet on the gas pedal only to realize they left the gearbox in reverse....

How so? I think they are both making some positive moves. The Jets shuffling their LB corps seems to be an improvement, and getting Winfield could still be a coup (if it happens, grrr).

[Honolulu_Blue]

Enough of this pissing around about Woody and the Dolphins. The thread has come full-circle.

Woody's a Lion.

Press conference scheduled for 1:00 p.m. this afternoon. Looks like the Lions signed Fernando Bryant as well.

[cthomer5000]

The perfect ending to this thread. :D

[WSUCougar]

Call in Airhog for the thread-kill...

[KevinNU7]

I love this thread

[pjstp20]

Oh yeah, thanks for reminding me.

The Broncos, Chiefs, Titans, and Colts are better than the Patriots, and the Dolphins will sweep them this year.

[JAG]

Yes, yes, that's all in the past now. Go buy a Nomar jersey and all will be well.

Glad I never got that Nomar jersey after all. :)

[SirFozzie]

Can someone smack pj's computer for me.. his posting is a broken record :D

[Desnudo]

Glad I never got that Nomar jersey after all. :)

You ignored your duty? Go buy a Cabrera jersey immediately!

[Desnudo]

Dola

You know your team has made it when everyone else hates them. I love it. : )

[gstelmack]

Oh yeah, thanks for reminding me.

The Broncos, Chiefs, Titans, and Colts are better than the Patriots, and the Dolphins will sweep them this year.
Yup, the Colts were -3 points better than the Patriots.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Oh yeah, thanks for reminding me.

The Broncos, Chiefs, Titans, and Colts are better than the Patriots, and the Dolphins will sweep them this year.

Pj, I am sure we just heard from you a few days ago that you were ditching this board, but you still keep showing up within hours of people posting on the Pats or Dolphins.

Face it, it's a fix that you can't get enough of.

[pjstp20]

I think your obsessed with me, half of your posts are talking to or about me, Let me know if I need to hire security.

[rkmsuf]

I think your obsessed with me, half of your posts are talking to or about me, Let me know if I need to hire security.

Ricky Williams might be available for that. He's a pretty big guy.


*ducks*

*runs away*

[Vinatieri for Prez]

pj, that time it was just 38 minutes. When are outta here, anyway?

[pjstp20]

Ehhhhh, I changed my mind. I don't want to miss it when the Dolphins beat the Pats.

Don't know why it matters to you so much anyway. Your obsession with me is quite disturbing. I think were well over 2hrs this time buddy.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

I kind of figured. That's great. I already got my whipping stick out for tomorrow!