College Years/FOF combined careers

[kserra]

I'm getting ready to start up my first combined career with TCY and FOF...

Haven't really touched TCY for quite a while...

I was curious as to how you guys have proceeded with these type of careers...what type of setups do you follow...any advice or tips for me...I'm experienced with both games, but I know there are many of you who have spent more time with them, so I value your views. Thanks.

Kevin

[QuikSand]

I think this is an area where there is a LOT left to be desired in the two games. TCY was never really my cup of tea - I have played several careers, and have certanly gotten my money's worth from it and then some... but I really prefer the sort of decision-making i the pro game a lot better. However, the allure of playing connected careers in the two game is really strong, in my opinion -- the concept is very tantalizing.

The fact that there simply don't seem tobe too many people playing the games this way speaks volumes, I think. The relative unpredictability of quality college players coming into the professional draft files is a really weak link. Yes, we know that there are so many good players in college that some of them have to stink as pro prospects... the math tells us that much. But the appearance of so many quality pro prospects who were basically non-factors in the TCY college universe is a bit of a thorn.

The times I have played (including a career using FOF 2004 5.0c) I have simply found myself limping through the TCY side, and knowing that there would be only a distant connection between the two game universes. I couldn't look at the star players in college and have any sense that they would become familiar pro players, or even top draft picks. And I certainly couldn't look at teh best players from my TCY team and have any particular sense that they would be worth a damn in the pro game. With those links simply not evident, it was close to pointless to keep using TCY draft files... and I gave up that end of my career (which still continues in FOF, incidentally, after more than 20 seasons).

I realize this might boil down to a "realism" versus "enjoyability" debate, in part. I have probably even defended the current TCY-to-FOF transition as being fairly realistic in the past -- and I think that is true, to a point. We all know of high profile examples of great college football players who were never regarded as serious pro prospects. And certainly some cases of the reverse.

But I think in the name of playability, of user enjoyment, the link would be better if it were strengthened an awful lot. The top draft picks in every draft simply ought to come from among the top performers in college -- yes, there should be variance, but it simply doesn't make sense to have players who sat on the bench for three years in college and then got kicked out of school for failing grades suddenly show up as the prize picks in the NFL draft, while standout multi-year starters from the same level of competition look like total throwaways on a regular basis. I think a significant chnage in this game element... even at the detriment of "realism" would be a great boon to those who want to play these two games in a coordinated fashion.


So, kserra, on your initial question -- good luck. I don't have any real tips for particular success in the games played together, but hope that you find more enjoyment than I and many others seem to have.

[kserra]

Nice post. Thanks, gave me a lot to think about. I am really eager to get into an immersive game right now...I think I'll still give it a shot using the combo approach for now...I think I will track where the All Americans end up getting drafted for the first couple of seasons before really throwing myself into the fire...

I'm sure you, among others, have done extensive research regarding draft status and college performances...I remember reading of the apparant inconsistencies that many were finding, which is what originally gave me pause when considering a combo career...

Thanks again for the good post...

Kevin

[Honolulu_Blue]

I know it's an apples to oranges comparison, but I have done this sort of combined career on the Play Station 2 with NCAA and Madden. (Never have done it with TCY and FOF, because, like QS, I just never got into TCY. Actually, I never got through one season of it. Just didn't like it for whatever reason at the time and have never been tempted to go back).

In the NCAA/Madden career (statistical craziness aside for both games), I thought the continuity aspect was just about right. For a few years (because I was bored and had a major case of "NFL Draft Fever"), I would go through and sort the top seniors/juniors in NCAA. I would write down the names, position, school, and overall rating of, say, the top 35-40 players and also do the same for the top 5 for each position and then record the final voting for Heisman trophy and top offensive and defensive players.

For the most part, the college overall rating matched the player's comparative initial rating in Madden. Say, a 99 in NCAA would end up usually being a player rated somewhere between 70-80. The players with high speed would tend to be faster, etc. I found, for the most part, high ratings in NCAA would equal high ratings in Madden. Performance was another issue. The award winners didn't always have the highest ratings and, would therefore, not always end up being all that great in Madden (granted, there is good precedent for this in real life). The issue, of course, came to development because of the screwy Madden development system.

Over all, though, I found it pretty rewarding to run a joint career between the two games. NCAA had enough impact in Madden to make it worth while. At least for a period of time.

[QuikSand]

For the most part, the college overall rating matched the player's comparative initial rating in Madden. Say, a 99 in NCAA would end up usually being a player rated somewhere between 70-80. The players with high speed would tend to be faster, etc. I found, for the most part, high ratings in NCAA would equal high ratings in Madden. Performance was another issue. The award winners didn't always have the highest ratings and, would therefore, not always end up being all that great in Madden (granted, there is good precedent for this in real life). The issue, of course, came to development because of the screwy Madden development system.

I think there is a two-part issue here - one where TCY/FOF does very well, and one where it doesn't.

The general nature of players sent into FOF from TCY does indeed retain the same basic character of the player in TCY. If he was a receiver with great speed in TCY, then you can expect that his speed-related ratings in FOF will be among his strengths. If he was more of a possession player, then that's what he will be in the FOF draft, in nearly all cases. That correlation makes a lot of sense, and seems to apply to most positions pretty well.

The failure seems to be in overall talent projections. Your receiver who was rated 80+ in practically everything in college, and was an all-americna standout performer -- he has a very solid chance of translating in your NFL draft as a modest, margibnal prospect - a guy with ratings in the 10-20-30 range at best. That happens all the time. His relative strengths and weaknesses would probably still be reflected... but having top potential ratings of 30 instead of 10 is a lot different than having 80 instead of 50.

I think the biggest issue that undermines this is that in the college game, there are an awful lot of players who have practically maxed-out potential ratings. Even on my marginal teams, I am used to graduating maybe three or four players whose ability scores (yes, according to my scout, who might be making some error) are at or near perfection. And since there's evidence that the player's pro potential is either largely or wholly based on potential ratings from TCY (rather than current ratings), this means that the universe of players who end their college careers with outstanding skill sets is very, very large. Therefore, these players HAVE to be whittled down somehow -- you just can't have 20 star-caliber receivers in every pro draft, or it becomes pointless. And it's this process of reducing the overall high-quality talent pool where things seem to go astray -- that the highly-rated player universe seems to get scattered all over the place, everyhere from top-grade prospect to bottom-tier nobody.

[kserra]

Having no idea in terms of programing...

Would it be possible for Jim to program in some reference to a player's STATS in accordance to what level of college ball he played in...perhaps to help sort out which of those "top 20 receivers" in college should be allowed or expected to retain much of their talent at the next level?

To be honest, I'm having more fun talking about this than actually playing the game...and like you guys, I just never really liked TCY...it just never grew on me, no matter how many times I tried to take the Eastern Michigan HURONS to the top of college football...

Please, continue discussing...I've got nothing else to do today...oh, I mean, I've got some very important lessons to plan and papers to grade... :)

Kevin

[Vegas Vic]

The guy who is a superstar in college and doesn't translate to the professional game happens occasionally in real life, and the game certainly emulates this.

My beef with the TCY/FOF translation is the multitude of players who were marginal starters in college and end up being first or second round draft picks in college. This never happens in real life, but it's very common in TCY/FOF.

[MizzouRah]

The times I have played (including a career using FOF 2004 5.0c) I have simply found myself limping through the TCY side, and knowing that there would be only a distant connection between the two game universes. I couldn't look at the star players in college and have any sense that they would become familiar pro players, or even top draft picks. And I certainly couldn't look at teh best players from my TCY team and have any particular sense that they would be worth a damn in the pro game. With those links simply not evident, it was close to pointless to keep using TCY draft files... and I gave up that end of my career (which still continues in FOF, incidentally, after more than 20 seasons).


That about sums up why I quit using the two in conjunction. Not to mention I've found the FOF2k4 generates a much better 'overall' draft class.


Todd

[gstelmack]

My beef with the TCY/FOF translation is the multitude of players who were marginal starters in college and end up being first or second round draft picks in college. This never happens in real life, but it's very common in TCY/FOF.
I wonder if this will happen so much as players figure out the draft process. During the drafting strategy discussion, "% developed" is considered one of the important indicators of future success. How many of the 1st/2nd round draftees that did not play much in college end up busting? I'm thinking that as players start putting more weight on "% developed", more of the solid college starters will be picked higher.

Assuming, of course, "% developed" in TCY translates into "% developed" in FOF. I have not tested or verified.

[Grid Iron]

I don't mind if a great college player has awful FOF2K4 rankings. My biggest complaint is, as QS stated, the unusually high appearance of pro players that were non-factors in TCY.

For example, I imported a TCY draft into FOF2K4 and decided to see how the top draft prospect, a QB, did in college.

I was shocked (and never used a TCY draft file again), when I found out he was the backup QB at Ohio State his entire college career and never played in a single game.

Things like that suck the reality out of FOF2004, and prevents any credible connection between the two universes.

[kserra]

Someone may have done a study on this, I'm sure...

Has anyone followed the All-American class of one TCY year into FOF for that class's entire career...what were the findings...how similar were those findings to "real life", etc...

Here is CNNSI.com's 2002 All-Americans...

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/college/2002/all_americans/

QB-Palmer
RB-Johnson (PSU)
RB-McGahee
WR-Rogers
WR-Woods (OSU)
TE-Clark
OL-Romberg
OL-Gross
OL-Manuwai
OL-Nelson
OL-Andrews

That's just the offense...the defense appears similar...these guys appear to be 1st to 3rd round picks...some the year of the award, others after a year or two more of college...

Yet, we see with the 2nd team that QB-Banks of Iowa isn't a pro prospect, despite great skills in college, they just didn't translate to the pros...but almost all of these guys can expect to be taken on the first day of the draft...

How is real life compared to TCY to FOF transition?

Kevin

[kserra]

I was shocked (and never used a TCY draft file again), when I found out he was the backup QB at Ohio State his entire college career and never played in a single game.

Things like that suck the reality out of FOF2004, and prevents any credible connection between the two universes.

That does suck...is this rare, or do we often see backups emerging as top prospects?

If this happened once in a while, I think it would be a neat feature...similar to a Miami RB situation in which you have perhaps three NFL caliber players on the same team...

But if it happens often, especially at lesser schools, this would seem to be a huge problem...

Kevin

[Plundun]

Well I have examined the relationship between players in TCY and FOF. Over a long period of years I tried to look at the college careers of the players selected in the pro bowl.

On the positive side I ran through two FOF careers with the same TCY file, and many of the top players would be the same. The game doesn't seem to completely randomly determine who is going to be top prospects and who won't, there is some sort of logic behind it.

The top determinant is the HS rank of a player. Most of the players selected in the pro bowl will be top 100-200 HS recruits. Pro-bowl players with a rank below 300 coming out of HS are rare. The aforementioned back up college QB who becomes a NFL star will have been a top recruit. My guess is that the FOF determines the TCY prospect not by the "earned" red bars but by the potential green bars. The consequence of this is that the college production is completely irrelevant to the pro potential of a player.

Another problem is the fact that underclassmen in the draft seems to have a better chance of becoming pro studs than the graduating senior. But the later versions of TCY removed the possibility that a star player declared early for the draft. The only players who leave early now are the academic drop-outs and the players disgruntled with their playing time.
This is made worse by the fact that the top HS talent aren't distributed very well in TCY. The top programs will year after year get the highest ranked players, which means that a lot of top recruits won't see any playing time.
But when the college development doesn't play any part and the underclassmen have a better chance of being NFL-prospects you get the overrepresentation of academic drop-outs or other players with no college career to speak of in the upper echelon of NFL players.

The solution as I see it(if any of this is in fact true) is to remove the "bonus" to the underclassmen as it currently benefits the wrong players and to only determine the FOF ratings by a college players red bars. That would tremendously enhance the realism of the universe.

[Vegas Vic]

The consequence of this is that the college production is completely irrelevant to the pro potential of a player.

I can vouch for that. In my play, I saw several instances of QB's taken in the 1st round who never even took one snap in college.

[OldGiants]

I agree with the conclusion that TCY draft import files and TCY careers don't translate well into FOF, but my reasons seem to be quite different from what has been stated above.

A good bit of my comments appear in the strategy section in (what seem like) long ago posts, so I'll summarize my impressions:

1) HS all-americas in TCY don't really pan out as All-american, or often starters, in TCY. The same goes for FOF all-americas going into TCY. I wanted to track HS all-americas going into FOF, and after 12 seasons, had less than 6. A real disapointment.

2) The "did not play, zero stats across the board" high-combine score players pop up all too often in TCY import files. These players are high on the draft board and did not play in the final year of their TCY career due to injuty, flunking out, or simply having a better player start ahead of them. Too many of these guys.

3) If you draft while having TCY open in another window, the draft is all too simple. This is because the scouting 'mask' (as QS has described it eloquently on many occasins) is now taken away. In short, if a player was 'yellow' (that is current value of 80+) at the end of his TCY career, and he's still there in round 5, HE'S THE SLEEPER!

Similarly, if a player is rated highly by the combine, but has a TCY value under 80 (red talent) he's the bust waiting to happen.

That was enough to kill TCY/FOF for me.